Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 1 year ago

Why you can't afford to skip customer discovery w/ Yossuf Albanawi


We can’t always choose where we come from, but we sure can drive the bus to our chosen destination!

Personal experience with a product or solution that your startup is addressing is a bonus - but as Yossuf Albanawi explains, it’s not always enough. 

Personal experience paired with customer discovery, however, can be the key to not only creating a viable product but also uncovering your competitive advantage.

It might be tempting to take a shortcut to avoid paying a toll, but in the long run, the quickest route between where you are now and where you want to be is a straight line.

So, don’t skip customer discovery!

In this episode, Yossuf sheds all pretense to bring our listeners a candid and engaging episode that highlights the power of the human spirit - and the passion that drives success. 

Here are the show highlights:

  • How firsthand experience can be the fuel that drives your startup forward. (1:53)
  • Why product-market fit and customer discovery work hand-in-hand. (4:14)
  • When customer discovery can open up the path to a more viable product. (6:20)
  • Beware the pitfalls of taking shortcuts! (8:20) 
  • 4 steps to help you discover your competitive advantage. (12:17)
  • Sometimes gut feelings and intuition have a lot to say - are you listening? (14:42)
  • Finding the hidden value in hardship (18:40)

Guest Bio

Yossuf Albanawi is CEO and Co-Founder of Pilleve, a digital health company focused on improving medication safety.

Personal experience drives Yossuf’s passion to find solutions for real-world problems, specifically in the areas of mental health and reducing the risk of addiction.

Yossuf earned a Bachelor’s Degree and certification in Project Management from Wake Forest University in North Carolina.

If you’d like to reach out to Yossuf you can follow him on LinkedIn at Yossuf Albanawi or, for more information on Pilleve and their mission, visit their website at

Welcome to Coiq, where you learnhow health innovators maximize their success. I'm your host, Dr Roxy, founderof Legacy DNA and international bestselling author of how health innovators maximize market success.Through handed conversations with health innovators, earlier, doctors and influencers, you'll learn howto bring your innovation from idea to start ups to market domination. Andnow let's jump into the latest episode of Coiq. Welcome back coiq listeners.On today's episode I have Usef Albu Nawi with me. He is the CEOand Co founder of Pleiave usef welcome to the show. Good Morning, DrRox, and thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here andreally excited to dive into it. Awesome. I'm glad to have you here aswell. So I always like to start off with giving you an opportunityto share a little bit about your background and what you've been innovating these days, so we can kind of give some context for our conversation today. Thankyou. Yeah, so, as you said on the on, the cofounderand CEO of Pleave, which is digital health solution focused on improving medication safety, and our first solution is a system that consists of a smart, securepill battle and mobile out and the dashboard that help prevent opiot abuse and addiction. And so we're a three year old company and right now are beginning tocommercialize our device with pain management clinics across the US. So my background iswork previously at a Rehab Center and healthcare. Served on Opia Task Force in NorthCarolina before starting the company. And really what opened up the door was, first a personal experience that I that I had with addiction. Had Gonethrough it myself when I was younger, and also experience firsthound effects through mywork and just realized that there was a huge gap between prescription and addiction.And although control drugs do a lot of good and benefits to patients, theyalso come with unintended consequences. So how do we ensure that our patients arehealthy and free of addiction and stigma? So, you know, I thinkthat it's interesting because innovators, I think, come to the you know, theidea that they're going to build something for a number of different reasons.Right some of them are technologist, engineers, physicians, and so what I thinkis so fascinating about your story is that you've experienced the problem firsthand.How do you think that that impacted your, you know, your strategy over thelast few years? How that how that's made a difference? That's agreat question. I believe that you know, first and foremost, in starting anycompany, the passion and the why and the purpose, in my opinion, is so important because you know, success doesn't happen overnight and you know, we're three years into it. I really believe we're still, you know, scratching the surface. It's so much that that's still to come. Andso, had we not been grounded in our mission? It's not just me, everyone on the team think we're very purposeful, my cofounder and I,in selecting not only ourselves, being aware of who we are and what we'rebringing to the team, but also the people that came next. And soevery one of us has a personal story with with the problem that we're solving. And you know, of course, that's not the end and be all. But right, you believe that passion and purpose is is a true drivingforce, at least in our company, and so, from from experiencing myself, I believe that I was able to have a grassroot lens at the problem. And I think in healthcare typically,... know, at least most ofthe companies out there, you know, start at a very high level andso believe we started, you know, at the grassroot level and work ourway up. And I think it's interesting. I don't think one is right andall the wrong. I think it just the way it is, atleast in our company. But we've done really good at filling in the gaps. So we have a, you know, a large clinical advisory group. Ourexecutive team, you know, has decades of experience and healthcare and pharmacy, the clinical space, the Pharma Space and so and and of course,the technology and product space. So as a team we've built a solid team. But it all started with with a story. Yeah, yeah, whichis a great place to start. You know. You know, statistically thenumber one reason why organizations succeed, start up succeed, is because they've figuredout product market fit. And I really feel strongly that one of the majorpathways to that product market fit is starting off with the customer and in involvingthe target customers in that co creation process. And so I can see how yourpersonal experience, in the personal experienced amongst your team made you really closeto the customer from day one and and I imagine that that would definitely leadto your success. Thank you. Thank you, and I will preface andsave it. I completely agree with the point about customer discovering and fortunately oftentimesit's overlooked. You know, when I talked to other startups that are startingout and you know, it's never, let's say, it's never an exit. For a lot of people it's not as exciting as it should be becauseit's you. You feel like you're not really moving forward, but in reality, you your you're essentially saving yourself a lot of hard work and failures inthe future if you do it early on. And so the first year actually,for believe, was pure customer discovery. My cofounder and I did not buildthis single thing, did not put in a dime of money until wereally felt confident that what we were going to build was actually going to bepurposeful and clinically used. And so, you know, hopefully we'll dive intothis, but we have a, you know, three troumed approach in termsof our users. So you know, we have several users, several customers, and so we had to spend a lot of time, you know,identifying the patient and user, identifying the physician, who is our main customer, and then and then the pharmacist, and so you know it takes alot of time to build that and you know, I believe that we've we'vewe've done a lot in the early stages and now can, you know,read the benefits of what we've produced. Yeah, I love what you're sayinghere, because even though you and your other, you know, cofounder,might have had firsthand experience, Whoa, that's never happened. My phone justrang. Didn't power it all. Let me just do that really quick sowe don't have this happen again. So your cofounder and you had personal experience, but I think what I'm hearing is that you said that's not enough.You know, just because we have personal experience doesn't mean that we are ourperspective is reflective of the entire target market. So that you went beyond that andinvolved other voices in that experience, in that customer discovery process, justto make sure that you were going to build something that was going to becommercially viable, not just to you and your cofounder, for entire target market. Exactly, exactly a hundred percent. And you know my cofounders, bottlecofounders, things go the them and his...

...backgrounds in biomedical electrical engineering. Sohe's the product person on the team, amongst many other things. But youknow, that's another major thing. That's another major asset that I believe everystart up today, you know, every text startup, has to have.And so you know, you know, and so your point. Yeah,exactly. It's not enough. And I think we spoke with at least ahundred physicians, pharmacists, patients over the course of six months and just justspent a lot of time talking, getting feedback and not looking at it fromyou know, or trying to eliminate as much bias, I guess, outof it. Yeah, and that's the key word right, the bias,because it's really easy to have that bias and that, you know, leadyou down the wrong path a so so what do you say to other innovatorsthat are in the trenches right now? There are probably at that cross roadof deciding who I have a limited amount of money, I have a windowof opportunity. So, you know, time is a scarce resource to maybeI should just circumvent this customer Discovery Co creation process or, you know,just ask one or two people and then move on, because we don't havetime and we don't have money for all of that. We need to getto market. We need to start getting paying customers. What do you sayto them, you know, kind of as you're looking back and to whatyour experience has been and what's led you to your success today. Yeah,great question. It's very tempting, as you pointed out, it's very temptingto jump this process and you know, I would say that it will saveyou a lot of time if you don't, if you just spend time being patient. And Healthcare is, you know, as you may know, Dr Roxyis a, in my opinion, is an irrational market in the sensethat it's slow and then, you know, at one point just pick Sol andso covid is a great example. You know, we've had tell ofHealth for the last twenty years, but seeing, you know, a hugegrowth sport. Why is that happening? And so I personally that a fewanswers. You know, I don't hold the answer, but I think myview on it is it's irrational and it takes time and so unlike other sectorswhere, you know, maybe growth and go to you know, first,market advantage is key in healthcare. I believe that if you don't take yourtime understanding your customers, you just going to head it don down. Youwon't be able to commercialize. There's so many great examples, especially in ourspace, the medication here in space, of companies that just fought that.How great would it be to, you know, get reminded when to takeyour med or figure out if someone that it's a it's a great solution onpaper, but does it really need the needs of customers? Are People Willingto spend money on that? Clearly know there's something there that we're not we'renot, we're missing, and so that's why we have a very unique advantagein a very unique position. We're not really an adherence play, where preventiveplay, it's all about risk mitigation. So that's a clear kind of needon the physician side and so they're much more eager to use us. Andso it wouldn't have kind of if we didn't spend enough time understanding that,I don't believe we would have been able to get the traction that we're getting. And so for you to be able to get there, I really believeyou need to put in the work early on and and and talk to asmany customers as possible and then pivot. You know, it also allows youto pivot if you realize six months into it, you know, I don'tthink there's a business model in it. Then you know you didn't spend alot of money, you didn spend a lot of time and then finally,you know, get a CO founder. I really believe that on in healthcarethat the team, that team, is so important, especially like that,it's so crucial to have a diverse team of skill sets and background and getget advisors as early as possible. I'm...

...not in any way healthcare veteran,you know, especially before starting. Belief I'm a very quick learner, that'sfor sure. Both my cofounder I pride ourselves with that and I think thathas helped us through customer discovery. But I really believe that if we didn'thave the mentors that we did early on, I was being mentored by, youknow, a very well known pharmacologist and a researcher in addiction space whileI was a wake forest and you know, had had Dr Johannes not been therein the early stages it would have been much harder. And so finda mentor and find advisors as early as possible. You'd be surprised by theamount of people and healthcare that I'm willing to support new endeavors. It's agreat space. Yeah, well, and I want to go back to somethingthat you said that I, you know, just kind of want to shed alittle light on to and have you go deeper. What I hear you'resaying is not only did the customer discovery allow you to, you know,be closer to the customer and making sure that you were building something that theywanted and they need and who's willing to pay for that, which obviously isextremely critical, but also it sounds like you discovered your competitor advantage because,to what you were saying, the medication adherents, you know, technology marketis is very gosh, it's I don't know if I would say saturated,but they're kind of a dime a dozen, and so it would be really easyfor you to come out do all that work with a me to product. But through this process you were able to figure out where you could serve, where could you meet a need and underserved part of the market and Iwould imagine that that's, you know, definitely leading to your success. Yeah, you know, you said, I believe it's actually a graveyard. Unfortunately, there's probably one of two companies that are pioneering and and so, yeah, I agree, great stuff out there that no one's using. But toyour point, you know, we have a lot of assumptions. Yeah,I would say maybe sixty percent of those of soft assumptions were disproved and thenforty percent we're like, oh, we're wrong to something. Let's you know. And so I think it's a balance. Right. You, most founders willhave a gut feeling and I think that that, you know, thatis innate in a lot of founders. And so follow your Gut, followyour intuition, don't second guess yourself too many times. But but be youhave an evidence based approach. Yeah, starting a companies is, in myopinions, like a scientific research. You know, you have a set ofassumptions and you're trying to either prove them or disprove the ideally disprove them andif they're not disproved, then least you can say that. Yeah, youknow, I've done I've done my research and it's about it and I reallybelieve investors will look for that. You know, eventually you will get askeda question and so if you don't do the hard work early on, you'retrying to fund raise right now and you don't have these assumptions figure it out, it's going to be very, very difficult. Yeah, yeah, solet's get I think you have a very interesting story on how you found yourcofounder. So tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, so gotham and I were not childhood friends. We not, you know, meetand Pal Alto or start a companying a garage. It was actually a coffeeshop, but it's very interesting. I think it's very unique. Yeah,I come up with idea behind leave in in my senior year of college andyou know, I'm not an engineer, I'm not a developer. Like Isaid, I was just really passionate about it and I was actually going totrying to pursue law school and you know,...

...luckily, after working with a lotof Lars over the last three years, I can say that I don't regretthat decision. And so decided that in summer, the summer of mygraduation, I wanted for sue believe, full time. And so luckily,Duke University was very close to wakes, only an hour and a half drive, and, you know, I decided to make a few trips out tosome universities that had really good engineering and tech, tech schools, and soduke was one of them. I printed out a bunch of ugly looking flyersthat were haphazardly made, but they, you know, they did the job. Yeah, and you know, you know, was looking for engineers,and so this is something that I learned in one of my one of mycourses. It's called Bat and switch. So you have a, you know, something attractive offer and then hopefully get that person to the table and thenshow them, you know, try to guide them into into the better one, ideally. Yeah, and so it gone to do. Can then postedseveral flyers and one of them was in a coffee shop there and my cofounder, Gotham, at that point was teaching an engineering course for high schoolers, and so he was on campus, probably probably the only person on campus, because it was dead. It was between summer one and two. LongStory Short, he passes by the coffee shop. He doesn't drink coffees andother coffee drinker. He never passes by that coffee shop, but that dayhe wanted to, I think, get something for these kids, you know, at the coffee shop and was solid flyer, took a picture of itand then left. And so he came back that same day just to,you know, check off on it to see who's sot there. It wouldhit. It been taken down by that, I guess, the coffee shop owner. So had he not, you know, taken that picture? Youknow who knows? So you know, we're you know that that just thatexperience shows, just like the values that we have as founders and as ateam, where very spiritual. We, you know, believe and believe infate. We believe that certain things happen and you just have to go withyour gut, go with your intuition and see it through. And so hetexted me. We drove back up, I think two weeks later Meta metat a coffee shop. He had some tea, I had some coffee.I'm a big coffee drinker. And and then that was when he shared hisexperience with addiction. His family members, of some of his family members havegone through it and actually some lost lost their lives to it. And sothat really resonated with me and and just felt like we had a vulnerable momentand and you know, at that point in time I feel like we justconnected and you know from there. You don't meet a person and then decideto start a company with a random person. But but I guess it just workedout for US absolutely. Yeah, that's great. I think that that'sprobably a story that you'll tell for many years to come. Real yeah,Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Areyou trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrivein the new covid economy? I want every health innovator to find their mostviable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof yourbusiness pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helpsyou find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you needto examine for a three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. Icall them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through thiscomprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you needto make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details andopportunities learn more at legacy type and DNACOM...

...backslash kit. So when you thinkabout where you are today and and kind of in comparison to that coffee shopencounter, what's this ride been like these last three years? Well, it'sbeen crazy. I mean we've lived in four different cities across both coasts.We've moved were we packed up our bag six months after meeting each other,move to DC part of a fellowship program called Halcyon, based in George stowneis for social entrepreneurs, and move to Boston to mass challenge, then fivehundred startups in San Francisco and then back to DC, and so it's beena crazy journey. You know, and I believe that unfortunately we don't talkenough about the downs, because it's not just you know, it's not justsuccess. I think most of the it's ninety percent. From my opinion,it's nine percent small failures and then that leads to success. And so wehighlight the the success part but not enough on the on the hardship, andso we had to make make a lot of sacrifices, but but it paysoff, and and and so over the last three years, you know,we've grown the team to plus or minus twenty right now, and so it'snot it's not anymore just me and goth and it's much bigger than that.We want to continue to do that over time. My opinion, as muchas I can dilute my value to the company, the better they becomes,because eventually it's not me, it's not goth and it's a mission. It'smuch bigger than ourselves. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I completelyagree with you too. I think too often entrepreneurs think that in orderto get the right mentors, the right investors, the right target customers,that they have to present a very rainbow butterfly kind of journey. We gotit all figured out, we get all the data, we get all thecustomers, we got all the money, kind of story. And I've interviewedtwo hundred plus entrepreneurs and none of them have had that story. And I'myou know, because it's just doesn't exist right. The reality is is muchmore complicated and difficult then then, I think a lot of us tend toadmit and there's so much discouragement along the way so what are some of thethings that you've done to stay encouraged over the years? Yeah, you know, I think two things. I believe that you have to have that inneryou have to always look inwards when you're going through a tough, tough periodof time. You know, for example, over the last two years, Ithink at every year there was a major crossroad, at least one majorcross road, and that the honestly, the death of us as a company. Think the first year it was, let's say, the the lack oftraction. Healthcare is very, very slow. It takes a lot of time.Where newcomers. How do you get people to believe in you? Howdo you get people to to try, you know, to take a Iguess, take a risk, a leap of faith, and so in thebeginning it was very little traction. And so, you know, try tolook inwards and and just think about why we even started this. I wouldstay second year cofounder relations. You know, we've known each other for a yearplus. Yeah, then this journey would we haven't even got in startedand there's a lot of pressure. You know, I moved to San Francisciscoto fundraise go th on was here in DC and so sixhour difference, alot of things being lost in communication and it was just us and maybe anotherperson, but mostly us. So we're...

...literally, you know, seeing eachother every or virtually every day, and so if you don't have that break, if you don't have, you know, a good structure in place, itcould be very, very daunting. And so had to learn new skills, new communication skills, learn to be better founders to each other. Sothat was a major cross road. Now, early track, early pilots, commercialization, bugs, glitches, product issues, you know, patients going on,coming on board, training, improving, then going back to the drafting andso, you know, I think this will continue until you, youknow, get to a point where you know at least it's on autopilot andand you've figured out a lot of some of the issues that are going onwith the product or the especially with product markets fit. And so, youknow, I think the way we continue to move forward is we be betterteam members to each other, be vulnerable when we have to, but alsowork towards being better, better people. Yeah, and then looking inwards,you know, I had a very tough moment about a month ago. I'dlost a very close family member of mine and it's a very tough time foreveryone. I mean, covid has really, really changed the world. But Ireally believe that I was able to see a silver lining in all thisand there's a lot of positive things that are going to come out of this. And so looking in words and just trying to stay positive and asking yourself, why did you even start this? And so it goes back to thefirst point I made, which is passion. I really believe if you don't havethat and if you just chasing the money, the impact, the recognition, especially for first time founders, it's just not enough. And so youneed to really ask yourself why you're doing this and if you don't have theanswer, that's fine, go back, you know, do your thing,work at a normal job. You probably get paid much better and stabilities,and then, you know, when you find your your your calling, gofor it. Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's really great wisdom.And, you know, thanks for being so transparent and vulnerable. And youknow, I think the that cofounder relationship is really just like a marriage,right. And so when things are not going well, right, when cashflows not coming in, you know, when you're experiencing all the things thatyou just iterated. It would be really easy to blame the other person.It's also really easy to start questioning of like is this even worth it,and am I really onto something? Am I you know it? Or weever going to get there? You know, all of these questions that you tendto ask yourself as you're going through this journey, and I think thatthat's why we have, you know, so many people that enter in,so many people that don't finish the cross line because they this journey gives youtenzero reasons to quit, right. Yeah, so, so you've learned a lotover the last three years and you are cre you've created some momentum recentlyand you know so let's talk about how covid has actually been a little bitof that catalyst or momentum for you, and what are some of the highlightsthat's happening now, and you know how you're successfully commercializing be leave today.Great Question. So, to start with, just heard you this year we wereable to find it in Laune, your first commercial product, and havethe right here in my hands, and so we're very, very glad tofinally see see it come to fruition. It's great to you know, holdsomething. Hardware has its value. You know, although it's a long,long journey, when you're getting there, at least you can, you know, actually see it, engage with it,...

...and it's a great way to alsoget people excited, customers invested. You know, when we send thisthe vice out, it really speaks for itself, and so we've got alot of good, good feedback at data from the market. You know,to be honest, I don't want to raise too much about it, butyou know, most of most of the feedback that we're getting is warmed.They love the ease of use, especially on the APP side, how easy, how page of friendly it is. On the pharmacy side, it's soeasy to dispense in the device. It's literally the same process as they wouldnormally do, just replacing a traditional camp with ours, and then it justlocking sleeve that locks everything in place and it's, you know, ready togo, tamper evident and secure and safe. So this is the first piece ofmomentum that push us forward. We're able to launch a few clinical pilots. Got Some really good clinical data from patients. have several patients have beenon that for six plus month now. Really good data and continually improving.You know, the team, the behind the store that I'm in are literallyright now working on updating the firmware, testing out the devices and proving theAPP. So it's a continuous journey and I think think that during covid hasbeen huge, because covid allows allowed us to do two things. First,internally, we're able to it as an initial slow down in in our goto market strategy because, of course, with hospitals everyone's prioritizing, you know, the the at risk populations. So we were able to do a loton product and and and that's just one area. Operations are CEO came in, I was able to really build new foundations and layers to our company.Just created more stability, more structure necessary for future rounds of funding and expansion. As well. We're able to enhance our on boarding protocols. This isa big piece of it because with any type of digital health solution you're dealingwith a patient, then if you don't have the right on boarding protocols,there is going to be a huge turn right and so that's something we realize. In our first pilots, you know, we had patients coming on but alot of them were churning. Why were they churning? So we're ableto take all this feedback and prove it and you know, now we're seeingthe benefits that we've all the time that we spent doing that. So covidallows allow us to do all these things internally externally. I really believe it'sthe last month has really showed what the future may look like. Tell ahealth allowed a lot of providers to first be more constable, in my opinion, using technology also seeing the benefits that it could bring right and so alot of people were skeptical, including myself. You know, it's never a bigI would say. I always feel like, as a patient, goingseeing a doctor just has this powerful has its perks, but at the sametime, during these tough moments, we have to adapt, and so tella health can augment that. I don't think it's a complete replacement, butit augments the relationship. And so, similarly with remote patient monitoring, abig trend is moving in that direction. We're seeing increased reimbursements from public andprivate insurance companies. That shows that first, it's medically necessary and second, youknow, they're willing to pay for it, and so that's a big, big part of it and I think you know, finally, you know, finally we're able to see this in I think, two things. Ithink you need to do the customer discovery part. You need to figure out, I mean, we always have the assumption that payers were going to bea prime customer, but again, healthcare, my opinion, is irrational, andso you want to make sure that you're able to stay alive long enoughwhere you can read some of the benefits that, you know, growth maycome with, and so this is a good example. I think that it'snot purely luck. I think it's a...

...mixture of right timing as well asreally understanding the market that you're playing. And so we're hearing from a lotof providers that you know, this is a tool that could really, reallyhelp with the way they prescribe control drugs, and it's just opioids, opiates,as a starting point. They see the envision a world where other drugslike Gaba, Penton, Benjo, daze beans, which which are like Zanx and conic pens. They're being labeled now as a silent epidemic, andso we see ourselves as kind of creating a standard for control, dark prescription, dispensing and monitoring. And so, yeah, I mean we're we havea number of partnerships with major hospitals centers across the nation, you know,including the likes of you dog and Hsu, and right now we're rolling it upwith several of their providers and and it's an exciting time, you know. And and we've recently launched a new campaign that has resulted in a lotof inbounds and increased conversion rates. So, you know, I think again,it's a mixture of timing and just providers feeling more comfortable using, usingthese technologies. Yeah, so I want to give you an opportunity just tokind of speak to this as we, you know, start to wrap uphere. Is, you know, one of the things that I've witnessed withCovid, besides the silver linings that you're talking about with, you know,reimbursement alignment and more greater adoption, accelerated adoption of this digital health tools,is is that the inbox is the conferences has closed, as the planes havebeen grounded. Right, there's been this huge shift towards digital communication and sofor many organizations, we were already developing digital communications and campaigns, but becausethere's been a huge shift, because that's almost the only channels that we havenow to engage that the the amount of noise and clutter is exponentially higher andmade breaking through the noise more difficult than ever before. So what are someof the things that you all are doing to successfully break through that noise andget the attention of your target customer? That's a great question. You know, over the last I would say six months, we've probably tested anywhere betweenten to fifteen different types of campaigns and so, you know, the conceptof Ab testing is very big and Silicon Valley and it's they've championed it forthe right reasons because, you know, it's all about data and I thinkas a team, we we have that approach. We we you know,it's not about ego, it's not about who's riding the content right right,what role they're playing. You know, at the end of the day,if it's if it's not tested, you know it's it shouldn't be used.And so we're able to do small tests to basically improve the content and wetrack everything from, you know, open rate, click rates, reply rates, warm, whether they're warm, whether they're cold, and literally the first, I would say, you know, five campaigns were very cold. So, to your point, there was a lot of noise. I think thetiming as well. You know, March to join was very tough. Youknow, not only covid but people anxiety that came with and uncertainty. Andso how do you, you know, how do you essentially take in allthis information and address it and improve on your content? You know, Ithink it's trong and error. We took what worked and we left out whatdidn't, and so anything, you know, between subject lines to the way thatwe talked about believe. So right now we see believers, you know, a tool that essentially fits into some of the would same measures coming outof Covid, especially on the DA side.

You know, I think that's abig piece of it. Da has eased prescriptions for control drugs because theywant a limit, of course, the risk and the exposure that patients aregetting when they visit doctors. So, as you know, a lot ofpain patients that are prescribed to opioids have to, you know, visit thedoctor every month in order to get a new reef and they administer anything betweenyour and screens a questionnaires to basically figure out if that patient is at risk. And so they can't necessarily do that as much with covid and so therewas a huge policy that we pushed out by the DA to essentially increase thethe these prescriptions two three months as much as ninety days, and so youknow that may come with unintended consequences. So, you know, how dowe essentially fit into that? You know, we we we ensured that the waywe talk about believe fits into some of these polyssies. You know,essentially creating more safety of reducing the risk in that process and you know,also kind of talking about the the the benefits of using her more patient monitoringduring a covid world. Yeah, you know, you don't have to bringthe patient back into administer these things. will do most of the automation inthe back end. Will make sure that the patients that are at risk willbe front and center and the ones that aren't you don't have to worry aboutthem. You can get the peace of mind and for a lot of providerswho see hundreds of patients a year, you can't necessarily track every patient.It's just too much, and so that's another big issue around medication adherence,which a lot of companies have them solved for, which is the noise.Yeah, you know, there's too much data being pushed out there and howto enshare the providers act with with with as little data as possible, inmy opinion. So I think that was some of the content that we wereable to create. Yeah, that's great. So is there anything else that youwould any wisdom, any lessons learned in in your last three year journeythat you would want to share with our viewers and listeners? Yeah, Iknow. I first thank you for giving us a platform and in also creatingthis podcast because, you know, to your point, it shuds light ina genuine way and and also stresses is the importance of business model validation,proof of concept, product markets fit, especially in healthcare, you know,because it's so hard to commercialize and it's so hard to really find product marketfit, because everyone points fingers, you know, and trance company points fingerto the providuct vider points finger to the pharmacist. PHARMACIS they and so onand so forth, because there's so many actors, especially in our market,where we have to adapt every single one of them. If you're selling toa prop provider group and it's a clear path. That's a different story.It's much easier, but especially when you're end patient is not your customer,it's very, very tricky. So I think you know, words of wisdomis we're three years into it. We haven't, I believe, still scratchthe surface. There's a long way to go. We're very excited about thefuture and so it's a long journey. You know, try to see,Try to vision, envision a world that you and your team sought to createand use that as your North Start and then top into resources as early aspossible. You don't hold the answers, the world does, and so Iguess we humble in your approach and, to your point, reduce the biasand the noise. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining metoday. I appreciate you taken the time to share your experience with with everyone. How can our listeners and viewers get ahold of you if they want tofollow up with you after the show? Yeah, follow us to leavecom there's, you know, you can get a...

...bunch of information about what we're doingand there's a contact us button where we'd love to just hear your story,get your feedback. Is this something that you've been through, a friend,a family members gone through? We'd love to just hear your stories. That'swhat motivates us, that's what that's what keeps us going and that's our energy, that's our fuel. So you know, check in and let us know yourstory and if you feel like there's someone in your network that could benefitfrom this, you know, reach out to us by our website. Wehave a contact us button and will replies as quickly as possible. We're astartup. That's we're always we're always checking our INBOXES. Awesome. Thank youso much. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy workingto bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and yourattention. To save time and get the latest episodes on your mobile device,automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotifyand stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who's been sharing theshow with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Coiq.

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