Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 2 years ago

Why Every Innovator Needs a Framework: Key Checkpoints and Tips for Success w/ Jon Warner

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

It’s no secret that innovating in healthcare is a completely different beast than other industries. That’s why it’s so important for innovators to work inside a framework, making sure they’re covering the most important considerations on their path.


And inside that framework lies a series of checkpoints and critical needs that innovators can’t afford to ignore.


On this episode, we’re joined by Jon Warner, CEO of Silver Moonshots and author of 40 books, most recently “SLAM: Build your startup idea or early stage business with the Startup Launch Assistance Map.” We cover some huge topics for innovators, including:

  • How to make sure you’re accounting for upstream and downstream issues, instead of creating a single-point solution that’s never adopted
  • Having a deep understanding of your market so that you can hyper-target the people whose “hair is on fire” — the ones who really need your solution the most
  • The critical need to get as much traction and velocity as possible so that you can rise above the noise

 


Guest Bio

Jon Warner is the CEO of virtual startup accelerator Silver Moonshots. Silver Moonshots works with entrepreneurs who are focused on solving for older adult issues, allowing Jon to focus on his passion of making life better for the 50-and-older population.


As a serial entrepreneur, he has several other roles, including Co-Founder of BetterLife Remedies and Adjunct Professor and Mentor in Entrepreneurship at the University of Redlands.


Jon has been in the healthcare industry for more than 30 years, where he started his career on the business side, helping healthcare organizations build more efficient systems and processes.


To learn more about SLAM and buy your own copy, check out his website
www.slamprocess.com. You can also connect with him on LinkedIn.

Welcome to Coiq, where you learn how health innovators maximize their success. I'm your host, Dr Roxy, founder of Legacy DNA and international bestselling author of how health innovators maximize market success. Through candid conversations with health innovators, earlier, doctors and influencers, you'll learn how to bring your innovation from my idea to start up to market domination. And now let's jump into the latest episode of Coiq. Welcome back to the show coiq listeners. On today's episode we have John Warner with us. He is the CEO of Silver Moon shots and let me make sure I get this right, he is also a professor of business and entrepreneurship the author of forty plus books, including his most recent publication, the Book Slam. Welcome to the show, John. Thank you very much, rock SHAG's great to be here. Thank you. So I always like to start off by, you know, having our guests tell our listeners a little bit about themselves, and so if you don't mind sharing a little bit about what you do and some of your background. Okay. Well, let me start with the background, because that's easy. In terms of how I got here, I had a corporate career for a long while, until I was in my early thirty pees. I actually worked in the old industry of all places, but got bored with that. I just felt I was waiting for a whole bunch of jobs that I didn't want. So when I'men to manage from consulting for a little while, and that's what got me involved with healthcare very early on I started working. In those days there was a lot of business process reengineering, so I was working on the business side of healthcare trying to help major hospital systems, insurance systems, from sort of companies, by Atteck for that matter, get to more efficient processes and systems, and that led me into the entire healthcare system, slowly but surely, and I've been in it now for the best part of thirty years. And then within that space my passion is for the fifty plus population. I just think there's a ton of unmet needs in that population that we don't solve for entrepreneurily, and it's my career has gone on. I've been swimming from very large systems and the healthcare sides are smaller and smaller companies. So these days I work mainly with startup companies, nerdy stage companies who are trying to disrupt healthcare in some way, and in particular I focused on that fifty plus population and how to make their lives better. So that's the quick summary. That's wonderful. There's so many problems out there for us to help solve. Right there are just a legion of them and we don't spend enough time focused on it. You know. I know the older adult population accounts for most of the spending healthcare it but it certainly doesn't get anywhere near the equivalent attention. Yeah, Yep, absolutely, and we'll kind of dive in a little bit later on some of that market segmentation and how important those nuances are. So can you explain from your perspective what how would you describe what's happening in healthcare innovation right now in two thousand and twenty and kind of in you know, in the past year? Yeah, and even a little bit longer than that. I think we had a major change really about ten years ago with a couple of things. I think the Internet became ubiquitous and I think that was led largely by smart devices being made available. You know, in two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight and then beyond it. So I think digital health is as got a lot of potential in all of its forms. So I think we're starting to see in roads into healthcare particular in terms of rendering solutions and innovations that make patients lives easier, better and even cheaper. The...

...problem is it's a slow ship to turn. We have a healthcare system that's a hundred and fifty years old and it feels like it's creaking and can't change at all at once. We've got to do it progressively. So this is a revolution from below and I think you'll start to see a lot of these smaller companies become big companies over time and they will ultimately disrupt the the larger players in the space or displace them if they don't move past off themselves, which is why you're now seeing adoption in the larger systems as well. HMM, yeah, Yep, absolutely. So I talked a lot about this statistic that's really that I came across years ago that really was kind of a catalyst for everything that I do, that ninety five percent of innovations that are brought to market fail to reach any adequate level of customer acceptance or financial profitability. So from Europe, I mean that's that's alarming right in. So the odds are not necessarily in our favor. From your perspective, why do you think some healthcare innovations fail and why some succeed? Yes, good question. So it's even worse in healthcare than those statistics. And you know, sadly, because healthcare is such a regulated industry and of course you're playing with people's lives. So you know it's rightly so, that it's got more regulation than others, but it does make it runs slower. I think the the big thing that I notice is that, although there's a lot of innovation around healthcare, I think the worry that I have, and I'm not alone in this, is that we see far too many point solutions, so in other words, a problem that's very narrow, that gets solved, but doesn't solve for the flow around it. So an example where that would be saying, well, I can solve a particular chronic condition in a patient without thinking that all the way through, from beginning to end, and all the touch points that are necessary in terms of rendering that solution to be effective and efficient. You can't just fix one problem. You've actually got to go and think up streaming downstream and then solve for that. So, yeah, that's where innovation has to go. Hmmm, in so it sounds like you're saying that you think that that's like a pretty big gap, that we're thinking about it in terms of a single point solution. Why do you think health innovators are missing that? What's missing for us to be thinking about that upfront? Yeah, I think partly it's knowledge. I think the healthcare system is that it lives through symptoms of, you know, a Pake in terms of understanding it in all of its complexity. We built a very complex system with all sorts of weird rules, not the least of which are pricing, by the way. Right they don't understand how value is transferred. We have a, you know, a deliberately difficult system to understand. But it's difficult to understand the systems level. So I think a lot of entrepreneurs aren't necessarily from the inside and think they can disrupt something but don't have the inside knowledge. And then it's complicated to go and think upstream and downstream. You know, you might think I can solve a diabetes for example, and go all in on that. But you've got to go and understand that the people that are rendering care for diabets are rendering care for many other things at the same time. So your solution has to take account of that. MMMM YEP, and I would imagine that it's also somewhat difficult for an early stage company to think about that from a resource standpoint. Yeah, right, having having the time in the capital to be able to address all of those different layers of the problem. That's right. And so what it does is extend your customer discovery process a it makes it more complicate you because you got to get to a lot more people, but you got to go deeper. So where if you and I were just doing some software solution in a SAPTC market, we might be able to do this very simply. You know, talk to fifty sixty customers quite straightforwardly, do...

...so in three months and really be quite a long way down the road of understanding product market fit. In healthcare you can double, treble, quadruple that time in terms of number of people you have to talk to and to understand what's going on. So very different world to navigate versus a lot of other industries. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I always say that. You know, commercializing and innovation in is in any industry, is really difficult, but it's especially challenging when it comes to healthcare. It's just so many more nuances that we have to face and overcome. Yeah, I'm'll give you a good example just because it's illustrative. I know a startup in California and Northern California thought they had a very elegant solution to deal with in continents and spend all their time talking to the end customer being consonant at all, and not because they thought that's how it monetized. But as they dug in, it took them a year to do it, they finally realized than the ends that there was the nurses in care facilities are the ones that needs to use their solution and if they didn't go and build it into their work routines, it didn't matter. They weren't deliberately trying to go and leave patients in beds in there in continent stay. They were just overworked. So what they needed was solution that's sold for their issues at the wider level in order to go and say yes, we're now with you, we want to solve this in consonance problem. They'd finally get there, but it took them a lot longer than they thought and a lot more effort than they thought, even for that simple issue, even though everyone was saying, yes, this is a good idea. So there's two things that come to mine, you know, that you talk about in your book, that I think can help overcome that. So one is a framework, a framework for making those decisions when they're developing, when health innovators are developing their you know, commercialization strategy or plan and, you know, making sure that some of those steps don't get overlooked, and then having an expert like you to walk them through that process, to kind of give them some pushback and help them to think deeper or, you know, kind of stick with it a little bit longer. Of You know, you've kind of sat down with twenty target customers, but we need maybe thirty more, whatever that would look like. Kind of speak a little bit about what the importance of having a framework and then the value that an external advisor or consultant could offer. Yeah, okay, so I think the frameworks critical because I think the startup found needs to make sure they don't miss steps out. There are critical things that can be catastrophically problematic if they're not covered. Call this risk and as a ton of risks that you have to mitigate in order to get from a to be so I think it a frameworks important that I think the lean business start up movement did as a huge favor, you know, more than a decade ago now, in helping US start to go and make frameworks available. What I've done with the slam model is really done something that's just extending that model a little bit further, perhaps simplifying a little bit further, so that people can cover those things in a sequential fashion. I think they can do a lot by themselves, because my frame was an explorer if you want. It basically says asked these questions and ask member of as many customers as you possibly can. But then you're right, it does need a certain amount of guidance. So I think bringing advisors on, both to advise the startup and actually being involved in the process, is crucible because you need people to push back on your assumptions and that's the great problem. Individuals think they've got to handle on what it is they're solving for. And ultimately that you know may not be true, and you don't want to fall in...

...love with your own ideas very early on because they're in lies disaster. Absolutely, and I think that you know exactly what you're saying is correct, that you know that that third party person, no matter who it is, can help you not fall in love with your own product and help you overcome some of those internal or inherent biases that you might have of you know, two people said they love it, so therefore I must have a successful business model or I must be solving a real problem. Absolutely, but there's a very nice book at there called the mom test, which is, you know, it says what the crown founders go and ask mom or dad and say what do you think? Well, Mom and dad love you so for the most part, so they're going to say, you know, well, yeah, that's a great idea, I love it. Yeah, feedback you need right, right, absolutely, and you know, even if it's not your mom and dad, you know who really wants to tell someone that their babies ugly? Right, that's right. So I think that's the round of professional advice, for sure. Can you think of any examples of when you've worked with health innovators and you've had some of those difficult conversations and what that was like. Yeah, so for me it's a regular affair. I run a little virtual accelerator every quarter in which I have six companies that are trying to solve for something in the healthcare space, and typically it's an aging as well. So every one of those companies, in fact, we only invite them in when they have a mental readiness to accept frank feedback, not only from me but from the mentors in the group. So that could be peer venturing and it's your ugly baby comment. It's just we all agree that we're not going to be precious about what we're putting forward. If we can't see it, we don't get it, we're going to say as much. So every company gets that kind of feedback at the beginning, if only to test the you know, the hypotheses. Yeah, tell me why I get deeper. Tell me more so that and then test that. Now, show me that you've got ten customers that said their hairs on fire in terms of wanting that product or service that you're rendering. And if you can do that, you're going to get a long way if you can't think again. So again and again and again and in fact in the in the cohort. Every time I do a cohort I think someone's going to sort of emerge without a pivot, but they end up with mini pivots at a, you know, one level and in some cases very major ones, usually at the end of a six sweet sprint. So pretty regular. You know, I think that even for myself, I can think of advisors and can assultants that I've worked with and you know, when they push back on my ideas or my plan and say I need a little bit more detail here, you know sometimes it's so frustrating because I just want to be done with it and move on to the next thing. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs are really fast paced and either often want to skip strategy all together and just get to the tactics or kind of develop the strategy as quick as possible and get to the tactics and in it's it's a frustrating wrestling kind of experience, but it always ends up richer and better for that process. Yeah, agreed, and I think the problem is that people, apart from falling in love with their own idea. There's a legacy cost, right. So the further in you get, the more you're you've got the investment of all of the effort that you've made into your one hypotheses that you've assumed is correct. It's really hard to go and say to anybody, why don't you go back and throw away what might be a year, or year and a half or two years worth of work, because pace foundational. So I call it the unmet needstep one on the slam map, and just rip that up. It may not be right and that's tough for a lot of people to do because that's invested. Yeah, I'd rather just...

...throw another million or two add it and feel like I'm heading in the right direction then to realize that I've wasted a million or two and start over right, exactly. Yeah, definitely lie. Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Do you want your innovation to succeed, to change lives, to shape the future of healthcare? I want that for every health innovator, which is why I invented Coyq and evidence based framework to take your innovation from an idea to start up to full market adoption. If you're not sure where you are in the commercialization process, take the free assessment now at Dr Roxycom backslash score. Don't miss out on impacting more lives just because you have a low coiq score. The Free Assessment is at Dr Roxycom backslash score. That's Dr Roxiecom backslash score. And now let's jump back into the conversation. So I want to, you know, kind of take the conversation a little bit deeper into some of the nuances of a commercialization plan, in some of the strategies and tactical decisions that are in your slam framework and say, you know, let's look at targeting. What are some of the strategies, are best practices around defining a market that they're that a health innovator is going to target, choosing between one or, you know, another one? And then also, if you could just kind of speak to you, what are some of the barriers or the obstacles of getting that right that you often see? Yeah, okay, so I mentioned it in passing. Step one on the slam map actually has got at least five times more the power of any of the others, and the reason for that is because people need to know what problem they're solving for and it's got three subparts for it, and I'm going to go all in this. I'm going to use my space, the aging space, as Yaps. Well, I know you and I have talked about this roxy before. Yeah, the older adult market, the fifty plus. It's a hundred and fifteen million people in the US right now and so you can't really treat that as one MOLITHIC hoole. It's not a pejorative hole. You know, giving them labels like boomers and seniors doesn't help. It reduces a bit, but it doesn't help. It makes gigantic. So the trick, I always think, with the unmet need is to understand how hypothesis about something. There's a pain point out there or something that people need to gain. But the real question is which people, which tribe within that population, is the one that cares the most, and you can define that demographically or psychographically or in other ways. So it could be. I'm just going to focus on females. I'm going to focus on people in their sevent is. I'm going to focus on people that are tall or short, it really doesn't matter, but have a basis to go and reduce the size of the population so that they're reachable and hopefully they're the ones with their hair most on fire, to use that same phrase again, so you can build a customer persona around that person going all in on that is the game of entrepreneurship for me, because I think getting to a small tribe and counter inturgibly, the smaller it gets, the better it is, is going to help you so much later because your capacity to sell to it's going to be so much easier and as you get later, in terms of the Slam Mat step too is build your team around that. Well, you're recruiting your team on the basis of that particular beach head market, that particular persona, and their knowledge of that and how to reach it and how to engage with it. And then your value proposition in step three is going to be completely aligned them with what their needs are. And not just today, but in terms of...

...your product pipeline, as you're building out how it's going to literate and improve as you get further down the path. You can add markets to it later. It may well be, you know, taking something like the facebook story that you know you can get to the world and get two millie two billion people on your platform, but I don't. I can't think of a single start up that ever got there that quickly, even if it was a fairly viral growth curve. They always started with a narrow segment. In facebook's case it was first year Harvard males. That was it, and they spent their first six months doing nothing but that. Not Try and spoil the ocean. Yeah, and I think that what we're talking about now is is so obvious, but yet it's really often overlooked. I was just having a conversation with someone a couple weeks ago and they had three markets that, from their perspective, they could pursue. That the there was the the problem that they were looking to solve. Three different market segments were experiencing and their approach was, you know, I have a few relationships here, few relationships they are few relationships here, and so it really wasn't strategically looked at like what are the competitors and each one of those segments and, like you said, which one of these have their hair on fire, which ones are like really looking for a solution, versus the ones that I'm going to have to go and try to persuade them and convince them that they have a problem that we can solve. And then, you know, their early stage start up and so they were burning through cash like crazy doing a little bit. And these three different markets right, because they've got different messaging and positioning and I mean just so many different things, and I just thought like this is a this is a red flag, this is one of those pitfalls that again, seems so obvious, but are real problems for that help us, that prevent us from, you know, changing the odds of those successes. That's right and I think it's it's fundamentally you need to think about it and resolves constrained terms. You've only got so much time and bandwidth and money or other resources available when you're a startup. You're not a big company. You can throw a lot of money at things. Typically, yeah, if you can. You don't want to sort of spray your bullets everywhere, to use that analogy, and hope, yeah, target. So for me the greatest frustration is someone that says, you know, I think everyone's going to love this or, even worse, I'm going to go be to C and B, to be at the same time cracking now completely different market places, and then as you put B to be to see in the middle of those. That's a different one. Again, it's not only getting narrow, it's actually saying, well, let's try and do this in a sequential fashion so we can get conversion in the end. What investors want out of companies in any industry, not just healthcare, is customer acquisition. Yeah, so saying I've got a lot, a lot of targets sounds like it's attractive. You know, look at all the targets I could reach. It isn't. Most investors saying no, go to an incredibly narrow target and convinced you can get a hundred customers. Yeah, we'll invest in you, it's all right, right, right, yeah, oh my goodness, I had that conversation to because I work with folks that say, Oh, the market potential is one billion and all we need is three percent, and they you know, like that's going to be the persuasive story. It's like, no, that's where we're running exactly. So let's talk about what are some of what, if some of the other strategies that you are and recommend for health innovators that are in the trenches right now that are building out those go to market and commercialization plans. Okay, so later on, once you've actually got so in, when people look at the the slam map, they'll see those first three steps I mentioned. I met need the team that's going to solve the problem. The value proposition are the three things that are in product market fit. You spend all your time on those.

The rest is really understanding the market you're entering. So what customer discoveries doing for you in a deep risking sense is making sure you've done several things. A number one you've got to size your market. How big is it really? You mentioned you know there's a billion dollar mark out here. I rarely believe those kinds of numbers because that might be what a total market is, at a total addressable market level. Yeah, what's your reachable market is a very different number and that needs research. So people should be doing a lot of sizing and carefully doing so. Go to market is then obviously very important. I can't believe how many startups tell me that they're going to big things up on facebook or use SEO to solve this. In markets where people aren't even searching on Google or not even looking at facebook, there are multiple marching channels, you've really go and go and pick the few that can reach your customer tribe. Yeah, and that takes work and research, of course, and then you're going to be diving into your customer requisition costs in those channels and then your long term value you can create and making sure those numbers are available. Pricing is then really important, and that's not just sort of arbitrarily just slapping a price on your productal service. It's about the value you're adding and then what share of that value you're going to take in order to render the service you are that is a lot of careful work. And then, finally, it's about, for me, getting into the ecosystem, understanding the market you're entering and how are they going to react to your entry to it. So in some cases that's obvious. Competitors are going to be making, you know, moves against what you're doing and you should know who they are and what they're going to do or at least predict try and project it. But their influences in the market. There's buyers in the market and there are there are other sort of influences that are around, so you really want to map all of that. I love to draw the ecosystem in a very detail fashion so we could understand it, and that's particularly important in healthcare because it's typically so complicated. Yeah, yeah, and that makes so much sense to overcome the challenge that you mentioned earlier in our conversation about you know, I'm targeting one group and as I dig into it I realize that those aren't going to be those decisionmakers and I could have had an entire robust plan for the for the wrong market. That's right. Wrong market or, and you make a very good point, or wrong decision maker in healthcare. There's a couple of things that often cause mini pivots. One is with we're targeting particular customer and that customer isn't the buyer. They're an influence, sir, but it's somebody else who's the bars are who actually holds the money and got a final decision. or it might be a team by in healthcare, I find half the time it's a team by, and you better understand that. How the team plays together? Yeah, because they recommend to each other. So if they're going to go an adopt a system and pay us as for a thousand dollars of month or tenzero dollars a month, you might have to get to five people. So it's really important to understand who those five people are in a given industry, for example. Yeah, absolutely, and those five people might have different point pain points that there's looking to solve, for right, different messaging, yes, well, and, if not, different pain points, different criteria by which they make a judgment. So I'm the CFO as opposed to an exactly director, as opposed to achieve medical officer. I've got completely different criteria that I'm using to judge what I get out of this. So then it's about the the differentiators. It's about the value proposition of making sure it's pitched in such a way is those different stakeholders in the decision thing. Ah, this is going to give me a real benefit here. So I'm prepared to go and, you know, write my signature on the purchase order. Yep, Yep, absolutely. So we talked earlier about this explosion of innovation that's happening in healthcare. In what I find to be one of the challenges is rising above the noise. Right, you know, there there's innovation taking place in a lot in other and all other verticals, but...

...in healthcare. It seems to be so concentrated it right. So instead of, you know, knocking on someone's door and it being kind of the third innovation solution that they've seen this month, it could be the third pitch that they've had in the last hour. So really being able to rise above the noise is extremely critical. Do you have any guidance on how health innovators can rise above the noise? So for me that's really simple, because I think the best thing you can do is to get as much traction and belocity as you can, and that sounds difficult, but it's not as difficult as you think. It's about getting your beachhead customers on platform, on your products, in your service. Now that can be a gerrymandered solution. It really doesn't matter as long as you've actually got real, live people using the service. That's the best credentialer of all. So as I sit and I you know I actually work in the investment community, both the angel level and institutional level, I'd say as many as eight out of ten and pictures that I see special early stage ventures say we've got customers coming soon. I'd rather than tell me they've got ten customers even only ten and here's what we've learned. Or I've got thirty, but there they happen to be all my friends right now. Or what have you learned from those friends? That's, yeah, better outcome than I've got a ton of money in the bank but I've got no customers. So I think that's the biggest de risker able. Yeah, yeah, and I think you kind of allude to this idea of, you know, eventually we get to the whole product configuration, but in the early stage, you know, going back to lean start up this MVP right. And it's interesting. I feel like this is a very lively topic in healthcare because, and I interested to know what your perspective is on this, but you know, when you talk about MVP and other industries, everyone's like, yeah, that makes sense, let's do it, and then in healthcare they're like, oh, would what we're talking about? Patients live, so we can't do minimum viable product. We need to have the whole in Chilada, and and so just kind of talk a little bit about that. You know, what is an MVP and how can you do an MVP and healthcare and still not put people's lives at risk? Yeah, so the one thing we've got to be careful about in health care is that you're right. This is a complete defense mechanism to go and say we deal with people's lives. World not ecent a healthcare doesn't deal with people's lives. It's a giant industry. We spent three and a half trillion. At least ninety percent of that is spend on this systems that render care to patients. At the end. Not Everything's a life threatening event. So I think we need to understand what we're talking about. But even when it does, even when there's patient outcome up, I don't think MVP means terrible quality and right life threatening exactly. Be Looking for that very early. So if we're going to go and do something, MVP doesn't mean we're going to put something in a surgeon's hands and they're going to be killing several patients in order for us to get to wait to be yeah, that to will clearly so, I think in the world of medical devices and think of the world of biotech and farmer it's why we do so much research and testing. Sure I know that very often starts on animals and so on in order to get to humans. That's just a given in the healthcare industry, but I think it's a it's a it's a crutch elsewhere. I think ninety percent of the time healthcares no different to any other industry. I think it's one where we can understand the risk we're taking and still get an MVP to market that's high enough quality to be acceptable. Yep, absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. And I do that push back of you know, what we're talking about with the MVP is something that's safe. It just doesn't have every bell and whistle, every feature and functionality that's going to make you feel really good about what you're bringing the market and in from...

...a like an ego standpoint, but it's going to be, to your point, enough to get some customers to validate the the the business model. Yes, absolutely, and in big industries. Just to give you another example, in say the healthcare pay or space, innovation there is largely around the payment model. It's got very little to do with anything other than thinking about insurance in different ways or thinking about how data is is presented or how population health is as best of the stood in terms of yeah, so, apologies roxy so. So I think we just have to understand which particular bit of healthcare we're talking about. It's a giant industry. I read a nice article recently saying and had a hundred and twenty seven subindustries and sixty of those are over a billion dollars. So we shouldn't really talk pejoratively about healthcare is if it's entity. My goodness, that is so true, right, no different than the aging population kind of being lumped together and kind of lumping healthcare together. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that segmentation is just so important critical. Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about pilots and healthcare. What does a health innovator need to know to make sure that they are getting the getting a pilot, getting the right pilot, and making sure that they're getting the results of that pilot relationship that they're looking for? Yeah, it's a really good question. So pilots have had an interesting history and I'm we've got a little bit of tiredness around pilots, on both the start upside and on the pilot take aside these days, because there's so many you know, test the idea and it looks as if it's a safe way to go, but it can be problematic. So first of all, make sure your pilot is with the tribe you want to test it with. You don't want to say yes to everybody. If it doesn't fit your persona doesn't fit the market you really want to serve, don't do it. When you do who, I think you want to try and do it on a paid basis if you can. You know it's not fully paid. You want to try and make sure that it's partly paid and your costs are covered. It'll played better if you look at the seek outside investment free pilots. I think our problem all the way down the line will come back to haunt you. Yeah, and I'm a big fan in pilot so of actually writing a pilot of agreement that says here's what we're trying to achieve. So we've got clear objectives of the pilot. We've got what the the startup company, will be doing in terms of its corresponsibilities, what you expect the pilot entity to be doing, and then what are the metrics by which we're going to measure that? And if we hit them that we've even got a mechanism to say we're going to convert it into away from pilot into a full operational sale. So you can bake that in really the at the beginning when you write a good agreement. Don't need to be along agreement. I've seen very good agreements on two pages objectives. Here's what we're going to do. Each of us responsibilities on both sides of the fence, the metrics by which we're going to measure and the conversion mechanism. If we hit these targets. Will agree this pricing, for example? Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. We're talking a lot about best practices when it comes to commercialize and in innovation. Who are some companies out there or leaders that are doing it well? Do you have anyone that comes to mind that you're saying hey, innovator, you're in the trenches right now. This is some baddy to you. Know, you might not have the same business model, but this might be something to somebody to at least look at, because they are either beating the odds or their destined to beat the odds. Yeah, there's actually a almost too many to mention. There are companies that are getting their customer right and are going in a very good direction. I mean it's not constrained to healthcare, of course, but you've only got to go and look at the high velocity companies that are actually growing their revenue line, not their investment line. So when I see headlines they are about I raise twenty...

...million or fifty million or whatever the number, I'm not impressed because they raise money. I'm impressed because their revenue numbers look good. So if you think about the fast growth growth companies, let's use Oscar health as a good example of that. They found a need in the market place and went after it and chase revenue very hard. You know in that section. I don't need to single them out particularly, but I think, yeah, a good example of being very customer acquisition focused, and I think it's the companies in healthcare that are doing that. There's a lot of them in the social determinus of health area, in population health, in health. I ai that. I think I've got the same model. That's well worth emulation. When you're a you know, a tiny company trying to start up in the space. Again, I'm sorry, keeps anchoring back to it. It's back to customer acquisition and the revenue line more than how much capital do I need to go and survive for as long as I need to in this difficult industry. That's the wrong mentality for my money. MMM, MMM, yeah, so so John. I think we're getting to the end of our time here today and I want to just kind of throw out one last question for you. We've got so many of our listeners that are in the trenches right now. Is there anything else that you would want to share with them? I'd like to go back to find that paid point. I think that comes down to being aware. So if you're working in healthcare and you might be a nurse, you might be a trainee doctor, a doctor or someone else on the business side, it doesn't matter. Or maybe use have had some experience of the healthcare system. We don't work in it, but you have, one of your family members, for example, use it. Pay attention to the pain points that you've experienced, make note, carry a book around with you and try and think about those, because there are new and better ways of doing things and the careful identification of those big pain points that you see can be incredible opportunities to start a company, pivot towards something or just get, you know, from a to be very quickly to joy bind industry with fantastic opportunities within it, but you've got to pay attention so that that would be my one piece of advice. Okay, excellent. So how can folks who want to, may be, follow up with you after or get a copy of your book? Where do they go? Sure so the books on Amazon. It's on bonds of noble, it's elsewhere. You know all that stuff about good bookstores. It's available on the kindle version as well as a physical the there's a website dedicated to it. It's it's wwwsscom. My contact details of their. I'm on Linkedin, on John Without an Hjoen but and elsewhere on social media. So people should be able to find me. I'm not hard to find online. Well, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with our listeners today. I know that there are many golden nuggets that have been peppered in throughout our conversation that folks will be able to pick up on and implement into their own strategy. Well. Thank you very much, rocks. I've enjoyed it very much. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and your attention. To save time and get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening, and I appreciate everyone who's been sharing the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Coiq.

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