Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 1 year ago

Why Every Innovator Needs a Framework: Key Checkpoints and Tips for Success w/ Jon Warner


It’s no secret that innovating in healthcare is a completely different beast than other industries. That’s why it’s so important for innovators to work inside a framework, making sure they’re covering the most important considerations on their path.

And inside that framework lies a series of checkpoints and critical needs that innovators can’t afford to ignore.

On this episode, we’re joined by Jon Warner, CEO of Silver Moonshots and author of 40 books, most recently “SLAM: Build your startup idea or early stage business with the Startup Launch Assistance Map.” We cover some huge topics for innovators, including:

  • How to make sure you’re accounting for upstream and downstream issues, instead of creating a single-point solution that’s never adopted
  • Having a deep understanding of your market so that you can hyper-target the people whose “hair is on fire” — the ones who really need your solution the most
  • The critical need to get as much traction and velocity as possible so that you can rise above the noise


Guest Bio

Jon Warner is the CEO of virtual startup accelerator Silver Moonshots. Silver Moonshots works with entrepreneurs who are focused on solving for older adult issues, allowing Jon to focus on his passion of making life better for the 50-and-older population.

As a serial entrepreneur, he has several other roles, including Co-Founder of BetterLife Remedies and Adjunct Professor and Mentor in Entrepreneurship at the University of Redlands.

Jon has been in the healthcare industry for more than 30 years, where he started his career on the business side, helping healthcare organizations build more efficient systems and processes.

To learn more about SLAM and buy your own copy, check out his website You can also connect with him on LinkedIn.

Welcome to Coiq, where you learnhow health innovators maximize their success. I'm your host, Dr Roxy, founderof Legacy DNA and international bestselling author of how health innovators maximize market success.Through candid conversations with health innovators, earlier, doctors and influencers, you'll learn howto bring your innovation from my idea to start up to market domination.And now let's jump into the latest episode of Coiq. Welcome back to theshow coiq listeners. On today's episode we have John Warner with us. Heis the CEO of Silver Moon shots and let me make sure I get thisright, he is also a professor of business and entrepreneurship the author of fortyplus books, including his most recent publication, the Book Slam. Welcome to theshow, John. Thank you very much, rock SHAG's great to behere. Thank you. So I always like to start off by, youknow, having our guests tell our listeners a little bit about themselves, andso if you don't mind sharing a little bit about what you do and someof your background. Okay. Well, let me start with the background,because that's easy. In terms of how I got here, I had acorporate career for a long while, until I was in my early thirty pees. I actually worked in the old industry of all places, but got boredwith that. I just felt I was waiting for a whole bunch of jobsthat I didn't want. So when I'men to manage from consulting for a littlewhile, and that's what got me involved with healthcare very early on I startedworking. In those days there was a lot of business process reengineering, soI was working on the business side of healthcare trying to help major hospital systems, insurance systems, from sort of companies, by Atteck for that matter, getto more efficient processes and systems, and that led me into the entirehealthcare system, slowly but surely, and I've been in it now for thebest part of thirty years. And then within that space my passion is forthe fifty plus population. I just think there's a ton of unmet needs inthat population that we don't solve for entrepreneurily, and it's my career has gone on. I've been swimming from very large systems and the healthcare sides are smallerand smaller companies. So these days I work mainly with startup companies, nerdystage companies who are trying to disrupt healthcare in some way, and in particularI focused on that fifty plus population and how to make their lives better.So that's the quick summary. That's wonderful. There's so many problems out there forus to help solve. Right there are just a legion of them andwe don't spend enough time focused on it. You know. I know the olderadult population accounts for most of the spending healthcare it but it certainly doesn'tget anywhere near the equivalent attention. Yeah, Yep, absolutely, and we'll kindof dive in a little bit later on some of that market segmentation andhow important those nuances are. So can you explain from your perspective what howwould you describe what's happening in healthcare innovation right now in two thousand and twentyand kind of in you know, in the past year? Yeah, andeven a little bit longer than that. I think we had a major changereally about ten years ago with a couple of things. I think the Internetbecame ubiquitous and I think that was led largely by smart devices being made available. You know, in two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight andthen beyond it. So I think digital health is as got a lot ofpotential in all of its forms. So I think we're starting to see inroads into healthcare particular in terms of rendering solutions and innovations that make patients liveseasier, better and even cheaper. The...

...problem is it's a slow ship toturn. We have a healthcare system that's a hundred and fifty years old andit feels like it's creaking and can't change at all at once. We've gotto do it progressively. So this is a revolution from below and I thinkyou'll start to see a lot of these smaller companies become big companies over timeand they will ultimately disrupt the the larger players in the space or displace themif they don't move past off themselves, which is why you're now seeing adoptionin the larger systems as well. HMM, yeah, Yep, absolutely. SoI talked a lot about this statistic that's really that I came across yearsago that really was kind of a catalyst for everything that I do, thatninety five percent of innovations that are brought to market fail to reach any adequatelevel of customer acceptance or financial profitability. So from Europe, I mean that'sthat's alarming right in. So the odds are not necessarily in our favor.From your perspective, why do you think some healthcare innovations fail and why somesucceed? Yes, good question. So it's even worse in healthcare than thosestatistics. And you know, sadly, because healthcare is such a regulated industryand of course you're playing with people's lives. So you know it's rightly so,that it's got more regulation than others, but it does make it runs slower. I think the the big thing that I notice is that, althoughthere's a lot of innovation around healthcare, I think the worry that I have, and I'm not alone in this, is that we see far too manypoint solutions, so in other words, a problem that's very narrow, thatgets solved, but doesn't solve for the flow around it. So an examplewhere that would be saying, well, I can solve a particular chronic conditionin a patient without thinking that all the way through, from beginning to end, and all the touch points that are necessary in terms of rendering that solutionto be effective and efficient. You can't just fix one problem. You've actuallygot to go and think up streaming downstream and then solve for that. So, yeah, that's where innovation has to go. Hmmm, in so itsounds like you're saying that you think that that's like a pretty big gap,that we're thinking about it in terms of a single point solution. Why doyou think health innovators are missing that? What's missing for us to be thinkingabout that upfront? Yeah, I think partly it's knowledge. I think thehealthcare system is that it lives through symptoms of, you know, a Pakein terms of understanding it in all of its complexity. We built a verycomplex system with all sorts of weird rules, not the least of which are pricing, by the way. Right they don't understand how value is transferred.We have a, you know, a deliberately difficult system to understand. Butit's difficult to understand the systems level. So I think a lot of entrepreneursaren't necessarily from the inside and think they can disrupt something but don't have theinside knowledge. And then it's complicated to go and think upstream and downstream.You know, you might think I can solve a diabetes for example, andgo all in on that. But you've got to go and understand that thepeople that are rendering care for diabets are rendering care for many other things atthe same time. So your solution has to take account of that. MMMMYEP, and I would imagine that it's also somewhat difficult for an early stagecompany to think about that from a resource standpoint. Yeah, right, havinghaving the time in the capital to be able to address all of those differentlayers of the problem. That's right. And so what it does is extendyour customer discovery process a it makes it more complicate you because you got toget to a lot more people, but you got to go deeper. Sowhere if you and I were just doing some software solution in a SAPTC market, we might be able to do this very simply. You know, talkto fifty sixty customers quite straightforwardly, do... in three months and really bequite a long way down the road of understanding product market fit. In healthcareyou can double, treble, quadruple that time in terms of number of peopleyou have to talk to and to understand what's going on. So very differentworld to navigate versus a lot of other industries. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I always say that. You know, commercializing and innovation in is in anyindustry, is really difficult, but it's especially challenging when it comes tohealthcare. It's just so many more nuances that we have to face and overcome. Yeah, I'm'll give you a good example just because it's illustrative. Iknow a startup in California and Northern California thought they had a very elegant solutionto deal with in continents and spend all their time talking to the end customerbeing consonant at all, and not because they thought that's how it monetized.But as they dug in, it took them a year to do it,they finally realized than the ends that there was the nurses in care facilities arethe ones that needs to use their solution and if they didn't go and buildit into their work routines, it didn't matter. They weren't deliberately trying togo and leave patients in beds in there in continent stay. They were justoverworked. So what they needed was solution that's sold for their issues at thewider level in order to go and say yes, we're now with you,we want to solve this in consonance problem. They'd finally get there, but ittook them a lot longer than they thought and a lot more effort thanthey thought, even for that simple issue, even though everyone was saying, yes, this is a good idea. So there's two things that come tomine, you know, that you talk about in your book, that Ithink can help overcome that. So one is a framework, a framework formaking those decisions when they're developing, when health innovators are developing their you know, commercialization strategy or plan and, you know, making sure that some ofthose steps don't get overlooked, and then having an expert like you to walkthem through that process, to kind of give them some pushback and help themto think deeper or, you know, kind of stick with it a littlebit longer. Of You know, you've kind of sat down with twenty targetcustomers, but we need maybe thirty more, whatever that would look like. Kindof speak a little bit about what the importance of having a framework andthen the value that an external advisor or consultant could offer. Yeah, okay, so I think the frameworks critical because I think the startup found needs tomake sure they don't miss steps out. There are critical things that can becatastrophically problematic if they're not covered. Call this risk and as a ton ofrisks that you have to mitigate in order to get from a to be soI think it a frameworks important that I think the lean business start up movementdid as a huge favor, you know, more than a decade ago now,in helping US start to go and make frameworks available. What I've donewith the slam model is really done something that's just extending that model a littlebit further, perhaps simplifying a little bit further, so that people can coverthose things in a sequential fashion. I think they can do a lot bythemselves, because my frame was an explorer if you want. It basically saysasked these questions and ask member of as many customers as you possibly can.But then you're right, it does need a certain amount of guidance. SoI think bringing advisors on, both to advise the startup and actually being involvedin the process, is crucible because you need people to push back on yourassumptions and that's the great problem. Individuals think they've got to handle on whatit is they're solving for. And ultimately that you know may not be true, and you don't want to fall in... with your own ideas very earlyon because they're in lies disaster. Absolutely, and I think that you know exactlywhat you're saying is correct, that you know that that third party person, no matter who it is, can help you not fall in love withyour own product and help you overcome some of those internal or inherent biases thatyou might have of you know, two people said they love it, sotherefore I must have a successful business model or I must be solving a realproblem. Absolutely, but there's a very nice book at there called the momtest, which is, you know, it says what the crown founders goand ask mom or dad and say what do you think? Well, Momand dad love you so for the most part, so they're going to say, you know, well, yeah, that's a great idea, I loveit. Yeah, feedback you need right, right, absolutely, and you know, even if it's not your mom and dad, you know who reallywants to tell someone that their babies ugly? Right, that's right. So Ithink that's the round of professional advice, for sure. Can you think ofany examples of when you've worked with health innovators and you've had some ofthose difficult conversations and what that was like. Yeah, so for me it's aregular affair. I run a little virtual accelerator every quarter in which Ihave six companies that are trying to solve for something in the healthcare space,and typically it's an aging as well. So every one of those companies,in fact, we only invite them in when they have a mental readiness toaccept frank feedback, not only from me but from the mentors in the group. So that could be peer venturing and it's your ugly baby comment. It'sjust we all agree that we're not going to be precious about what we're puttingforward. If we can't see it, we don't get it, we're goingto say as much. So every company gets that kind of feedback at thebeginning, if only to test the you know, the hypotheses. Yeah,tell me why I get deeper. Tell me more so that and then testthat. Now, show me that you've got ten customers that said their hairson fire in terms of wanting that product or service that you're rendering. Andif you can do that, you're going to get a long way if youcan't think again. So again and again and again and in fact in thein the cohort. Every time I do a cohort I think someone's going tosort of emerge without a pivot, but they end up with mini pivots ata, you know, one level and in some cases very major ones,usually at the end of a six sweet sprint. So pretty regular. Youknow, I think that even for myself, I can think of advisors and canassultants that I've worked with and you know, when they push back onmy ideas or my plan and say I need a little bit more detail here, you know sometimes it's so frustrating because I just want to be done withit and move on to the next thing. And I think a lot of entrepreneursare really fast paced and either often want to skip strategy all together andjust get to the tactics or kind of develop the strategy as quick as possibleand get to the tactics and in it's it's a frustrating wrestling kind of experience, but it always ends up richer and better for that process. Yeah,agreed, and I think the problem is that people, apart from falling inlove with their own idea. There's a legacy cost, right. So thefurther in you get, the more you're you've got the investment of all ofthe effort that you've made into your one hypotheses that you've assumed is correct.It's really hard to go and say to anybody, why don't you go backand throw away what might be a year, or year and a half or twoyears worth of work, because pace foundational. So I call it theunmet needstep one on the slam map, and just rip that up. Itmay not be right and that's tough for a lot of people to do becausethat's invested. Yeah, I'd rather just...

...throw another million or two add itand feel like I'm heading in the right direction then to realize that I've wasteda million or two and start over right, exactly. Yeah, definitely lie.Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation.Do you want your innovation to succeed, to change lives, to shape thefuture of healthcare? I want that for every health innovator, which is whyI invented Coyq and evidence based framework to take your innovation from an idea tostart up to full market adoption. If you're not sure where you are inthe commercialization process, take the free assessment now at Dr Roxycom backslash score.Don't miss out on impacting more lives just because you have a low coiq score. The Free Assessment is at Dr Roxycom backslash score. That's Dr Roxiecom backslashscore. And now let's jump back into the conversation. So I want to, you know, kind of take the conversation a little bit deeper into someof the nuances of a commercialization plan, in some of the strategies and tacticaldecisions that are in your slam framework and say, you know, let's lookat targeting. What are some of the strategies, are best practices around defininga market that they're that a health innovator is going to target, choosing betweenone or, you know, another one? And then also, if you couldjust kind of speak to you, what are some of the barriers orthe obstacles of getting that right that you often see? Yeah, okay,so I mentioned it in passing. Step one on the slam map actually hasgot at least five times more the power of any of the others, andthe reason for that is because people need to know what problem they're solving forand it's got three subparts for it, and I'm going to go all inthis. I'm going to use my space, the aging space, as Yaps.Well, I know you and I have talked about this roxy before.Yeah, the older adult market, the fifty plus. It's a hundred andfifteen million people in the US right now and so you can't really treat thatas one MOLITHIC hoole. It's not a pejorative hole. You know, givingthem labels like boomers and seniors doesn't help. It reduces a bit, but itdoesn't help. It makes gigantic. So the trick, I always think, with the unmet need is to understand how hypothesis about something. There's apain point out there or something that people need to gain. But the realquestion is which people, which tribe within that population, is the one thatcares the most, and you can define that demographically or psychographically or in otherways. So it could be. I'm just going to focus on females.I'm going to focus on people in their sevent is. I'm going to focuson people that are tall or short, it really doesn't matter, but havea basis to go and reduce the size of the population so that they're reachableand hopefully they're the ones with their hair most on fire, to use thatsame phrase again, so you can build a customer persona around that person goingall in on that is the game of entrepreneurship for me, because I thinkgetting to a small tribe and counter inturgibly, the smaller it gets, the betterit is, is going to help you so much later because your capacityto sell to it's going to be so much easier and as you get later, in terms of the Slam Mat step too is build your team around that. Well, you're recruiting your team on the basis of that particular beach headmarket, that particular persona, and their knowledge of that and how to reachit and how to engage with it. And then your value proposition in stepthree is going to be completely aligned them with what their needs are. Andnot just today, but in terms of...

...your product pipeline, as you're buildingout how it's going to literate and improve as you get further down the path. You can add markets to it later. It may well be, you know, taking something like the facebook story that you know you can get tothe world and get two millie two billion people on your platform, but Idon't. I can't think of a single start up that ever got there thatquickly, even if it was a fairly viral growth curve. They always startedwith a narrow segment. In facebook's case it was first year Harvard males.That was it, and they spent their first six months doing nothing but that. Not Try and spoil the ocean. Yeah, and I think that whatwe're talking about now is is so obvious, but yet it's really often overlooked.I was just having a conversation with someone a couple weeks ago and theyhad three markets that, from their perspective, they could pursue. That the therewas the the problem that they were looking to solve. Three different marketsegments were experiencing and their approach was, you know, I have a fewrelationships here, few relationships they are few relationships here, and so it reallywasn't strategically looked at like what are the competitors and each one of those segmentsand, like you said, which one of these have their hair on fire, which ones are like really looking for a solution, versus the ones thatI'm going to have to go and try to persuade them and convince them thatthey have a problem that we can solve. And then, you know, theirearly stage start up and so they were burning through cash like crazy doinga little bit. And these three different markets right, because they've got differentmessaging and positioning and I mean just so many different things, and I justthought like this is a this is a red flag, this is one ofthose pitfalls that again, seems so obvious, but are real problems for that helpus, that prevent us from, you know, changing the odds ofthose successes. That's right and I think it's it's fundamentally you need to thinkabout it and resolves constrained terms. You've only got so much time and bandwidthand money or other resources available when you're a startup. You're not a bigcompany. You can throw a lot of money at things. Typically, yeah, if you can. You don't want to sort of spray your bullets everywhere, to use that analogy, and hope, yeah, target. So for methe greatest frustration is someone that says, you know, I think everyone's goingto love this or, even worse, I'm going to go be to Cand B, to be at the same time cracking now completely different marketplaces, and then as you put B to be to see in the middleof those. That's a different one. Again, it's not only getting narrow, it's actually saying, well, let's try and do this in a sequentialfashion so we can get conversion in the end. What investors want out ofcompanies in any industry, not just healthcare, is customer acquisition. Yeah, sosaying I've got a lot, a lot of targets sounds like it's attractive. You know, look at all the targets I could reach. It isn't. Most investors saying no, go to an incredibly narrow target and convinced youcan get a hundred customers. Yeah, we'll invest in you, it's allright, right, right, yeah, oh my goodness, I had thatconversation to because I work with folks that say, Oh, the market potentialis one billion and all we need is three percent, and they you know, like that's going to be the persuasive story. It's like, no,that's where we're running exactly. So let's talk about what are some of what, if some of the other strategies that you are and recommend for health innovatorsthat are in the trenches right now that are building out those go to marketand commercialization plans. Okay, so later on, once you've actually got soin, when people look at the the slam map, they'll see those firstthree steps I mentioned. I met need the team that's going to solve theproblem. The value proposition are the three things that are in product market fit. You spend all your time on those.

The rest is really understanding the marketyou're entering. So what customer discoveries doing for you in a deep riskingsense is making sure you've done several things. A number one you've got to sizeyour market. How big is it really? You mentioned you know there'sa billion dollar mark out here. I rarely believe those kinds of numbers becausethat might be what a total market is, at a total addressable market level.Yeah, what's your reachable market is a very different number and that needsresearch. So people should be doing a lot of sizing and carefully doing so. Go to market is then obviously very important. I can't believe how manystartups tell me that they're going to big things up on facebook or use SEOto solve this. In markets where people aren't even searching on Google or noteven looking at facebook, there are multiple marching channels, you've really go andgo and pick the few that can reach your customer tribe. Yeah, andthat takes work and research, of course, and then you're going to be divinginto your customer requisition costs in those channels and then your long term valueyou can create and making sure those numbers are available. Pricing is then reallyimportant, and that's not just sort of arbitrarily just slapping a price on yourproductal service. It's about the value you're adding and then what share of thatvalue you're going to take in order to render the service you are that isa lot of careful work. And then, finally, it's about, for me, getting into the ecosystem, understanding the market you're entering and how arethey going to react to your entry to it. So in some cases that'sobvious. Competitors are going to be making, you know, moves against what you'redoing and you should know who they are and what they're going to door at least predict try and project it. But their influences in the market.There's buyers in the market and there are there are other sort of influencesthat are around, so you really want to map all of that. Ilove to draw the ecosystem in a very detail fashion so we could understand it, and that's particularly important in healthcare because it's typically so complicated. Yeah,yeah, and that makes so much sense to overcome the challenge that you mentionedearlier in our conversation about you know, I'm targeting one group and as Idig into it I realize that those aren't going to be those decisionmakers and Icould have had an entire robust plan for the for the wrong market. That'sright. Wrong market or, and you make a very good point, orwrong decision maker in healthcare. There's a couple of things that often cause minipivots. One is with we're targeting particular customer and that customer isn't the buyer. They're an influence, sir, but it's somebody else who's the bars arewho actually holds the money and got a final decision. or it might bea team by in healthcare, I find half the time it's a team by, and you better understand that. How the team plays together? Yeah,because they recommend to each other. So if they're going to go an adopta system and pay us as for a thousand dollars of month or tenzero dollarsa month, you might have to get to five people. So it's reallyimportant to understand who those five people are in a given industry, for example. Yeah, absolutely, and those five people might have different point pain pointsthat there's looking to solve, for right, different messaging, yes, well,and, if not, different pain points, different criteria by which theymake a judgment. So I'm the CFO as opposed to an exactly director,as opposed to achieve medical officer. I've got completely different criteria that I'm usingto judge what I get out of this. So then it's about the the differentiators. It's about the value proposition of making sure it's pitched in such away is those different stakeholders in the decision thing. Ah, this is goingto give me a real benefit here. So I'm prepared to go and,you know, write my signature on the purchase order. Yep, Yep,absolutely. So we talked earlier about this explosion of innovation that's happening in healthcare. In what I find to be one of the challenges is rising above thenoise. Right, you know, there there's innovation taking place in a lotin other and all other verticals, but... healthcare. It seems to beso concentrated it right. So instead of, you know, knocking on someone's doorand it being kind of the third innovation solution that they've seen this month, it could be the third pitch that they've had in the last hour.So really being able to rise above the noise is extremely critical. Do youhave any guidance on how health innovators can rise above the noise? So forme that's really simple, because I think the best thing you can do isto get as much traction and belocity as you can, and that sounds difficult, but it's not as difficult as you think. It's about getting your beachheadcustomers on platform, on your products, in your service. Now that canbe a gerrymandered solution. It really doesn't matter as long as you've actually gotreal, live people using the service. That's the best credentialer of all.So as I sit and I you know I actually work in the investment community, both the angel level and institutional level, I'd say as many as eight outof ten and pictures that I see special early stage ventures say we've gotcustomers coming soon. I'd rather than tell me they've got ten customers even onlyten and here's what we've learned. Or I've got thirty, but there theyhappen to be all my friends right now. Or what have you learned from thosefriends? That's, yeah, better outcome than I've got a ton ofmoney in the bank but I've got no customers. So I think that's thebiggest de risker able. Yeah, yeah, and I think you kind of alludeto this idea of, you know, eventually we get to the whole productconfiguration, but in the early stage, you know, going back to leanstart up this MVP right. And it's interesting. I feel like thisis a very lively topic in healthcare because, and I interested to know what yourperspective is on this, but you know, when you talk about MVPand other industries, everyone's like, yeah, that makes sense, let's do it, and then in healthcare they're like, oh, would what we're talking about? Patients live, so we can't do minimum viable product. We needto have the whole in Chilada, and and so just kind of talk alittle bit about that. You know, what is an MVP and how canyou do an MVP and healthcare and still not put people's lives at risk?Yeah, so the one thing we've got to be careful about in health careis that you're right. This is a complete defense mechanism to go and saywe deal with people's lives. World not ecent a healthcare doesn't deal with people'slives. It's a giant industry. We spent three and a half trillion.At least ninety percent of that is spend on this systems that render care topatients. At the end. Not Everything's a life threatening event. So Ithink we need to understand what we're talking about. But even when it does, even when there's patient outcome up, I don't think MVP means terrible qualityand right life threatening exactly. Be Looking for that very early. So ifwe're going to go and do something, MVP doesn't mean we're going to putsomething in a surgeon's hands and they're going to be killing several patients in orderfor us to get to wait to be yeah, that to will clearly so, I think in the world of medical devices and think of the world ofbiotech and farmer it's why we do so much research and testing. Sure Iknow that very often starts on animals and so on in order to get tohumans. That's just a given in the healthcare industry, but I think it'sa it's a it's a crutch elsewhere. I think ninety percent of the timehealthcares no different to any other industry. I think it's one where we canunderstand the risk we're taking and still get an MVP to market that's high enoughquality to be acceptable. Yep, absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more.And I do that push back of you know, what we're talking aboutwith the MVP is something that's safe. It just doesn't have every bell andwhistle, every feature and functionality that's going to make you feel really good aboutwhat you're bringing the market and in from...

...a like an ego standpoint, butit's going to be, to your point, enough to get some customers to validatethe the the business model. Yes, absolutely, and in big industries.Just to give you another example, in say the healthcare pay or space, innovation there is largely around the payment model. It's got very little todo with anything other than thinking about insurance in different ways or thinking about howdata is is presented or how population health is as best of the stood interms of yeah, so, apologies roxy so. So I think we justhave to understand which particular bit of healthcare we're talking about. It's a giantindustry. I read a nice article recently saying and had a hundred and twentyseven subindustries and sixty of those are over a billion dollars. So we shouldn'treally talk pejoratively about healthcare is if it's entity. My goodness, that isso true, right, no different than the aging population kind of being lumpedtogether and kind of lumping healthcare together. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, thatsegmentation is just so important critical. Yeah, so let's talk a little bit aboutpilots and healthcare. What does a health innovator need to know to makesure that they are getting the getting a pilot, getting the right pilot,and making sure that they're getting the results of that pilot relationship that they're lookingfor? Yeah, it's a really good question. So pilots have had aninteresting history and I'm we've got a little bit of tiredness around pilots, onboth the start upside and on the pilot take aside these days, because there'sso many you know, test the idea and it looks as if it's asafe way to go, but it can be problematic. So first of all, make sure your pilot is with the tribe you want to test it with. You don't want to say yes to everybody. If it doesn't fit yourpersona doesn't fit the market you really want to serve, don't do it.When you do who, I think you want to try and do it ona paid basis if you can. You know it's not fully paid. Youwant to try and make sure that it's partly paid and your costs are covered. It'll played better if you look at the seek outside investment free pilots.I think our problem all the way down the line will come back to hauntyou. Yeah, and I'm a big fan in pilot so of actually writinga pilot of agreement that says here's what we're trying to achieve. So we'vegot clear objectives of the pilot. We've got what the the startup company,will be doing in terms of its corresponsibilities, what you expect the pilot entity tobe doing, and then what are the metrics by which we're going tomeasure that? And if we hit them that we've even got a mechanism tosay we're going to convert it into away from pilot into a full operational sale. So you can bake that in really the at the beginning when you writea good agreement. Don't need to be along agreement. I've seen very goodagreements on two pages objectives. Here's what we're going to do. Each ofus responsibilities on both sides of the fence, the metrics by which we're going tomeasure and the conversion mechanism. If we hit these targets. Will agreethis pricing, for example? Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. We're talkinga lot about best practices when it comes to commercialize and in innovation. Whoare some companies out there or leaders that are doing it well? Do youhave anyone that comes to mind that you're saying hey, innovator, you're inthe trenches right now. This is some baddy to you. Know, youmight not have the same business model, but this might be something to somebodyto at least look at, because they are either beating the odds or theirdestined to beat the odds. Yeah, there's actually a almost too many tomention. There are companies that are getting their customer right and are going ina very good direction. I mean it's not constrained to healthcare, of course, but you've only got to go and look at the high velocity companies thatare actually growing their revenue line, not their investment line. So when Isee headlines they are about I raise twenty...

...million or fifty million or whatever thenumber, I'm not impressed because they raise money. I'm impressed because their revenuenumbers look good. So if you think about the fast growth growth companies,let's use Oscar health as a good example of that. They found a needin the market place and went after it and chase revenue very hard. Youknow in that section. I don't need to single them out particularly, butI think, yeah, a good example of being very customer acquisition focused,and I think it's the companies in healthcare that are doing that. There's alot of them in the social determinus of health area, in population health,in health. I ai that. I think I've got the same model.That's well worth emulation. When you're a you know, a tiny company tryingto start up in the space. Again, I'm sorry, keeps anchoring back toit. It's back to customer acquisition and the revenue line more than howmuch capital do I need to go and survive for as long as I needto in this difficult industry. That's the wrong mentality for my money. MMM, MMM, yeah, so so John. I think we're getting to the endof our time here today and I want to just kind of throw outone last question for you. We've got so many of our listeners that arein the trenches right now. Is there anything else that you would want toshare with them? I'd like to go back to find that paid point.I think that comes down to being aware. So if you're working in healthcare andyou might be a nurse, you might be a trainee doctor, adoctor or someone else on the business side, it doesn't matter. Or maybe usehave had some experience of the healthcare system. We don't work in it, but you have, one of your family members, for example, useit. Pay attention to the pain points that you've experienced, make note,carry a book around with you and try and think about those, because thereare new and better ways of doing things and the careful identification of those bigpain points that you see can be incredible opportunities to start a company, pivottowards something or just get, you know, from a to be very quickly tojoy bind industry with fantastic opportunities within it, but you've got to payattention so that that would be my one piece of advice. Okay, excellent. So how can folks who want to, may be, follow up with youafter or get a copy of your book? Where do they go?Sure so the books on Amazon. It's on bonds of noble, it's elsewhere. You know all that stuff about good bookstores. It's available on the kindleversion as well as a physical the there's a website dedicated to it. It'sit's wwwsscom. My contact details of their. I'm on Linkedin, on John Withoutan Hjoen but and elsewhere on social media. So people should be ableto find me. I'm not hard to find online. Well, thank youso much for sharing your wisdom with our listeners today. I know that thereare many golden nuggets that have been peppered in throughout our conversation that folks willbe able to pick up on and implement into their own strategy. Well.Thank you very much, rocks. I've enjoyed it very much. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bringyour life changing innovation to market and I value your time and your attention.To save time and get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribeto the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening, and I appreciate everyone who's been sharing the showwith friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Coiq.

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