Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 1 year ago

Why Every Innovator Needs a Framework: Key Checkpoints and Tips for Success w/ Jon Warner


It’s no secret that innovating in healthcare is a completely different beast than other industries. That’s why it’s so important for innovators to work inside a framework, making sure they’re covering the most important considerations on their path.

And inside that framework lies a series of checkpoints and critical needs that innovators can’t afford to ignore.

On this episode, we’re joined by Jon Warner, CEO of Silver Moonshots and author of 40 books, most recently “SLAM: Build your startup idea or early stage business with the Startup Launch Assistance Map.” We cover some huge topics for innovators, including:

  • How to make sure you’re accounting for upstream and downstream issues, instead of creating a single-point solution that’s never adopted
  • Having a deep understanding of your market so that you can hyper-target the people whose “hair is on fire” — the ones who really need your solution the most
  • The critical need to get as much traction and velocity as possible so that you can rise above the noise


Guest Bio

Jon Warner is the CEO of virtual startup accelerator Silver Moonshots. Silver Moonshots works with entrepreneurs who are focused on solving for older adult issues, allowing Jon to focus on his passion of making life better for the 50-and-older population.

As a serial entrepreneur, he has several other roles, including Co-Founder of BetterLife Remedies and Adjunct Professor and Mentor in Entrepreneurship at the University of Redlands.

Jon has been in the healthcare industry for more than 30 years, where he started his career on the business side, helping healthcare organizations build more efficient systems and processes.

To learn more about SLAM and buy your own copy, check out his website You can also connect with him on LinkedIn.

Welcome Tis Coiq, where you learn howhealth innovators maximize their success. I'm your host, Dor Roxy,founder of legacy, DNA and international beath selling author ofhow health innovators maximize market success through panded conversationswith health, innovators, earlie doctors and influencers you'll learn how tobring your innovation from idea to start up to market domination, and now,let's jump into the latest episode of Coiq. Welcome back to the show coiqlisteners on Tay's episode, we have John Warner with us. He is the CEO ofSilver Moon shots and let me make sure I get this right. He is also aprofessor of business, an entrepreneurship, the author of fortyplus books, including his most recent publication, the book slaam welcome tothe show John. Thank you very much Rocko, it's great to be here. Thank you.So I always like to start off by you know having our guest tell ourlisteners a little bit about themselves, and so, if you don't mind sharing alittle bit about what you do and some of your background, okay. Well,let me start with the background, because that's easy in terms of how Igot here. I had a corporate career for a long,while until I was in my early S, I actuallyworked in the ord industry of all places, but got bored with that. I just felt Iwas waiting for a whole bunch of jobs that I didn't want. So when I happenedto Magi from consulting for a little while and that's what got me involvedwith health care very early on, I started working inthose dedays. There was a lot of business process, re engineering, so Iwas working on the business side of healthcare trying to help majorhospital systems, insurance systems, fom soo companies by Attech, for thatmatter, get to more efficient processes andsystems, and that led me into the entire healthcare system. Slowly, butshorely and I've been in it now for the best part of thirty years, and then within that space, my passionis for the fifty plas population. I just think there's a ton of unmetneeds in that population that we don't solve for entrepreneurily and is mycareer's gone on. I've been swimming from veryd large systems and thehealthcare side Jus more and smaller companies. So these days I work mainlywith starlup companies nearly stage companies who are trying to disrupthealthcare in some way, and in particular I focused on that fifty plaspopulation of how to make their lives better. So that's the quick summary.That's wonderful, there's! So many problems out there for us to help solveright. A ther are just a Legien of them and we don't spend enough time focusedon it. You know, I know the older adult population accounts formost of the spending health care, but it certainly doesn't get anywhere nearthe equiment attention, yeah, Yep, absolutely and we'll kind of dive in alittle bit later on some of that market segmentation and how important thosenuances are. So can you explain from your perspective?Would how would you describe what's happening in healthcare innovationright now in two thousand and twenty and kind of in you know in the past year, yeah and Oukow a little bit longer thanthat? I think we had a major change really about ten years ago. With acouple of things, I think the Internet became ubiquitous and I think that wasled largely by smart devices being made available. You know in two thousand andseven two thousand and eight and then beyond it. So I think digital health is has got alot of potential in all of its forms, so I think we're starting to see inroads into health care, particularly in terms of rendering solutions andinnovations that make patients lives easier, better and even cheaper.

The problem is, it's a slowship to turn.We have a healthcare system, that's a hundred and fifty years old, and itfeels like it's creaking and can't change at all at once. We've gotto do it progressively, so this is a revolution from below and I think you'll start to see a lotof these smaller companies become big companies over time and they willultimately disrupt the the larger players in the space ordisplace them if they don't move fast enough themselves, which is why you'renow seing adoption in the larger systems as well mm YepYep absolutely so I talk a lot about this statistic. That's really that Icame across years ago that really was kind of a catalyst for everything thatI do that. Ninety five percent of innovations that are brought to marketfail to reach any adequate level of customer acceptance or financialprofitability. So from Yourp I mean that's, that's alarming right, and sothe odds are not necessarily in our favor. From your perspective, why doyou think some healthcare innovations fail and why some succeed, yeit's goodquestion, so it's even worse in healthcare than those statistics, andyou know, sadly, because healthcare is such a regulated industry and, ofcourse, you're playing with people's live. So you know it'srohly so thatit's got more regulation than others, but it does make it run slower. I thinkth, the big thing that I notice is that, although there's a lot of innovationaround healthcare, I think the worry that I have- and I'm not alone in this-is that we see far too many point solutions so in other words a problemhit's very narrow that get solv but doesn't Solv for the flow around it. Soan example with that will be saying: Will I cansole her particular chroniccondition, an a patention without thinking that all the way through frombeginning to end and all the touch points that are necessary in terms ofrenern asolution to be effective and efficient? You can't justfix one problem. You've actually got to go and think upstream and downstream,and then Solv for that so yeah, that's where innovation has to go an an so it sounds like you're sayingthat you think that that's like a pretty big gap that we're thinkingabout it in terms of a single point solution. Why do you think health innovators aremissing that what's missing for us to be thinking about that upfront yea? Ithink partly it's knowledge. I think the healthcare system is A. I livthrough symptoms of you know a pag in terms of understanding it in all of itscomplexity. We built a very complex system with all sorts of weird rules,not the least of which are pricing. By the way right, we don't understand howvalue is transferred. We have a you know, a deliberately difficult systemto understand, but it's difficult to understand the systems level. So Ithink a lot of entrepreneurs aren't necessarily from the inside and thinkthey can disrupt something but don't have the inside knowledge and then it'scomplicated to go and think up stream and downstream. You know you mightthink I consult the diabeters, for example, and go all in on that, but yougot to go and understand that the people that are rendering care fordiabeters are rendering care for many other things at the same time. So yoursolution has to take account of that MM YEP, and I would imagine that it's alsosomewhat difficult for an early stage company to think about that from a resourcestandpoint, Yep right having having the time and the capital to be able toaddress all of those different layers of the problem. That's right, and sowhat it does is extend your customer Discovery Process Ey. It makes it morecomplicated because you got to get to a lot more people, but you got to godeeper, so whereif. If you and I were just doing some software solution in ina SAPTC market, we might be able to do this. Very simply, you know talk tofour UNDR ND fity. Sixty customers...

...quite straightforwardly do so in threemonths and really be quite a long way down the road of understanding productmarket fit in health care. You can double treble quadrupal that time interms of number of people you have to talk to and to understand, what's goingon, so very different worlds to navigate versus a lot of otherindustries, yeah yeah, absolutely I always say that you knowcommercializing, an innovation. An is in any industry is really difficult,but it's especially challenging when it comes to healthcare. It's just so manymore nuances that we have to face and overcome yeah and I'll. Give you a goodexample. Just because it's illustrative, I know a startup in California.Northern California thought they had a very elegant solution to deal withincontinents and spend all their time talking to the end customer theinconsonant Adol, and not because they thought that's how it manotized, but asthey dug in it, took them a year to do it. They finally realized, then the endthat the was the nurses in care facilities theyre, the ones that needto t use their solution and if they didn't go and build it into their workroutines, it didn't matter they weren't deliberately trying to go and leave popatients in beds in their incontinent tat. They were just overworked, so whatthey ned was solution that sold for their issues at the wider level. Inorder to go and say yes, we're now with you, we want to solve this inconsinent's problem d. They finally get there, but it took them a lot longerthan they thought and a lot more effort than they thought. Even for that simpleissue, even though everyone was saying yes, this is a good idea. So there'stwo things that come to mind. You know that you talk about in your book that I think can help overcombat. So one is aframework, a framework for making those decisions when they're developing whenhealth innevators are developing their. You know commercialization strategy orplan, and you know making sure that some of those steps don't getoverlooked and then having an expert like you to walk them through that process, tokind of give them some pushback and help them to think deeper, or you know kind of stick with it. Alittle bit longer of you know, you've kind of sat down with twenty targetcustomers, but we need maybe thirty more whatever. That would look likekind of speak a little bit about what the importance of having a frameworkand then the value that an external advisor or consultant could offer yeah.Okay, so I think the framewoks critical, because I think the STARTU Founde needsto make sure they don't miss steps out. There are critical things that can becatastrophically problematic if they're not covered call this risk and there'sa ton of risks that you have to Mitogat. You know toget for me to be so. I thinkin it a framewats important and I think the lean business start up movement Idus, a huge favor. You know more than a decade a go now in helping US start togo and make frameworks available. What I've done with the slam model is reallydone. Something that's just extending that model a little bit further,perhaps simplifying it little bit further, so that people can cover thosethings in a sequential fashion. I think they can do a lot by themselves,because my train mos an exploraryou one. It basically says ask these questionsand ask theme of as many customers as you possibly can, but then you're right.It does need a certain amount of guidance. So I think bringing advisorson both to advise the startup and actuallybeing involved in the process is crugual, because you need people topush back on new rassumptions and that's the great problem. Individualsthink they've got ta handle on what it is they're solving for and, ultimatelythat you know, may not be true and you...

...don't want to fall in Lup with your ownideas very early on, because they're in lie disaster. Absolutely- And I think that you know exactly whatyou're saying is correct- that you know that that third party person, no matterwho it is, can help you not fall in love with your own product and help youovercome some of those internal or inherent biases that you might have of you know two people said they loveit. So, therefore I must have a successful business model or I must besolving a real problem. Absolutely that is a very nice book out. There calledthe mom test, which is you know, whic says a lot of fan, founders, go ind,Sayuts, Mam or dad and say what do you think well Mam and dad love you so forthe most part, so they're going to say you know well, yeah, that's a greatidea. I love it. Yeah be back. You need right right! Absolutely, and you know,even if it's not your mom and dad, you know who really wants to tell someonethat their babies ugly right a the remo professional advice for sor.Can you think of any examples of when you've worked with health, innovatorsand you've had some of those difficult conversations and what that was likeyeah. So for me, it's a regular affair. I run little virtual accelerator everyquarter in which I have six companies that are tryng to Solv, for somethingat the healthcare space and typically its an aging as well, so every one of those compans. In fact,we only invite the Min when they have a mental readiness to accept FrankFreedback, not only from me but from the mentals in the group, so thikecould be happier venturing and it's your ugly baby comment. It'sjust. We all agree that we're not going to be precious about what we're puttingforward. If we can't see it, we don't get it we're going to say as much so.Every company gets that kind of feeback at the beginning. If I oly to test theThe you know, the Hypothee dsease yeah tell me why I get deeper. Tell me more so that and then test that now show methat you've got ten customers. That said, their hairs on fire and in terms of wanting that productarl service that you're rendering and if you can do that, you're going to geta long way, if you can't think again so again and again and again and in factin the in th the cohor every time I do a cobot, I think someone's going tosort of emerge without a pivot, but they end up with mini pivots. At a youknow, one level and in some cases very major ones, usually at the end of a sixweeks print so pretty regular. You know, I think that even for myself,I can think of advisors and consultants that I've worked with, and you knowwhen they push back on my ideas or my plan and say I need a little bit moredetail here. You know sometimes it's so frustrating because I just want to bedone with it and move on to the next thing, and I think a lot ofentrepreneurs are really fast paced and either oftenwant to skip strategy all together and just get to the tactics or kind ofdevelop the strategy as quick as possible and get to the tactics and init's it's a frustrating wrestling kind of experience, but it always ends upricher and better for that process. Yeah agreed, and Ithink the problem is that people R, apart from falling in love with theirown idea, there's a legacy cost right. So the further in you get the more you've got the investment ofall of the effort that you've made into your one hy pottis that you pesumed iscorrect. It's really hard to go and say to anybody Wyn't you go back and throwaway what might be a year or a year and a half R, two years worth of workbecause base foundation al. So I called it the UNMAD NED STAP, one on t I lammap and just rip that up. It may not beright and that's tough for a lot of people todo because Het's Somin vested yeah yeah...

I'd rather just throw another millionor two at it and feel like I'm heading in the right direction, then torerealize that I've wasted a million or two and start over right. Xacty yeah.Definitely Hey! It's Dr Roxy! Here with a quickbreak from the conversation. Do you want your innovation to succeed tochange lives to shape the future of health care? I want that for everyhealth innovator, which is why I invented Coyq an evidence basedframework to take your innovation from an idea to start up to t e full marketadoptions, if you're, not sure where you are in the commercializationprocess. Take the free assessment now at Dr Roxycom back four: Don't miss outon impacting more lives just because you have a low coiq score. The freeassessment is that Dr Roxycom xl, four that's Dr Rox IECOM backslash sc oreand now, let's jump back into the conversation, so I want to you know kind of take theconversation a little bit deeper into some of the nuances of acommercialization plan in some of the the strategies and tactical decisionsthat are in your slam framework and say you know, let's look at targeting what are some of the strategies or bestpractices around definding, a market that theyre that a health innovator isgoing to target choosing between one or you know another one and then also ifyou could just kind of speak to you. What are some of the the barriers orthe obstacles of getting that right that you often see yeah. Okay, so Imentioned it in passing step one. The Slam Mam actually has got at least fivetimes more. The power O of any of the others, and the reason for that isbecause people need to know what problem they're solving for, and it'sgot three subparts for it, and I'm going to go all niw this I'm going touse my space. The aging space as as ACTL I know you and I have talked aboutthis rockly before yeah, the older adult market, the fifty plas it's ahundred and fifteen million people in the US right now, and so you can'treally treat that as one molithic whole. It's not a prejoritive hole, you knowgiving them. Labels like boomers and seniors doesn't help it reduces it abit, but it doesn't help. It makes me gigantic. So the trick, I always thinkwith the unmet need is to understand, have a hypothesis about something,there's a pain point out there or something that people need to gain. Butthe real question is which people which t tribe within that population is theone that cares the most and you can define that demographically orpsychographically or in other ways. So it could be. I'm just going to focus onfemales, I'm going to focus on people in their seventies, I'm going to focuson people that are tall or short. It really doesn't matter but have a basisto go and reduce the size of the population, so that they're reachableand hopefully they're the ones with their hair most on fire. To use thatsame phrase again, so you can build a customer persone around that persongoing all in on. That is the game of entrepreneurship. For me, because Ithink getting to a the small tribe and counterinchur IBE, the Marle it getsthe better it is, is going to help you so much later,because you're capacity to sell to it's going to be so much easier and as youget later in terms of the slam map that step to is build your team around thatwell you're recruiting your team on the basis of that particular beachheadmarket, that particular persona and their knowledge of that, and how toreach it and how to engage with it. And then your value proposition and stepthrough is going to be completely aliging them with what their needs areand not just today, but in terms of...

...your product pipeline is Youre,building out how it's going to iterate and improve as you get further Dan tedo the path you can add markets to it later. It may well be you know, takingSOM like the facebook story, that you know you can get to the world and gettwo milot two billion people on your platform, but I can't think of a singlestartup that ever got there that quickly, even if it was a pairly viralgrowth pr curve, they always started with a narrow segment. In facebookscase it was first year Harvard males that was it and they spent their firstsix months doing nothing, but that not trying to boil the ocean yeah yeah,and I think that what we're talking about now is is so obvious, but yetit's really often overlooked. I was just having a conversation with someonea couple weeks ago and they had three markets that from their perspectivethey could pursue. He. There was the problem that they were looking to solve.Three different market segments were experiencing and their approach was.You know. I have a few relationships here. Few relationships there fewrelationships here, and so it really wasn't strategically looked at like what arethe competitors in each one of those segments and, like you said, which oneof these have their hair on fire, which ones are like really looking for asolution versus the ones that I'm going to have to go and try to persuade themand convince them that they have a problem that we can solve, and then youknow their early stage start up, and so they were burning through cash likecrazy doing a little bit in these three different markets right, becausethey've got different messaging and positioning, and I mean just so manydifferent things, and I just thought like this is a this is a red flag. Thisis one of those pitfalls that again seems so obvious, but or real problemsfor that help. US that prevent us from you know changing the odds of thosesuccesses. That's right and I think it's it's fun damentally. You need tothink about it in resolte constrained terms. You've only got so much time andband width and money or other resources available when you're a startup you're,not a big company. You can throw a lot of money at things. Typically Yeah. Ifyou can, you don't want to sort of spray, your bullets everywhere to usethat analogy in Eyea barget. So for me, the greatest frustration is someonethat says you know, I think everyone's going to love this or even words, I'mgoing to go, be to see M B to be at the same time, back in our completelydifferent marketplaces and, as you put Btb Toce in the middle of, thoughthat's a different one again, it's not only getting narrow. It's actuallysaying. Well, let's try and do this in a sequential fashion, so we can getconversion in the end. What investors want out of companies in any industry?Not just healthcare is customer acquisition. Yeah, so saying I've got alog lot of targets sounds like it's attractive. You know. Look at all thetargets I could reach it. Isn't most investors Sayng go to an incrediblynarrow, targetin convinced be we hat hundred customers yeah all invest inyou, it's a night right right, yeah! Oh my goodness, I hade that conversationto because I work with folks that say: Oh the market potential is one billionand all we need is three percent and they, you know, like that's, going tobe the persuasive story, and it's like no that's where we're running Tso.Let's talk about what are some of what Ife some of the other strategies thatyou recommend for health, innovators thatare in the trenches right now that are building out those go to market andcommercialization plans. Okay, so later Wer on once you've actually got so andwhen people look at the the slam map they'll see those first three steps Imentioned. I met nee the team. That's going to solve the problem. I the valueproposition, are the three things that are in product market fit. You spendall your time on those the rest is...

...really understanding the market you'reentering. So what Customr discoveries doing for you in the derisking sense ismaking sure you've done. Several things an number one: you've got to size, yourmarket. How big is it really? You mentioned? You know, there's a billiondollar market out here. I really believe those kinds of numbers, because that might be what a totalmarket is an IT S, a total aggressible market, Le Yeah what'. Your reachablemarket is a very different number and that needs research, so people should be doing a lot ofsizing and carefully doing so go to markets is then, obviously veryimportant. I can't believe how many startups telling me that they're goingto big things up on facebook or use SEO to solve this in markets where peoplearen't even searching on Google or not even looking at facebook. There aremultiple marching channels. You've really go ar go and pickd a few thatcan reach your customer tribe, yeah and that takes work and research, of course,and then you're going to be diving into your custom, requisition cost in thosechannels, and then your long term value can create and making sure thosenumbers are available. Pricing is then, really important and that's not justsort of arbitrarily just slapping a price on your podetal service, it'sabout the value, you're, adding and then whatshare of that value. You'regoing to take in order to render the service. You are an es, a lot ofcareful work and then, finally, it's about for megetting into the ecosystem, understanding the market you'reentering and how are they going to react to your entry to it? So, in somecases, that' olviews competitors are going to be making. You know moves against whatyou're doing and you should know who they are and what they're going to do.Ot least predict try and project it, but ther are influences in the market.That's byers in the market, and there are, there are other sort of influencesthat are around, so you really want to map. All of that. I love to draw theECO system in a very detail fashion, so we could understand it and that'sparticularly important in healthcare, because it's typically so complicatedyeah yeah, and that makes so much sense toovercome the challenge that you mentioned earlier. In our conversationabout you know, I'm targeting one group andas I dig into it, I realize that those aren't going to be those decisionmakers and I could have had an entire rodbust plan or for the wrong market. It's likewrong, mackit on and you make a very good point or wrong decision maker inhealthcare. There's a couple of things that often calls miny pipots one iswwere, tarmenting, particular customer, and that customer isn't the buyerthey're an influenceer, but it's somebody else, who's the Barsor whoactually holds the money into go te fial decision or it might be a team byin health care. I find half the time it's a team by and you betterunderstand the how the team plays together because they recommend to eachother. So, if they're going to go and adopt a system and pay yous ask for youa thousand dollars UN for ten thousano dollars a month, you might have to getto five people. So it's really important to understandwho those five people are in a given industry, for example, yeah absolutelyand those five people might have different pot painpoints that theyreloking this all for right, different messaging, yes, well, and if notdifferent, painpoints different criteria by which they make a judgment,so a monor CFO as opposed to an exactive directoras opposed to achievemedical officer. I've got completely different criteria that I'm using tojudge when I get out of this. So then it's about the differentiators. It'sabout the value proposition of making sure it's pitched in such a way isthose different stakeholders in the decision thing. Ah, this is going togive me a real benefit here, so I'm prepared to go, and you know, write mysignature on the purchase order. Yep Yep absolutely so we talked earlierabout this explosion of innovation. That's happening in healthcare in what I find to be. One of thechallenges is rising above the noise right. You know, therethere'sinnovation taking place in a lot and other and all other verticals, but inhealthcare it seems to be so...

...concentrated right. So, instead of youknow knocking on someone's door, it being kind of the third innovationotesolution that they've seen this month hit could be the third pitch thatthey've had in the last hour so really being able to rise above thenoise is extremely critical. Do you have any guidance on how health innovators canrise above the noise? So for me, that's really simple, because I think the bestthing you can do is to get as much traction and bolosity as you can, andthat sounds difficult, but it's not as difficult as you think it's aboutgetting your beachhead customers on platform on your products in yourservice. Now that can be a Jerry mandard solution. It really doesn'tmatter as long as you've actually got reallarge people using the service, that's the best credentialar of all. So, as Isaid and ight, you know I actually work in the investment community, but theangel level and institutional level. I'd say as many as eight out of ten andpictures that that I see specially notys stage. benchers say: We've gotcustomers coming soon. I'd rather them tell me: they've gotten customers even only ten and here's what we've learned or I've got thirty, but there theyhappen to be all my friends right now, El. What have you learned from thosefriends? That's better rouutcome than I got a ton of money in the bank, butI've got no customers, so I think that's he biggest do risker Ahale yeahyeah, and I think you kind of allude to this idea of you know. Eventually we get to thewhole product configuration, but in the early stage you know going back to leanstart up this MVP right and it's interesting. I feel like this is a verylively topic in health care because and I an in a restage- you know at yourperspective is this, but you know when you talk about MVP and other industries,everyone's like yeah. That makes sense. Let's do it and then in healthcarethey're like Oh, what we're talking about patients live, so we can't dominimum viable product. We need to have the whole Inchilata and, and so justkind of talk a little bit about that. You know what is an MVP, and how can you do anMVP and health care and still not put people's lives at risk yeah. So the onething we've got to be careful about in healthcare is that you're right? Thisis a complete defense mechanism to go and say we deal with people's lives.Will Not efsent of health care doesn't deal with people's lives. It's a giantindustry who's been three and a half trilly, and at least ninety percent ofthat is spent on the systems that render ercare to patients at the end.Not Everything is a life threatening the event. So I think you need tounderstand what we're talking about, but even when it does, even whenthere's a patient o outcome, I don't think MVP means terrible quality and Walife, threatening exactly I', be looking for that very early. So ifwe're going to go and do something, MBP doesn't mean we're going to putsomething in a surgeon's hands and they're going to be killing severalpatients in order for us to get to way to be yeah oceptable. Clearly so Ithink in the world of Medical Devices onthink of the world, ther, biotech andfarmer, it's why we do so much research and testing tillin know that pery oftenstarts on animals and so on in ord to get to humans. That's just a given inthe healthcare industry, but I think it's a it's a it's a crutch elsewhere.I think ninety percent of the time health has no difference to any otherindustry. I think it's one where we can understand the risk, we're taking andstill get an Mvpato market, the time of quality to be acceptable. Yep.Absolutely I couldn't agree with you more and- and I do that, pushback of you know we're takining about withthe MVP is something that's safe. It just doesn't have every bell andwhistle every feature in functionality. That's going to make. You feel reallygood about what you're bringing Tho... and from like an ego standpoint,but it's going to be to your point enough to get some customers tovalidate the the the business model. Yes, absolutely and in big industries.Just give you another example and say the healthcare payer space innovation.There is largely around the payment model. It's got very little to do withanything other than thinking, man, insurance in different ways or thinkingabout how data is is presented or how population helth is uptose best oftestored in terms of yeahsoapologise Roky. So so I think we just have tounderstand which particular bit of healthcare we're talking about. It's agiant industry. I read a nice article recently saying it had a hundred andtwenty seven subbindustries and sixty of those are over a billion dollars. Sowe shouldn't really talk pajoratively bout healthcare as if it's O t, mygoodness, that is so true right, no different than the aging populationkind of being lumped together and kind of lumping healthcare together, yeahexact yeah. That segmentation is just so important, retty cool yeah. So let'stalk a little bit about pilots and health care. What does a health innovator need toknow to make sure that they are getting thegetting a pilot, getting the right pilot and making sure that they'regetting the results of that pilot relationship? That they're? Looking foryeah, it's a really good question, so pilots about an interesting history,and but we've got a little bit of tidness around pilots on both the startupside and on the the pilot. Take aside these days because there's so many youknow test the idea and it looks as if it's a safe way to go, but it can beproblematic. So, first of all make sure your Palos is with the tribe. You wantto test it with. You, don't want to say yes to everybody. If it doesn't fit,your persona doesn't fit the market. You really want to serve, don't do itwhen you do. I think you want to try and do it on a paig basis. If you can,you know if it's not fully paid, you want to try and make sure that it'spartly paid and your colstare covered it'll play better. If you look at theseacoutside investment free pilots, I think, are a problem. All the way down.The line will come back to haunt you pian and I'm a big fan in pilot. So ofactually writing a pilotic agreement that says here's what we're trying toachieve so we've got clear objectives of the pilot. We've got. What the the startup company will be doing interms of its corresponsibility is what you expect the Pirlot entity to bedoing, and then what are the matrits by which we're going to measure that andif we hit them, that we've even got a mechanism to saywe're going to convert it in away from pilitinto a full operational sale. Soyou can bak that in really the at the beginning, when you write a goodagreement, doesn't need to be a long agreement. I've seen very goodagreements on two pages objectives: Hes What we're going to do: Each ofthersresponsibilit on both sides of the fence, the matrics bly withfre in ameasure and the conversion mectors. If we hit these targets, will agree. Thispricing, for example, yeah yeah, absolutely so we're talking a lot about bestpractices when it comes to commercialize in an innovation who aresome companies out there or leaders that are doing it? Well, do you haveanyone that comes to mind that you're saying hey innovator, you're in thetrenches right now? This is somebody to you know you might not have the samebusiness model, but this might be something to somebody to at least lookat because they are either beating the odds or they're destined to beat theodds. Yeah there's actually almost too many to mention n. There are companiesthat are getting their customer right and are going in a very good direction. I meanit's not constrained to healthcare, of course, but you bonly got to go andlook at the high volosity companies they're, actually growing their revenueline, not their investment lines, and when I see headlines Theyre about Iraised twenty million or fifty million...

...or whatever the number I'm notimpressed because they raise money, I'm in Prentin, because their revenuenumbers look good. So if you think about the fast growth growth companieslets juse ask a health as a good example of that they found a need in the marketplaceand went after it and chase revenue very hard. You know in that Secto N. Idon't need Ta Single Amat, particularly, but I think you ow, if a good exampleof being very customer acquisition focused- and I think it's the companiesin healthcare that are doing that, there's a lot of them in the socialdeterminanse of health area in pomulation health in health. I ai thatI think I've got the same model: Thats Wellworth emulation when you're ayou know a tiny company trying to start up in the space again, I'm sorry keepsanchoring back to it. It's back to customer acquisition and the RevenueLine know than how much capital do. I need to go and survive for as long as Ineed to in this difficult industry. That's the wrong mentality for my money,mm yeah, so so John. I think we're getting to the end of our time heretoday and I want to just kind of throw out one last question for you: We'vegot so many of our listeners that are in the trenches right now. Is thereanything else that you would want to share with them? I'd like to go back to find that paidpoint. I think that comes down to being aware. So, if you're working inhealthcare- and you might be a nurse- you might be a Traini doctor, adoctoror someone else on the business side, it doesn't matter or maybe us have hadsome experience of the healthcare system. We don't work in it, but youhave one of your family members, for example, use it pay attention to thepainpoints that you've experienced make note to carry a book around withyou and try and think about those, because there are new and better waysof doing things and the careful identification of those big payinpoints that you see can be incredible opportunities to start a company pivot towards something or just get. You know from a to be veryquickly and O di find intis poutry with fantastic opportunities within it, butyou've got to pay attention so that that would be my one piece of advice:okay, excellent. So how can folks who want to maybe follow up with you afteror get a copy of your book? Where do they go sure, so the books on Amazon?It's on bands, AFD noble it elsewhere. You know all that stuff about good bookstores, it's available n, the kindle version, as well as physical, the there's a website dedicated to it.It's Pittswww Slam processcom my contact details Ar there I'm onlinked in I'm John, without an Hjo en but and elsewhere on social media. Sopeople should be able to find me I'm not hard to find online well. Thank you so much for sharingyour wisdom with our listeners today. I know that there are many golden nuggetsthat have been peppered in throughout our conversation that folks will beable to pick up on and implement into their own strategy. Well, thank youvery much trock to I've enjoyed it very much. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. I knowyou're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market, and Ivalue your time and your attention to save kind and get the latest episodeson your mobile device automatically subscribe to the show on your favoritepodcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and SFITCER. Thank you for listeningand I appreciate everyone. WHO's been sharing. The show with friends andcolleagues see you on the next episode of coiq.

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