Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 2 years ago

Think Twice Before Launching B2C: How Satish Movva’s B2B Strategy Skyrocketed His Award-Winning Wearable Tech

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

One of the biggest hurdles an innovator faces is the quest to prove you have a solid product-market fit. (Especially because many innovators fall prey to their own assumptions that their innovation will be loved by the masses, without pausing to get the masses’ thoughts first.)

This quest is closely tied to another huge hurdle: getting traction in the early stages. In the vast majority of cases, the early adopters, or first users of your innovation, will be quite different than your mainstream users down the road.

And it’s absolutely critical to address this as early as possible.


On today’s episode, CarePredict Founder and CEO Satish Movva tells us about his savvy early adoption strategy. It’s clear that this early strategy led to the success of his multi-award-winning wearable device, which he developed to help care for his elderly parents. Satish shares:

  • His early adoption strategy of testing his device in the smaller, more controllable environments of senior living centers vs. trying to scale too quickly with a commercial model
  • That a B2B early adoption strategy doesn’t mean you can’t go B2C later — but it will help give you invaluable insights to iterate your innovation before your mainstream launch
  • How the mindset of jumping straight to the B2C market is one of the biggest reasons that innovators never get off the ground
  • Some of the key game-changers and differentiators of his device, like being the first wearable on the market to be able to track arm gestures

 


Guest Bio

Satish Movva is the Founder and CEO of CarePredict, a wearable device that helps to predict serious health issues in seniors before they happen. CarePredict has earned several awards and accolades, including earning a spot in the Digital Health 150 and being named as an Honoree for Wearable Technology Developed Just for Seniors at the CES 2020 Innovation Awards.

Satish has spent nearly three decades working in healthcare tech, holding positions with companies ranging from large provider and physician corporations to household names like IBM.

To learn more, visit www.carepredict.com or connect with him on LinkedIn.

Welcome to Coiq, where you learn how health innovators maximize their success. I'm your host, Dr Roxy, founder of Legacy DNA and international bestselling author of how health innovators maximize market success. Through candid conversations with health innovators, earlier, doctors and influencers, you'll learn how to bring your innovation from idea to start ups to market domination. And now let's jump into the latest episode of Coiq. Welcome back coiq listeners. On today's episode, I am really excited we have setiche Movo with us. He is the CEO and founder of care predict. Couple of things I want to share with you that makes this episode really exciting is that they were recently noted or slated on the digital health one hundred and fifty list as one of the most promising digital health startups. And then also recently, let me do me make sure I got this right, you guys were just awarded the Cees Two thousand and Twenty Innovation Award Honore for wearable technology development just for seniors. Congratulations. Thank you very much, Dr Moody, and welcome to the show. Thank so, I think I'd like to just start off with you telling us a little bit about your background and what you do you for the our listeners who don't know you yet. Yeah, so I've been in technology now for about thirty plus years and twenty six of those have been in healthcare technology. So I mean very large provider corporations, physician corporations, all the way to working with folks like I be am throughout my long career and healthcare technology. Okay, Nice. And so a little bit about care predict and what you're doing there. Yeah, so care predict. I really started here predict primarily to take care of my own parents. My Dad's ninety four this year and my mom's eighty four. They live about ten minutes away from me and I speak to them every day, but when I show up on a Saturday along with my kids into I almost always find things that were completely new that I had no idea about, and more often than not that led me to take them to the yard that day or pretty much mess up my following weeks. Book scheduled specialist appointments and I looking to see if I could get some idea about what was going in their life, because unpredictable being their health is causing havoc in mine and that's how I came about to create care predict to essentially give me that heads up about what's going on. So I think that's fascinating and I think I told you on our precall I want to buy one of these. I need a couple of them. So describe what it's like she to be a healthcare entrepreneur today and a pioneer in this in this space. Yeah, I think there are a...

...lot of really smart people looking at this issue. You know, worldwide the number of seniors are growing at a tremendous rate. The number of caregivers who can care for them and the number of payers who can pay for the care has been decreasing quite a bit because real a lot longer than we expected. So a whole bunch of very smart healthcare entrepreneurs are looking at this. I think they're coming at it from multiple different ways. Somebody like me, coming from within the industry, are trying to fashion a solution that fits into the current work flows of the physicians and the current healthcare system and can fit into that reimbursement model, and some of the other entrepreneurs coming from the technology side or of the valley are coming at it from this. Is this really nice technology? Is that an application in senior care? So both of those are coming together and doubtailing together to really create the best in breed solutions out there for technology for aging seniors. HMM. Yeah, and I think that it's great because at that's I think what's going to help transform the industry is the convergence of those two mindsets. So do you have experience in other verticals and your past career? I have. Actually I started how to act as a very neat technologist. I was working and operating systems and networking cardinal stacks and things like that for IBM and then I went down to work with IBM in in different verticals and insurance verticals as well as law enforcement verticals in Scotland and New Zealand before I came back into the healthcare system here in the US. So how would you you know what would be some of the differences, or how would you describe what it's like to develop and innovate technology and other verticals compared to healthcare today? I think I would say that healthcare has always lagged other verticals in adopting new technology, mainly because it's the kind of problem we are dealing with real lives, real people, and people are always going to be a little bit more conservative and how they adopt you technology. But as in some of the other verticals like law enforcement or insurance, it's very much a dollar sen sense equation. Yeah, and on investment, and they can deployed very, very quickly. There is there aren't any bad consequences there, whereas in healthcare there could be bad consequences if you get something wrong. Yeah, Yep, absolutely. You know, it's interesting. There's a lot of lip service going on about healthcare innovation and you know, everybody's talking about it. So it seems like for the the level of talk that's happening, it seems like there's a lot of adoption, which your perspective on the difference between talk and adoption, I think it was. That's very perceptive. If you by the way, there is a lot of hype around digital help and a...

...lot of innovation going on. I think the way to look at it is, you know, how many of those really get out of the pilot stage where they're proving, yeah, true return on investment and have the efficacy that people are looking for, versus, you know, how many actually get into commercial and come all the way through. That is a large dropoff right from pilot to actual commercial in the digital health space. So a lot of the new innovators that are coming in are coming in not necessarily with the domain expertise of health but the domain expertise of technology. Yeah, sometimes what they think will work in the space dust. You cannot make, you know, around pipe fit in a square hole. Yeah, absolutely, and I would just add to that. So you were talking about those two segments that are kind of coming together. So you've got those technologists that may not be familiar with the domain of healthcare and then you've got those folks and health care who have lots of expertise right there. A lot of times they're living with the problem that they're trying to solve, but often they get so in love with their solution they think everybody's going to love it just as much as they do. Right, that's that's every founder you ever speak to will believe their solution is the panacea. It's widespread, but you really have to let the market decide that, sure, and that's the market is the ultimate you know, judge in our bitter of this. Yeah, until how many of these digital health platforms have been adopted and have gotten too commercial success versus those that haven't, and it's a very clear indicator to you. You know what is working what is not work. Yeah. So, so help us understand what has been your process for developing your early adoption strategy? Yeah, so, when we started this I was trying to really build a solution for people like me, adult child of the senior, really struggling with their parental care. So it was more targeted to its consumers. But along the way, in two thousand and fifteen, we realize that trying to put this technology in hundreds of homes is something that at our stage was not scalable as a startup. We cannot go to a hundred different homes and support a hundred different seniors and have eyes on a hundred different seniors to understand how the device is performing versus their own, you know, activities and behaviors. So we somewhat pivoted the company to say we're going to go after senior group of living, dependent living, assisted living alls, I'm a dementia care centers, where they're, you know, a hundred or more residents in a facility all together and you have thirty two, forty staff that are there to take care of them, and what that gave is really was a very controlled environment where we could deploy our product and actually measure how well it's working, because we have the staff there who had eyes on the residents and we can compare what they are saying versus what our device is saying. And it also allowed us to send our nurses into the...

...facility to collect data, to label our data. We use AI extensively in our platform, but for you to do ai correctly, you need what it's called labeled data. Yeah, know when somebody felt. You need to know when somebody had your nar attract infection, you need to know when somebody was depressed, so you could train your Ai Training de blending training models to know well these with the initial conditions that led to this consequence, that labeling of the data that fall being in that senior group living facility really allowed us to do that extremely well. And I look at my peers out in the industry that kind of went out after the consumer model first, they were all struggling and they are still all struggling because it's not scalable to deploy it in mass quantity and see how well it works, whereas in a control environment you have really good and, most importantly, have the same group of people going through the facility and you have this long term ability to look and see how your product is changing them, changing their activity behaviors and it is really truly making a difference or not. So I want to pause here and really dig deeper into this because I think that this is a topic that is so important. Parton to innovators, to our listeners that very often there's this decision between be tob or BTC, and a lot of folks that I talked to they want to circumvent the bureaucracy and the red tape right of reimbursement rates and go straight to B Toc and and feel like, you know, hey, I'm just going to do some facebook ads, I you know, and and I'm going to expand and get this market at get this adoption in the market. And so help me understand what you're saying on what you decided and why you decided it early on, and then what was the thing that made you pivot and change? Yeah, I would say that you're absolutely right and there's a whole lot of people going out to be to see just trying to get engagement through facebook ads and so on. But I think I would differentiate that by saying there are certain piece of technology that are maybe only software mobile APSE that may benefit from that drop. But if you have any kind of a wearable device or any kind of a hardware component or something that's a little bit more sophisticated, that requires essentially a curated introduction off that product be to s is not going to scale for you. Hmmm. And you can spend a lot of money, you know, getting a lot to aqua consumers, whether facebook ads or whatever. Those things had a pretty quickly upcur sure, yeah, and actually it's not cheap and and and kind of roll that out all over the country or in geographical reason or whatever. But you're going to be like a pinball going to all these places trying to get figured out what's going on. So do you think that that's because it's the early stage of the product development...

...and you're still trying to prove the safety and efficacy of the solution even even prior to that? It's the product market fit. Yes, product really addressed the question or not, and you will not know. You in your mind it may absolutely address it to the end of degree, but until it's in the wild on somebody's wrist or on somebody's mobile phone and they tell you that on a scandid feedback, it's only in your head. Yeah, that's very early segment. That very early adopts. The forty, fifty, eighty people are going to shape your product for eternity, not necessarily for eternity, but at least for the next very right right, because they are going to tell you what works what doesn't work. You know, you may go in with the assumption, yeah, every go, everyone's going to wear my device. Well, then you're going to find out, oh, it's too big or it's wrong color or whatever it may be, like we did originally with our very, very first versions, and that allowed us to refine the product market fit and the earlier doctors are the ones that are going to shape and you want that to be a very diverse group. But you also want that to be a control environment so you can repeatedly ter rate on the product, take it back to them and say, now, does this fit your conception of what this thing is supposed to be? Yeah, measuring the functional aspects of the device or the software as well to see is it really changing or making the changes in their health that you thought it for it. So I think that I almost want you to repeat everything you said, but I won't have you do that because it's I just want to reinforce it for our listeners, you know. So it sounds like what I hear you're saying is you're not saying that you know you or the company won't ever go to B Toc Right. You're just saying that that is not your initial path, that for the reasons that you just described. So it's maybe still part of your phase two or longer term adoption strategy, but doing be to be right now, because you have a device with an APP and you need to prove safety and efficacy and you need to prove product market fit first with the BEDB. Yeah, so we launched the pilots in two thousand and fifteen, we ended the pilots in two thousand and seventeen. We have two years of solid data and then we started commercially offering the product and see your group living both here in the US and in Japan, and it's been very, very successful. So we're all over the US now and in fourth quarter of two thousand and nineteen. We actually launch the product through home care channels into the person's homes. So that's ore be to be to see again, you're taking that distribution channel, you're taking that person who has hands and eyes on that individual three or four times a week deploying it through that channel. So you're giving yourself the scalability of the channel. That's super important. You know, you need to be able to use an intermediary to get to a couple of hundred consumers, not...

...directly self to the consumer because it's much more expensive. That said, because of the award at CS that we received in January for the innovation in wearable technology, we actually also deployed our product to direct to consumers as well. So we have a beautiful retail kid that's designed for a senior living at home and you can purchase it right on our website and very soon Amazon as well, and they ented really there was and we are not yet doing any kind of massive advertising or anything about that product because we want the home care channel to prove up that it works really well in consumer and then those early adopters in the director consumers who have a such a pressing need that they're scouting the web looking for technology like ours. When they come to us, they're going to see it. These are the early adoptors you want, because they're motivated, they want to try it, they're also forgiving if there are any flaws and it, because they're going to help us change it. It refrectly makes it, and so it's a very soft launch, and you always should do. Consumer thing is a soft launch because there are going to be questions that you have to answer and there are going to be problems that you did not anticipate that a consumer will find so much radiation out there. In that in the world of consumers, you're going to have unexpected things brought to your attention and you will have the room to make those changes, to find it and then do the big launch in our on a mother's Day or some other bige. Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Do you want your innovation to succeed, to change lives, to shape the future of healthcare? I want that for every health innovator, which is why I invented Coyq and evidence based framework to take your innovation from an idea to start up to full market adoption. If you're not sure where you are in the commercialization process, take the free assessment now at Dr Roxycom. backslash score. Don't miss out on impacting more lives just because you have a low coiq score. The free assessment is at Dr Roxycom. backslash score. That's Dr Roxiecom backslash score. And now let's jump back into the conversation. And I think that it's even more important with a complex buying process like healthcare. Are where you've got, you know, a buyer and then you've got maybe a sponsor and then you've got the user. I was talking to someone the other day that, you know, is doing something in the home. It's not like care predict at all, but something to where they've got folks like you and I that are the actual buyer, but then they've got a senior person...

...that's the user and the like you and I, they were all over it, they were buying it, but when it came to the person using it, they didn't like it. And so, you know, being able to identify product market fit which each person that plays a role in that buying cycle is so critical, and it sounds like that's what you're talking about. Absolutely that's exactly what I'm talking because it's the user is different. So in senior group living, you know, you have a hundred people wearing our device. You have the forty staff wearing adwise it's pretty much a condition of residency and is not out of the ordinary. People are expected to wear it because it's also the door key in the ELICRONIC doors. That's how you get back into your apartment or Condo. There it makes absolute sense. But he now you suddenly go to a single senior living at home that aren't other ice and years out there their families and coming in all the time looking at them, and no family wants to give this. You know, you and I want to give this to our parents for our peace of mind, but you have to look at it from their perspective. They have when those elderly folks can be really stubborn, absolutely by all being denial that they need anything. Like I can write even though you and I know, vetter, because we know truly what's going on. Yeah, exactly. I just feel it's about and to where I don't want to wear it, you know. So you have to be really tactful how you go about social engineering them into arry and the secret weapon I can share with all of your listeners is coop the grandkids. I think grandma GRANDPA will not do for grand grandkids. Oh my God, daughter called, call and you got to wear this for me, and she will wear it, I guarantee you. I can just see your ad camping in the future. Right. The great kids are on camera and they're saying, come on, grandma, put this on for me. You know, it's all to keep them safe and all to keep them living long enough to see all the goals at the grandchildreren are going to meet. Yeah, yeah, ultimately that's what it's all about. Sure. The other one that I think of is just the physician. You know, I you know, when we were talking before, I told you that my ninety one, ninety one year old grandmother lives with us, and I'm telling you it doesn't matter what I say, but whatever that doctor says, I mean you write it, you take it to the check and cash it at the bank. I mean the doctor has so much influence. Whatever that doctor tells her, she's going to do, which also would be another factor at play with that. Be To be versus, a be to be strategy. Right exactly. You need a person of the in authority to yeah, also part of it is also, you know, as we all get older, we live as rationally. You know, we say, you know, we might want to do two miles of walking a day and stuff like that, and sometimes we communicate that way as well. And so we find a lot of seniors, when they're speaking to the physicians, are not necessarily upfront about how active they are or how...

...active they are not, and so sometimes the physician is kind of operating under misconception the person is a lot more active than the truly are. The physicians need objective data as well to take care of sure, in the physician telling grandma, you got to wear this because then I'll know a lot more about you. If you're skipping nails, if you're eating less, and I can help you, you know, live longer and make sure you can see all of your grandkids go. That's powerful. But the doctor needs the information and that's one of the messages we are communicating the BTB. Well, sure you know, it's not only from the care side but also from the payer side to medicate advantage plans of the well, you know, they are working in a capitated model where they only make money if they keep you healthy. The minute you will go to the yard, they lose and and they've lost all that year's money on yea. So they are very, very interested in learning more about what's going on in that individual's life and how can they help at the earliest signs of, you know, fatigue or malnutrition or risk of a fall, risk of Autie. Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. So, Tish, I want to ask you, you know, as you kind of think about the last few years of your journey, what do you think some of these decisions or strategies that you've deployed that have been just game changers for you? I would say that the very first instance of this product where we put on the dominant arm and started tracking gestures of the arm, that is something that's very novel. There's still nobody doing that. So you're getting that actual fork lift to the mouth or drinks it to the mouth. That is truly a differentiated that still nobody is really caught up to and we think that's a game changer because that's directly measuring a particular activity or behavior rather than using a proxy of sure use you open the refrigerator door, so I can assume you ate. That's the old world and this you're right, they eat or not. That's been a game changer. The other thing that really came to us, and this goes back to that's whole product market fit. Our original, first version had an enclosed batter and they would last anywhere from five to seven days, but they needed to be taken off and put on a wireless charger to be charged. Yep, what we found very quickly was when it's taken off, it's very hard to get them to put it back on because they're forgotten about it and they moved on. Sure. Next iteration was a game changer where we made it a replaceable, swappable battery without having to take it off the rest, and that completely changed the adoption rate because now there's no reason for you to take it off. MMM, and you know you look huge. Yeah, you look at something like an apple launch which you have to take off every night to charge. Now that will never work for a senior because what are they going to do? They're going to put on the bedside so when they go to the bathroom at night they fall, they have no way of calling anybody for help. I forgot to put it back on. Because it's on my charger my night stay and exactly. Yeah,...

...wow, so would have been some of the lows and your experience? You know, I know a lot of people don't want to talk about it, but we all know that entrepreneurship is not all rainbows and butterflies. It is a tough, tough gig out there. So would have been some its share, you know, just candidly, some of those moments where maybe you thought this is not going to work or you know, whatever, it would be. What were some of those examples? Yeah, I think the toughest the earliest. I mean there are always highs and lows throughout the journey and may being added for five plus years. The earliest lows were really around the gesture recognition. Can we ever get to a stage where we would have a high accuracy? And the earliest stages it was disheartening because we spend about a year and a half working on that. There's a lot of variation in how people eat. So at the end we had to come up with brand new algorithms. That had never been done before. Any machine learning model on or wearable that can actually track that that. You know, that could have killed the company if we went able to do that at all these sudden bright PhDs and they figured it out and so we were able to get, subsequent to that, you know, the part market fit. All of those have been very good. Customer adoption has been very good. Pilot results have been good. I would, however, say the one area that is still somewhat of the struggle is getting the venture funding for technologies that are addressing senior care needs. You know, if you are creating I don't know a number for cats, people are going to put hundreds of millions of dollars, but if you're doing anything meaningful in the digital help around to take care of aging seniors, they're aren't a whole lot of venture capitalists who are specialized in that. So they're not a whole lot of people you can go to. especially if you got a hardware as part of your solution, it's nearly impossible to get funding in Silicon Valley. They really should rename it to software value. Now, because it's an APP, they'll fund you, but if it's anything to do with real, tangible stuff, it's very difficult to get that and that's been a struggle. But now we are seeing more and more a lot of the we see themselves are aging and now they're thinking about how do I take care of my dad and mom, and so that light belt has gone off and so, especially since about last quarter, twenty nineteen through now, we are seeing big shifts in how people are looking at aging demographics throughout the world. We have people from all over the world now investing in senior care technologies and they don't have to be an APP because they all realize, you know, seniors don't use APPS. Maybe the new cord of seniors coming through will use APPS, but in general, you know, it's difficult for them to use an applied watch or apple smartphone type dewise or smartphone tap right now. So we are seeing a lot more influx of interest. Now. What do you think...

...is triggering that? You know, if it's just happening last quarter, you know, is there an influx of vcs that have just hit that point where they're taking care of their parents? I mean, maybe we don't know what the correlation is, but what do you think? That's certainly a one reason. They themselves are looking for their personal side of things. Yeah, the other aspect of it also has been this real big increase in medicate advantage plans and the seniors in those populations and how it's based on keeping them out of the hospital. There's been a lot of high profile IPOs in that space. I mean you look at look great folks, Likely Longo and other big name companies like Oscar, clover one medical. These are all the companies that are coming into the space that are saying there is, you know, there is a really good, big market in senior camp. Prior to that people kept thinking about well, it's healthcare and healthcareimbursement. That's a ball of hair they did not want to touch because it's not a very clean reimbursement process. But now they're understanding there are different modalities. And then see M as senter for medicate services also been very, very forward thinking about this stuff. You know, they released new building codes for immort patient monitoring that are no longer connected to chronic care management. So you have a whole slew of remote patient monitoring companies coming up which traditionally monitored individual their heart rate, their weight and pulse hawks but now they're looking and saying, wait a second, activity and behavior is the new vital sign. That's something we want to monitor. Well, who does that? The only ones who are doing that right now today is us, and know that's our tag line. Activities and behaviors precede health declines. We can catch that. And so there's been a lot of thinking about you really have to think about the senior holistically, not just their vitals. You got to think about all aspects of their life, their social determinants of help. Yes, important, and all that has been codified Aga under the men care system, under Medicare advantage. So people are saying, okay, now there's financial support for innovation in this space, we should start looking and seeing who's operating in the space and who are the ones we should find. Yeah, yeah, I think there was also, you know, a lot of VC's that thought that, you know, because of the explosion of innovation and healthcare, that it was just going to be a guarantee, kind of a quick win because there was good technology out there. And I think that there's been, from what I've heard at different conferences, this kind of PTSD around. Man, I invested in all these solutions and it just didn't turn out right. The long sale cycles, the reimbursement challenges and so it sounds, you know, the companies that you just listed, I think, or phenomenal examples to demonstrate that it can be done. Yeah, and it is...

...being done and there's a lot of financial return on making these investments. Absolutely, I think. To your point, when that whole boom occurred in do so, how a couple of years ago, it was all APP based. Yeah, you know, there was an app for everything, and what people didn't realize is APP is only one part of the equation. Yep, behind you, you look at Lu Wang or any one of those guys, it's not just a diabetes APP. It has care coaches behind a real humans that are giving way concentrated, one on one attention to that individual with that condition to help them change. You know that that takes a lot of money to do that. It's not just an APP that does it, and so I think they kind of had a little bit of a reckoning where they you know, doctors are going to prescribe five hundred APPs. You write a lot of these APPs that are just languishing in the APP stores with nobody using them. But those apps that have put themselves into the workflow of the traditional clinical model put human resources behind it for the care coaching and close the loop between the symptom treatment and actually measured everything and doing well and they just green going forward. Sure, that makes sense. So let's talk about some other strategies that you think has been influential and your success and where you are today. I see that you're getting a lot of media attention and you're winning all these great awards. How do you think that this is affecting your commercialization process or is it yeah, you know, I words are wonderful, we love them. You know, see the insides. Just the one hundred and fifty top twenty five companies in the world for AI and yeah, they're all wonderful and raising the profile of the company, but to be honest, I don't know necessarily that the influence our and user customers. These are folks in the healthcare world who are looking strictly at outcomes. So another thing that we are very proud of is a twenty four month outcome study that was performed by one of our customers where they deployed our product in three facilities they had and and measured it against three facilities that did not have our product over a twenty four month period and with our product they found a thirty seven percent reduction in falls, twenty one person reduction in hospitalizations, eighty five day increase in average lent, the stay in these private pay facilities where length of state needs to be increased. That's where you want to be. You don't want to change care setting to a q cat hospital or the skillnursing facility. That is really what is changing things for us. So we just started publicizing those results and it's causing really big companies, even in the VTB space, to suddenly stop and say, wait a second, this is important, we need to look at it. We're talking with mentt advantage plans, were talking with senior group living, but also talking with very large health systems as well as healthcare companies out of the...

...valley, very very big companies that are suddenly saying this is important. You actually have demonstrated results over twenty four month period. That is an old standard in healthcare. Yeah, yeah, I, words are wonderful, I love them, but comes every day of the week. So I think that that is really important story as well, because you know as an entrepreneur, and you know this, you've wear many hats and a lot of times your bootstrapped self funded in the early stages. You can only do so many things and you can get pulled into pitches and, you know, Media Opportunity's and, you know, just trying to determine how much time do you spend on that to elevate the presence of the company in the market place, versus putting some money, time and attention behind something that's really tangible, like an outcome study? Yeah, I mean all all attention is good and be you still love all that. Right, of course, the study is an objective way of looking at it. I mean, if you look at some of those companies I mentioned, that onlyest outcome studies for thirty, forty people using their product over over a sixmonth pred and then demonstrating that effict. Is that, more than anything, is what leads to an option in Texas, because health get us, as we mentioned, is a highly discovers industry for good reasons. Yeah, to see that this works and you're not just using their patients as guinea pigs. Yep. Well, you know, I think across the across the world, in any vertical you know, just as consumers, we don't believe what brands say. We only believe what other people say about those brands. Right, Google reviews, facebook reviews, etc. And they think in in in healthcare, that it's really the data. So one of the things that I think is really important to stress here is this twenty four months study. So not only our entrepreneurs facing long sales cycle roles, but if the key to successful commercialization is the outcomes data and it took twenty four months to get the study and place, then you have a pretty long run rate. Absolutely, and plan for that. Yeah, absolutely. If you're doing anything healthcare, plan for twice. It took cost twice as much and three times as long sales or whether it's development or what happened, especially if we got hardware, another x, multiply to it. Definitely. So I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation today. I really appreciate all the insights that you have. I just have one last question for you. There are many health innovators that are in our audience listening today. Is there any advice that you would want...

...to share with them before we wrap up? Yeah, I think one bit of advice, and this was regarding our fundraising journey, is in healthcare you want to raise as much as you can. We did it somewhat differently. We only raise enough to get us to the second next milestone and then we raised again and then we raised again. As an entrepreneur, that's tying you up a log into the fundraising cycle, so you are not out there leading the company, you know, really pushing the innovation and making this hell or selling or yes, and that really takes you alway. If it all possible, and get outside my kney early. Okay, it's better to grow the pie than worry about the size slice size. Hmmm. I meet a lot of entrepreneurs who say, well, I don't want outside investors because I don't want to give up, you know, equity in my company. So on way to think about it. Think about the equity is coming with expertise. It's not just money. They're bringing connections and the whole life is getting bigger and having that war chest in your bank is going to really serve you well in the healthcare space because it is a long sales cycle, it is a long outcome study, Sales Sye. So you really need to bank on that. You need care for it. Awesome. That is just brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with our listeners today. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. I can thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and your attention. To save time and get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who's been sharing the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Coiq.

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