Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 3 years ago

The Beauty of Rapid Cycle Innovation w/Jeff Gasser

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Running a business can feel a lot like raising a child: anything can happen. What are some of the key decisions we can make in order to be more adaptable to shifts and changes? Why is saving money in the early stage of a company so important? How can rapid cycle innovation influence our success?

On this episode, Deerwalk CEO Jeff Gasser shares how he turned his health innovation into what Amazon health considers one of the best life science companies in the country.

He’ll walk us through his key entrepreneurial do’s and don’ts, the need for a minimum viable product, and capital-raising myths. He also shares on building lifelong business and customer relationships and how each innovation you commercialize is building the legacy for your next one.

 

3 Things You'll Learn

  • How to be efficient with product strategies
  • Why critical customers are actually a good thing
  • The importance of finding early adopters

 

Running a business comes with many phases and challenges, and you need to be ready to pivot and shift accordingly. Having an ego and being too focused on your specific plan gets in the way of your success. The important thing is creating what people actually want and care about, and understanding how you’re going to distribute the product.

Instead of over-developing a product, focus on very small, incremental and agile product roll-outs. That way, your company moves fast and can react to market forces more readily.

Welcome to Coiq and first of its kind video program about health innovators, earlier doctors and influencers and their stories about writing the roller coaster of healthcare innovation. I'm your host, Dr Roxy, founder of Legacy DNA marketing group, and it's time to raise our COIQ on today's show. How Jeff Gosser turned his healthcare innovation into what Amazon health considers one of the top sixty life science and healthcare mid market companies in the country. Jeff, the innovator behind deer walk, is going to turn everything upside down that we think we know about the healthcare commercialization process. Welcome to the show, Jeff. Thanks for having me. Roxy. Thank you. So let's start off the conversation today by telling us, our audience a little bit about your background and what you do. So I've I've been in healthcare for forty years. I'm a CPA by training. I got my first job as an auditor or CPA and audited the USF medical schools and actually got involved that our firm had as the client. Our clients was the guys that invenegator rate. So the doctor that in gator rate actually was text return and I became the the auditor of all these dialysis clinics and I kind of got the entrepreneurial bug from doing his tax returns and seeing how much money he got from the UA gate or a trust every year, and that's what it was called. I could still see it and and really, you know, got involved is a as a cfo of dialysis clins had a big job opportunity when I was twenty three. I thought that, you know, was going to be, you know, sort of a path I would take. And then my chance to start my first company came up when I was twenty five, but doing a math right and I quit bad job, which is pay me pretty well to CEFO with thirty million dollar company and to make zero and start the first company that I got involved with twenty four or twenty five, right in there. Yeah, yeah, some, and it's sort of been one after the other. I've done five of them. So first one was in real estate. It was a relocation company, and but the last fourmament in healthcare. Stort of Pediatric Home Care Business, got and started a doctor group that ended up getting acquired by a publicly traded sub acute company. Got It started another analyst company, called D to Hawkeye up twenty years ago and then dear walk today with one of my old part or founders of d to Ord to hawk. I called me up to start this come any rude or panty chairman of our company, and the two of US started this in two thousand and ten. So you just live in the glamorous life of entrepreneurship since you were twenty five years old. Yeah, I wouldn't quite called glamorous. How would you? It's a limiting you know. I it's it's one of those things that you either have it or you don't. You know, for me, I guess as I would come across risks in my life, I always decided to take the risk and never shied away from it. And I guess because I always figured when I got to be older and was looking back on my life, I probably wasn't going to say I wish I didn't take that risk. I'd probably say I wish I did take that risk. And in fact I remember when I was the CFO of that dialysis company, I had the chance to get involved the start up. You know, being an accountant, I did a tea account for those that don't...

...know what that is. You basically make a tea and you put the assets or the pros on one side to put the liabilities or cons on the other. And so I thought, well, if I quit my job to make zero, what could happen? And the best thing that could happen is this thing would be wildly successful and I be really rich, and could I live with that? And I thought well, God, yeah, I can live with that, and then I will. Would be the worst thing that could happen? I thought, well, it go bankrupt. It couldn't be worth all bankrupt. Right. So what would happen if it went bankrupt? And I thought well, I'd probably have to go on good a job and I thought, well, what would that job look like? And I thought, well, it looks something like the job I have right now. Then, once I realized that I was living the worst case scenario, to take the risk. Wow, that's huge. Yeah, that's why I ended up. Every time I look at it, I realized if I don't take the risk, I'm living the worst case scenario. Right, right, wow. So, so you've launched and, I think, sold five different companies and well, I've been cofounder of full five for this is okay. Yeah, this is okay. So you're running the fifth one right now? Yeah, yeah, it's eight years into it. Really have it and actually I would tell you I'm having more fun than I've ever had. I never imagined that. I mean I really thought I'd be kicking back at this point in my life, not flying three hundrezero miles a year. I'm having the time of my life. So right, you know, I view this is retirement, because this is what I would do if I had anything to choice of doing anything. Yeah, so, chef, I asked you to come on the show and tell your story because, you know, commercialize and innovation in healthcare is really hard. It's really complex and I think entrepreneurs and health innovators need to hear more success stories. And you know, like we talked about before, you know it's not the glamorous life always, maybe, sometimes, not ever, but you know there's always going to be bumps along the road. So tell us a little bit about that. And you know, what were some of the obstacles that you've had to overcome, you know, thinking about deer walk in the last ten years. Well, for starters, in the beginning part the company Ruder Handy, our chairman and I both, you know, were at the prior company. I left, I think maybe two years before he did. Compete was up. So when we started this company we had, you know, we had to live with his noncompete. Right. We really just decided to do custom program well, I let me say this. We started by talking for an entire weekend for the most part, and trying to figure out what it was. We knew how to do. It took an entire weekend to try to figure out what it was. We knew how to do. But we kind of came down to sort of two things. He we sort of knew how to transform healthcare data. We were pretty good at that. We had done it a lot, you know, more than most people. And we knew how to run an international operation because our prior company, thanks to Rubra I, had a big operation capt man and the Paul. He's a these ordinative, and really we do how to run that. And so everything we've done in this company has sort of been anchored on those two knowledge bases. But we couldn't build anything without risking being sued. So, you know, we started just doing custom programming for a year and then then we decided that instead of building the product suite based on database architecture, which is what pretty much everybody in healthcare uses. We decided that we were going to try to apply no sequel technologies or what's true big data technologies.

A big data and database aren't really in the same sentence, although people tend to put them in the same sentence. Think of his search engine technology, and we're going to try to apply that to the healthcare data problem. And to do that we had to bring in technology. Our CTEO comes from outside healthcare. It was friend of Rugra's, a brilliant young guy, that that helped us do that. That's of twenty seven months, because it wasn't like we just went out and bought a sequel license or an Oracle license and built something. We had to sort of build this entire back end first and then we got trying to remember exact dates of this, but we got a into it, you know, we got some Beta customers going and we were we were kind of moving along and you might remember the Catman do earthquake, uh Huh. So I woke up one morning. It was I think it was April twenty four. I think it was two thousand and fifteen. I might have been sixteen, but I remember waking up that morning thinking this company might be over. I mean I mean we had our entire operation was over there and it we couldn't find people and I I didn't know how we dig out of out of that. And so it took us six days to find everybody cloud our our you know, we did all the all the kind of engineering and data processing. Everything stays in the US, but people actually running jobs and so forth are in the pall and they were gone and our infrastructure was shot and within well, what we did was we started working like, you know, dogs in the US to keep up the processing for our customers. Thank God I was in big at that time and we we had a big basketball court and outdoor basketball court in our campus in the Paul and we we built a roof across it and strong wires and people all of the we set up workstations in the basketball court, covered by a roof and outdoor basketball with wires strong to it, and that's where our employees worked until we could rebuild the infrastructure in such a way that we could move back into it. So it was a really, really crazy time and having a three of these companies have had moments like that. It's just that you were on the brink of, you know, losing the business or going bankrupt. You know, we really that rattled. Yeah, yeah, I mean the D to Hawkeyet, a prior company. Just to give another example, we started that company in August the two thousand and one. We're just getting off the ground and I was in a plane heading west, on the same kind of planes that went into the Tower on eleven. I thought eleven was going to kill that company. Well, yeah, there's now things have I think almost every coming people I talk to them all had these experiences that you're going to get a test, m getting multiple tests and you just have to find a way, somehow, some way, to get through all. So so how did how did you over come that particular experience or even just you know, as you look back on your entrepreneurship journey over the last, you know, thirty, forty years, you know, what what do you do to stay positive, to stay motivated and encouraged and, you know, to have the belief in the faith that you're going to be able to overcome some of these things that...

...are, you know, unpredictable. That's not something that you're going to be able to, you know, identify in a business plan of how you're going to overcome those things. You just have to be positive, you have to have faith, you have to have you know, you. So the thing about these things are is you will. You see all sorts of people in life have all overcome so many things and then you look, you look at them and you say, wow, what a what an amazing person that you know that they were able to overcome this or that. And frankly, those folks are. But what I would tell you is that anybody else would be like that too, if they're putting that maybe not everybody, but if you're putting that situation, something really bad, you have no idea what you're capable of, Yep into you're in that situation and and then another gear kicks in. Maybe it's adrenaline. Well, idea, but your mind just starts working and thinking through. Okay, where is the daylight? where? You know I'm in this darkness. I got to find this little bit of daylight. I've got to focus on the daylight and figure out to get there. And every you know, I've been through it now so many times. Yeah, we get there, but every I tell you, your first reaction is this could sink us. HMM, thank us. And it's it's it's kind of like, you know, you're in a sporting event and you're feeling really positive and you know, like a football team and we go out, maybe you're a quarterback and the first play you throw an interception for a touchdown for the other team. Let's not talk about the saints in the playoffs. Okay, so let's kind of flip the coin a little bit. You know, as you you know, as you think about this, what are some of those things that you think we're just game changers for you? As you think about the the you know our listeners who are fellow entrepreneurs that are very likely in the trenches right now. You know, what are some of the things that maybe you came across in your journey to be watchful for? Maybe it was a key customer, a key relationship, something to do with your strategy. You know, what are some of the things that you think we're, decisions that you made that really impacted your success and ways that maybe you wouldn't have been able to predict? Well, I always look when I try to figure out who's going to be the customer. I think about aggregators. I try to figure out ways I can sell the product to people who already have multiple customers and somehow sell it through them. They've already got relationships. Because, you know, I had got a hire twenty five salespeople to cover the country or higher one or two people to find people who already have all those customers. Right. So in our space today we have competitors that so most most employers over two hundred and fifty lives or self insured. One of our markets is selling in self insured employers and help analytics, help the analyze is going on with their employee benefit plants. We have competitors that will knock on the doors of five hundred life companies. We don't find modes of people who have like third party administrators, benefit consultants, people like that who have relationships with them, because that's I just can't figure out how to math works front. Yeah, one of those sours. As result, we have a little under a hundred customers today, but we have there's I think we added it up. There's just under fourteenzero employers in the United States who's health is on their...

...datas on our application through one of our relationships now direct relationships of employers that are mean ones of fortune, fifty company. If I said their name, everybody will know it instantly, but most of them come through one of these other relationships. Understanding how you're going to distribute the product is yeah, the years ago when I was involved with my pediatric Home Care Business, I remember we were getting taken around some private equity people and I still can remember this. One guy asked me in the early days of the company, what's Your Exit Strategy? HMM, exit strategy. Yet still trying to figure out the entrance strategy, we mean exit strategy, and and so you know, ultimately you do. I think it's also helpful to figure out how what are you what are you building this company for? It? I mean there's there's a lot of good reasons to build it. You could say I want to build this for my family, so my children could be involved with it and so forth, and hopefully it'll be a legacy situation for many year or you know, some people are trying to build to go public. You know, some people are building it one day probably going to sell it to a larger organization. I mean, understanding that is important because decisions you make may be different depending on what you believe. What you believe your exit strategy will will ultimately be. And so we are talking. Earlier you were saying that building a business is like raising a child. Is Talk about that? Yeah, it's because you don't know what it's going to become. Right, you don't know what it's become. And even today, you know, we're a midsize, mid market company, which I you know, when Amazon said that about us, I thought, my God, I didn't feel it. You know, Snot knows little baby. Yeah, and so you don't. And one of the most most interesting things about building a company is you don't know what will become. It's you like with children. You try to give them your best advice, but I always felt like it's like trying to manage a snowball rolling downhill. You can't really control where it's going to can try to keep it from hitting a tree. I think that's kind of what I do, is I try to keep our company from hitting a tree. But there's so many moving parts in the bigger you get, the more rooting parts there are and and you you keep learning. So I'm very much still learning this. This company is getting to be bigger than any of the other I think it's except for one, but I really wasn't and I was on the board ultimately when I got that big. But this is the biggest that I've been involved with on the the management team. So it's challenging to me to see how good I can be doing this. So you know, the jury's out on me as well. I'll tell you right, right, but just like parents. Right, exactly. Yeah, and it's the reason that, looking back on it over these years, I know maybe fifteen years ago I was having lunch with this lady at Denver Children's Hospital when I was out there and they had a you know what our pediatric business called Kangaroo kids, and you know, we were just kick chat at the beginning the lunch and we were talking about what we had done in the past and I said I found cofounded that company with a dear friend of mine and she said Oh, she said really, she said we modeled our entire pen something que pediatric business off of what you built. Wow, and I thought, well, that's you know, that's why you do this. You don't do the money. You do this because the money you could lose tomorrow, but nobody can sort of take that away. You know the you that you know. We did something pretty cool over...

...there and I'm glad we did and it's, I guess, similar to satisfaction as a parent when you see her, you know your kids grow up and they're doing fine and and you're proud of them. You're very similar. I think that's great. So the other thing that I wanted to kind of talk about and share with our audience is this idea of thinly capitalizing your company's in and start up right and in really, it sounds like, just really functioning with that lean mindset all the way through the evolution and life cycle of the company talked about. Talk about that a little bit. Well, I you know, I I think private equity, particularly for young companies, is more of a curse than a blessing. You know, you have to ask yourself why are you raising money? Are you money so that you can have salary, a market rate salary, because, you know, I don't see where that makes a lot of sense for starters. Why? Why do I want to give about backwoody to somebody to raise money just so I have a salary? Like I'm in this company. Of course I've been a little bit different financial situation, you know, starting deer walk when I was starting the first one. So this one I work for free for three years and so did Rudra and so did several of our people, because it miitigated the need for capital. So now we're at this size, you know whatever. Ninety two percent of our company is owned by employees and just a small amount by friends and family that we allowed to invest, and for the most part they asked us to invest. We even ask them. When I was young, my first one, I think I worked off I think my salary was a hundred fifty dollars a week. So you just and I just figured out what I could eliminate, you know, from my bills, so that my monthly not as an individual, was as small as possible and to be able to sustain that for as long as possible to get the company to the point where eventually it could afford to pay a little bit more. And that's it. And so when you do that, you think of things, ways to do things that are that you would not do if you had tons of money. I'll give you I'll give you sort of one example, kind of example. We even it it deer walk. We did this. You know, there's trade shows, there's industry shape trade shows. If you had a lot of money, we're going to spend tens of thousand dollars on boosts, on, you know, all kinds of collaterals and try to make a splash at that trade show. And the truth of it is, depending on the trade show, there's there's so many bigger companies that have massive displays and nobody even seizures. Anyway. We couldn't afford to, you know, even sign up for the trade shows, so we just go sit in the bar, people in the bar. We would and we'd try to set up meetings at the trade show so all the customers were there right simply try to set up meetings. We have fifteen and twenty meetings at it at a trade show, sitting out in the lobby the hotel because it was efficient. You make one plane for white in, you have, Yep, your hotel room. They have fifteen, twenty meetings and fly out. I mean that's how you know, that's one way to save money in an early stage company and yet still be able to go to these things and see as many people as you can see. But if you look through all all parts of Your Business. You can find all kinds of things you can cut out and figure out some way to to try to do it efficiently, if if you can be creative. So then let's talk about the efficiency with product strategies. So, you know, a lot...

...of healthcare innovators have a tendency to want to, you know, if they have the resources to pile every feature and functionality that they can into that innovation. And you know, I've seen if they've. If they raise a million dollars, you know there might be putting seven hundred and Fiftyzero or more of it into the product. And then really, you know, when it comes to two different things stand out. One, you know, there's a lot of extra features and functionality that the target market doesn't really even want once it goes to market. And then too, they don't have any resources, or extremely little resources, to actually commercialize their innovation or go to market. So speak to what your experience was in that process and what were some of the barriers or obstacles or some of the things that you did that you think influenced your success. Well, we didn't do that. Yes, for starters right, didn't try to build why we're are having this conversation. That sounds like a fine way to wey seven her fiftyzeros. We didn't do that. What what you have to understand is, I think it was I think, I think this is a Mike Tyson quote, is is that you know, a plan and a strategy is great until you get punched in the mouth, Uh Huh. And so you just have to realize when you do this you're going to go on and get punched in the mouth a lot. And and so what we do is we have an agile development process. We every time we try to build a product, we look to have one of the very minimum requirements, we think, to be able to sell it. And that's usually something we can develop and say ninety to one hundred and twenty days, and then we have a new release every four weeks on our our plan analytics product, which is sort of a flagship product for us, where I think we're on our eighty five release now, so eighty five consecutive months of releases. And and some of those releases were sort of presale. It mean even the Ninety d twenty days was was was pre sale. And then what you got to find our some people, mean come one way or the other that are willing to be guinea pigs, be willing to be your first customers. Yeah, and or, you know, and I always I don't try to give this stuff away for free, because he'll value it as much as they paid for it. So if they're paying you money, they're going to be more critical, they're going to tell you what they do like and don't like. If they're not paying anything, they may not even use it, and they're certainly. So what's there incentive to kind of complain and so forth, and and and and people that sort of give you the most grief, which there's a tendency to think all these guys are just, you know, pains in the Butt and you know, Heck with them. So those are your best customers. They're called your QC departments right right rights, telling you what you're not doing. Well, so we have had got some of our early customers still with us. So I just met with one. I guess it was yesterday or the day before, I can't even remember, and it's just it's always so grateful when I meet them because they were we had a lot more blemishes, when we put it that way, and they stuck with us and then you have to listen to them. So they provide content and it's going to get you know, several of these kind of customers. You know, somebody might give you some idea and it might be unique to them and you know you might be going down a rat hole, whereas if two or three people are saying the same thing for some feature they'd like to develop, I mean it's also helpful for you to stand back and say, okay, they've asked for this. Does this seem like it's something that would make sense for a broad audience or not? And I mean there's a lot of ways you...

...have to decide what you want to put in your road map. But but I would you know, I'm a big believer. I wasn't always are our CTEO, who I would? I would say this. There's been two people in my life that have taught me more than anybody else that I've worked with. What he's the only one that's the one that younger than me. He is twenty one years younger than me. I've learned more from him than I'm just so blessed these with us. He's now our Clo and he's the one that I used to argue with about. You know, we're that we're releasing to to too suitain, like these four week sprints were we're too quick, and he's he convinced me otherwise. He was absolutely right. Small sprints achievable and just keep rolling it out. That's in that and so you can kind of pivot when you see opportunities or if you see her going down a wrong road. That's that's kind of the way to go and that's that's been the key for what we've done here, I'm sure of it. So, so it sounds like you're describing like right rabbit cycle innovation, and you know this adge, I'll methodology and environment for innovation. So you know, how do you think that that's really influenced your success? If you weren't structured that way and built your entire product development process around that? You know, how do you think that that would make a difference for you, meaning if we didn't have an agile process? Yeah, if you, if you, if you weren't doing that cyclical, short term innovation where you're continuously pumping out new innovation but it's very small and incremental, so you're not ever in a process what you're over developing. Yeah, well, what I would say is what's great about the reason that I think if you if you're not doing it this way, you need to convert to to it this way, because you'll you'll, you'll create stuff nobody cares about. Plus it's it's it's sort of but let me give you the benefits, the marketing benefits from what we do. Yep. So every month we've got a new release of features that then we can take out and push out to every prospect of this is what happened this month, and then next month will push it out. And what what I've seen from our we got so we got a brilliant sales team, to our chief growth officers. You know my town and sales y ever or I'm just I feel like I'm going to dug out managing a bunch of superstars, but in it because I am. But you you every month to keep pushing this stuff out, and then the prospects get this sort of fear of being left out right because our competitors don't do this right. They do that every six months, every year. So we've got a prospect that has that we're trying to get business from somebody else. They're seeing nothing new and what they're using and every month somebody from our company is sending them an update. We're not even hard selling. We just said Hey, what, just so you know, this is what we did this month. Just so you know, this is what we did this month. And it actually I was on a call this week with a very large prospect for us that we tried for I think three or four years ago. We didn't get it. We were too small really at that time not come back to us, and so what we did was we put together a power point of all the features that we've developed every quarter in the in the couple of three, four years, whatever it's been since they've been with us, and it's like, so this is what you missed out for persuasion. Yeah, so, but it you know, it's one...

...thing to just put a list together, but it's another thing when you just because people say, what's Your Road Map going forward? I like to say, let me show know you what we've done in the last year, because know whether to believe me or not on the road map going forward. I'm going to tell you some good stuff going forward, but let me show you what we've done by month over the last year and you decide whether you think I can roll that out or not? Hmmm, pretty persuasive argument we found. So so what was it like getting your first customers? And you know, early in the beginning? Well, you know, you just sort of you, you you reach. I mean what I do when I start a company is I literally go back through everybody that I know and I just call everybody I know and tell them what I'm now doing. I mean is that I just stay on the phone and, you know, reconnect and I would say that for every company your your throughout your life, you have to understand that every relationship your building is not for the thing you're doing at the moment. It's it's an asset you retain for the rest of your life and so obviously, as you get older, you have more of those assets for people to call when you when you when you're younger. But you just you just call everybody you know and people will say, Oh, you need to talk to this person and you need to talk to that person, and you're going to find people who are open to whatever it is you're doing. Is as long as you're you're meeting some sort of market need, because they're going to be somebody that's saying yeah, I got something in that area. I'm not really happy with that. Sure, I'll have a look at what you're doing. Or they're saying I don't have anything. I'd like to see it. So, for example, in our industry, twenty years ago with our prior company, almost everybody I talked to had nothing. So the challenge there was trying to explain to them that they didn't know they had a need because they had nothing. So how did they tell them that there was a need? And now that there's a need, this fits that need right right. Was One challenge. By the time we had started this company, which would have been, I guess, nine years after that, or nine or ten, the industry had changed. So everybody had something in part because of what we had built before, not exclusively us, but we contributed to it. Now we had to go in and say, you already have something, this is better than that thing you already have, including to some people who have bought for me before. So it's kind of Buick. I got a Cadillac and the catialage better than the Buick, but I sold you and I told you that was the best thing to last right. And then you know the look at you say it's because there wasn't a cadillac before. The bulic was the best thing the last time. So great response. Yeah, there's different there are different challenges and it'll differ depending on what people are doing. But you'll find there's there are people out there their perspective, customers that want that are early adopters by that's their personality. You've got to find the early adopters from a customer perspective who are willing to take a chance. M and they'll try to take, you know, a pound of flesh from me and you pretty much got to give it up, you know, but I would say don't give it away. Yeah, that's something for it, because otherwise that you want them invested in it. It's just you just have to work. There's no magic. It's why I said it's not glamor. She's got to take up the phones are called because just got to work. So, as we wrap up here, I have one last question for you. So we've got...

...a lot of listeners out there who are health innovators. They're in start up or early stage mode. What are two or three lessons or recommendations that you want to share with them that we haven't already talked about that that you recommend for them? Well, I would say a don't quit. Right, it's really easy to quit. Don't quit sometimes, you know, you don't know what struggle here you signed up for. You know, the first thing I did. I thought we'd know, you know, whether as a hit or not ninety days. Well, that that was that was not the case and in that particular company it just took a long time to take off book. But if you don't quit, you eventually find in your and you're adaptable, you'll eventually, you know, find success this. The second thing is don't, don't get locked into, you know, some business plan that says this is how we're going to do it, because the only thing I know about any business plan that's ever been written is it's wrong. You know, it's just wrong, and you don't know what's going to work until you get out there. So it's you have to be very flexible, including, you know, not getting your ego caught up in it like that. Well, I thought of this and by God, this is going to work the way I want it to work. It's that's not how you know, that's just not how life works. And the third thing is the people that you surround yourself with, and particularly as you get bigger. The thing that the quality that I think for me, why I'm able to make this work is I really hate to lose and that's surrounded by people that hate to lose more than I do. And you really have to hate to lose. And and it is an example of that. I had heard a couple weeks we have a we have a competitor that somehow, I got some feedback that it couldn't figure out where they kept losing to us and and and at the at the sea sweet level. I don't know if it's true or appen at the sea sweet level. They they they're feeling is, well, we're just it's coming down to price, for we're low ballowing the price. That's that's why we're winning. And I kind of smile at that because not that it. That's wrong and they're thinking the wrong thing. It's that I know if you're making if you think that, but you don't hate to lose, because I never think we lost because somebody just underbid us. I you know, I think, what did I do wrong? What did we do wrong? What could we do better than extime? And if I'm not doing it. Everybody else on our team's doing it because we just, you know, we are feeling is. You know, you might beat this once on something, but it ain't ever happening again. And you just have to have that attitude because you're going to lose a lot more than you win. We lose a lot more than we win, and and you. But you can't make excuses for your losses. You know, the Best Asset for an entrepreneur is a mirror. You know, you just need to be able to look in the mirror and because that's usually who's blame, is the person on the other side of the mirror. Do that you, you know, you kind of have the attitude to persevere, Yep, living are and right and be willing to to look at ourselves in the mirror. Well, thank you so much for that golden wisdom. You know, it's hard to believe. You know, you and I met ten years ago and you've taken this company from you know, you and your team have taken this company from nothing to today. I know that you have a million lives on your platform, seven million, and destined for what? By the end of this year, we think about ten. I mean we know we're going to be over nine, maybe ten if we a little bit...

...of Lok. So we'll see. That's great. Yeah, we want from is you give your perspective of the trajectory. We went over five million and October and we'll be able to seven million in end of this month. Congratulations, movement. Yeah, thanks, and you stayed really humble, really modest, and you've done a you've done a fantastic job. Thank you. Congratulations on all your success. Thank you so so, Jeff. As we wrap up here, tell our audience how they can get ahold of you. What's the best way for people to connect with you? If there's some innovators out there that want to ask you some, you know, questions in the future? Oh sure, you can reach out to me on linked in or my email is Jay gass or JAVASC are a deer walkcom. Feel free to shoot me an email or reach out to me on Linkedin. I love, you know, talking to people and I love learned about their businesses. Anyway. It's it's fun, so happy to help. If somebody thinks of something I can do to be of assistance. Of the happy to help. Well, and you know, the whole reason we have this show is because we're all in this together, right, and my success is your success and your success is their success and it's really going to take all of us to be able to move the needle and healthcare it is and it's fun hearing everybody's story because it's a really cool stories out there. Yeah, absolutely, I'm the lucky one that gets to interview all you and here all these stories. Well, thanks for your time, Jaff appreciate it. Until next time, everyone. Bye Bye. What's the difference between launching and commercializing a healthcare in avation? Many people will launch a new product, few will commercialize it. To learn the difference between watch and commercialization and to watch past episodes of the show, head to our video show page at Dr Roxycom. Thanks so much for watching and listening to the show. You can subscribe to the latest episodes on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcasts and spotify, or subscribe to the video episodes on our youtube channel. No matter the platform, just search coiq with Dr Roxy. Until next time, LET'S RAISE OUR COIQ.

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