Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 122 · 3 months ago

How psychology affects digital health commercialization w/ Dr. Talya Miron-Shatz

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

When most folks think of psychology, they’re miles away from thinking about digital health commercialization - and that’s a shame.

A key ingredient in successful commercialization, of any kind, is understanding human behavior. Because if you understand past behaviors, you can better predict future behavior.

And when your digital health solution is sitting at the convergence of behavioral economics, science, psychology, and medicine, there’s no one better equipped to point you in the right direction than this week’s guest, Dr. Talya Miron-Shatz.

Dr. Miron-Shatz is an expert when it comes to understanding why people react, act, and behave as they do toward digital health, and she’s brought receipts.

If you’ve ever wondered how, or why, the power of the situation might influence your target market’s thoughts, feelings, or behaviors toward your product, you need to listen in!

Here are the show highlights:

  • 3 key elements to the commercialization process (3:28)
  • Put a little sci-fi into your medication adherence (5:01)
  • Can psychological marketing segmentation fuel commercialization? (7:13)
  • One-size-fits-all messaging (and why it doesn’t work) (13:26)
  • Why psychology is crucial for successful digital health tech (17:51)
  • How to operationalize a personalized experience (32:03)

Guest Bio

Dr.Talya Miron-Shatz is a leader at the intersection of behavioral economics, psychology, and medicine and the CEO of CureMyWay, an international consulting firm in the health sector.

A post-doctoral fellow of Nobel Laureate Daniel Kahneman at Princeton University, Dr. Miron-Shatz has taught consumer behavior at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. She brings her vast knowledge to her industry work, as a consultant and speaker.

With over 60 publications in top academic journals, her recent book, Your Life Depends on It: What You Can Do to Make Better Choices About Your Health, is a deep dive into how patients and healthcare professionals think, with crucial lessons for the healthcare industry.

If you want more information about Dr. Miron-Shatz and her work, visit their website at TalyaMironShatz.com or, you can find her on LinkedIn @Talya Miron-Shatz, PhD

Like you're listening to health innovators, a podcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adopters who are shaping the future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back to the show health innovators. On today's episode I'm sitting down with Dr Talia Meron shots, who is the CEO of cure my way. Welcome to the show, Dr Talia. Thanks for having me. Dr Roxy, it is good to have you here. So, Um, I like to start off by telling our listeners a little bit about your background and, Um, what you do. Yes, so, I have a PhD in psychology and I do medical decision making. Basically, I do research and consulting in how people understand medical information and what they do with it. So first you have to understand it cognitively, then you have to, sorry, understand what it means for you in terms of action, and this needs to be followed up by actually sorry, Oh my God, do you want to stop for a minute? It's the second PhD in psychology. Thank you. So I have a Ph d in psychology. I'm a full professor and in the University of Cambridge I'm a visiting researcher so that's where I stand academically, and what I do is they do research on medical decision making. I wrote a book on Medical Decision Making and they do a lot of consulting work on implementing everything I know, which means how do under how do people understand medical information? People being your clients, people being your users, people being a combination thereof, or being the supervisors or the decision makers. Sorry, you need to understand what it is you're doing, why is it great, and how to use it. So there's the cognit development and then there's motivation. Motivation means adherence to medication, to treatment, to using a device, because fitbits, are environments, etcetera, are often deserted after four months. That's why people who have actually been using them, medication people take about half the time if you average it across time periods and medications, and these are things that you could say. Well, the motivation should be inherent. I mean it's your health. But guess what, these mechanisms still need to be built in into the device, into the service constantly wisely. So when someone asks me so, should I bring you along, like after I created the product? You like a kind of a marketing king and I'm like, you might want to bring me before you create the product, and let's think about what people will want to have in it, how they'll want it presented to them, how it needs to be designed so they can understand it. Because sometimes you have really great ideas but if you don't convey them well, your users are not going to like them. And Liking is actually super important because in our world, in my world of Behavioral Economics and Psychology, we understand that people think, but they also feel, and feeling is much more immediate and oftentimes much more powerful. So when you're creating something that's really smart for people, for their help, you might think, well, you know, I don't care if they like it, but the truth is they need to or they won't continue using it over time. So on this show we talk a lot about commercialization, commercializing innovations, because it's a big gap in the market. Right we all get excited about talking about the sexy tech Um, but if we don't know how to commercialize it effectively, it won't it into the hands of the people that need it most and you know,...

...we won't be successful in transforming the industry. So, from your perspective. Um, I know my point of view of why I invited you to be here today, but from your perspective, how does your Um insights knowledge in practice? How does that affect the commercialization process? I think it's key. I think you need to have in our world, you need to have three key elements. You need to have the medical side, you need to have the technological side and you have got to have the psychological side. It's crucial because if you haven't dealt with it, then you're selling your product that people maybe are unsure of how to use. Maybe you haven't built in the trust mechanisms and you can say them on this is funny, like you're almost talking about a relationship with a device, with the machine. You're being ridiculous here. Guess what? I'm not, because people will say, Oh, I love my whatever, I love this APP, I love this Fitness Watch, I love you know, people get attached to their ipads, their iphones, their laptops, everything. It becomes very personal and that is something that you have got to consider throughout. Um. I was at a conference years ago and I saw this little like robot thing that was a digital medication dispenser Um, and people were talking to it, they were supposed to write. There was a I built in and they were talking to it and the little device was asking the patient, you know, how many doses they had on hand and, you know, just kind of get gathering some of that adherence information. And I had heard that they were befriending these robots and people were even starting to sell like clothes to dress them up in the whole bit, because these were one of their friends now, this little robot that was in their home. Yeah, yeah, I agree. You know, we could we could think of it as some weird sci fi innovation, but we can say there's a real need here. The need is for people to adhere to their medication. It's difficult because it's complicated, it's differ and that's the practical aspect. It's difficult because sometimes they don't understand or they get confused about the regime, and it's also difficult because it's not pleasant to take a lot of medication and you have to wait and you know it's a slop and it's a constant reminder that you're not doing very well on top of that. Sorry, just just to finish the spot with the robots. A lot of people get lonely. A lot of older people, senior citizens, they get lonely and that's that's a predicament in and of itself. So the robots fills these these functions and I think it's beautiful. It's actually a great way to talk about commercialization, because you could say, but what do these people need? They need their medication dispensed to them. And then you can take a step backwards and say, who are these people? They might be a little old, they might be a little lonely, maybe they have other needs, like they need to engage with someone, to have to have a nice chat with someone. And when you've layered this on top of the medical need of having to take your medication, people like it. They might even become addicted to it because like it becomes a chat and that's the emotional aspect so wisely was embedded in the robots. M Hm, yeah, very true. So, you know, I want to talk about so from my perspective, healthcare as a whole has been very much behind when it comes to marketing, when it comes to integrating psychology and marketing, or psychology even outside of marketing. Right Um, whether we're talking about product development or marketing and in my experience, very often when I'm working with companies they're initially starting off with kind of am I don't know that we even need to have these, you know, let's say,...

...email marketing programs or communicate digital journeys with patients or with providers, and then if you can get them to kind of buy into it, even if they do, it's still kind of thinking of it as a one size fits all. So let's say, for example, we're talking about a business that supports many different therapies. Often I see that they're communicating with them like as patients, as one homogeneous group, or if they do any type of segmentation, it's like, well, these are an oncology patients, these are are hepatitis patients, and they might separate them like that. That's really the extent of it and that's probably really sophisticated compared to where I think the overall industry is. And what I hear you're saying is that, which I completely agree with, is we've got to go beyond that if we want to be able to really be effective. For sure, I think, and and it's fascinating, I'm giving a talk next week to this like it's organizational training, so to a group of managers. This one is about behavioral economics. The next one is about what is success. So basically, how do you define your goals? And it's amazing because there is tommunication. Is At fifty Um. WHAT'S A goal? What's going to be success? Maybe you can increase it to fifty six, maybe you can increase it to fifty five, and when you do that you need to ask yourself, so what does it mean? Does it mean that the person who used to miss one does a week now doesn't miss it at all, but the person who used to miss four doses a week still doesn't Miss it? So we can refine our work there. There's so much to say about what you said. The first thing is you know, back in the day when I was teaching consumer behavior at Worton, one of the first things is about exposure, and that's really what you're talking about the email campaigns. It's about telling your world hello, this wonderful thing exists, because everyone is so jaded and everyone is constantly bombarded with information, and that's like the firs staying in. The second thing that you said is truly important about segmentation. So when I think of it in terms of psychology, a lot of things come to mind, a lot of mechanisms. One of them is a personality variable that kind of became famous. It kind of became famous because it's called conscientiousness, and Angela Duckworth, also out of Gordon Um, created a similar variable, what you're called Grit. So great conscientiousness means I need to do this, I'm not enjoying it, but I will do it nonetheless because I need to do it. So if you're a patient and you need to do, for example, physical therapy, like you need to turn your arm around, and maybe you just had surgery one, two or three, by eight, you know, you're like Ah, and maybe by nine you're yelling and then the neighbors are like what happened? Right, YOU'RE gonna new number ten. You might be crying with pain, but you'll do it because you have the conscientiousness. So it's very possible that for you, you don't need to be boosted all the time because someone says Roxy Turn your arm round ten times, take of medication, use the device and you're like, okay, I'll do it, and others are much less so. And you need to reinforce them. So that's personality based segmentation. There's also segmentation based on where is the person in their journey, and actually this is something that constantly shocked at how missing it is from our marketing, from our patient support programs, because I do a lot of work with Pharma and they spend a lot of money on patient engagement and vision, and you know that. And patient support, and mostly with particular kinds of diseases. Um You know what he does that around headache medication, unless it's caused by something absolutely terrible. And there's always the question of how does the person feel about their condition, which can also be about something as mundane as diabetes. So is...

...the patient understanding and accepting that they have diabetes and they just need to be informed, or are they saying this is stupid um or with the high blood pressure even worse? Or you know, a year olds relation, you don't feel them double stupid right. It's even harder for anyone to convince the person that there's something wrong with them. And obviously with a year old fibrilation, when there is something wrong with them, it's they've just had a stroke. So they don't want to get there. So you need to understand where they are in the journey. Are They in denial? Are They in resistance? How are you going to help them? How are you going to break this barrier? And they talked about, you know, going up from fift what about those people who might be there on the side, never taking their medication at all, never using their device or their equipment or anything you want to sell them that could make their life better? Their life, I mean your life, but also their life and everyone's health outcomes and their health systems, financial outcomes, everybody. Maybe they're saying this is stupid, I don't need this because I don't have the stupid condition and everything is so stupid because they resisted, you know. And Yeah, you need to work around that. You're actually doing them a huge favor because pretending like you don't have diabetes, well, guess what, that could come back and bite you and likewise many of these conditions. But that's really another form of segmentation that you can only get to if you understand that this is an issue. Um, so, I remember working like someone a long time ago. The way they were describing it was around like mind genomics, and it was kind of the very similar to what you're talking about. It was this mind science of Um. It's kind of just using the example of medication adherents, that if you have one message that there there are some questions that you could ask a whole patient population to kind of identify what buckets or categories they fit into, and then you'd be able to determine that this one message, if you put it in front of, let's say, thirty percent of that patient population, you would motivate them to do the behaviors that you wanted them to do, but if you put that same message in front of another you would actually get an opposite effect of what you were looking for, Um and how important it was to really be able to understand that and then customize your programs accordingly. Right, exactly. So one thing comes to mind, and there's and there's many more. One of the things is about the messages that pharmaceutical companies would always send or often stand around aging, and they will show too gray individuals. They're a man and a woman. No, who am I getting? A hundred percent of the time, come on, a woman and they're getting older and it's all about getting to see your grand kids. Yeah, guess what, not everyone isn't. This is, uh, a man and a woman living together. Not everyone has a partner. What if someone's senior and you're just telling them, well, you're alone, which means you're not really who I care about. I care about people who are not single. Or you're gay. Well, guess what, you know, you're not going to see someone like you in a commercial. You're just gonna see someone else. Or you don't have grandkids and maybe you're finer like maybe you're not, and someone is just rubbing it in your face and assuming. So that's that's another element and these can be very hurtful. Um, there's something else that I wanted to want and who wants to think of ourselves with the gray haired people, even if we are. It is, it really is. So there's a lot of market research to be done and there's also a lot of of trust and understanding that need to be embedded into these campaigns and it's crucial. So I was...

...involved with the health agency, Health Advertising Agency, who came to me saying look, we tried something and we try the diabetes support program and it's great. It's great. We're giving people glucometers, we're giving them support calls, were that that was like. Those were the main elements, and the company pays, obviously, but six months down the road, for every hundred employees with diabetes, you only had eight on the program that's not great really by any standard. And when we looked in the data and when we spoke with the patients, we understood. First of all, they got glucometers. Did they say they needed glucometers? Because you know that. Give me the freak stop. Now it's like it's going to innovation. Maybe you have something and it's working and you don't. You really don't want to bother yourself with something new. And you could be a patient and you could be a doctor, because getting to know something new is a Schlub as a hassle. Where do I push the button? What does this mean? Why is this? Why is this not working? You know, maybe because you don't know how to work it, but maybe you don't have the mind space to learn it. If you're a doctor, who can blame you? If you're a patient, it's difficult. So you have that. So the glucometer sounded like a great idea, but they didn't really care to a need and the calls people found them incredibly interested because they weren't on boarded properly. So you get a call and someone says, Doctor Roxy, I see your the sugar level is going up, and you're like, who are you? What are you calling me? Give you permission? Do I know you? And that's that's another today is the world. You're like, is this SAM? Is this? Yeah, trying to you, trying to Um, you know, just pull my identity factors from me exactly. So so. So there's that and there's something else. And it was funny because I read about it in the in the newspaper, as a success story. So it was about this girl called Lexie, or young adult, I think she was around twenty, and she had a fitness watch and it wasn't working well. It was like buzzing in a weird sort of way for a few weeks. Now that's how she interpreted what was happening. In truth, there was something wrong with her heart rate. So that exactly, that was what the fitness watch was detecting. So technologically perfect, medically wonderful, psychologically really not great at all. Because she didn't understand what was happening. She left her mom eventually wore the watch and the weird buzzing stopped. So they said, oh, so it's not that the watch is broken something what's going on? Then they realized. They looked and it really I found it's so symbolic that they said, look at this great success story, because when they looked into it they understood that there was something wrong with their part rate. They rushed her to the r within a few days she was operating up. It could have killed her. But it makes no sense to me that you have input that you cannot interpret. So there's no comprehension of the medical information and there's no implication. So someone tells you you're whatever is this high. What does it mean? What do I do? Should I rush to the yard? Should I stop having, I don't know, pancakes? What happens next? And there's no and the next step is not there for liability reasons, for a bunch of reasons which I understand, but if you really want to have an effective innovation, this is the next step, because then you're constantly giving people value, constantly you're giving them feedback, you're motivating them. I don't see that in a lot of the...

Um digital health applications that I'm exposed to. I see the medical side is wonderful, the technological side is beyond and the psychological side is definitely lagging behind, but it is crucial for effective us. Well, it makes me think of a lot of the biased these and assumptions that we have about people where, you know, an example that you just gave her being a twentysomething year old because she's young, she's a millennial, you're assuming that she understands technology. So you maybe don't even need to explain those things Um and I think a lot of times we assume that if somebody's over fifty that they are going to be less tech savvy. So that that, you know, we just we kind of put people in age buckets and go, Oh, you know a lot, you know just a little bit, you don't know much or you're not interested, and just kind of have all these assumptions about that. But it's not always Um tied to a each Um. You know, you're gonna have some twenty year olds that are not tech savvy and some fifty year olds that are. Can Run circles around those millennials, sure, for sure. And also there's something that's crucial to important. So that's crucial to remember so when I wrote my book, Your Life depends on it. What you can do to make better choices about your health. And since this is on the video, you get to see the book. And where can people find it? You Bo can buy whenever, wherever books are sold. That's where they can find it, all right, Amazon or anywhere, to your local bookstore. Amazing. So when I wrote the book, Are you right here? Thank you, hello, amazing. Yes, read it, then tell me what you thank you, guys. Um. I wrote about how difficult it is to be a patient and how really it brings it brings you down in a way that is emotional and cognitive. So I quoted and it was a big hit a few years ago. It's one herful book by Paul Callanetti, who was a physician, was a surgeon, and he had cancer and he wrote about his encounter with a physician when he was a patient. So he knew more than the doctor who was treating him, but he was deferring to her. There was something that made him disempowered, made him feel powerless, sitting in that patient seat for once, like reversing reversing seats, being scared, being anxious. So you could be a Nobel Prize winner. But when you have a pain and you're scared about it and when you're sitting next to your spouse who isn't doing great, it doesn't help that you have the literacy level of a of a genius, of you know, a brilliant person. It's probably safer to communicate with you at the level of a fifth grader and to allow for a drill down. And actually this issue of literacy, of how of literacy, it's crucial. So it's it's and it's a simple fix. Really. You just need to realize that you can't use technical terms or medical terms and assume that people will understand them, because I see some of the brightest people that I know stumbling upon these words because they just don't understand. But it's not on them. So it's on them, it's on whoever explains it to them. And if it's anything digital, it has to be it has to be clear and we can't assume that things are self explanatory. You know, I worked with a company that let me try a glucose meter. I said, you know, I couldn't work it. I tried. It was super frustrating. So intuitive, is it really? Are you sure, I don't know. Well, maybe it is for some people and that's great, maybe it's not for others. So help them with words and with instructions and really never, never putting the onus on the person. The...

Otis is on the person to use it, to do their best and it's unused the developer to make sure that they understand that it's clear to them that it's not super frustrating. Does they understand the language to use the implications? Um, one last thing about this. They have a great colleague from Finland and we looked at mobile phones. We looked at people when they were just when they were switching into smartphones, and we stopped that. They understand that getting a new phone and learning it, it takes time and it can be frustrating. So that's okay. There's a learning curve and people take that into account, but it can't be too steep. Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy? I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy which is why I created the ovid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities. Learn more at legacy, Hyphen DNA DOT COM. Backslash Kit. Let's kind of just have Um, a little um imaginary situation here where you're working with someone who is a health innovator and, in a perfect world, they are open to all of your expertise and they have the resources to have you through, through out the journey, from end to end, wherever they need you, and to be able to implement all of the ideas that you have. What does that look like? What are some of the strategies, Um, that health innovators need to consider or deploy in order to increase their likelihood of commercialization? Um with with people, because we're talking about patients a lot. But you know, really, this is applicable to any group of people. Right. Um, the first thing, I guess, is to understand what the burning needs are, not what you know to do technologically, but what the needs are, because if you have equipment that caters to a need that's already being catered to, then you need to have a really to give people a really good reason. Whoever we'll be using it be, the physicians, technicians and their executive health care executives need to pay the bill. What is their need? So is it going to shortened, accuse, is it gonna be Shiny and look amazing and no one else will have it? Because I worked with this company was that created something for eyes and they could send patients home back in the day with CDs. Or you can send them with something. You can give them a clip, you can a TIKTOK. God knows what they'll come open next. But if you cater to a medical need that's already been catered to, then cater to something, to some other need, cater to the coolness need, cater to the need of this is something I can send the patients and they'll understand and they'll prepare better say, for surgery or or anything which will save me time and reduce the amount of no shows and reduced the amounts and call anoscopies. Between Twenty five and thirty five percent of patients who come in are sent back home because they haven't prepared. Well, so we know how to do a callinoscopy, right, but if you create something that caters to the...

...need of reducing the no shows, that's great. So understand, understand the needs. I mean it's a little bit of I think, use other use the other person's perspective. I guess it's not just to be in love with your own technology, which you absolutely should, because it's your own technology, but also to really not be super angry when someone says, well, I already have a m hmm that does what you're doing and well, you do it better. Okay, amazing, but what's their reason for using it? And that's one thing. I just want to let all of our listeners know that I did not pay you to say all of this. Um, this is like one of my soap boxes, like I am. So I mean it's so sad on how many people are starting off with tech and not starting off with real, validated needs. This you know, entire business models built upon assumptions and it's just a recipe for disasters. So I really, really value and appreciate that you're reminding the audience Um the need and the purpose of that. Thank you, I appreciate it, and you know, it's not that I don't completely value technology. I absolutely do. I just know you can invest so much time and so much money in creating something that that is not bought and that is incredibly frustrating this. It really nobody wins from that at all. Another another piece and a divergence, is to make sure that use is simple, is clear, and if diverges, because this applies to patients and it applies to transitions or any kind of healthcare providers that might be using the device. I mean, are they smart? Of course. Are they overwhelmed? You Bet job. So how do you prevent these overwhelmed, albeit smart, people from saying, yeah, I don't want to deal with it? It goes back to the needs, but once you can apply them with this wonderful technological innovation, you also have to have to make it very clear for them how they're going to use it. Um something else that I saw, and I saw it a lot with medication is that you need to convince people and you need to convince people in a number of ways and probably to create awareness before you start selling. So again, I'm very familiar with the pharmaceutical world, also in the device world. With the pharmaceutical world. It's very organized because your target audience is very clear. You sell the medication to cardiologists. You bring in a shiny advisory board of cardiologists with their sports cars. Um, they're very alpha. It's it's it's like Whoa. It's a very specific kind of energy to be in the room with them and you have to talk to them and you have to enlist them and you have to get them to use whatever it is you want them to use and you have to under understand ahead of time what their objections might be and to try to pull them in together. Again, this goes into what do they care about? They care about doing a really good medical job. They care about doing cutting edge things. They are they are kind of fearless, but they're also risk averse. I mean they don't want to kill people because they use a shiny new deside for technology. So you have to reassure them on one hand and to cater to their I almost want to stay desires, on another hand, because they really are ambitious people and they have these wishes that you might be able to help them, to help them accomplish. So that's another type. Then you have the whole aspect of health literacy, which, I know it sounds like a snooze. It's like, I don't care, you know, Ho on. And if you keep keeping it real, right, you know, health litters not the first thing. If we had, if we...

...were going to health innovation, Health Tech Innovation Conference, the Health Literacy session would not be the one. That's filthy. You could get you could, you could get a good seat, right. But if you call Um how to make sure your patients get it right, use your product, don't store it in the drawer or return it to the store or complain to their doctor about that thing that's not working, that's going to make a huge difference. Feed huge and if you're selling anything for healthcare providers, likewise. So again you said and I and I love it. You said that in the context of personality. Don't assume, don't assume that everyone's the saying that everyone likes the same things or has the same aspirations and don't assume that everyone can understand what you're saying, because you might very well be wrong, and then they'll theyn't blame your product, they'll blame you. And guess what, it's going to be your fault, because this really is on you. It really is an aspect that you need to deal with. So there's a couple of questions that come to mind that I'm sure the audience is thinking is Um you know, how do you identify those different characteristics or differences? And then, even if you could identify them and kind of put people in buckets, if you will, how do you operationalize those kind of personalized experiences, especially at scale? What are some of the examples of the work that you've done and how you've addressed some of those things? So I think when you do things a scale, sometimes you use brute force, but when you use brute force, you can do that by including, by incorporating mechanisms that will apply to as many people and also by removing as many barriers that will deter people from using your product. I'll give you an example that's related to trust, and I mentioned trust and you know, we talked about about schemes in the beginning, kind of, kind of jokingly, but I worked with a company that wanted to create a new model for healthcare insurance and their idea was to give you a credit card of sorts, not really a credit card of health credit card. To get it to work, you had to put in your credit card info, your own credit card info, and I was working with them. It was fascinating because I was working with them on their mock ups. I mean they hadn't even programmed anything. They just sent me all their mock ups and I spent a great too many happy hours going over these, which was fantastic because the cost was my time and they're redesigning their mock ups. Imagine that. It happened when the when the product came up. So I noticed, for example, that they asked you to put in Credit Card Info. They don't explain why it and they don't really create anything that would listed credibility or trust. So I thought the the average user would say, who are these people? Why should I give them my credit card infi not do that. And then you go to the doctor, you have the credit card, it's not working. You have the health credit card, it's not working. Because you didn't connect it with your credit card. Say. That's the sort of thing that you can do at scale and, more importantly, it removes a barrier. Now barriers are so important because in psychology we know that bad is stronger than good. If something bothers you but has some advantages, you're not going to use it, you're not gonna do it. If something has maybe fewer advantages but there's nothing about it, it bothers you, it stands a better chance. So that's the sort of thing you can do a scale...

Um, which is which is crucial. It's basically crucial because if you don't trust, you're not going to use UM. Other things that you can use again with with marketing. If you go and you segment and you can work in buckets and you can identify who belongs to which bucket, then you can definitely include and incorporate the specific and unique motivation. And if you can't, again you use blunt force Um, which is also great because, for example, if you know that people care about being connected with emotionally, then you'll do that and you'll include that, and some people more so than others. So you don't want to go overboard. So you're not deterring, but you have to create some sort of a connection and that's crucial. It's crucial when we meet our doctors. Um, if we don't feel that the doctor, if you don't feel that the doctor knows you as a person, you're less likely to take your HIV medication. Can you imagine? Um, and can can go south the conversation, but you feel no connection, you feel no care. Not Good. So this is another point that's crucial and it's often just left out. YEA, which is not great. And I love that you talked about the robots, because someone who designed the machine designed it with a face. It has a sweet round face. They felt about it. They wanted me to look at it and smile and two and I don't. I don't even know if it's on propomorphization. Um, when it's a robot, just a perfect amount. It's not an animal, just protect like it's human, no longer an inanimate object. It's animated exactly. So someone thought about it and and threw that in. And the last thing I want to say about that is you want people to use things over time. So plants the seeds for that. If they've used something for a week or two or three or four after four months. Four months sounds like the magic number and I'm getting it from a lot of places and platforms that do adherents and and with the fitness watches, four months you're like, okay, I'm out, like been there, done that. You don't need to do fitness anymore, you don't need to adhere to your medication anymore. I don't think right. So well, and just ask facebook right, how long did how long did they need to keep us engaged? Um, indefinitely? How often have they coming up with new engagement tactics and strategies? Always, it just never ends, unless you want people to just start dropping off. Yeah, act and facebook has it easy in the sense that your friends always do cool stuff off and there's always stuff to read and stuff to to respond to. Not Not that facebook are just sitting and not doing anything, but this also happens, and it's the absolute opposite of most things medical, which are also not rewarding and not fun. So you have to understand that this is really important for your health. Is, for some people a good enough motivator, and I mentioned conscientiousness, and for others just not enough, especially since they take the medication and nothing is happening, not really, but in their minds, nothing that they can feel. So this is this the type of things you need to be aware of. I think we underestimate the value of community around healthcare. So we've got a lot of these healthcare communities right like patients like me, but these are things that are like separate healthcare communities, not necessarily all of these innovators thinking about how can they build community within their solutions so that they have that inherent ongoing Um community engagement, that they don't have to do...

...all the heavy lifting, like facebook. You know, I agree, but I also think it's tricky. I mean, if we think of personalization, and I noticed from doing some work with patients like me, actually, ok, that the majority. I love them and I'm in touch with them since three thousand and I have been working with them recently. Okay, I know that the majority of people are passive. Don't come. They'll show up, maybe they'll read, maybe they'll ask a question. Maybe, you know, it's like when when you buy shoes on on on Amazon, or what did I buy? But whatever, you buy something on Amazon and then they send you a question. So you might be very timid. But they say, Roxy, how long ago you know did the he'll break and you say no, you just answer the question on Amazon that someone fed it to you. Someone gave it to you. So you're more likely, if you're if you're shy, you're more likely to do at to contribute content. So actually creating a community is a skill. Creating engagement is a skill. It's not just gonna happen. It's something you need to think of. Um like lurkers, like you only expect of the people to initiate that engagement. Right, eight percent or just kind of wandering and reading and observing and not really fully engaged. But you would never know that because their definite. They're not initiating these conversations exactly. So you have to lure them in. You're almost like a kindergarten teacher and saying what's your name, and Roxy, you know her breakfast and then you you know, and it's hard, it's it's a little bit like pulling teeth. So just to say here, here, kids, here, patients, gather around and you can talk amongst yourselves. It doesn't always happen. Sometimes you need to make sure that there's value that you're giving them when they're engaging. It's almost like everyone is going to be sitting on the lawn because you provided the lawn and the blankets and the popcorn and the movie, and then they're together. Maybe they're not talking to one another, but they're all together having a shared experience and something might happen. But you can't just say well, you know, there are some people they should get together right, right. This reeling needs to be nurtured and created and fed into it and I know that people also get very frustrated if they go on a platform and they ask a question and nobody answers. It's like they're like that was useless and they're never coming back now. This is this is painful. You want to create a community and think of what am I giving this community? Don't just think I'm giving them an opportunity to communicate, because they are multiple mechanisms around that. Yeah, it doesn't happen overnight, that's for sure. So Um, be rough up here. I just want to thank you so much for the time that you spent and just really being able to have this very, very important conversation. Um, I feel really strongly that this is one of those key ingredients that are missing from most UM companies, from most healthcare innovations and um and so I really appreciate you being here today. How can folks get ahold of you after the show if they want to follow up with you and get more information? For sure? So my name is Talia with a Y, myron shots, M I R O N s h a t Z. my website, surprisingly, is Talia myron shots dot com. So if you go on it there's a contact form. There are links to my multiple webinars and talks, including the one of the American Telemedicine Association recently, Webinars on behaviorally cannot makes a lot of good information, a lot...

...of information about my book. Your life depends on it, what you can do to make better choices about your health and about the work I do with companies, with various companies, from pharmaff from corporate, from multiple, multiple startups, self, advertisers, Etcetera. So, Talo with a why, myron shots dot com, and I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you so much for having you. Roxie, thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcasts, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening, and I appreciate everyone who shared the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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