Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 1 year ago

Slicing Pie: A Better Model For Splitting Equity in Early Stage Innovation w/Mike Moyer


Splitting equity can be a hard and emotional subject for innovators, and the models used for these splits can be unfair for the parties involved.

What is the Slicing Pie model and how does it solve many of these equity issues? How does this model help entrepreneurs work through the emotional aspects of giving up equity share? What are the different types of contributors in a startup and how do they get compensated differently?

In this episode, Managing Director at Fair and Square Ventures and creator of Slicing Pie, Mike Moyer talks about this new model, and how it helps innovators. 

Guest Bio- 

Mike Moyer is an entrepreneur, author, educator, Managing Director at Fair and Square Ventures and creator of Slicing Pie, an equity model for early stage bootstrapped startups.

Mike is an entrepreneur who has founded numerous companies including Bananagraphics, a product development and merchandising company; Moondog, an outdoor clothing manufacturing company; Vicarious Communication, Inc, a marketing technology company for the medical industry;, a site that helps students find the right college; and College Peas, LLC which provides publications and consulting on a variety of topics including, college admissions, trade shows and job search.

In addition to his experience as an entrepreneur he has held a number of senior-level marketing positions with companies that sell everything from vacuum cleaners to financial data services to motor home chassis to luxury wine.

Mike teaches Entrepreneurship at Northwestern University and the University of Chicago Booth School of Business.


For more information, visit

Welcome to Coiq, where you learn howhealth innovators maximize their success, you're working on somethingbig, something like saving something world changing. Yet ninety five percentof health, innevation failed and real lives are on the line. That's whylaunching is not enough. Commercialization is the most criticalyet overlooked stage of the innovation process through candid conversationswith health, innovators, ferlyadoctors and influencers you'll learn the fivecomponents of the COIQ early adoption strategy. So if you want to changelives and dominate your market, why not give your innovation the best chance tosucceed? I'm your host Dcor Roxsey, founder of legacy, DNA andinternational death selling author of how health innovators maximize marketsuccess and now, let's join the conversation and maximize your success.Welcome back to you IQ listeners on today's show, I have Mike Mawer with me.He is the author of slicing Pie and today we're going to be digging alittle bit deeper into what is slicing pie and how does it impact or how canhealth innovators benefit from this conversation and benefit from his book?Welcome to the show Mike and you rem Ir Raver me so tell our audience before we dig anydeeper, tell our audience a little bit about who you are and what you do. I am a career entrepreneur. I've spentmy life going from startup companies to real job, to startup, stril job back and forth. I work in all kinds of industries rangin fromfine wine, demotorome chesses to senior living to fishing typo boxes, so thatis diverse, Esar workedin, past six or eight years. I've brought a copanycalled Faran Square ventures where I've deen written number of books and runsome software companies, aever camping, Gar Company, and I teach at Universityof Chicago or an northwestern university and PREVIOUSL H, Universityof Chicago Business School Nice. What do you teach Entrepreneurtio,of course? So what is slicing pie slicing by is an equity model for earlystage boost jub startups. So one of the key problems at were the first deals.If founders do is a deal witween, each other and typically what happens? Is You andI will go start a comay together and we'll go it. Fifty fift Ecaus werefriends and you do all the work and I don't have to company I- and this is the common problem all overthe world and slicey Pi solves a problem by creating perfectly verygrees plit. It's the only model on the planet that actually creates Verichris,but every other every other. Now that we're stulding equaly creates aonnfairsh. But so you know this topic is seems to be areally hard. An emotional topic for health innovator Wolt for anyentrepreneur. But you know in the context our listeners are health,innovators, so explain to us a little bit about youknow: how does your model help us work through some of that difficulty and theemotions of giving a piece of your company away? Well, it's hard because it's veryambiguous and we struggle between our want to be our need to be Generangenerous with each other, and I need to be gready with or Greeinwe as much aswe can for ourselves. We also want be generous and y want them to feel rightabout it and so crates a lot of problems. But it's really not a verycomplicated problem. Do you know hot a Bot but got a big BAchock? Let's pretend that you and are going tobi bunk check together as a team, you not as a Ponas for as a team and we'regoing to spit the winning fi nd, fifty because wer friends, so you go to LasVegas. We each but a dollar on the same...

...hand to Black Jock. We don't know! Ifwe're going to win. We don't know how much you're going to win. We don't knowhow long it's going to take to whin. The future is unknowable right. Yeahhope we're. GOINNA WAI were hopeful, were optimistic, we', Ber, playing CASthing, Ita Win to the odds aren' really in our favor, but we're still playing so the DALOR deals to asencs. So whatdo you do? Th, those aces split them split, Hem, an double downright, I'm out of cash and you're not see put to Ur dollars down, sow youthat three dollas and I've only been a dollar. We still have no idea whit, thefuture old. You don't know we're going to win her howmuch you're, going to winr hole, Wis Coonti the future, still just as I noww it was before. Er Stildomestic, but we know ats, going on for Shar thosge a you bet. Three doars, notGor a dollar. I W you win, tes F. Fifty sonfair well depends on which place that you'rein right, well, Chang Nebe, fir twenty five rightright right, right, yeah, unles! I want to go in that wayisgetting the extra twenty five percent. You you tweny five percent Youshi thre pecent,soiological obvious on ambigos answer based on the facts. The case there's noother way to split it. I have a deal for fift fifty I couldsue you and probably win. That may be fair right. What's fair is that you're shurethe winnings should be base in your share o the bets. So starups are exactly the same thinginstead of being on cards or petting. Our ideas, weve bet our time and ourmoney, an our facilities and our relationships and or equiment ar spies.We've contribute all kinds of things to start up for which we're not paid thatamount Thoyr, not payin as eqal to the spair market, value that contributionand that epens are bed. So when you bet your time, you're betting, a FA marketbilling your time, you're, not betting. More than that, you know, I mean manMessin- that if you're worth ONA thousand dollars a year and you workfor me for ever year- you've bet a hundred thousand dollars onpaidconversations, but don't pay you. If you put in your tractor and ItortTwenty Sanddolar, you Ben Twen hozand dollars worth of tractor. So if youcontigued, you start it. UN You're not paid you're exsentially betting on thefuture profits, your capitalgatd that stare up. So you think about that way.All you got to do is keep track of the bets, and you know exactly who yourECIS Po should be: That's the basic sofcicing by okay. So how so? Just kind of help us out here howshould equity be divided amongst cofounders and investors and earlyemployees give us. So I appreciate the poker example. I mean the blackjackexample, because that makes that makes it easy to understand the slicing piemodel. But let's talk about like a real worldexample. How are you fairly using your model to spreadequity amongst different players and different types of players? So there'sthree basic kinds of contributors to Staro company payers, the startup team,which I call a grunt. It's called a GRUNDFUND, sometimes start up teammemberis somebody who can ti Ese to start up and is not paid for thecontribution, whether be time or materials or money that they're notreimbursorin expenses, at' Te Start up team member and you can call them afounder or an early employ whatever you want, if someone's contributing and notgetting paid, ther placing vants just like anybody else. So I could call youmy employee, but if you're placing tat you trange the same as me, insize youby the second hand of investor contributor, is called an angelinvestor, an angel of vestors Hame to invest their own money in mounts thatare too small to funded operations in the forseepal future, so chunks of cash.Ten Thousand Twenty thousand thirty thousand hundred ound small chunks, OGash, my own money, the third type of investors,professional investor, who infest large chunks of money of other people's mind,an jrunks that are large enough to find your operations, then Usan. Now as a VC, those are the three times of equityginvestors. Now, there's credit card dead and en al kind of Bou Things B,there's be... Anyone participatin in the company, contrivutions o being paid, isconsidered a particicate insicing five mile t you keep tracking their bets when you can pay them the bang stop. So,if Ou, if I paid you you R fold market salary, you wand deserve any equitycompany right. He just getting paid, in fact, that's how most people wor theyjust get paid and that's that. But if you're not getting paid, you deserveshuckbact intits base on your best. An Angel investor should always get aconvertible note. convertal note is one that is basically Alon that a certainpoint I the future, turns into equity that, at the terms of the first majoraround the funding, that's important is because, if you set a price Fr ecuallytoo early, you create all kinds of problems and Lotyo will give their momfive percent for five housand dollar, for instance, Wy Giv thou an earlyVester whun. I sell five percent for five ousand dollar. I just implied thatmy companies Wer huned thosanddollars. That makes sense so now, when I give up, go a futureequity grants. If you CULCA be taxe at s income, because Thas a price now plusI basically createed Buddet or not even foulhon dollars, Ot whun I run through,is gone so it creates all kinds of problems. Sothe first VC round the first day, sers, a Roun, should be your first pricedround. So you use slicing Pi for founders and early employeers that aretaking risk and that's the pokers BLACKAC example. So Yeahti Coulis basemy share the real othe eathe bets. I give Angel of BESERS comparial Knownd,so it could burn later on and when they convert all the pieholders WITL deluappropriately on equal footing s it wasn't the got in the same boat,because my daughers always worked the team were things ere dealt no on thefounder or the ever employe. All I gotto do his keep track of what Icontribute now, a lot of stortups don't do that they don't keep trackof theirexpenses because they don't have any expesces CA. Tes do working for free,but most companies track payroll, antryc expenses, attractive Rom. So I,as a manter of how you run a company striking this is not very hard. So Ell,you C you're not paid that you log bit so what's going on, is you don't knowyou're spin in front? You don't know, you only know in bettin stops at thepayer thats it seriousla o break even so. thes pe changes over time whichpakes a lot of people uncomfortable, but you think about it all. I couldiswuts change because, if you go on, fifty fifty were Goin to adjusted itsooner or later mm. Okay, fi tis guarantee. I you Alyshaveer you deserve so so, if I'm a health innovator- and I want to hire a consultant to help mewith commercializing, my innovation migt go to market strategy, maybeproduct development, any of those things that this consultant is going tohelp me with and of course I imagine that it dependson the status of the funding of the company. But what do you do whenthere's a scenario where there's some financial compensation and then there'sthe balance or there's a difference, an equity? But you don't really have goto yetbecause you're not giving equity where yeah you just trucking the Pie and it'sbasically unpaid portion, so it controls a hundred dollars an hour andyou pay him fifty ollars an hour, they're betting, fifty dollars an hour.Okay, always ask Youop the same question. If I was GOINTA pay thisperson a full fair market wage or O conversation, what would I pay make agood financial decision? And then you just pay it. If you have a cash, if notuse slicence whatever, I can't Ba it o either all arn part of it use licensesso slices a er like a pokership. It's a crefictional intert contribution, timnsicense of the pine. So this allows me to highe consultants or employees or landlords and rent space create sor.This alternive currency WHOC says iow. You cantrigu something you you'rebetting, something I'm Gon Kee Track by Allecheny sises in my pie and when thePi Stop Kat community slices, will the ter recrus Er based on that?...

So if you've worked with entrepreneurs,what are you know when you're explaining this do? Do People get it? If not it s like what are some of thethe challenges that you're still facing with you know gaining adoption of thismodel amongst entrepreneurs? Well, there's three reasons: wher someonewould not use slicing Fi, the first reasonis hi, don't get it and it's myjob to do stuff like this and teach people howt to do is on gallikinds ofResourcesi've written three books on this topic. I bord games designed andspreadsheets and software and all kinds of ways to get in once o Er Games. Thatsounds like fine useit from my classes, you, actually you play cards and thdifferent things that you contributed to show ing God, so I'm Otis an onlinegame. My job in life is a teacher Ano. Thisworks and once Inclak Wat, you gon what you realize. There's only one versionof fairness that exists. An youll see thesizeby is the best two over incovering that version of fairness, Tilli. The other reason tha wouldn'twant to use this is, is because they're not willing to learn it and there's lot.People like that iy ju, so want to Learne. They Newe, I'm Gan a AngelBester and give my five percent. That's all I want to do or I want to ower. Iwant to know I'm getting, which is impossible because things change allthe time Yep, but if so, was that willing to learn it? My best advice Ito walk away from that person. Andthe third tace, which is a little moreinteresting, is someone who does get it, but is theyre intent to take advantageof you. An example of this is a is a consultant maybe or Sain like andesigner, maybe worth thiyan dollar a year and the lasst fore a hundredhousand dolar year in slicense, and you made out find anybody else. Coe else well willing to work for FRAVOR. They want. They want to take sizes at ahigher rate. Yeah there's! Really? U Take Advantage of you, and sometimesyou got to you gotto do this. You know if you're desperate and you need cash.You neede to help your you reall Onye things once you do get to cash, you CNreplace that in Ployes with lower costom poy. But you know the big barriers are this.This notion that equity changes over Time Oo. This strong desire to knowwhat they're going to get and Hey thinking they they do wats called a fix.Tat Could Jav spent it. I ifty spit or twenty five twent twenty andthethinkththey do that they'll somehow know what they get, but they can know whatthe gocase things ar going to change. You can't prick the future any number.You pick an Advaance Tho matter what it is to matter. How careful you are it'sgoing to be the wrong number, because it's not properly reflect R your risk.You know people know that inharline they Aa Gosh, you, we greed to fi fiftythat doesn't matter just because we agree to it as made it right. WHASDRIED! Is that my share the best? So so, if you had fift fifty in you, don'twant to change that, even though I'm taking more risk and you K- meansyou're willing to take benefit from my risk. That's not really fair! Hey! It's Dr Roxy! Here with a quickbreak from the conversation. Do you want your innovation to succeed tochange lives to shake the future of health care? I want that for everyhealth innovator, which is why I invented coyt and evidence basedframework to take your innovation from an idea to start up to full marketadoptions. If you're, not sure where you are in the commercializationprocess, take the free assessment now at Dr Roxycom back four, don't miss outon impacting more lives just because you have a low coit score. The freeassessment is that Dr Roxycom Cxl, four that's Dr Rox IECOM backslash sc oreand now, let's jump back into the conversation, so tell us a little bit more aboutthese resources and webpools that you have that you know our audience may beinterested wet important. Then Yo remember slizing,byis free! It's pretty use! I own...

SOINLUC AL proberly, the there's nolicense to use SI by in your company. There's no barrier Sheusi this free, greesourceesfree videos on way in t internet ye down on a free version of my sampl, mybook, this Preexcel spreadshe you can download and worksheets, and you canget design lawyers that offer templates and things like that. So there's nocost using sicy Pi. That being said, there's also books. You can buy thatare more comprehensive than there's software on my website, where you cantrack your contributions over time to each person can long it and track theircontrirbation. So I worked six hours day or I ai, for a playing ticket thatwasn't reimbersed for it's kind of the software is much better. The next calethe same way that quickbooks is better for accounting, then Excellis forcouing.So I yourself that was going to be one of my next questions. Was You know howcom you know? Obviously, entrepreneurs are wearing a million different hatsright and so time is their most precious asset. So how are they keepingtrack and making sure that they don't file behind? And you know some of theseslices don't get misappropriated. You know inadvertently over time, justbecause it's you know how are they managing it all? Well, someones workingfull time the traditional Lyn Tay. That person is to give them a w salary, Abitevr every Friday, every month, for instance, so int software yous have apayroll. It's just said on a recurrent contribution of x emmerofvours per week,every Friday, so they're just you're, going to cruck anything. If you want toThack by hour, you can chack by hour. Most people are used to, you know,cracking an expensive port. For instance, Bose people are used totracking payroll snother, not unbelievable things. You know how WOUCDyou paid on WEA basis. So you? U You just tracking things youwould truckanyway in regular company. In fact, this teacher of the model gives yougreat insight, what your company's all about, because, if you're, not trackingthese things, you don't understand your coss structure on the biggest ASEX Isee ansners make is hey, our constructure is really low, so we'regoing to charge little prices can nene get the competition, but becausethey're, not tracking, with their their non jash theyre non no nonexpenditures.Are they don't really know the cost of their company? Once you fully loaditwith salaries, you realize that you can't charge Ao, I teach our students.Student teams say we're not getting paid so can charge Loto prize the onfifty Osan dollars years. So what you loan up, forn, a thousand dolars andsalaries. All of a sudden, you got to sell a hell, a lot more units to makethat my money likeak to Dinas, to GOI keeping truck and gives hom much Morntoto your company and the things you coust Yo, be tracking anyway, okay, so so kind of just weaving into alittle bit more of your experience with teaching entrepreneurship. So I wouldsay, probably about sixty percent of our audience is health, innovators thatare in the trenches and in some stage of growth of their company. Some ofthem have just an idea. Others are actually in the marketplace and they'rereally gaining adoption. Actually, some of them have already exited and nowthey're on the their next big thing, and then the other segment of ouraudience is a lot of like more of the bigger enterprise. What I would callearlier doctor so, like health plans, hospital systems that the innovatorsare selling to and then key influencers, but it's kind of speaking to yourexperience with teaching entrepreneurship. What are some otherlessons or recommendations that you would havefor health? Innovators? That are listening today. Well, when it Coes to investments andequity and things that there's often ellectual property. It goes long withhelp with health, innovation and the whole idea of with tonight with Deoworth is a really important thing to think about. People have ideas for businesss, Otethinkthat theiur ideas are worth billions of dollars and you'll see thisin deteck transduring universities. You know I have an idea for a new medicaldevice, and so I want you to develop hat I'll. Give you five percent onequity I'll, keep ninety five percent do nothing! That's extremely common itiproperlyvalung idea in a STARTI was really important. IV discipline...

...ideas have value if there are somehowfixed in space in form of a copyright, a trademark, a patent or Somebota traincigaret and as we developed others worth something. If it's fixed in spaceand licensable to somebody, then it's worth what the LICENSEISwerth. So if I have not efer medical advice, Iwant to Thart now company and I could have do. I could lice the defiser forfive percent on revenues. Then that's the fair market value, the idea, okay,Tho! What's Nice about that is I lie the idea to he. Startup tainge pay mecash or ous slices in the Pie. They can't payme if they pintit away from myidea, and that means why I didn't work and because I was paying aroydy the DRO.I won't get a royalty because I didn't work at can start Pavit all the time.It's Fin Giue, a big chunk of equity, random number ECORD. You Jok forr idea,and I pive it away from that idea. I got SOM. You gave me a bad idea who jouchock about cutding the company right. We got to think oen terms of whatwhat'sthe license. What's the rel too ded, if I can't find anybody to pay for my idea,it's probably not worth something you know, but I have an idea andthere's no, no, no nonotther to license it. It's worthless things arether withet on't e Buif. I can' ask you te price either worthlist or it's pricelesseithe way, I'm Giti'm stuck yep the other thing, Bour ideas: it's usuallyour job Gat bood ideas. So if I'm going to start a team- and I am tracking Y-my salary they're- not getting painsizy by having good ideas- it is my job, soyou don't use not get royalty for he job ide. On the job I used to work inthe fishing cackobox industry and it was my job to have alesome ideas, and Iinvented new products that people use all over the world, that I don't get aroyalty on that because it's my job become up. I was a marketing Yo, so youjust part of my job. So it's a value of ideas. The secondthing that CA I comminen comes to healthcare is usually once you into acertain point, needs a lot of capital. So Start UF. You know many a lot of Kep e right up front, sosplicing by is good for this. This early days before you raise capital,when you raise capital or Ace breaky ven, you can pay people theircontributions for the controvations and you don't need equity. So if I and I have this, you know, Ihave a team of people that work for me that I paid them. FULLMARRI costidtheir market selar, and they don't get that what that's fine with them. Becausthey're Gennin, PA popole. Once you raise the money you don't needto use, tequitting your comer to an providing sige. That's a big me! SAYPLMAC is they. They are people e game. The macuity, including, is starteraslike equitting ny of the other company. If I get paid a fol for market salary,I can determine what I do with that salary I can put in the bank. I canspend it on Cheedos or I can invest it in he stock market eve investment, soinvesting it in it's. The same decisions ton apply to my start: UFequity. If I'm not willing to buy the equity with my salary or my income,then it's not worthated to me. So give me to me isn't worthwhile so thingspretty geil to think about. The third thing I keep mind is Thi. This idea,Wer Lik big companies want of invest in the rnd through the starter community. I'm gonna big, you know big, I'm Avitlabs and I want to invest in start up to get the electral property from Thei.To find good ideas. Slicing by is a wonderful tool for doing that, becausewhat allows you to do is just you. Have Your Fun and all you do is pay people'sbills on the way you join a company as you pay their VBILLAGE. You get slicesin the Pie and if you like, thet man, things aregoing well, you keep paying their bills and keep earning equi and get in tobreak. Even if you don't like it. E jus stop working with them, but thet aboyge.Is this whole this whole song and dancing of the pitch and negotiatingterms and getting chunks of cast that it is spent through and then everydedecort? So traditional abito models are difficult to manage the earlystages, because thit require this big commitment: Fromn, an angel investor, acommanment from wher dobibusiess plan pitch. If you like, a team, an Getinspicing by at Yos, just starting Investingin medily. So so you know it's interesting, I'mstarting to see a growing number of... innovators who are wanting to kind of avoid thetraditional funding route and Selffund, an in kind of adopt more of the slicingpiomodel and in really just kind of weather through that storm being bootstrapped for years untiltheyre actually start generating revenue and cash flow and just avoid it.What? What is your thoughts on that? Well, a traditional model I got ta G.Have I have a hundred percent bat I can give away if I start chunking you out a ittle bitso that once the hundrer Rsens gone it's gone, and so, if I give you five percent foryour marketing efforts- and I give you my landlord two percent sapee- I justkeep doing it's a finine resource yep. So Ichunkit away andchackand. That makes it very difficult. It was sicing by Igan,Atan, endlers, Nember slice to the Pie, and ever knows they get exactly thedeserve. So I can acquire the research that I need for much longer period oftime before I run out of juice, for instance Funy by the much much morelogical way to divide o equity, because if I don't pay someone for acontitation, I just use license in the whole time I'm making good financialdecisions. I don't go and rent ten thosar dollar months for offespace ier right right. I just keep you know en spending continue to joinanear Eiten,so it gives people long ramp period for for boot, stopping it's much Bu uasertool to use because a matter what changes are Allyo always be fair andalso gives you don't do. The tecize of your PRI gives you an idea f. Whatkinds of controbations were necessary to get to you where you arelist, yourealize you have ten million plics in your pie to get you NBP, that's prettyexpensive to Git to a Neve peces. You got to be Er carebulmoing forward. ogives you good decision. Iny jewels, so were yeah. That's great! So is there anything else that youwould want to share with our listeners? The important thing to keep in mindabout equity, splits in Blese job companies, is that there's only oneversion of fairness. If Our dad give us a cookie you andwere now our sister brother, he sais spittitg up kids, the only fair way Ibet the cooking is fifty right break in half I Breng in. Am You pick whichaff?You want right now I can give you my half the cookie,but my generosity does make it more fair right. You could steal. Myaftecooky be agreed, is makeing, more fair, sorry, Fity! Fifty now, if you bought thecookie, you can do whatever you want. If I bought to Gat you so so Ete's onlyone version of fairness, there's no oe therspet, t cookin, and once you keepthat in mind, Yo realize that when you are with a company, that's a bitdetermines the possibility, so any other menth that any of the Model I useis, by definition, going to be unfair because IIT's in Alternito, the trueone farins there is so keeping that in mind. I hope your relition shill taketime to listen. Ju s like to look a sicy by use a free esample on mywebsite, slizin Bycom, and give it a chance because it definitely works.It's worked all over the world were Yo, just launch, sicing, pis, dot Ir andIran no way. Example. If e Transfrento trest in to persions ar even in verydifferent cultures in he economy economies, it works its sendit's. Onlyone virsions a universal model. Are you seeing that's interesting? Are you seeing kindof adoption of the model more prevalent inthe markets versus others, or some countries versus others or someverticals? I don't know aninstans in North Korea,but tansnover dozen different languages. Ilawyers all in the World Ha, do it yeah. It always works exactly the same matter.What it do, what happens in I it's universal. So if you're based in yougot to say it, you can work. People N in you usangth exact same model, itsalways the same, so it always works. Lawyers estimate tat the ones that Italked to and I talked a lot of lawyers theyas Wen at sixty eighty percent ofall the equity deals. They do wind up... dispute, therquirs legalintervention. I mean the chance of US winding up higring lawyer to fix ourrecords, but it's greater than the chance that not happening right. An tenyears or Soi O launch sizi Pi. It's been used all oover, my thousands ofstartups. I have yeet here if, as single instance that Sicei I couldn'tsoll the problem form. That's incredible. I love the work that you'redoing and I think it's so relevant to our listeners. Thank you so much forsharing your wisdom with us today. So how can folks get a hold of you? I knowyou cank doikt the website, but what? If they want to connect with you, slizing Fih otcoms o the website. Ifthey fill the form of the contact form, my guys was fortard to me or they canemaild me at Mike at slicingbicom awesome. Thank you. So Much Mike, youwelcome bat. You thank you so much for listening. I knowyou're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market, and Ivaue your time and your attention to save kind and get the latest episodeson your mobile device automatically subscribe to the show on your favoritepodcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listeningand I appreciate everyone. WHO's been sharing. The show with friends andcolleagues see you on the next episode of coiq.

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