Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 119 · 2 months ago

From a side hustle to a successful exit w/ Shawn Zimmerman


Most successful entrepreneurs will tell you that they had a plan from the start - it was all figured out and they just followed their path to success! Did they really?

When you’re at the pinnacle it’s often easy to forget the trials and challenges it took to get to that lofty spot - and rightly so because it’s a lot of grueling work. You earned a break.

But that’s just exactly the thing: it’s work. Very few people begin commercialization of a solution with a plan they follow to the letter. Things happen - changes come along - adaptation is necessary.

Then there’s folks like Shawn Zimmerman who showed up to the party without much of a plan at all. He just had a good idea that he knew one organization needed.

It took some hustling on his end to craft a solution that he, at first, thought was niche - only to find out that every hospital organization needed what he was building. And he was off to the races.

Whether you’re having a difficult time trusting your instincts or just second guessing yourself out of a successful commercialization run, you need to give yourself a break and listen to Shawn’s story - then get back to the hard work of reaching your pinnacle!

Here are the show highlights:

  • If you can build it and deploy it: COMMERCIALIZE IT (6:41)
  • How to transition from a side hustle to a viable business (8:01)
  • So, you’re building a business….what happens next? (13:38)
  • Sometimes successful plans aren’t planned at all - they just happen (17:56)
  • Success doesn’t always look like a billion dollar IPO (22:59)
  • Why it’s smart to never undervalue your solution (31:37)

Guest Bio

Shawn Zimmerman is the Vice President of Product Development at AccuReg, a healthcare industry software designer.

Over the last two decades, Shawn has held many positions in the healthcare industry, allowing him to gain unique and real insights into the daily challenges of health institutions.

His hands-on approach has earned him a wide range of skills in the healthcare industry, where he leverages his experience in order to provide innovative software solutions.

If you’d like to talk to Shawn about AccuReg’s work, or simply wish to reach out to him, you can find him on LinkedIn @Shawn Zimmerman

You're listening to health innovators, a podcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adopters who are shaping the future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back to the show health innovators. On today's episode I'm sitting down with Shawn Zimmerman, who is the VP of product development for accurag welcome to the show, Sean. All right, thank you. It is good to have you here. So I've always liked to start off by having our guests share a little bit about their background and what you've been innovating these days. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, Um, my background is Um, computer science. So I have a computer science degree, Um, and I had done an internship in a healthcare system here in Florida. And so, Um, I got my start really in healthcare. Wasn't necessarily something I had planned for Um during studying computer science, but it's an internship and I got experience and and learned that there's a lot of opportunity in healthcare. So Um, ever since then I've been in healthcare in different capacities, either working for a hospital, as a consultant or as an entrepreneur. And so what were you doing? Um in an internship and what we're doing is some of those roles that's kind of led you up to where you are today. Yeah, so um first started off with working with a Um with three hospitals and they had a old e h r system and they were migrating over to cerner Um. So I played a large role in those three hospitals migrating from their legacy system to cerner and a great opportunity to come and right out of school, because part of my responsibility was to map the current processes of the hospital m and then and then work with the staff to show them this is how you're going to operate or here's your new processes when we switch over to the CERNER UM. So I got to learn a lot about patient access, a lot about clinical and um just really and how hospitals operate. So it just exposed me to a lot of the departments of a hospital, which is really a viable experience because you know, inevitably found some opportunities that Um that were gaps between the legacy and new and also just some of the challenges in the hospital. So Um. Yeah, it just really kind of opened my eyes to u two various opportunities. So like Ground Zero of e H R implementation in a health system. Yeah, I said that was fun ride, a big project, but yeah, it was a great learning experience from there. Um, actually worked at at a corporate level for this health care system and was responsible for Um, physician theists. So, Um,...

...the hospital system would purchase a physician practice and Um, uh me, as being part of a team, we would go in and, again very similar, would map out the current process of that particular physician practice and then we would actually install a new e HR system. Um that was dictated by the health care system. Um. So again I learned a cue in one setting and then I moved to more of a corporate role and more of a travel role and then I got to learn the inventory setting as well. Um. So yeah, it's just kind of great just getting those high level overviews, Um, and learning expanse with with both healthcare settings, because they do operate quite different. And then you and then you identified this problem that you decided to solve. Tell us about that. Yeah, absolutely. Um. So the challenge is, Um, with with very C HR systems. Again, there's always uh, there's always gaps that never there's not a single HR system that's perfect. And what I had identified is for all patients that are coming into a hospital, um, there's a process where patient walks into the front door, they check in at the front desk, notifies registration, Um, and then also, whenever registration is finished, the clinician needs to ultimately know so that the patient can either have their imaging, surgery or lab, for an example. And what I found was it was a lot of paper and a lot of phone calls, Um, and because of that there was also no documentation and you really didn't have reporting, because it's hard to report on paper and phone calls. Um. So what I did was I developed a you know, it's pretty primitive at that point, um, but it did the job. But developed the first version of the application. Essentially, when patients come in, UH, they'll be able to check in at the front desk and they, the staff, would be able to actually check the patient into the product and it integrates with the HR systems. So it was basically just a single click and the front desk could check the patient. Well, immediately notified registration that that patient is available, Um, and you could see the waiting room and how many paid. You know what patients are waiting for and also how long the patients are waiting for their service. Well, registration would then Um register the patient and the E H R system and whenever that was finished, it would actually notify the clinician that the patient's writing. So now the Philebotomists, the technologist or the sort of you know, the surgical staff would be able to Um, you know, act and get the patient and perform the clinical procedure. Um. And it also went as far as if the patient had multiple services, would actually let that clinician know, okay,...

...send the patient to the next area. Um. And and the gap is Um. There's situations where a patient would have one service and, as far as I knew, they were finished with their service, so they would go home. But, you know, the clinician didn't realize our patient also has a labscript. SEND THEM TO LAB. So we really bridged a lot of the communication made it very streamlined. Um. Someone can look at it from a dashboard standpoint exactly see, Um, you know, how things are operating. Um, but also from a reporting standpoint, you can trend and you can really identify those areas of improvement, you know, from a staffing standpoint or even from a process standpoint. Okay, how can we streamline this process? So, UM, again, you know, it started off as a fairly straightforward piece, but it was just really viable. Um. So yeah, that's kind of where the beginning started. So is this something that you did on your own or is this something that you did within like, you know, within them as an employee? Yeah, so, Um, I had developed a part of it as as an employee. Um, I did it on the side where I was working for that organization and on the side I was I was developing this product. Um. And then, like I mentioned, I did go and, you know, I built that and when I when I went to corporate and when I was also doing consulting. Um, I was supporting it, but I wasn't really growing yet. Right. It's something I did. It fit the need. I was able to deploy it, um, but I never commercialized it and looking back in hindsight, you know, I wish I did earlier. I wish I realized that, you know what, it's more than just these hospitals. I needed. A lot of hospitals needed, but I cut out. It was kind of a niche and I kind of questioned the value for other organizations. But in hindsight it really could have been used everywhere and I wish I kind of jumped on it earlier, but it just it took a few years for me to kind of go back to it and be like, you know what, I can do this better, I can commercialize it and there's a whole market out there. So I want to pause for just a second because I imagine that there are hundreds, if not thousands of people out there just like you, that have been working in the health care system and identified a problem or problems and, you know, a very solution Orient and roll up their sleeves create, as you know, create a way to solve that problem. Um, you know, for the company that they're working for, for whoever it is that they're serving, and question the value of that being a real viable business idea and whether they should take the risk and do something with it or or not, whether it becomes a post it story or whether it becomes of Oh..., I had that idea, I could have done, you know, a B and C with it. So how did you transition from, Um, you know, this is kind of a side hustle to, you know, maybe out onto something here and in commercializing it and turning it into a viable business. Yeah, I think what when it really came down to it, I'm kind of it has been years ago now, so I'm thinking through it Um, but I think what really helped is Um, the healthcare organization I'm talking about that I started with. They've got maybe, you know, thirty facilities and so, you know, word of mouth was really kind of what kind of spurred things. Were, you know, talking to the other hospitals. They were starting the voice to me, hey, how can we get it right, because they heard about these three hospitals having it and how it's solved their solution Um, and then they, you know, these other hospitals started buy and says, Hey, how can we you know, we'd love to have it. How can we get our hands on it? Because ultimately they were either using UM access databases or spreadsheets try and track it, and that's kind of where I realized that, okay, it's not just hospital, these three hospitals, that have an issue. Everybody has these kind of broken processes throughout the organization. I'm like, we can standardize that, and then I realized even organizations outside of that one also have that same challenge. So, UM, yeah, it's just kind of an an eye opener. Um. I was definitely really just focused on my career and I was definitely that that corporate career career path. Um. I always wanted to be an entrepreneur but, you know, I don't know if I knew the path to be an entrepreneur. Um. So I think it's just later, uh, you know, years later, I kind of realized, Um, the viability of that Um probably I think I've met some people along the way that kind of gave me some of the courage of it is possible. Um. And what I ended up doing was, um, that's when I started doing some consulting, because the consultant gave me a little bit more flexibility in my schedule, and so what I did was, um, I did the consulting for a period of time, but in nights and weekends is where I was actually rewriting the product so that it could be commercialized in the sense where I can plug and play, you know, at various facilities, Um. And so I did that for, I think about it, a year and a half, um, pretty pretty much just working non stop, um out of a hotel room because when the consulting Um I had to travel every week. So fifty weeks a year I was traveling and then I was out of a Marriott Hotel Room and then nights and weekends that's where I was actually just working on the commercialization of it and it wasn't until I was able to get enough revenue where I could support myself and then I stopped the consulting. So there was a kind of a I wanted the boat to a fairly close to the dock...

...before jumping and that consulting just provide that a little bit of flexibility to where, Um, I could kind of do both. I could support myself income wise and still have the capacity to to work on this project. So and again, I think you're speaking to you know, not everybody in our audience, but a huge chunk. When you think of the technologist, do you think of physician innovators, clinical nurse innovators, other clinicians that are, you know, maybe have a technology or maybe just have process innovation but there or experience innovation, but they've got some kind of innovative idea and or kind of teetering between do I have something that's really something, or is it am I just, you know, drinking my own Kool aid here and, you know, kind of navigating that push pull of especially, you know, if you're accustomed to being in corporate America and kind of, you know, transitioning that like big world of entrepreneurship. Yeah, yeah, no, it's definitely a yeah, it's definitely kind of a point in my career that I realized, Um, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot I was learning and on the corporate path. YEA, Um, but I kind of like the freedom of creativity and ownership and I knew I could do something good. You know, I don't know if it was financially viable, I don't know if I fail or succeed, Um, but you know, I knew that I wanted to try Um, because I don't, you know, at certain points you Um, you only have one opportunity and I feel like there was kind of a there was a timing there of where I was in my career, where the market was. Um, that it was. It gave me the opportunity to try right Um. And so yeah, it just it's kind of worked out that way. Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy. I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities. Learn more at legacy, Hyphen DNA DOT COM. Backslash Kit. So what I love about your story is that you go from a side hustle to a successful business. But your story doesn't in there. It's really just getting star parted. So then you transition from okay,...

I do have something that's commercially viable, I'm kind of building a business. Oh my gosh, I am building a business. And then what happens next? Yeah, so, Um, yeah, so you know, hired, you know, began hiring employees, um as I was getting that revenue up and growing within the organization's Um, I was able to do that. Um, you know, really start focusing on marketing and end up bringing a salesperson on on board. Um. You know, again, all learning experience for me because, you know, I wasn't really exposed to marketing or sales. So, you know, really just continued, um, growing it organically, Um, and really bookstrapped it. So, you know, through the entire process. Um. Yeah, so you're building something out of nothing right, where you kind of have one skill set that kind of qualifies you to be an entrepreneur where, and then you're like, okay, now I need to do sales and marketing and financing, customer experience, and you start to grow your team. Yeah, yeah, it's it's like it's definitely a great learning experience for me and it continues to be a learning experience. So it's Um, you know when people say they wear one hat, you know, it's there's a lot to it and you knowywhere from the accounting to you know, your the strategic plan, like you said, the marketing and sales and all the management Um, yeah, it was basically kind of a one hat show for for a while, but again, I was able to start kind of growing that team. Um. But what we ended up doing was we continued growing our products. So, knowing that you know this, this product had a very specific Um market right what we didn't want to do is just um get too comfortable with that particular segment. And so what we did was we continue to expanding our product to make it more of a suite. Um. And a couple of things that we did was we first developed a kiosk, a self checking kiosk, either a flip floor standing kiosk or a tablet kiosk. Then patients can walk in and check in themselves on the Kiosk and Um we continue taking that further. So we wanted to get more and more to the front end and more and more patient interactions. So the next step was appointment reminders. So we set up a whole product geared towards emailing, texting or calling a patient to reminding with our appointment Um. And then we took it even a step further, which is we did the digital intake. This is where we were able to Um send a communication to the patient two weeks before their appointment and from their phone we can gather demographic information about the patient. We can collect driver's license insurance, Um, we can do patient estimation, we can collect payment, they can sign their documents and ultimately,...

...everything that they would have been asked for either during preregistration or when they came on site, we were able to collect it just ahead of time. So Um, we continue kind of building out our product because we knew, Um, you know, we don't want it going to be a one pony show, Um, and and and health, larger health organizations, one one vendor that can do a multitude of you know, of of you know items. Um. So you know, we we were very aggressive and explaining out our product suite and the great thing is it's one platform and one integration, one support, Um, and it's all seamless. So, Um, because we did have we have competitors that kind of have pieces of it, but we were under the UM. We knew that hospitals just wanted a kind of a single solution for all of it and just wanted something term key. How. Um. Yeah, so we're just very aggressive, you know, over that time period and just growing our product suite. And then you sold your company, you were acquired, you did a joint venture. Yeah, so, Um. So one of the things that we had realized as we were continue building out this process is Um. A good example is estimate, patient estimates. Um. That is a very complex thing to try to tackle and to do it correctly and do it accurately is even harder. and Um, you know, with being patient focused, we knew we needed to have that information and other information to power our product. So we had a we had a choice of either partnering with a another company to feed that information into our product or um or be acquired. And you know, certainly, Um, it wasn't on my radar to to be acquired. Um. But you know, as I continued having conversations with Akiraje, it really made sense as we as we continued, and the reason why is because, going back to my first point, the health care systems are looking for one vendor and we really needed tight integration um for not only patient estimation but for eligibility and other items, and we kind of came to the determination that really we needed the merge platforms. It was more than just data sharing to accomplish this, that we really needed to put them together to have that cohesiveness for not only the patients but for the staff, so the staff doesn't have multiple products, Um. And then even from a purchasing standpoint for the health care system, right, having one solution that can not only handle your your hospital workflow, but it can... all your patient facing interactions but also all your your back ends, patient access pieces. So Um, you know, an accurage has a very good, um suite of products themselves and you know, I really just love the vision. I love the vision of of putting that together and uh, you know, I think, Um, you know, the value on both sides were there. So Um, yeah, so it really just we came to that conclusion and, you know, really feel comfortable and Um, you know, I had ambitions to continue growing Zigg but, you know, again, one of those situations is the opportunity came up. Um, it just seemed like a perfect fit and it's just where I could see the vision of that one platform. So yeah, so I ended up being acquired. This was about a year and a half ago, um in November, so has been too long. So I again I really just love your story because and I also love your transparency and candidness about the journey. You know, sometimes we have guests come on the show and they try to act like well, they had a plan and their plan was going to you know, be a B and c over the next five to ten years. And I just executed the plan and it all came to fruition exactly how I anticipated. And we all know that. That's of course, none of us have lived that life, not at all, not at all, and you know, it's it's interesting. Um. So I've actually had some opportunities and Um, having a couple other startups before this one. Um, you know, I had it. I had some crossroads too. Is Um, you know, do I acquire money at this point? I was entirely bootstrapped up to that point. But do I try to get capital money right and Um, you know, and there's always, you know, pros and cons of doing that. Um. Again, you could find some some good partnership and make it a win win for both, or be acquired. So Um, I really didn't want to go down the capital route at that particular point. Um and so, UM, yeah, but yeah, no, I did not have an end plant whatsoever. Um and, but this was right right when covid started as well. So you know covid started, Um, and you know that was hard to to do marketing and sales. You know, at that you know the hospitals were really being conservative. They weren't going to trade shows, Um. And so again, that wasn't my expertise, Um, but I knew accurate was good and knows how to do marketing and sales and I knew that's an area that probably could have used more guidance on. And then covid just really kind of made it even more difficult, Um, with that art. So I think that also, you know, played a role in the timing of it, Um, knowing that, Um, you know, covid put put...

...put a strain on on some, you know, of the sales aspects. Yeah, and I think that there's also power in your story too, of of what what entrepreneurship and success can look like. Um. You know, it doesn't have to be, Um, you know, the next I P O for, you know, a billion dollars. In order to have a success story. It doesn't have to be something, you know, where you have ten million users and ten million customers. We can have ideas that turn into viable businesses if you're solving a real problem. That someone's, someone's plural, a group of people. Enough, groups of people are looking to solve and you know, kind of when I think of your story, I think of it going from a side hustle to a successful exit, and there's so many health innovators out there that haven't had this successful exit. Um You know. Could you have done things maybe differently had you stayed on and and built it more on your own and raise money? Who knows, but you really, you know, you it's brilliant and brave you. You took a side hustle, you turned it into a viable business and then sold that Um um you know, was acquired and continued to press into that same passion and mission and vision that you have. Um, you know, just in a in a different way, in a collaborative way. Yeah, yeah, and I think one thing that that helped, knowing that accurate was the right group to work with, Um, was they wanted me to continue doing what I was doing in terms of being successful. So they weren't really looking at changing the formula what I had started and they really do give me a lot of autonomy within the organization. So, Um, you know that. I think that really also, Um you know, continue to be an entrepreneur at heart, even if, you know, if, even if I don't have a business at the moment. Um. But you know, again, that the that I think, you know, providing or letting me have that freedom allows me to continue my vision. But now I have the resources in capital and I have, Um, you know, access to all their data and and everything else to continue integrating and, you know, ultimately just driving that that value to the Um, you know, to our customers. But Um, you know, I think that also really kind of also played a role is that they wanted to keep the team together, that the team that I started. Um, they were all hard on Um, and so we are still a unit here in Orlando and actually our C I oh is now actually part of our office in Orlando as well. So, Um, you know, we got got a great team. We've been able to write a lot over that...

...time period. Um, but it's just it's been a great the leadership has been great and I've been really, you know, enjoying working with them. Um, and I still feel a little bit like an entrepreneur in a way, just you know, just under a bigger umbrella. Um. So I think that's the keyest success because you have all of these larger, you know organizations like Accura Edge, and then you have larger organizations that want to Um, you know, go the path of mergers and acquisitions to be able to innovate right there. They're gigantic, they can't, they struggle with innovating internally, so they go out and they buy companies that maybe have a similar mission and to try to, you know, bring that innovation in. And most often the story that we hear is everything that made that company so successful and innovative gets kind of eroded by the culture of the large organization. And it sounds like, you know, this team is really smart in allowing you to kind of Um, you know, function as an entrepreneur and really being able to retain all of the fast, flexible, Nimble, Um you know, kind of trying stuff um and having it break and fail and kind of continuing to grow and innovate, almost like an incubator for future innovation, without without smothering you with all of those traditional systems and processes and bureaucracy that tends to just, you know, kill innovation. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, and ultimately there you know, Um, you know, we were all kind of aligned in terms of our mission. And again, I think that's what really made it because, you know, talking with the C I o and we were kind of white boarding, yea, the visions, we just realized we have the same vision. I mean I knew exactly what he was going to say next. Um. So that all the time, Sean, that is rare. Yeah, so I'm like wow, like we're we're it was just it was really great to have that. Um. I think it was kind of just exciting for both sides. Um that, you know, we were just such on the same page with it. So, yes, anyways, it's it's been a great journey, Um, and you know, ultimately, you know, I'm really happy about what we're doing in the in the industry right is we're really interacting with patients, Um, and you know from an early start of their of their appointments. Um, but really, you know, guiding the patients through healthcare. And you know, you hear it again and you know quite often regarding you know, sorry, I think there's noise in the background. Can you hear it? Yep, you can't hear it. Okay, there's noise outside the window here, um, but there are Um, you know, pay are are often confused, you know,...

...moving through a healthcare organization and so Um, you know, with with the technology that we have, we're really just guiding that patient. We're providing, you know, timely information to the patient. We're, you know, providing them what that current step is, but we're also letting them know what that next step is. Of here. This is what you should expect, Um, and because we don't want patients to be lost, you know, in that healthcare system, because not every patient is fully, fully understands how to read a patient estimate and, you know, everything that we're asking for. So Um, you know, I really think that we're making a good impact in healthcare, Um, by streamlining that. So, when you think about the growth of you know, the next phase of growth for the company, kind of being future focused here for a minute, Um, what's next? What's on the horizon, Um, in your commercialization jury? Yeah, so, Um, some of our our focuses, Um, is um getting some into the clinical aspects of it. So right now we do a lot of demographics and financial pieces, Um, but there are pieces of information from a clinical standpoint, like medications and analogies, Um, and things like that that we're looking at incorporating into our product, um and that all that way we can satisfy patient access as well as the clinical aspect of it. Um. So really Um, that's that's really are our one of our big focus is right now is really kind of building in some of those pieces into that process. Um. But we're continuing that really expand Um. We're we're Um. One of the other pieces that we're looking at working with is um self, scheduling. Um again moving, you know, right now we we basically start where, you know, appointment is made, but we're looking even before that. So when the patients really consume humor and not necessarily patient, how can we interact with the patient at that point, Um, and so we do have an estimated tool that even if you're a consumer, you could you could use the estimation tool, but really just looking, you know, continue to move forth and, you know, explaining that Um. And then the other pair is even post visit, you know, Um, being able to communication after they have an appointment, Um and really keep them in the loop. So really it's it's all about in the end, you know, as our consumer. So when you know, post service, how do we again to streamline the entire process, keep the patient informed and engaged to the high entire thing. So, Um. So those are kind of some of the areas that we're looking at continuing to explain. then. That's great. So do you think about the other technologists out here or innovators, Um, that don't see themselves as entrepreneurs? As we kind of wrap up here, what is some of the ad ice that you would give them? Um, you...

...know, kind of in hindsight and the lessons that you've learned along the way. Okay, well, I probably need a full hour to talk about all the lessons. Um. You know, hindsight's hindsight. I think the biggest lesson is, Um, you know, for me, is I probably undervalued the undervalued the value that the solution I put together. Um, you know, I I knew it was kind of a niche, but I thought it was a niche for only that one customer. and Um, you know, I think in hindsight, Um, I wish I kind of worked with with other hospitals earlier on, because I think I would have realized, Oh, you're having a similar challenge. Um, actually already have a solution for it. Um, but I just wasn't on my radar. In hindsight, I'm not sure why. Maybe I think it was just again just more focused on that, that corporate path. Yeah, Um, which was great experience. So I you know, it wasn't a bad path. Um. But but in hindsight, yeah, probably Um should have maybe had a little bit more Um, a little more research and the rest of the market. Um. And I, like I said, my mindset just because it wasn't quite there yet. It was. It was definitely just a local and I didn't have that global kind of mindset. But but yeah, for anybody who's who was looking at starting something Um and they found a particular client, you know that they're growing with Um. You know, definitely don't. You know, definitely don't undervalue it. Um, and even if it's the tiniest of niches, there's value, you know, elsewhere. But you can always grow it as well. So, Um, if I could have told myself that years ago, you know, who knows where where would be? But I think that's one of the probably the if I had to choose one, that would probably be the largest one. Okay, Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate you sharing your story. How To folks get Ahold of you? If they want to follow up with you after the show. Yeah, so the best way is is actually just reaching up to me on Linkedin. Um. You can. You can contact me at Sean. It's s h a w n and then Zimmerman Um and, uh yeah, feel free to invite me. Awesome. Well, thank you for joining me today. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who shared the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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