Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 3 years ago

Product Co-Creation, Adoption Strategies & The Power of Engaging With Patient Leaders w/David Goldsmith


Thousands of apps, devices, and wearables are brought to market with good intentions of solving real problems, but they just don’t get any adoption. Part of the problem is a disconnect between the innovation and the patient’s needs. What are patient leaders, and why is it so important for innovators to engage with them? How can involving a patient in the co-creation process help uncover hidden insights? What are some of the problems that can arise in these engagements?

On this episode chief strategy officer of WegoHealth, David Goldsmith, and I dig into why product co-creation is so critical in order to successfully bring an innovation to market.


3 Things We Learned


How patient leaders benefit your marketing

Working with the patients helps get the word out about your product to other patients. The information will have a far greater impact with other patients coming from them than if that same message is being delivered by the company creating the innovation.  

How to get the most valuable contribution from patient leaders

When it comes to patient leaders, most innovators don’t know where to find the right people to put into the room. They struggle to know who to draw in and what their contribution will be. Start with something along the lines of a patient advisory board. By creating a board that includes the very same people you want to reach, you boost the commercialization potential of your innovation.  


What can go wrong with patient leader engagements

The one thing that many companies get wrong is engaging with patient leaders and then choosing to ignore or dismiss what was put forth. You could get backlash, and this might really affect your reputation in the market.


The landscape of failed products and solutions targeting patients in healthcare is vast and highly documented. For a lot of innovators, the first mistake they make is in what they fail to do, and that’s bringing in the right voices and influencers from the market they are trying to serve. A lot of things get overlooked when you don’t involve the right stakeholders in your commercialization process. By choosing to co-create with the people your innovation is going to serve, you increase your chances of success significantly.


Guest Bio-

David is the Chief Strategy Officer at WEGO Health. WegoHealth is the world’s largest network of patient leaders to help health innovators access patient experiences and expertise in the designs, development, and promotion of products and services. Connect with him on LinkedIn

Welcome to CIQ, at first of its kind video program about health innovators, early adoptors and influencers and their stories about writing the roller coaster of healthcare innovation. I'm your host, Dr Roxy, founder of Legacy DNA marketing group, and it's time to raise our COIQ. Welcome back coiq listeners. On today's show we're digging into product co creation and adoption strategies with David Goldsmith from we go health. David, welcome to the show. Thank you, Roxy's great to be with you. So, before we get into the meat of this discussion, go ahead for our audience and tell them a little bit about your background and what you do. Sure. Well, I'm currently the chief strategy officer for we go health and I've been working in digital health for about ten years now. have been really spent my entire career working in technology, and most of that was focused on building social networks to connect people and special interest areas, but I shifted to a focus on health after my wife was diagnosed with cancer and got an up close view of the healthcare system and was frankly a little stunt to see how dysfunctional it was, and it inspired me to try to be involved and bring my background and interest to bear and health care. So ever since I've been working with a number of companies trying to bring new technologies to market to hopefully improve the patient experience as well as outcomes. MMM, awesome. So what is it like for you writing this crazy roller coaster of healthcare invasion? It depends on which day you ask me. I'll get it, but you know, I will say that it's incredibly exciting and most onmost days and and other days it's daunting right, because if you've ever attend attended the Hymns Conference, which I believe you have, you see in the numerous ex exhibition halls how big and monstrous and powerful these incumbent companies are in healthcare and they control a lot of different dimensions of the healthcare system. So since I've been mostly focused on startup company, working with startup companies that are trying to gain tractions somewhere within this incredibly complex ecosystem. It's just daunting, right. How do you compete with companies? How do you partner with them? How do you cut through the noise and the height and the you know, the challenges never go away. The flip side is when you do start to get traction. It's so gratifying because of the nature, sure of the work and what we're trying to accomplish. It just makes it worth it and I will say that I've never regretted the day I got into healthcare and tech and I can imagine actually not working at this point within the healthcare system, and that's despite working almost every day with very large life sciences and pharmaceutical companies who any measure, can pose some substantial challenges to getting things done. But we're making great headway. Awesome, that's great. So I know that you all talk a lot about this term called patient leader. So for our audience, help us understand what do you mean when you say patient leader? So when we look at the community of patients who are actively engaged online, one of the things that we have noticed over many years now is that there is a segment of those patients who really start to be highly visible because of... not just how active they are online, but how many followers they have, how how what the they're the nature of their participation is. So, for example, many of them have created blogs and are very active bloggers. Some have established the substantial digital footprint on facebook or twitter, and now instagram as well, in even many of set up youtube channels. You start to see people who are deeply engaged in their own health, but they're also very active in trying to help other people with similar conditions or the same conditions navigate various aspects of their health and the decisions they're making daytoday about aspects of their healthcare. And so we just started many, many years ago, trying to do a better job of finding these people, connecting with them and and looking at the role they're playing, and it became very clear to us that there is a growing number of people out there who can who are, of course, patient advocates, their people who are helping others, their sharing a lot of information, they're connecting their peers to vital resources and so forth, and their playing a very valuable advocacy role. And within that there are also people who are clearly influencer, influencer right. These are people who are, primarily through social media, actually measurably influencing how other people are managing their care or making certain decisions about things to look into, whether that's a new treatment option or a new medication or something along those as lines, and we also know that there are people who are clearly thought leaders within this community. Those are the people you often see on the main stage now, sharing their experience and bringing the patient voice into conferences. So when we talk about patient leaders, we're really talking about the the opinion leaders and the health influencers who are not only viewable and findable by virtue of their substantial digital footprint, but also by virtue of what we're seeing from their peers who, on an annual basis, when we run our awards program step up in a big way to both nominate these people and different categories or to vote for them once they're actually nominated, and we get tens of thousands of people in patient communities validating that these are the leaders within the patient community they look to to stay connected, to get support and to learn about new ways of, you know, essentially coping with or managing their health. H absolutely. So why why is it important? You know, majority of our listeners are health innovators, early adopters. So why is it important for health innovators, who may maybe are bringing new products, new innovations to market? Why is it important for them to involve patients or patient leaders in the product co creation process. Well, it's important because ultimately, if you are hoping or expecting patients to adopt whatever solution you're bringing to market, then you are wise to work with them to understand whether what you're introducing to the market is in fact going to meet their needs, MMM and be usable and useful. I mean, I know that goes without saying,...

...but I think the landscape of failed products and solutions targeting patients is, you know, it's kind of vast, right. I mean, we see definitely much on a daily basis where new APPS, new devices, new wearables and so forth are brought to market with with very good intentions of solving real patient problems, but for a host of reasons they just don't get adoption. So we often learn that part of the failure there was a disconnect between what the entrepreneurs and the innovators thought was necessary or what would they thought might be addressing, and what the patients themselves see as critical for them and they there's an opportunity, by virtue of working with patient thought leaders and influencers and advocates early on in the development design process, to really better understand is this something that we can validate through your experience in your own you know user feedback is in fact going to meet your needs. So it's not unlike the kind of design thinking process that we see in many other industries where that kind of involvement early on can really make a difference down the road in terms of adoption. So it's the reason why, increasingly we are working with a pretty diverse range of pharmaceutical companies and even others now to bring patients in early for qualitative insights to better understand, for example, what is that patient journey look like, particularly if you're dealing with a chronic or complex or rare condition and you know you can't find a substitute for when it comes to design thinking. You simply can't find a substitute for the end users of your attended product. So that's vital. And then I will add that one of the other things now that we believe off is really proving to be very promising is working with patient influencers and leaders who do have a lot of followers and social media to help build awareness of your solutions once they're on the market. Now that is a little easier if what you're talking about is a device or a product or something that is kind of direct a consumer solution. When it's through a beat of be channel like a provider or a payer or potentially even a pharmaceutical company, that can be a little bit trickier. And yet we still see opportunities to work with these individuals, to think very strategically and also tactically about what can be done to try to really raise awareness within patient communities that these kinds of solutions exist, how they work, why they would why they are beneficial, and we lot working, you know, with that the patients themselves to help get that word out, because we know that, again from our own research, that if they're sharing that kind of information the likelihood of other patients acting on it is far greater than if that same message is being delivered by a company itself. Hmm, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, kind of staying with the product co creation, there's a framework that we use with clients. We call it the five codes because, you know, it's not just the actual like you might think of, like hey, at the end I created this product. You know, the validation, the covalidation of what do... think about it? But I love what you're saying because it's really about involving the patients much earlier in that product development or commercialization process. So how how do you recommend that health innovators engage patients around ideation, valuation, development, all these different stages of the product co creation process? How does a health innovator find and it? This is going to sound like it is a absolute direct promotion for for your company. I just think that the work that you guys are doing is really important and it's something for health innovators to be aware of and then understand how to take advantage of. So help us, our help the audience understand how do they get patients involved in this process? It's a very good question and I will say that one of the barriers to this that we've encountered over the years by virtue of talking to lots of companies about this this kind of thing, is that they often simply don't know where to find the right people to bring into the room. And that's it's not a slam dunk. I have by any means right and and sometimes it's not knowing who to draw in and what they can really contribute. Sometimes there's trepidation because they're not sure whether what they're going to learn is is is going to provide them with sort of actionable information or insight. There are sometimes questions, depending on the nature of the company or, for example, with providers. Sometimes there's real concerns around confidentiality, confidentiality or privacy and not wanting to have any appearance of stepping into a conversation with a patient but because they know that they have a certain condition, so they kind of want to create a sort of fire wall there, if you will. Yeah, but you know, the the thing that is, you know, I think important to keep in mind is that it's it goes with it kind of goes without saying that the patient population is not a monolith right within any all of us know people, sometimes in our family certainly friends, who are incredibly engaged, very knowledgeable and the kind of people who you want to bring into a room to have a conversation generally, not to mention one that is very well informed when it comes to trying to understand how to create a product or a solution that will be well received by people who have, who are affected by a certain condition. So, but you know, just casting a broad neet isn't always a very efficient way to go about it, and it is one of the reasons why you have companies, you know, like we go health and others, that are trying to do a better job, frankly, of vetting and creating the patient communities that are out there to find those people who can come in on day one and really add value to your conversation. And so, you know, the important thing, I believe, is to really consider starting with something along the lines of a patient advisory board. You know, rocks and me, and one of one of the things that I'm struck by with so many startup companies, and I've been perfectly guilty of this myself and my career, we're very quick to want to put together some kind of add advisory board that has technologists, for example, or, in the case of healthcare, people with, you know, very strong clinical backgrounds. And that's with good reason,...

...right. Those are that those are key stakeholders, these are the people who know the industry well. It may it's perfect sense to have that kind of expertise involved in your enterprise, but it's kind of remarkable if your company is really trying to bring to market a solution that will be adopted by patients, whether that's to reduce cost and utilization, whether it's ultimately to improve outcomes, medication adherence, you know, whatever it may be, it's a little odd that we don't see more companies create an advisory board that consists of the people that they ultimately are trying to reach. So we think that's a really good starting point. It's really good point, you know. And now again that still begs the question last which is, okay, well, who do we bring in for our advisory board? And depending on your on your on your product or your service, in the nature of the condition that you were conditions that you're working in, you know, there are a lot of factors to consider in terms of what's the right representation to bring to the table. We've actually certainly had many companies say to us, okay, we understand, we go healthy, you can bring the advocates and the influencers and the thought leaders, but those people aren't representative of our target population. For example, we you know if you are targeting, you know, segment of the population that's very, very difficult to reach. You know where the barriers to access have been kind of normally high writing healthcare, low income populations, people in transportation, deserts, lots of examples there. You know how you know, don't? We need to have those folks at the table as well, because they are, you know, a representative of our population. So that is important. And you know, what we're finding is that in some cases the people we work with are ideally suited to something like a patient advisory board. In other cases they're all they because they are so connected in patient communities. They're incredibly adapt at helping, helping us in our clients find other people who would be really well suited to an advisory board, in part because perhaps they are more representative population. And I think, you know, one thing that is just always striking to me, even after having been in the business as long as I have, and especially just in social networking and social media, is that, you know, as we're having this conversation today, there are literally tens of thousands of patients online right now on all these different platforms, having conversations about various aspects of healthcare, maybe newly diagnosed and in the early stages of of a crisis that they now need to navigate. People, for example, who are newly diagnosed with cancer are often quick to go online to go to support groups and try to connect with other people who have been in their shoes try to get support there. There are people who are on the opposite end of that spectrum. You know, twenty year cancer survivors, for example, who are still very active and providing pure support online. And you know, I mean just countless kinds of representatives of this patient community. And if you can connect with the leaders within some of these patient communities, they...

...can be a great source to help you find people who perhaps would be very appropriate to bring onto an advisory board and you're happy to help do that. So, knowing that you work in this environment, give us an example of how involving a patient in the cocreation process can help uncover, you know, hidden insights for them, how it can uncover yeah, you know, I'm assuming that with all the different people that you've selected, worked with and placed, you know, is there an example that you can share with our listeners to say this is maybe some assumptions that the health innovator had beforehand and they put together a patient advisory board or involved the patient in the cocreation process and this was some of the Aha moments they had or something that they covered that they really didn't see on their own. Sure let me give you one example that I think is is is a pretty telling one. Actually, was a project that was spearheaded by folks on the human centered design team at partners healthcare in Boston. They were assigned to the task of putting together an advisory board to help some clinicians there create a new figure out, essentially a some kind of new solution to support people with epilepsy, and they came into that conversation with with a bit of a blank slate, right. They really wanted to understand what the needs are. They had their own opinions by virtue of working with people with epilepsy and we're making certain assumptions as they is, as as you would expect based on the clinical care they provide. But they also felt like there were unrecognized needs that perhaps weren't being addressed. So they put together and again by virtue of the of the skill set of the folks who are involved on that team, they came into that with a design thinking sort of framework, right, which meant get the right stakeholders in the room in front of a whiteboard and start to really work through those assumptions and work through key questions about where those needs are. What the hospital could be doing differently, etc. And so they they did the right thing. They not only brought in conditions, they also brought in, believe, a payer. They brought somebody in from a national advocs organization. They brought in a patient leader with epilepsy who is very active in, again, online communities right connecting with lots of people. So she's she was a great sort of barometer for where the needs are in the community. She has her eyes and our ears to the ground just by virtue of participating in these communities. So when she came into those meetings she was not only again able to speak to her own experience as a person with epilepsy, but she was able to talk about what she was seeing online, what challenges people were surfacing, what pain points they were talking about, where they were looking for support, etc. And in that process of identifying where the needs were, unmet needs in particular, the clinicians in the room had identified a whole host of things that they thought that they were seeing, but it really wasn't. There was a main problem that was flagged by the patient advocate herself which hadn't even really been on the radar and it was in fact transportation issues and the problem that people who have had an epilepsy...

...seizure often face, which is that they lose their license and they lose driving privileges for a period of time by virtue of their seizure or they're simply anxious about driving for obvious reasons. So it's not a classic example of a kind of transportation desert issue that we do see in a lot of communities. It was more a very, you know, kind of use case conditions, specific example, where these are people who often isolated and end up not making it to their appointments and and, you know, for whatever reason, don't feel like there's an easy solution for them, sometimes at the spur of the moment. So they essentially were in that process, able to work with a P and leader who flagged something surface, something for them that simply hadn't been recognized, and it kind of steered them away from thinking about this and kind of more high tech, so to speak, ways. I mean they I guess, been very interested in looking at perhaps bring in a new APP to market the people with epileps you could use or something else, and it turns out that that this issue, if it could be addressed, in a in a very direct way, would actually be viewed by the by those patients, as incredibly helpful and solve a very real problem. Yeah, and I think that there's many times where those things are overlooked and lest you're involving the stakeholders, the right stakeholders, in that process. Absolutely. So let's kind of just flip the coin again, because you know, just because on the other side of this, just because you have a patient involved in the process doesn't mean that you're going to automatically reach commercial success. They're definitely some pitfalls just to be mindful of. I kind of refer to them as guard rails to have in place whenever you're involving patients or really any stakeholder group in the product co creation process. Is there anything that you've stumbled upon of just kind of something that could be a pitfall of an include them? Well, it's a good question, I think you know. I'll tell you what the you know, one one pitfall is that there is a risk that if you have engaged one or several patients like, for example, and an advisory board, with the intent of listening to them and using their insights and feedback to guide your road map. MMM. And at the end of that process you, for whatever reason, and it may be for a for good business reasons, you choose to essentially ignore or just or kind of, in a sense, dismiss what was you know, what was put forth in that advice among the folks on that advisory board. There there's some risk of backlash there unless they are clear on on the basis for your decision, I mean, or your if they understand your thinking. I mean there are plenty of examples that we've heard of, mostly mostly anecdotal, where where people feel the patients who are brought into some of these kinds of add boards or or panels where they're asked to share their insights and perspective, they feel like they've shared a lot of information but they don't see it really go anywhere. It doesn't manifest itself in any obvious...

...way in terms of the future course or the future path that organization takes. So while you may start the process out with a in, with a real with good intentions and a spirit of good will, it ends up in some cases looking like you were essentially paying lip service to those individuals and not really intending to take their advice. But ultimately to be able to say, at the end of the day, you listened to them. Right, right, yeah, and again, there may be perfectly logical, defensible reasons for not necessarily moving forward with whatever recommendations were, advice, an add word like that put on the table, but if they haven't been brought along with your process after, let's say you've convened that meeting or several meetings and don't know why you ended up where you did, then you know there can be some backlash there. So, yeah, the other thing that is is a pitfall, and we hear this certainly from companies that are where there's if kind of trepidation about working with patient leaders. Is the the concern is that patient advocates in particular can simply be very difficult to work with because they come in with a real some very strongly held views on on how the system has failed them or where the shortcomings are in various aspects of their of their healthcare experience, and those people can be, you know, strident, that can be agitators. It's becauses. They've been deeply affected by what has transpired to act why they are now advocates. Right. They've, for example, that you know, in the serious cases they've they've had their own issue with, you know, surgical procedure gone wrong and medical device that turned out to have been unsafe. I mean, you know, there's a littany of issues out there and it's entirely possible that in some cases people with those experiences will come in and use these opportunities to vent at great length and quite adamantly, and then people feel like, you know, we hear you, we understand this, but that's not really why we invited you here and it's not to help us solve the problem. And so that twhere again there's trepidation, sometimes some real ambivalence, and it is again erected as a barrier to working with patients because of that fear. And it's a reason why we believe part of our role that we go health is to do vetting in order to, you know, to try to find people who it's not that they won't be passionate and have some strongly held views, but they will be clear, coming into those kinds of meetings or playing those roles, what the expectations are and prepared to be a very constructive, you know participant trying to help Sol problems is opposed to just seeing it as an opportunity to vent some spleen. Yeah, and I think that it's important to acknowledge that and then, you know, that doesn't that doesn't prevent us from engaging those patient leaders. It just helps us form the relationship and manage those expectations communicate that up front, like you know, like I said, guard rails for the engagement, for the relationship. One of the...

...other things that I see that seems to be common to is, you know, listening to one or two people and then creating your solution around those specific things and then realizing that it wasn't something that was viable for the entire market place. It would they they would buy it, but not necessarily something that would lead to, you know, true commercial success. So I think just acknowledging that there can be some challenges and then working in strategies of overcoming them is very valuable. So want to switch gears a little bit and make sure that with the last few minutes that we have that we're also talking about the product adoption and engagement. You touched on this a little bit earlier, but you know, adoption and engagement is so difficult. I mean, you said it earlier. Time and time again we hear of, you know, the the two thousand apps that no one's using right and for whatever reason that would be. You know, just because it's a solution that solves a problem doesn't mean that it's going to reach commercial success. So what does a health innovator need to do to get patients to use their solution? Well, you know, the things that we believe is encouraging from what we're seeing is that if you can identify patients who are using observers or a product and APP, whatever it may be, with real success and it's clear that it is having the intended effect right, that it's someone is now in a better place in terms of their health or their patient experience by virtue of using your solution, that those are the people who really can be incredibly useful, helpful committed ambassadors. You know, it's the notion of patient ambassadors is, you know, in pharmaceutical industry in particular, is kind of well well established. It's and there are provider systems now that are starting to build out patient ambassador programs so that they have patients who've had a very successful outcome in a great patient experience out there in their communities talking about why patients in those communities ought to go seek care in those areas. So we know that there is a greater recognition that the voice of a happy, satisfy patient is incredibly valuable. And so in terms of adoption, what we're seeing now is that in the process that we go through to on unsort of unearthed some of these really important insights and those in that early phase of a design process, we can also learn what what is it that is you think about messaging and communication within patient communities, what is likely to resonate right? And we're now working with more and more patients and what we call our content studio specifically doubt have them Co create the content or in the creative assets that a company is going to use to help connect, to help them connect with their target market on the patient side. So you'll hear that very often. You know, you know and I mean and when you look at that, you know the primary industry we work in, which is the pharmaceutical industry. As we know, especially in most DTC campaigns, the people who are talking about their condition on commercials are actors and models and those voices simply do not resonate. There's research that shows that and in fact, especially with complex chronic conditions that are very challenging to manage, there's...

...a resentment factor that a lot of patients will articulate because they see these actors who who simply aren't at all representative of the patient population, running along the beach. Exactly. You see it and we see it every day and and you know, increasingly, of course, not surprisingly, those those drugs that are being promoted through those channels are often, you know, big molecule specialty kind of drugs dealing with very, you know, challenging health conditions. So so those people will talk about, I mean a lot of those patients will talk quite freely about how they really are turned off by those messages. So we're trying to kind of, what we say, flip the script, yeah, and work with the patients themselves to create the messaging that is likely going to be heard by their fellow patients. And we're not only taking it and but we're not stopping there. Where then, and I think there's a lesson, you know, learned here for for the innovators, not only work with them to shape the content but, where possible, work with them to get that message out through their channels. So you know, this is again kind of an extension of those sort of ambassador influencer model where people who are, you know, hyperconnected through all these different social media platforms can say, look, I had a great experience with this CGM device, I've had a great experience with this CPAP machine, whatever it may be. And here's why. Those are folks who you want to enlist as your allies to get the word out. So that's kind of early adopt that's kind of the early adoption curve where we've spent most of our time working with companies. But I just want to point out that I do believe there's an opportunity to extend that model further down the down the road, or kind of integrate it more into the sort of care continuum, if you will, because you know, great example here in my backyard with a major provider was that they wanted to get a bunch of cardiac patients using an APP when they went home to better manage their symptoms and have some resources in the event that they were thinking they might need to get back into the ED and they didn't talk to cardiac patients when they designed that APP and they didn't have very much success getting it utilized once it was on the market, and so there was a clear opportunity for them to actually work with cardiac patients, to be in touch with other patients when they went home from the hospital, to say hey, you know, I just I survived this as well, I know what you're going through, I understand your pain, your anxiety, etc. And here's an APP I've been using provided by this hospital system. Here's why I think you should use it. If you have questions, we can help you. If you have true you know, you need technical support, we can help you. But having that message delivered by someone who, again, who's been in their shoes, is is quite likely going to have a greater impact act on that individuals willingness to work use that APP than than anybody else in the system. I'm a big believer. I mean I think that it's just a no brainer. Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you ask the people that you are expecting to use your solution... help comarket, you know, Co launch and make them a part of that process and so it you know, it sounds, David, like what you're talking about is that our listeners. Health innovators have the opportunity to include patients from end to end, the beginning. I have an idea. What do you think? All the way too, I launched in each place in that continuum, all the way to I launched it, and now help me continue to promote it and to increase adoption and engagement. That's fantastic, absolutely fantastic. So so, as we wrap up here, what advice? This is our last question. What advice do you have for health innovators who are in the trenches today? Well, my advice is to keep your eye on the prize, at the risk of Cliche, using a Cliche, Yep, and to be tenacious, of course, because without that you likely will not survive, you know, the healthcare market place. I certainly, as you would expect, advise people to find patients to work with and get advice from, and and then, I would say, try to be very open to the to the prospect of having to, you know, pivot, not just based on what you may be learning from your target market, in this case let's say patients, but by virtue of trying to bring a new product or solution to market or get significant market attraction in an ecosystem, as you know, complex and some would say even Ridd as it is that word. But that's another show. That's the whole other episode and you got to be prepared to really roll with the punches and make some significant shifts in your plans based on where you see that friction, because it's pretty hard to break through it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your wisdom with our guests, our audience, I know that they are listeners, are going to get a lot of wisdom, a lot of good strategies and considerations from you today. So how can our audience get ahold of you if they've got any other question about integrating patient leaders into their commercialization process? Well, if they're on twitter, they can find me at Ds goal. That's my twitter handle and I'm certainly active their DM me. It's an easy way to connect, or David Dot Goldsmith at we go healthcom. I'm happy to have a conversation and just try to steer people in the right direction provide whatever advice or guidance I can. Wonderful. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you very much. What's the difference between launching and commercializing a healthcare in avation. Many people will launch a new product, few will commercialize it. To learn the difference between launch and commercialization and to watch past episodes of the show, head to our video show page at Dr Roxycom. Thanks so much for watching and listening to the show. You can subscribe to the latest episodes on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcasts and spotify, or subscribe to the video episodes on our youtube channel. No matter the platform, just search coiq with Dr Roxy. Until next time, LET'S RAISE OUR COIQ.

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