Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 2 years ago

Product Co-Creation, Adoption Strategies & The Power of Engaging With Patient Leaders w/David Goldsmith

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Thousands of apps, devices, and wearables are brought to market with good intentions of solving real problems, but they just don’t get any adoption. Part of the problem is a disconnect between the innovation and the patient’s needs. What are patient leaders, and why is it so important for innovators to engage with them? How can involving a patient in the co-creation process help uncover hidden insights? What are some of the problems that can arise in these engagements?

On this episode chief strategy officer of WegoHealth, David Goldsmith, and I dig into why product co-creation is so critical in order to successfully bring an innovation to market.

 

3 Things We Learned

 

How patient leaders benefit your marketing

Working with the patients helps get the word out about your product to other patients. The information will have a far greater impact with other patients coming from them than if that same message is being delivered by the company creating the innovation.  


How to get the most valuable contribution from patient leaders

When it comes to patient leaders, most innovators don’t know where to find the right people to put into the room. They struggle to know who to draw in and what their contribution will be. Start with something along the lines of a patient advisory board. By creating a board that includes the very same people you want to reach, you boost the commercialization potential of your innovation.  

 

What can go wrong with patient leader engagements

The one thing that many companies get wrong is engaging with patient leaders and then choosing to ignore or dismiss what was put forth. You could get backlash, and this might really affect your reputation in the market.

 

The landscape of failed products and solutions targeting patients in healthcare is vast and highly documented. For a lot of innovators, the first mistake they make is in what they fail to do, and that’s bringing in the right voices and influencers from the market they are trying to serve. A lot of things get overlooked when you don’t involve the right stakeholders in your commercialization process. By choosing to co-create with the people your innovation is going to serve, you increase your chances of success significantly.

 

Guest Bio-


David is the Chief Strategy Officer at WEGO Health. WegoHealth is the world’s largest network of patient leaders to help health innovators access patient experiences and expertise in the designs, development, and promotion of products and services. Connect with him on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/dsgoldsmith/.

Welcome to Coiq and first of its kindvideo program about health, innovators earlier doctors and influencers, andthey are stories about writing the roller coaster of health care andovation. I'm your host Dor roxy, founder of legacy, DNA marketing groupand it's time to raise our COIQ welcome back Coiq listeners on today'sshow we're digging into product co creation and adoption strategies withDavid Goldsmith from Wego Health David. Welcome to the show. Thank you, RoxisGrete, to be with you so before we get into the meat of thisdiscussion, go ahead for our audience and tell them a little bit about yourbackground and what you do sure. Well, I'm currently the chiefstrategy officer for Wego Health and I've been working in digital health.For about ten years now, iave been really spent my entire careerworking in technology, and most of that was focused on building social networksto connect people and special interest areas. But I shifted to focus on health.After my wife was diagnosed with cancer and got an upclosed view of the healthcare system and was frankly a little stunned to see how dysfunctional it wasand itinspired me to try to be involved and bring my background and interest tobear and health care. So ever since I've been working with the number ofcompanies trying to bring new technologies to market, to, hopefullyimprove the patient experience as well as outcomes m awesome. So so what is itlike for you writing this crazy roller coaster of health carenivation. It depends on which day you ask me alltat, but you know I will say that it'sincredibly exciting in most onmost days and and other days, it's dantent right,because, if you've ever att attended the Hymns Conference, which I believeyou have you see in the numerous exi exhibition halls, how big and monstrousand powerful these incumbent companies are in health care and they control alot of different dimensions of the EALMTER system. So since I've beenmostly focused on startup COM, working with startup companies that are tryingto gain tractions somewhere within this incredibly complex ecosystem, it's justdanting right. How do you compete with companies? How do you partner with them?How do you cut through the noise and the hype and the you know thechallenges never go away. The flipside is when you do start to get traction,it's so gratifying because of the nature of the work and what we'retrying to accomplish it just makes it worth it, and I will say that I've never regretted the day. I gotinto healthcare and tech, and I can't imagine actually not working at thispoint within he healthcare system and that's, despite working almost everyday with very large life sciences and pharmaceutical companies who anymeasure can pose some substantial challenges to get in things done, butwe're making great hodway awesome. That's great. So I know that you all talk a lot aboutthis term called patient leader. So for our audience help us understand what doyou mean when you say patient leader? So when we look at the community ofpatient who are actively engaged online, one of the things that we have noticedover many years now is that there is a segment of those patients who reallystart to be...

...highly visible because of how not justhow active they are online, but how many followers they have, how how whattheir the nature of their participation is. So, for example, many of them havecreated blogs and are very active bloggers. Some have established thesubstantial digital footprint on facebook or twitter and now instagramas well on even many of set up youtube channels. You start to see people who are deeplyengaged in their own health, but they're also very active in trying tohelp other people with similar conditions or the same conditions,navigate various aspects of their health and the decisions they're makingdo today about aspects of their health care, and so we just started many manyyears ago trying to do a better job of findingthese people connecting with them and and looking at the row they're playing,and it became very clear to us that there is a growing number of people outthere who can who are, of course, patient advocates there. People who arehelping others, theyre, sharing a lot of information, they're connectingtheir peers to vital resources and so forth and they're playing a veryvaluable advocacy role and within that there are also people who are clearlyinfluencor, influencer Igt. These are people who are primarily through socialmedia, actually measurably, influencing how other people are managing their care or making certaindecisions about things to look into, whether that's a new treatment optionor a new medication, or something along those lives. And we also know thatthere are people who are clearly thought leaders within this community.Those are the people you often see on the main stage, now sharing theirexperience and bring in the patient voice into conferences. So when we talkabout patient leaders, we're really talking about the the opinion leadersand the health influencers who are not only viewable and findable by virtue oftheir substantial digital footprint, but also by virtue of what we're seeing from their peers toon an annual basis when we run our awards program, step up in a big way to both nominatethese paer people and different categories or to vote for them once they're actuallynominated, and we get tens of thousands of people in patient communitiesvalidating that these are the leaders within the patient community. They lookto to stay connected to get support an Dto learn about new ways of you know, essentially, coping with or managingtheir health mm. Absolutely so why? Why is it important? You know majority ofour listeners or health inovators early adoptors. So why is it important forhealth innovators who maybe are bringing new products new innovationsto market? Why is it important for them to involve patients or patient leadersin the product of creation process? Well, it's important because,ultimately, if you are hoping or expecting patience to adoptwhatever solution you're bringing to market, then you are wise to work withthem to understand whether what you're introducing to the market is in factgoing to meet their needs and be usable and useful. I mean I knowthat goes without saying, but I think...

...the landscape of failed products andsolutions targeting patience is you know it's kind of vast right. I mean wesee definitely much on a daily basis where new, APPs, new devices, new wearablesand so forth are brought to market with with very good intentions of solvingreal patient problems, but for a host of reasons they just don't get adoption.So we often learn that part of the failure. There was a disconnect betweenwhat the entrepreneurs and the innovators thought was necessary orwhat what they thought might tbe addressing o homoms and what thepatients themselves see as critical for them, and they there's an opportunityby virtue of working with patient thought, leaders and influencers andadvocates early on in the development design process. To really betterunderstand is this something that we can validate through your experiencein your own. You know, use user feedback is in fact going to meet yourneeds. So it's not unlike the kind of design thinking process that we see in many other industries where thatkind of involvement early on can really make a difference down the road interms of madomtion. So it's the reason why, increasingly, we are working witha pretty diverse range of pharmaceutical companies and evenothers now to bring patience in early for qualitative insights to betterunderstand, for example, what is that patient journey look like, particularlyif you're dealing with a chronic or complex or rare condition- and you know you can't find a substitutefor when it comes to design thinking. You simply can't find a subject t forthe end users of your attended product, so that's vital, and then I will add thatone of the other things now that we believe is really proving to be verypromising, is working with patient influencerism leaders, who do have a lot of followers and social media tohelp build awareness of your solutions once they're on the market. Now that isa little easier. If what you're talking about is a device or a product orsomething that is kind of direct, a consumer solutionwhen it's through a beat af be channel like a provider wor a payer orpotentially even a pharmaceutical company. That can be a little bittrickier than yet. We still see opportunities to work with theseindividuals to think very strategically, and also tactically about Wao, be do to tryto really raise awareness with inpatient communities that these kindsof solutions exist, how they work, why they would why they are beneficial andrelot working. You know with that. The patients themselves to help get thatword out, because we know that again from our ownresearch that if they're sharing that kind of information, the likelihood of other patients actingon it is far greater than if that same message is being delivered by a companyitself mm yeah. Absolutely so you know kind of staying with the product. CoCreation there's a framework that we use with clients. We call it the fiveCoes, because you know it's not just the actual, like you might think of like hey at theend. I created this product. You know...

...the validation, the covalidation ofwhat do you think about it, but I love what you're saying, because it's reallyabout involving the patients much earlier in that product development orcommercialization process. So how? How do you recommend that health innovatorsengage patients around idiation valuation development, all thesedifferent stages of the product, Co creation process? How does a healthinnovator, fine and it tis going to sound like itis a absolute direct promotion for your company? I just think that the workthat you guys are doing is really important and it's something for healthinnovators to be aware of, and then understand how to take advantage of sohelp us our help. The audience understand how do they get patientsinvolved in this process? No, it's a very good question and Iwill say that one of the barriers to this that we've encountered over theyears by virtue of talking to lots of companies about this. This kind ofthing is they often simply don't know where to find the right people to bringinto the room that it's not a slam dunk. I have by any means right, andsometimes it's not knowing who to draw in and what they can reallycontribute. Sometimes there is trepidation, because they're not surewhether what they're going to learn is is is going to provide them with sortof actionable information of insight. There are sometimes questions dependingon the nature of the company or, for example, with providers, sometimesthere's real concerns around confidentias confidentiality or privacy,and not wanting to have any appearance of stepping into conversation with ha patient, butbecause F, they know that they have a certain condition, so they kind of wantto create a sort of firewall there if you will yeah. But if you, you know te things that is, you know, I think important to keep inmind. Is that it's it goes Wi. It kind of goes without saying that the patientpopulation is not a monolet right within any. All of us know peoplesometimes in our family, certainly friends, who are incredibly engagedvery knowledgeable and the kind of people who you want to bring into aroom to have a conversation generally, not to mention one that is very wellinformed when it comes to trying to understand how to create a product or a solution thatwill be well received by people who have who are affected by a certaincondition. So, but you know just casting a broad net, isn't always avery efficient way to go about it, and it is one of the reasons why you havecompanies. You know like we go health and nothers that are trying to do abetter job, frankly of vetting and curerating, the patient communitiesthat are out there to find those people who can come in on day one and really addvalue to your conversation, and so you know, the important thing I believeis to really consider, starting with something along the lines of a patientadvisory board. You know rockinme one of one of the things that I'm struck bywith so many startup companies and I've been perfectly guilty of this myself inmy career, we're very quick to he want to puttogether some kind of aadvisory board that has technologist, for example, ore in the case of health care people with you, no very strong clinicalbackgrounds and that's with good reason...

...right. Those are those are key stayholders. These are the people who know the industry. Well, it makes perfectsense to have that kind of expertise involved in your enterprise, but it'skind of remarkable if your company is really trying to bring to market asolution that woildl be adopted by patience, whether that's to reduce costand utilization, whether it's timiily to improve outcoms medication,adherence you know whatever it may be, it's a little odd that we don't seemore companies create advisory board that consists of the people that theyultimately are trying to reach. So wewe think that's a really goodstarting point. It's a really good point. You know, and now again thatstill begs the question rash, which is okay. Well, who do we bring in for ouradvisory board? And you know, depending on your on your on your product or your service,in the nature of the condition that your were conditions that you'reworking in you know. There are a lot of factors toconsider in terms of what's the right represenation to bring to the table.We've actually certainly had many companies say to us. Okay, weunderstand we go healthy, you can bring the advocates and the influencers andthe thought leaders, but those people aren't representative of our targetpopulation. For example. We you know if you aretargeting, you know segment of the population,that's very, very difficult to reach. You know where the barriers to accesshave been kind of normally high. Writing Healthcare, low incomepopulations, people in transportation desert lots of examples there. You knowhow you know. Don't we need to have those folks at the table as well,because they are you know, representative or population. So that is important and you know whatwe're finding is that in some cases the people we work withare ideally suited to something like a patient advisory board in other cases,they're Alle, because they are so connected in patient communities.They're incredibly, adapt at helping helping us and our clients find otherpeople who would be really well sute do an advisory board in part, becauseperhaps they are more representative population, and I think you know one thing that is just always striking to me evenafter having been in the business as long as I have, and especially just insocial network. ING and Social Media, is that you know as we're having thisconversation today, there are literally tens of thousandsof patients online right now on all these different platforms, having conversations aboutvarious aspects of healthcare, some maybe newly diagnosed and in the earlystages of of a crisis that they now need tonavigate. People, for example, were nealydiagnosed with cancer, or often quick to go online to go to support groups and try to connect with other peoplewho have been in their sthoes a try to get support there. There are people whoare on the opposite end of that spectrum. You know twenty year cancersurvivors, for example, who are still very active in providing pure supportonline, and you know I mean just countless kinds of representatives of this pasientcommunity and if you can...

...connect with the leaders within some ofthese patient communities, they can be a great source to help you find peoplewho perhaps would be very appropriate to bring into an advisory board and fore happy to help. Do that. So,knowing that you work in this environment, give us an example of howinvolving a patient in the CO creation process can help uncover. You know,hidden insights for them, how we can uncover yeah. You know, I'm assumingthat with all the different people that you've selected worked withand placed you know, is there an example that you can share with ourlisteners to say this is maybe some assumptions that the healthinnovator had beforehand and they put together a patient advisory board orinvolve the patient in the cocreation process, and this was some of the Ahamoments they had or something that they encovered, that they really didn't seeon their own sure. Let me give you one example that I think is is is a prettytelling one actually was a project that was spearheaded byfolks on the Human Center design team at partners, health care in Boston.They were a signed to the task of putting together an advisory board tohelp some conitions. There create a new figure out, essentially some kind ofnew solution to support people with epilepsy, and they came into thatconversation with with a bit of a blank slate right. They really wanted tounderstand what the needs are. They had their own opinions by virtue of workingwith people with epilepsy and we're making certain assumptions as they as you would expect, based on theclinical care they provide, but they also felt like they wereunrecognized needs that perhaps weren't beingaddressed so they put together and again by virtue of the of the skill setof the folks who ware involved on that team. They came into that with a design,thinking, sort of framework right, which meantget the right stakeholders in the room in front of a white board and start toreally work through those assumptions and work through hee questions aboutwhere those needs are what the hospital could be doing differently etce, and sothey s thiy did the right thing: They not only brought in clenitions. Theyalso brought in believe a payer. They brought somebody in from a nationalavorace organization. They brought in a patient leader with epilepsy, who isvery active in again online communities right connecting with lots of people soshe's. She was a great sort of barometer for where the needsare in the community. She has their eyes and R ears to the ground just byvirtue of participating in these communities. So when she came into those mediuns, shewas not only again able to speak to her own experience as a person withepilepsy, but she was able to talk about what she was seeing online. Whatchallenges people were surfacing, what painpoints they ewere talking about,where they were looking for support etce and in that process of identifying wherethe needs were unmet needs. In particular, the clinicions in the room hadidentified a whole host of things that they thought that they were seen, but it reallywasn't. There was a main problem that wasflagged by the patient advocate herself, whichhadn't even really been on the radar, and it was in fact transportationissues and the...

...problem that people who have had anepilepsy seizure often face which is that they lose their license and theylose driving privileges for a period of time by virtue of their seizure war, they're,simply anxious about driving for obvious reasons. So it's not a classicexample of of a kind of transportation desert issue that we do see in a lot ofcommunities. It was more a very you know, kind of usecase conditionspecific example where these are people who often are isolatedand end up, not making it to their appointments and- and you know, forwhatever reason, don't feel like thereis an easy solution for them.Sometimes, at the spur of the moment, so they essentially were in that process able to work with a pasient leader whoflagged something surface, something for them that simply hadn't beenrecognized and it kind of steered them away fromthinking about this ane kind of more high tach. So to speak. Wers I mean they. I guessbee very interested in looking at perhaps bringin a new APP to market the people with epilepso could use or something else,and it turns out that that this issue, if it could be addressed in a in a verydirect way, would actually be viewed by the by those patients as incrediblyhelpful and solve a very real problem. Yeah, and I think that there's manytimes where those things are overlooked, unlessyou're involving the stakeholders, the right stateholders in that process, absolutely so, let's kind of just flip the coin again,because you know just because, on the other side of this just because youhave a patient involved in the process, does it mean that you're going toautomatically reach commercial success? They're? Definitely some pitfalls justto be mindful of I kind of refer to them as guard rails,to have in place whenever you're, involving patients or really anystakeholder group in the product co creation process. Is there anything that you've stumbledupon of just kind of something that could bea pitfall of in including them? Well, it's a good question. I think you know I'll tell you that you knowone one pit fall is that there is a risk that if you haveengaged one or several patients like, forexample, in an advisory board with the intent of listening to themand using their insights and feedback to guide your road map mm and at theend of that process, you for whatever reason and it may be- for for good business reasons you choose toessentially ignore or duser kind of in a sensedismiss. What was you know what was put forth in that advice among the folks onthat advisory board? There's some risk of backlash thereunless they're clear on the basis for your decision I mean or your if theyunderstand you're thinking I mean there are plenty of examples that we've heardof mostly mostly anecdotal where, where people feel the patients who arebrought into some of these kinds of adboards or panels, where they're askedto share their insights and perspective, they feel like they've shored a lot ofinformation, but they don't see it really go anywhere. It doesn't manifestitself in any obvious way in terms of...

...the future course or the future paththat organization takes. So while you may start the process outwith with a real with good intentions and aspirit of good will, it ends up in some cases. Looking like you were essentially paying lip service to those individuals and not reallyintending to take their advice, but ultimately to be able to say at the endof the day you listened to them right, right and and again again, there may be perfectly logical, defensible reasons for not necessarilymoving forward with whatever recommendations. Werwere advice an adboard like that puton the table, but if they haven't been brought along with your process after, let's say,you've convened that meeting or several meetings and don't know why you endedup where you did, then you know there can be somebacklash there, so yeah. The other thing that is is a pitfall, and we hearthis certainly from companies that are where there's I kind of trepidation,about working with patient leaders is the. The concern is that patient advocates in particular cansimply be very difficult to work with, because they come in with a real, very strongly held views on on how thesystem has failed them or where the shortcomings are in various aspects of their of theirhealthcare experience and those people can be. You know, striden that the agitators sobecause they've been deeply affected by what has transpired Sall a me why theyare now advocates right, for example, make you know in theserious cases, they've they've haded their own issue with you know, surgical procedure gone wrong,a d medical device that turned out to have been unsafe. I mean you know,there's a littny of issues out there and it's entirely possible that in somecases, people with those experiences will come in and use theseopportunities to vent at great length and quite adamantly, and then peoplefeel like you know. We hear you. We understand this, but that's not reallywhy we invited you here and it's not tighto help us solve the problem h andso that's where again, there's trepidation, sometimes some realambivalence and it is again erected as a barrier to working with patience.Because of that fear, and it's a reason why we believe part of our role that wego health is to do vedding. In order to I, you know to try to find people whoit's not, that they won't be passionate and have some strong held views, butthey will be clear coming into those kinds of of meetings or playing thoseroles. What the expectations are and prepared to be a very constructive. Youknow participant trying to help so problems, as opposed to just saying itas an opportunity to vent SOM, splen yeah, and I think that it's importantto acknowledge that and then you know that doesn't that doesn't prevent us from engagingthose patient leaders. It just helps us form the relationship and manage thoseexpectations communicate. That upfront, like you know, like I said, guard railsfor the engagement for the relationship.

One of the other things that I ee, thatseems to be common to is you know, listening to one or twopeople and then creating your solution around those specific things and thenrealizing that it wasn't something that was viable for the entire marketplace.It would they would buy it, but not necessarily something that would leadto. You know true commercial success, so I think just acknowledging thatthere can be some challenges and then working in strategies of overcomingthem is very valuable, so want to switch gears a little bit and make surethat, with the last few minutes that we have that we're also talking about theproduct, adoption and engagement- and you touched on this a little bitearlier, but you know adoption and engagement is so difficult.I mean you, send it an earlier time and time again we hear of you know the thetwo thousand APPs that no one's using right and for whatever reason that would be,you know just because it's a solution that solves a problem doesnit mean thatit's going to reach commercial' success. So what does the health innovator need todo to get patients to use their solution? Well, you know the thing that we believe isencouraging from what we're seeing is that if you can identify patients who are using aservice or of aproduct and APP whatever it may be, with real success, and it's clear thatit is having the intended effect right thatan someone is now in a better place in terms of theirhealth or their patient experience. By virtue of using your solution thatthose are the people who really can be incredibly useful, helpful, committedambassadors, you know it's, the notion of patient ambassadors. Is You know inpharmaceutical industry in particular? Is kind of well well established it's, and there are provider systems now thatare starting to build out patientambassador program so that they have patients who've had a very successfuloutcome and a great epatient experience out there in their communities talkingabout why patients in those communities oughtto go seek care in those areas. So we know that there is a greaterrecognition that the voice of a happy satisfied patient is incredibly valuable and so in terms of adoption. What we'reseeing now is that in the process that we go through to onon sort of Onearthd some of these really important insights in those inthat early phase of a design process, we can also learn what what is it. Thatis, you think, about messaginging and communication within pisientcommunities. What is likely to resonate right and we're now working with more and morepatience in what we call our content studio specifically, don't have themcocreate the content in the creative assets that a company is going to useto help connect to help them connect with their target market on the patientside. So youl hear that very often, no, you don't, and it I mean, and when youlook at that, you know the primary industry we work in, which is thepharmaceutical industry, as we know, especially in most DTC campaigns, thepeople who are talking about their condition on commercials or actors andmodels and those voices simply do not resonate. There's research that showsthat and in fact, especially with complex chronic conditions that arevery challenging to manage. There's a...

...resentment factor t a a lot ofefpatients woararticulate because they see these actors who who simply aren't at all representativeof the Pisien population, running along the beach. Exactly we see it and we seeit every day and- and you know increasingly, of course, notsurprisingly those those drugs that are being promoted through those channelsare often you know, big Molecul, specialdy kindeddrugs dealing with very you know, challenging health conditions. So so those people will talk about. I meana lot of those spations will talk quite freely about how they really are turnedoff by those messages, so we're trying to kind of Wewe say flip the scriptyeap and work with the patients themselves tocreate the messaging that is likely going to be heard by their fellowpatients and we're not only taking it abut we're not stopping there. We'rethen, and I think, e there's a lesson you know to learn to hear for, for theinnovators not only work with them to shape the content, but were possiblework with them to get that message out through theirchannels. So you know this is again kind of anextension of the sort of ambassador influencer model where people who areyou know, hyperconnected through all these different social media platformscan say. Look I had a great experience with this CGM devise. I've had a greatexperience with this se pap machine, whatever it may be, and here's why those are folks who you want to enlist as your allies to get the word out. Sothat's kind of early adopt that's kind of the early adoption curve. Wher we'vespent most of our time working with companies, but I just want to point outthat I do believe there's an opportunity to extend that modelfurther down the down the road or kind of integrate itmore into the sort of care continuum. If you will, because you know greatexample here in my backyard with a major provider- was that theywanted to get a bunch of cardiac patients using an APP when they wenthome to better, manage their symptoms and have some resources in the event thatthey were thinking, they might need to get back into the ED and they didn't talk to cardiac patientswhen they design that UPP and they didn't have very much success, gettingit utilized once it was on the market, and so there was a clear opportunityfor them to actually work with cardiac patients to be in touch with other patients whenthey went home from the hospital to say hey, you know I just I survive this aswell. I know what you're going through. I understand your pain, your anxiety,etc, and here's an APP I've been using provided by this hospital system.Here's why I think you should use it. If you have questions, we can help you.If you have troup, you know any technical support. We can help you, buthaving that message delivered by someone who againwho's been in theirshoes is quite likely going to have a greaterimpact on not individuals willingness to work use that APP than than anybody else in the system. I'm a big believer. I mean, I think, that it's just a nowbrainer. Why wouldn't you? Why? Wouldn't you ask the people that youare expecting to use your solution...

...to help comarket? You know colatch andmake them a part of that process, and so t youknow it sounds David like what you're talking about is that our listeners,health innovators, have the opportunity to include patience from in to end th the beginning. I havean idea. What do you think all the way to I launched in each place and thatcontinue im all the way to I launched it and now help me continue to promoteit. Andto increase adoption and engagement. That's man o absolutelyfantastic, so so, as we wrap up here, what advice this is our last question:What advice do you have for health, innovators who are in the trenchestoday? Well, my advice is to keep your eye onthe prize at the risk of of cliche Musin a Cliche Yep, and to be tenacious, of course, becausewithout that you likely will not survive. You know the health caremarket plays. I certainly, as you would expect itvisepeople to find patients to work with and getadvice from and and then I would say, try to be very open to the to the prospect ofhaving to you know pivot, not just based on whatyou may be learning from your target market. In this case, let's saypatience, but by virtue of trying to bring a newproduct or a solution to market or get significant mark attraction in aecosystem. As you know, complex and some would say, oven rid as it is s Gatword, but that's another show that's a whole. Other apesode now got to beprepared to really roll with the punches and make some significantshifts in your plans based on where you see that friction, because it's prettyhard to break through it yeah yeah. Absolutely well. Thank you so much fortaking the time to share your wisdom with our guests with our audience. Iknow that they, our listeners, are going to get a lot of wisdom, a lot ofgood strategies and considerations from you today. So how can our audience geta hold of you if they've got any other questions about integrating e patientleaders into their commercialization process? Well, if they're on twitter, they canfind me at Ds, gold, that's my twitter handle and I'm certainly active theyredmme. It's an easy way to connect. Word David Dot Goldsmith at Wego healthcom, I'm happy to have a conversation andjust try to steere people in the right direction, provide whatever advice orguidance. I can wonderful. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank youvery much. What's the difference between launchingand commercializing a health care, novation many people will watch a newproduct. Few will commercialize it to learn the difference between latchand commercialization and to watch past episodes of the show head to our videoshow page at Dr Roxycom thanks so much for watching and listening to the showyou can subscribe to the latest episodes on your favorite podcast APPlike apple podcasts and spotify, or subscribe to the video episodes on ourYoutube Channel, no matter the platform just search Coyq with Dr Roxy untilnext time. LET'S RAISE OUR COIQ.

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