Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 2 years ago

Obvious But Often Overlooked Strategies that Impact Market Success w/Julie Mann

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Successful healthcare organizations build a successful structure and culture early on, and lay the right foundation from the onset. This is something many upcoming innovators can learn and implement early in their operations.

How do we come up with compelling and powerful foundational messaging? What are the most pivotal decisions our guest’s team made that are paying off significantly now? How do we uphold the strength of our value proposition?

On this episode, Chief Commercial Officer at Holon Solutions, Julie Mann, shares what has contributed to their success and the key lessons they’ve learned along the way. 



Guest Bio- 

Julie Mann is the Chief Commercial Officer at Holon Solutions. She leads commercial operations for Holon Solutions. Holon empowers their value-based care clients with patented, first-to-market, sensor-based solutions to surface contextual insights into the workflow. 

 

Holon liberates the data to liberate the care. Julie is passionate about solving the challenges in healthcare through innovation, collaboration, and partnership. For more information, visit https://www.holonsolutions.com/ or connect with Julia on LinkedIn.  

Welcome to Coiq, where you learn how health innovators maximize their success. You're working on something big, something life saving, something world changing. Yet ninety five percent of health innovations fail and real lives are on the line. That's why launching is not enough. Commercialization is the most critical, yet overlooked stage of the innovation process. Through candid conversations with health innovators, early adopters and influencers, you'll learn the five components of the COIQ early adoption strategy. So, if you want to change lives and dominate your market, why not give your innovation the best chance to succeed? I'm your host, Dr Roxy, founder of Legacy DNA and international bestselling author of how health innovators maximize market success. And now let's join the conversation and maximize your success. Welcome back to the show coiq listeners. On today's episode we are going to explore what it takes to successfully commercialize and innovation and healthcare, and I have from someone who is doing it really well, and I have someone with me here today, Julie Man. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Dr Roxy. So Julie is the chief commercial officer for Whole on solutions and I thought you would be able to, you know, start off the conversation by telling us a little bit about your background and what you do. Sure, sure, well, thanks again for having me. So I would say, to start off, I am a customer first person, totally, and currently in my role I need commercial operations for hold on, which is all the customer facing things. So I would classify myself as being the person in charge of making the magic happen, you know, making sure that I'm connecting people that have problems to our solutions that solve them. So I haven't always been in sales. I kind of started my career off in a medical billing company where I used to post charges and payments. I really served as a really good foundation for kind of where I'm at today. Yeah, so slowly I evolved into different roles. I then start kind of training customers on how to use where new cycle management software. The sales team then would tap me to kind of help them with sales presentations and demonstrations, and then from there I kind of got introduced to a full sales role and I would say the common theme in my career has always been that customer focus, but then also always to work with the most innovative technologies that are on the market. You know, I am by nature curious and they're has tones of problems and there's a lot of those...

...technologies out there right that just add to those problems. So I have a tracted two companies that have these kind of breakthrough solutions, and so that's really what landed me at hold on today. So so thank you for sharing that. It's amazing how all of those lily pads, really early on in our career, really influence and build into what we're doing today, when we would have never thought that when we were in that moment. So so, you know, you kind of touched on this a little bit. Describe from your perspective what it's like writing this crazy roller coaster of healthcare in avation today. It's really confusing. You know, I would say that for anybody that's in healthcare that's attended some of the big conferences, like hymns, for example, right, if you are walking through the trade show floors right, right, right and getting gigantic, it is Soliatic, right, and when you just kind of stop and have a casual conversation right and being like so, what do you do? It's very seldom that you hear somebody articulate something in the simplest form that you can understand and be like right in most cases, especially in those scenarios where him's you know, has a wide variety of different healthcare technology solutions, not like a niche, you know audience. It's really interesting, right, it's like, and you still like, okay, what do you do though? Right, for me I've always just really been focused on that, is, like, how can you take something that's super complicated, that you know is really innovative, but be able to commercialize it in a way that people are instantly going to get it? You know, it's not be this really ten paragraph explanation. You know, it's like a couple sentences, like that's what we do, and then you can die and deep. Yeah, so what are this couple of sentences for you guys? For us, it's hold on. Liberates the data to liberate the care, and that we love that too. It was like we do what's really complicated in the back end. Right, we have a new way of making data actionable, and we can go into that, but fundamentally that's what we do. We liberate the data to liberate the care and it was a statement that my colleague Robert Conley kind of just throw out there. You know, we're prepping for a big meeting. When what with our prospect at the time? Phillips, yeah, we liberate the data, and I was like yes, exactly. This was at the time when one of the star wars movies is coming out. Right. So the rebellion or huge nose right, right, right, just loosely like kind of put it out there as we are putting our our presentation together with Phillips, and when we said we liberate the data, it...

...just really resignated with them because the current state that we're in my healthcare right is data pilot. It's all over. The people have made tremendous investments in different kinds of technologies, whether it be their HR, their Hie, their pop health platforms. Yeah, and fundamental problem that they have is they can't make that data actionable because it's locked in these silos. You know, the best solution that people have come up with is like a portal or something like that, but it's right not out there. Yeah, so the word liberate, people get it. You know, he's soon as we say we liberate the data, they're like Whoo, we need that and we're with a purpose. Right. The reason that we're creating it is we want to let physicians be physicians, you know, we want nurses to be nurses, we want the care team to feel like they have the right information about the patients that they're seeing, and so it's been really rewarding to kind of come to that. You know, it was kind of quirky how it started, but it really speaks to fundamentally what we do. You know, in my experience, the most powerful compelling messaging strategy that we've ever developed for our clients has always been developed in the most strangest ways. You know, I have a colleague and as soon as she says, okay, this is going to sound really dumb, but and I'm like, okay, you know the mad is coming. You did. Yeah. So it's just, you know, you stumble upon these things and it's like Aha, and what I really love about the you know, this phrase that you just communicated is obviously it's simplicity, but as you think about early adopters, you know, just characteristically of early adopters, they're kind of rebels, right. They're looking for like the new, the different what everybody else is it doing, and so just that word, that verb liberate, like what early adopter doesn't want to get behind that movement, so that it's attracting that early segment of the market in a real powerful way. You know, it really has, and it's allowed US really kind of cut through, you know, that noise that is it is hymns, that is the healthcare it space in general. And I think that we're also really focused right, like we're not trying to save the world and do everything right. Like the whole reason that we started the company was, you know, we just saw this data problem right, like it used to be like a paper problem, you know, a data problem, and you can't just give people a fire hose of Longitudinal data and think that that's going to be actionable and they're in a really right all that text and be like, Oh, I just needed to know about who their PCP was right. So that whole thought of being like let's just be really meaningful, of being focused on solving this very specific problem of being able to service the right information at the...

...right time. So that's another thing that I think is really fascinating about this whole commercialization process. As you're talking about solving a single problem. So a lot of times when we're working with health innovators, they might go into it with the intent to solve one problem, but it's like, but we could also solve this and we can solve this and we could solve this for this market and this for this submarket. And so I find that that convolutes the messaging, that convolutes the value proposition, and it sounds like that's also something that you've done that's really been a game changer for you guys. Is really focusing on a single business problem. It really is, because the end of the day, it's like we are so focused on getting the right information to the care team. When we right, so it leads to other things, right. So we did go through an exercise really early on when I joined and coming up with our commercial plan. Right, say, who is our ideal customer profile? and not that that's like a unique strategy, but it's really really important, right, and so understanding like, okay, this is kind of what we can do. Who are the people that you know have this problem? You know, you could say all of healthcare, right, like you could say that we narrowed it down to primary markets and we were ultra focused on those primary markets, and those primary markets for us, our health systems and vendors, and with each of them they have the same users, right, it's right on the care, the care teams, and so our messaging slightly different, right, but we know we have this focus and we went through this exercise. The first time we did it was really painful, right, because we have strong personalities. That's what makes us a great team, right. Yeah, yeah, perspectives and you want to work through it, really do. Yeah, you know, we agreed, right, like this is our foundational kind of game plan, like this is who our customer is, this is who it's not, this is who we are and this is who we're not. And it gave us our marching orders so that as we got into these conversations, because it's pretty common, you know, when we're kind of showing people like what we can do, that they'd be like, Oh, can you help me with this? You know, and in the plast right, it would have been so easy we didn't have those guard reels. would be like sure, why not, let's try it, and it would go we need cash flow, exactly, you need cash flow, so let's do it. Yes, and so it's also kind of given us that discipline, you know, to say let's we agreed on this. Now there are every once while, right, there will be kind of that anomaly that POPs up, but we'll talk about it and be like okay, like what are the rules that will have for this engagement? You know, let's put some book ends, if you will. Yeah, and because you don't want to shut down something really good. But it's allowed to us to have that foundation that we then built upon. And so we knew exactly who are targeting, you know, when you exactly what problems were solving for them,...

...and it just made such a better interaction with those customers. So, you know, it seems as though that that is kind of like a no brainer, going through the exercise of that targeting strategy and really developing that ideal customer profile and, like you said, not only what you are or who is your ideal customer, but also who is who is not your ideal customer. But so many people overlook that strategy, M and what I see happen really often, especially for early stage healthcare tech companies, is that if they don't do that work when they're in the pilot phase, they get really excited about it and they've got this new business and typically those early adopter customers are visionaries there they see the future. That's what motivated them to buy into something that was really brand new. And when they do that, they have all these ideas of what they could do with your solution. And so how do you determine which one of those are going to be great ideas and they're commercially viable for all of your customers, and which ones are just the customization that that particular customer is wanting that could derail you and take you off course? Oh, isn't that a good topic? Well, Um, I can tell you were going through that with one of our largest ACEO customers. Right, they're fantastic, and one of the reasons that they're so fantastic is because we're a perfect fit, right, like we had a piece of technology that they really needed to get the problem. And so when you find they have that, right, we didn't force anything, you know, and right they force anything. It just was going to work, right, like, okay, cool, let's so we're starting from that standpoint. The other thing that really works is transparency and just talking to them, right. So no doubt they were kind of throw some things at us and we tried a couple and some just did not work right. Yeah, we're like, Hey, you know, we tried it, we went into it with you and a spirit of partnership, but this is where we need to stay focused. Yeah, yeah, so we just had another conversation, I don't know, I want to say like three months ago, and they told us about this really big strategic priority and we didn't had known about it, and we're like, well, cool, let's help you with that. We're like, we can just our product. Does that right, but you can help you solve that problem. And they're like Oh, you know. So, not only was it such a an Aha moment for us, like with them, we immediately didn't start, you know, developing everything and, you know, want to commercialize another application. Yeah, we tapped several industry experts, you know, consultants, analyst, obviously, lots of other provider organizations, lenders, and just said Hey, we got heard about this, you know, would this be meaningful to you? and Dr Roxy, consistently people were like if you can solve...

...for that. And so when you get that overwhelming reaction, you know you're onto something really good. Yeah, again, we you know, kind of quickly and again, since very like a young, Nimble Company, we can kind of hear and stuff together pretty quickly and striding announcement about this new application on our platform. And not only do we just make the new announcement, we also found a couple of customers to do it with w toes. You right that that innovator, early adopter, when they're like, we've been trying to solve this to you guy. You know, and I think that those are the kinds of markers, if you will right, that when you kind of are consistently hearing that you don't just listen to one person. You know, I start to, you know, throw it out there with a dirt diverse pool and you're getting that consistent feedback. It's so exciting. Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Do you want your innovation to succeed, to change lives, to shape the future of healthcare? I want that for every health innovator, which is why I invented Coyq and evidence based framework to take your innovation from an idea to start up to full market adoption. If you're not sure, we are. You are in the commercialization process. Take the free assessment now at Dr Roxycom. backslash score. Don't miss out on impacting more lives just because you have a low co IQ score. The free assessment is at Dr Roxycom. backslash score. That's Dr Roxiecom. backslash score. And now let's jump back into the conversation. So it's almost like a full, an informal version of CO creation with the customers and so always advocating for Co creation. You know, it's fascinating to me how many entrepreneurs or companies that want to only innovate do all of that product development with their internal team and don't tap into the external stakeholders that can really reduce the rd cost and and kind of make sure that you're going to go to market with something that's actually going to solve one of their top priority problems right now. You know, it's funny, even when you say it, it's like it sounds so obvious, right, like when you get around technologists especially, right, like yeah, so in love with what they can build. You know, yes, our of it, and it's like no, no, right, you have to design to solve a problem and you have to engage those people that you're solving the problem for and during that process for us, right like we went we got super excited and it was almost like it's like okay, let's ring back in right and like it's focus and...

...let's talk to people and not just talk to like, you know, the top executives of our right yea, engaging throughout their organization and multiple stakeholders to again, not just talking at and I can tell you it's so rewarding, right, like when you actually call people up right, and I have a lot of favorite clients, you know, my team teasing me all the time because they're, like you said, about everybody, the best clients because if I were in question, I can just call them. And if it doesn't matter if it's like the chief medical officer or, you know, one of the nurses who's an administrator. You know, they all like want to talk to us because they know that we care, you know, and that's so I mean, that's that's that's unheard of, or not unheard of, but it's rare. Usually it's like I'm busy, they answer chaotic over here. Don't call me and let there's a fire. No, and it's so awesome because it's like it's just making it transparent. Right. To be like hey, we were talking Soanso and they thought about this would just be meanful to you, because about how a lot of decisions are made in healthcare right, like, let's just say the sea sweet decide that they have this problem and they're like, you know, we're just going to throw this piece of technology at it, it's going to be salved. Yeah, I mean, and users get it and are like, we're not using that. Right later, it's like a bust, right for us to kind of gage th out organizations and be talking to everybody and make sure that everybody's aligned and then design, you know, they apt to meet their workflows and make their workflows better. Yeah, well, powerful, because then people use it. You know, clinician engagement goes up, you know, ury goes up and like everybody's happy and yeah, and that's why I feel like I can say those things, like I love all our customers. So you you kind of mentioned this a little bit, but take us back to like the early days, right, the beginnings of whole on solutions. You know what, what do you think? What were some of those decisions that you or the organization, you know, the other leaders made that. You think we're just like pivotal decisions for you, like if you hadn't made that, like you didn't really maybe realize it then that it was going to be so impactful, but looking back in hindsight, wow, this was a game changer for us. This was you know, helped put it set up on the path of success. Yeah, I would say that, hands down, for us, it was picking the best early customers. HMM, not only the people who were like the innovators, right, but the people that truly will wanted to go into a relationship with us as partners, understanding that we haven't have everything figured out. You know, we got like really smart people that created some like new solutions, sold problems, but there were still going to be some figuring out and you...

...know, you hear their term like development partners. Yeah, really categorize them as that. I really categorize them as early customers. And so we had some absolutely fantastic ones and ones that would work with us and have those conversations right then that I was talking to not looking to us to be like they have all the answers. You know, they knew that. Okay, here is what we think. What do you think let's try it out and let's then talk about it like what worked? What did it work? And I think having those relationships was just absolutely key. And at the same time, we walked away from a few relationships right that, on paper it was kind of hard. I go. We hadestions, right, going back to the whole Castalo conversation, and right to be like that's not going to help us, right, like I don't think that that's going to be something that's going to be a long term win. It is going to help a short term problem, right, but I really think that fundamentally, choosing the best customers was one of the best decisions we've made. So, you know, kind of take us back to that, that moment or that stage. You know, was anyone on the team ever concerned about turning down business or saying that this was an ideal customer and this and was it? And you know, was there any type of you know negotiation internally who those early customers were going to be? Like, you know what's I mean? I'd imagine that it's not like everybody's always on the same page of like this is what we're going to do. Some people are to you know, typically of like you know, how could we say no to this? I mean, you nailed it. I mean I think that that's what I love about our team, right, is like, is there any decision that is made that everyway's like yeah, good idea, right, right. So it is having those different perspectives and questioning like everything, you know, and I appreciate that so much and I think that's part of the reason that we've been so successful is because we have that culture right where everybody feels good to be able to content jump in and have an opposing view and challenge things, because we're all in this together, right. And Yeah, there were some hard conversations and I think kind of going back to those initial that I deal customer profile session that we did was like remember that right opportunity would be called the sand, you know, for why? Yes, and I think when you start talking about like some big names and healthcare, you know, it's like people just want to have that as a customer and it's like yeah, you guys that it's not a good deal for us right. Oh my goodness, it's like you're preaching to the choir here. Get all woo woo because you know, ABC Oompdoop help system said, yes, yeah, could actually be your demise. Yes, it is your company down. Yes, hopfully, the AU accracy, the...

...time, the change of priorities, you know, and a lot of times, especially for startup or emergent companies, I'm all I'm often recommending that they're looking for the you know, sea, sea level of clients, right, not even the secondary ones, but sea level, because they're going to I found that they're going to be the ones that are more open to that partnership relationship that you described earlier, where they're not expecting you to have all the answers and they're really wanting to participate in the development of that solution. Yes, Yep, and I can totally see that and I think that, you know, when we look back at these things, that's everything right, those early relationships and growing them into even bigger engagements is really, really exciting, and we certainly experience that with our you know, vendor partners, be because it's real to them right, like they're in a competitive space. They have users that want their stuff to be easier to interact with and so hold on, can be their silent partner. So it makes sense right that we're absolutely at the table with them and talking with them and there's some really cool things that are going to come out. Yeah, that's awesome. So, you know, there's a lot of conversation right now about not necessarily going to market with products and solutions as much as it is with going to market and creating a category and the market catch up and that being a really rule strong strategy for success and that if you're just looking to just build awareness and adoption of your innovation, you're only going to increase you know so far. But if you're actually trying to help create a whole category that you know so much thought, leadership and authority with that that it kind of snowballs its effectiveness. Any you know experience our thoughts around creating a category versus marketing a specific solution. It's so interesting that you say that, because when we were really kind of coming up with our foundational messaging a couple of years ago, it was hard for people because we are a new solution. Right, we don't fit into anyone category nicely, right, right, because we are surfacing insights into the workflow. We're not an interface vendor or books, we're not in the HR, and at first people just want to buck it. You into one of these categories. And so we went through this discussion of like, okay, maybe we're this new category and then rely, let's not do that. Let's just focus on the problem that we're solving, right, yeah, let us stay are and kind of fast forward, you know, to just even a couple weeks ago, I was talking to I had a series of talking to...

...several analysts and I talked to Forester Gartner and frost and Sullivan. Yeah, every single one of those conversations, Dr Roxy, they were like you guys don't get into anyone category and we love this. Right, you still stuff doesn't and I was like, Oh, cool, because we think that too. I stop stressing out about it. You know, R does not apply it. I can't tell you how many forms we would fill out where they're like get into it. I was like does not apply, right, because we don't. But we're stilling a problem, right, right, that's so funny. So you know that in my experience it's one of the pitfalls because, you know, it's it's a natural and a lot of ways for us to want to fit in one of those boxes, but then there becomes this disconnect of how we going out to the market place and saying we are unique and different. You wanting to attract these revolutionary early adopters, but but we're like this, yes, like, well, now you just basically, you know, ruined everything else you were saying, because now of a sudden I'm putting you in the old box and you're not exciting and new and different anymore. Yeah, yeah, and I love that you say that because, again, that was another one of those kind of decisions right where it's like a lot of stress and I'd be like maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. We're like, you know what, no, we're just going to leave with this, right, when I can spend all this time creating this category or whatever? Right, right, very focus on what the clients need to be successful, and I'm so happy that you said that. So, so, what number employee were you, because I think you were, you one of the earlier or you were there. You know, it's some of the beginning stages, right. Yeah, so hold on the solution that we have today. We just commercially launched it in January of twenty eighteen, and I say that I'm like, oh my gosh, I was like in so many ways it seems like yesterday and then it seems like many years in the right, right, right. And so with that, yeah, I was part of the team right it was brought in to commercialize, you know, the solution just awesome and exciting and so very early on we are in growth mode right now and we are going to be, you know, standing our team, which is really really exciting, and so I think it's been really rewarding to be an early member of the team and kind of go through kind of that stage and just know that there's so many other great things ahead of us. Well, one of the things that I wanted to point out is that you're the chief commercial officer, and that is a title that I often find in much larger, mature organizations. So I think that I, you know, as someone being on the outside looking in, I would say that that's probably one...

...of the most important decisions that the CEO or the leader, whoever hired you made, was bringing someone of your caliber to kind of fulfilled that role that early. I don't see that happen very often. They're thinking like oh well, when we get to this, that's bring someone at that level in, but at that point all of those commercializacent decisions are mostly already made and and so bringing you in early, I assume, had a big impact on the business. I think so, you know, and I think like when I it was very clear to the team. You know, they told me that they knew exactly kind of what they're getting with me, right. So they were really focused on kind of kicking me because they felt like I could kind of help them out. Yeah, I had that walking into it, you know. So I knew that I had the confidence of the whole team and everybody was going to be very open, collaborative and honest with me. And I can also tell you that when I first started, they kind of thought I would just be over sales and helping kind of commercialize from that perspective. Very quickly, it's very quickly, I think, like is like like you know, this is all this value we can't pass up, right, and it's almost like when you're early stage of that right too. From me, I wouldn't be able to been able to do it if I was super siloed. I needed some tool to interact with all the client facing components of the business, right, because you know, going to clients and listening to them and then you know, talking to prospects, I have problems, and then talking to our implementation team or you know, all of those things were allow me to kind of lead our strategy as a member of the team. But it's been very rewarding and I came up here. So how do you you know, how do you think that the early structure of the Organization and Culture of the organization is playing a role in your success? I think that it is critical to our success. You know, I think that the culture at poll on truly is it's a team effort. You know, no one thinks that it's, you know, one person driving everything, and I'd get kind of having that culture of we're all in this together and also this openness right of everything's not always rainbows and UNICORNS, don't know, to kind of constantly be bringing feedback back and talk through those things. And I think that culture is so special and we've tried to also kind to put that out there, because a lot of companies don't want to hand that and you know, it's awesome what all the tools available today right like we're huge on twitter, you know, we love Linkedin, we do blogs and we try to post pictures of different names. You know, like outside of just the professional stuff that...

...hold on's doing, you know, some fun. Yeah, and it's so cool because I'm always talking to a prospect and I wrote a blog about the revolutionary war and I use the term liberate, you know, and she was like, I was reading that and I was wondering how you're in tied that back to liberating data. She goes, loved it and it's just said the stage. Were such a nice conversation, right, because she felt like sharing knew me a little bit and she already knew, like, you know, the vibe that hold on and what we're trying to do, and she's like this and this is where we're at, and it was like we're already on the partnership discussion. She ares over that getting to know each other thing a little bit more. And so I think as we grow, you know, we've been very intentional to try to keep that, you know, Spirit out there so that people can kind of see, hey, this is what hold on is all about. There's no surprises, and I think that's really important. Yeah, that's awesome. I'm so happy for you guys. So you all. So you just kind of touched on something else that I think is really interesting is the power and the equalizer of social media. So you know, that good idea is not necessarily new. Right. Social media has been around for a long time, but I think especially in health care and for a startup, you know again that whole social media thing is kind of like, okay, when we get to a certain size, then we'll hire someone to kind of manage our social media. So it's kind of like a afterthought or like a longer term strategy, and there's such a huge opportunity that's missed if we overlook that or wait for that for later, for the all the reasons that you're just talking about. You know, when you're talking about boots on the ground and trying to connect with people right with phone calls or emails or knocking on doors, it can especially with a cold prospect. I mean, oh my gosh, it can take forever. Yea. And but then you can have that that encounter, that let unsolicited encounter on digital and just open the door wide open. Yeah, and you know, I feel like so many healthcare companies aren't doing it. You know, I've been a fan of it forever. I had a friend, Gabe, he's amazing. He set me up on this like maybe five years ago. I can't you know. Huh. The other day I was like, I love what you're doing. I'm always following you on twitter and I said, I know, it's so powerful and that's what I love about it. Is You the topics that are important to you and you can carry through the noise. Yes, so for hole on, that's got a big deal. You know, we do Hashtag, liberate the data and you get all our stuff and right, right, it's like, you know, it's fun to put it out there. But we've made some really, really great connections. You know, I got an introduced to this woman by the name Jenny Sharp and she does the sharp index, which is dedicated to reducing physician burnout, which is a great ally for hold on. Right. It brought us together and we've done really cool things and we have a couple other things planned. But we've met so many...

...people like that through the use of social media and it's almost like a modern day like newsletter about like, you know, back of the day you would mail out, you know, like a slick to somebody and whatever those ends up in the garbage. Can you know with twin we don't have damn their email address. And you can also like it's just really cool and it's a way to engage with people and in the market and just stay current and what's going on. MMM. So what, what recommendations are advice do you have for those listeners, those health innovators right now that are in the trenches, that are really struggling for for one reason another? You know, what recommendations do you have for them? I would best sum it up, probably buy a lot of the topics you know that we touched on. I'm you've got to start and you have to be focused, right. So you gotta have a problem that you're solving. If you're not solving a meaningful problem, like forget about it, just stop right. So, assuming you have a really great problem and over ISS A, you have a tough problem, you have a really great solution to that problem. Yeah, I go through that where you're of identifying who your ideal customer is right and then you have to stay disciplined with focusing on that and I think once you kind of have those things, the rest will kind of fall into place, you know, and having those early customers right that are going to look at you as a true partner and you're in it together and you're getting feedback and support from them. I think that those things combined are really what struggling organization should look at first. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom today with all of our listeners and with me. I appreciate it so great so much. Has Been so fun, absolutely all right. Well, until next time. Okay, bye, bye. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and your attention. To save time and get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who's been sharing the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Coiq.

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