Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 106 · 3 weeks ago

Sell small. Sell early. w/ Mayur Saxena


Having a mission and vision are par for the course with healthcare entrepreneurs. We all want to change the face of healthcare in a positive way.

Staying focused on your mission while growing and scaling your startup, though, that’s where it can get tricky. It’s good to have a few tools in our toolboxes, like how to leverage sales functions in your startup.

Mayur Saxena can tell us all a thing or two about leveraging sales and growing a scalable startup - he’s done just that with his company Droice Labs.

In our latest episode, Mayur talks about key strategies he put into place that helped him bring 50 healthcare systems on board. And, come on, 50? That’s amazing for a healthcare innovation!

Come hear Mayur tell his story and dish a few insights - then take a trick or two back with you to add to your toolbox.

Here are the show highlights: 

  • Finding a path to better care programs (6:53)
  • It’s okay to be mission-driven and disruptive (12:07)
  • How being mission-focused can affect funding (19:43)
  • Why you should stay mission-focused but reality based(22:42)
  • The first function for startups is sales (29:54)
  • Dig deeper and find the value in negative conversations (31:33)  

Guest Bio 

Mayur Saxena is CEO of Droice Labs, a company that is dedicated to enabling personalized medicine at scale.

As both entrepreneur and scientist, Mayur spends his career concentrating on advancing medicine using high-noise/big data analysis.

In addition to occupying key roles in several startups, including co-founding a biotech firm in the diabetes space, Mayur earned his Ph.D. from Columbia University, focusing on the computational physics of disease.

If you’d like to contact Mayur directly, you can email him at, or find him on LinkedIn at Mayur Saxena. If you’d like more information about Droice Labs, visit their website at

You're listening to health, innovators,a podcast and video show about the leaders influencers and early adopterswho are shaping the future of health care on your host Doctor Roxy Movie. Welcome back to the show Helth enneveron today's episode. I have my or sex INA with me, who is the CEO of Joycelabs. Welcome to the show! Thank you for having us. It is so good to have you here, so Ialways like to start off the episode by you just sharing a little bit aboutyour background and what you're innovating these days just to give somecontext. For today's conversation, sure as a background, I consider myself ascientist who happens to be an entrepreneur most recently education wise. Ifinished my phd work at Columbia, university in the fat field ofhealthcare data science right like working with different types oftherapeutics, and what not I'm an engineer ratlike I personallyenjoy building things and building these, not just engineering machinesbut building literary organizations building, let it teams building peoplebuilding, let's say things that have an impact right. So that's how I look atthings. For me, it's fun to be in health care,I'm a passionate health care. Individual, I think hell care issomething that will impact everyone and already is, like you know, gaining moreand more etive visibility in people's life, and that's my personal, let's saymotivation that, okay, how can I do hell care wherever I am I'm originallyfrom India? It might degrade their Tamisin through. Let a variouscountries to the US back in two thousand and twelve have been heresince then. Working in the field, developing some ventures, helping someventures and now taking grows forward nice and so tell us a little bit aboutrice, Andries, a healthcare AI company there as a mission for the company, welook at it as we are to match individual patients to intervention ortherapy is drugs, write any intervention, that'll work for themright, so we are matching AI company. If you think about medicine in general,right, like medicine, is matching patients to things that work for themright. So, in a lot of ways, it's a really big Masson. It's a big visionright like that or if you want to match every patient to the intervention thatwill work for them put so my vice step process and we areon this journey. We started in two thousand and seventeen two thousand andsixteen late in this part today around forty people right like developing this serving let a health systems, richhospitals, like providers of general type life, scientist, companies,payrents and government agencies across the United States, Europe and Russia. I mean this sounds like an incredibledream. How close are we are you? I say we HA.How close are you to making this a reality? Yeah, I think they not just asright like guiding a whole healthcare community as a whole is working towardsthis mission. We see it as as a very electric technical approach to whereand like making a technology agent come into this mix to accelerate thisexponent tary right at a we siate. But if you look at it like overall, what is happening is that most of thetimes like, if I have to personalize the care for any individualit like any individual, I obviously have to work with this individual'sinformation. Okay, if my? U Is that individual? What did you eat right?What happened to me you like in the past, let lear you know like aresponses, what happened to their letare treatment response it they wereon this drug. How did dear disease progress all these different thingsright? So the way we look at it is that, like a somebody, some technology orsome platform has to consume this information about the individual fromall over make sense of it and surface... at okay. This is where this person'sdecease is going. Can you intervene right? So it's a multi, fascinateproblem. We are at this like in our stage where we are doing this acrosslanguage and across systems helping these physicians helping theseClenachan take these decisions. We don't see it as, like. You know, an aiwhich will just do this on a throne. We see it as a hyperionic, very smartindividuals, doctors were already serving patients and then technologyenabling them to make that happen. So so this sounds incredible. One of the things that we know is thatyou know health care as a whole has been struggling for years to aggregatedata for number of reasons. So what are you guys doing differently? That'shelping you get access to this multi source data. That's going to be soimportant in the foundation for what you re trying to accomplish. Yeah. Isee I thinking the future is you know like whereevery individual has theirgeno their proteome they're, like you know the basic every they all thethings that have happened to them: Their Diet, history, all of thataggregated and intelligent systems on that system, analyzing it and guidingthe right people to dispense better care right. THAT'S THE ER! But if youlook at like the history of health care, health care is a is a. You know, bike,one of those dusty fields. Right like we work with regulation, it's a fieldthat is moving at its own pace for good reason. Right, like you can't, youcan't do fast and break things in health care right, because they are notthings, they are people. So the way we look at this is that, like opposed twothousand and ten, especially in the United States, when I like, after thehigh take act and the adoption of the Mrs massive amounts of liar information,has been captured at these health systems about patients, diseases,patient progressions patients with various things that are happening thereyeah now. The problem is that, like most of this, data was never collectedto do personalization of care right. It was actually be collected for moreadministrative purposes. Now, here comes in Troyes that the thesis is okayin the future. We have all this data all organized and collected foreveryone, but in the meantime, in the ten fifteen years when the years areleft in between, can we transform the data from, as is the UNE situation andutilize that to enable better decisions today, right like in this like period,that's the COR thesis from a data standpoint that we are trying to get to and to do that right, like that's. Avery like a lot of ai problem, because you can read a lot of this data. Youcan understand a lot of the data across languages across systems across, likeyou know, massive therapeutic areas that have just not understood and makethat happen. So that's like how we are looking at it's a different approachand there for a different technology there for a different stack right. Sothe way of what we are doing in a sum reason like you're, supplying a new,let Secare personalization stack to the market, which can be leveraged byhealth systems, payers life sciences, to personalize the care of the people,to get better outcomes to dispense, better care, which we think undomed isthe future of health care m very exciting. So where are you in this innovationprocess? Now in like just to give an idea like we work with, like I think,over fifty health systems across the globe where we are like, you know,helping them dispense this care. We work in with major life scientistcompanies which are using this to design better therapies to understandvarious disease populations develop better to let's say you know inTerentian protocols and is used by government gence right the ram, a stategovernment, and I want to understand. Okay, what exactly is my disease burden?What are the various letter heart failure, populations? What is happeningto them? Can I do now come in and design a better care program can toprocure better drugs. Can I procure better interventions, so this is wherewe are. It's like a as a right, a ither massive. We the way the KPIS dries woksat is like a number of patients. We...

...are going through. Prato. That's likeone major thing. Impact right for us is a big deal and that's like in ten ofmillions of patients. Today, as a I little company right like that, westarted extends a million or patients of data which we have gone through andimpacted the care of today Riandar like a city's, a stage company which is likemoving forward in that lection yeah. Well, that's what I want to know. Imean, I know our audience wants to know it is, is how did you get to this pointright? So you, you are really doing something, that's very revolutionary,that a lot of people have probably dreamed of and haven't been able tokind of figure out the recipe for success yet and and so you're an earlystage company and you've already got. You know, like you, said fifty plushospital systems around the world that are using the platform. So how are yougetting those early adopters and how are you getting people to grasp the potentialof this very revolutionary invention, yeah? I think the the good thing about I'll tell you like how we started likethe founding story and where the why we went this rout right like so. This wasnine two thousand and sixteen O tousand and seventeen. When I was stillfinishing my PhD right like and I was actually part of a pharmaceuticalstart up right like where we're commercializing a therapy right. So Iwas working with, like you know: Physicians,Crows, like Varios Helca, stay holders and sending up like cleaning a trialsand what not across different countries right. So that's like that was thewhole thing and that's when we saw that. Actually, if you look at like diabetes right likediabetes or it's a hard failure, they are not a disease, they are a wholespectrum of conditions of its own right. So no two hard failure. Patientsregular in all likelihood are not the same. They actually are very differentand that answer that what type of patient is this? What type of vision isthis is likee? You know unknown right so like and it's difficult for even aphysician to desipere and immediately. We is how the people handle it today,right like so, people are handling it by massive lites service Pie win, I soof like a whole outsourcing. It is your people will go through it, a manwillsomething they will do, and we all know right like how let's say pressurized: Healthcaresystems are there's barely anything. They can do right for the wholepopulation. If you have to do it, Manalich Troy idea did nothing happensright to you end up like in know serving generic care in a lot of caseswhich is bad for the patient and then bad for the outcome and bad for thewhole healthcare community as a pot right. So so we gave up loike. Can wedo immediately ran to like your colleagues, Bat Columbia, a right likeand in new professors at virus that what not can we build technology? CanWe build a technology that can do this right? Can it can basically suck inthese various forms of patient data and then on the other sites, for my yuleswitch him from so no fes drag to this care program and that will be better orFishin for to the Roes drag right like and that cle better for this out cup,so that was the world like t says and immediately we were like okay, you cando this. It can be done, it's a very difficult problem to all, but can bedone yep. You have a lot of data right to like it. You can. You know utilizethis diversity of disease right like wet, and it's for advantage so that Icame this okay, like you know, we are on prebens. We have literally others. Iimmigrants right like to you a let's. You know talk to ever you an so to yourquoe question right, like Ome. How do we convince these people at this stageand the to make this happen? We showed them what is possible by literallyshowing it to them that I a we can take this date. I am, and this is what wecan do. I can tell you for this hard failure, patient. They are going tohave Blah Blah Blah event in the next few months, and this is why we will getthere and immediately the hell sister are we need this right. Like we want tounderstand, is the government is, as you we want to understand, is how, inlife, Senses Company D, You want to...

...understand this right. Can you actuallytransform this data in two thousand and sixteen hand an seventeen this fielddid not exist. People did not believe that this data can actually be usedright for penical purposes. So that's the we were we like for okay. Now itcan be done here is a proof. Can we work together, so that was theconvincing exercise which was based in real, tangible proofs coming out ofthis information, which you know the way you describe it, you make it seemso easy, but it's not. I mean even when you'reworking in a market, that the problem is very mature, you can still havechallenges with convincing someone to choose your solution over someoneelse's and what you're talking about where there's the problem is maturepeople know that the problem it is there, but they don't necessarilybelieve that there's a solution out there to solve it and so being able topersuade them of that, I think, is just so powerful and then being able toaccess those early adopters, because the folks that you're talking to youknow if you've already gotten so many people to say. Yes, then it means thatyou've been able to find those early adopters, which is so critical a lot offolks that I talk to and that we work with they end up spending time. Youknow trying to arm twist and persuade all of these other potential customersthat the late adopters right or the mainstream market. To like you needthis. This is going to change right, but but they don't have any awarenessof the need, or it's not a problem that they're looking to solve right now.They're waiting to see when their competitors or their peers adopt itbefore they make any any movement on it right. So what you're describing is a lot of success in some of those earlycommercial milestones that, I think, is just it's just really incredible andand worth us you know even digging deeper into today. Thank so, I think the we got for US exerbitions right, like it's amission and that Tokay want to match every patient to you know things thatwill work for them. That's the mission for us so, and that is something which has helpedus a lot right like being mission driven, I'm not saying every start upshould be mission, grin because it's perfectly fine to like look at it. I ifwe want to build something cool- and I completely understand the value in thatright, but we happen to be a mission driven right so like for us. It waslike no, this is the mission, so we got on the way right like a lot of it was.As you said, it was not easy by any man. It is not easy right. It won't be easy.Moving forward that it's changed changes never easy great, so it's very disruptive as well. It's likehow is this going to work, and what is he? How is this going to change things?What is it going to change? Is it going to change everything, and we we learned that right like sowhen we started talking to doctors, which was like a great like talking toa surgeon at certain like listen like when I operate it right, like I have myright hand at this angle, my left hand at the angle if they don't pass me thetool exactly at this point of time, it's not good. Okay, that's howspecific they are about, how they work right, how they operate, and it's notas a sertion, even like a primary are doctor, even like an agent Caracter,they all operate in like a very, very, very specific process. How can youinterject in this process and Tevi right, like that's like okay they're,like o Yo, listen great, that you can do this? Where is it? Where do I rightright, right, ptistes going to be to my work, flower, my walk, throw! I work is like theGolden Nugget right, like an ad for good reason right, so so that to thosewere- and we didn't know when we started- we didn't know that right,like honestly, if we had no idea right like okay is that is that how it isright like a then we had to solve it right so like then, we had to next saleso for us ipley actually, but people are like okay, like me, you will youshould not do this right and I see...

...reason in that and like for us beingmission driven were like, but that's the masion right, like we kind budgefrom that and another thing it right and it has become more clear and recentyears, if you're in data, if you're an AI, if you're in health care a tin Ai,it's a very, very hard space right, so your commercialization directions areinfinite right into I still today's market. So if for us you get theseopportunities all reverance, you also do this. Can you also do that? Can youcommercialize this week and you comecipare for us like? Well, sorry,this is the mission right so which is both a good thing and a bad thing. I itkeeps you on course and then give to your mind early adopters and all thesepeople are a that's the mission. We have the same mission. I don'tunderstand everything here. I can help you I can, but I can understand. I wantto help so joy. I actually was built a lot by people who just wanted to helprid like people from the financial industry that I know this rightexplicitly where they I have somebody in the team right like who was. We were interviewing and like weinterviewed this individual first interview and he's like yeah. Well, youknow like this was how much I has is what he's very good right like it iswot I charge what I I'm really go. You find short like great and interviewends, and we are obviously in the whole interview process. He's in Likin knowseveral interview process of his own and then he messages us that listenguys say I looked at upright rig, post or interview. I looked at what you'retrying to do. I understand is forget everything else, I'll work for free,okay. I really want to do this now. This was a Meyoo five, six people rightand you're, like Oh, really, okay, so this is this is, and this is not oneindividual story right. This is how a lot of people I price are were and havebeen right, a mission crying so that victo one answer for you like what keptus on course, at least so far, and what helped us like build to the extent wecould be with pretty much no resources. COMITEM, Hey! It's Dr Roxy, here with a quickbreak from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves youneed to make to survive and thrive in the new Co vid economy? I want everyhealth innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy,which is why I created the Co. Vid proof, your business pivot, kid. Thepivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivotstrategies. It walks you through six categories. You need to examine for athree hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the sixcritical pivot lenses, as you make your way through this comprehensive kit,you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sureyou can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details andopportunities, learn more at legacy: Hyphen Daco Back Kit. What is one o? What's a number one orone commercialization strategy that you think is just so critical to achievesuccess like for Rice or in general, eitherboth let's talk about. Let's talk, I think this is probably like you knowvery obvious, but it's like solving a problem. That is that people are aware of sometalking about commercialization right, so you can follow a problem that nobodyis aware of right and like, and you can solve it in solar, well and that'sgreat right, but for commercialization you to follow a problem. What peopleare usually aware right? As a start, it is definitely a better strategy, beit's a much longer journey when you're trying to educate the market at a aproblem that they don't know that they have, or maybe aren't even interestedin solving exactly right and now think of it from prices perspective, rising adeep tech company right. So deep tech companies are fundamentally differentfrom a typical sarce company, whereas as family is like I'm solving a problem,a t il Sol it really well and I'll... so much that for any individual.I will not be able to build this March and it's much cheaper to just buy itright. That's the basic commercialization or Batac of a saccome, but as on this side in a deter company, you actually don't knowindividual problems. When you begin with right you I want to match patientsto interventions that could work for them. That's a massive problem, but itclicked. You know manifest as several very, very, very small problems and youneed to go in and let you know package the product and to those like piecesfor the systems to actually get right. So you have to do beyond the mission.That's right for rows like okay. That was the whole thing that okay, why didthese people end up working with us? They started talking to us to a tinycompany of no one's vigor of imation and because of what we couldpotentially do. They started actually working with us because we are solvingthose individual pieces of problem. Is that affected your? I think thatthat's really important. So how is that affected your fund, raising with beingable to have this big broad mission right? That just is super altruisticright I mean who doesn't want to transform health care for the entireworld right, who doesn't want to make sure that all patients around the worldget the right treatment that they specific and personally need right. Soyou've got all these investors like yeah, yeah, yeah, okay sounds great,but how right- and so I imagine, as you're- going through that journey-you're evolving your story, and how do you present that big, bold mission andthen these very specific use cases that people are willing to buy? No, I think, that's a that's a prettyimportant question right and, as a CEO, like you like one of the most importantquestions for the size of impact, we want to be at so see in the verybeginning, right like it's still red, like even within the invester spectrum,you have people who will Bet a vision right like who'll bet, like you know,the mission and it's alteratives also like quite important commercially rightfor this industry and if I can actually improve the care for these people atscale across geographies across systems across, like you know, it m FRAstructures, that's a major commercial opportunity right, O Pians, it's Sol afor profit mission. It yeah it so I like, for. I fundamentally believe inthat right like that. If you want to actually create sizeable impact, itwill have to be driven by and let's say, largely commercial models rightbusiness models of big are of that nature. It can be a real you know likethere are you have to and have to think about the business model right so a sothat, like a given as an atropin AU and not just like as a sign or as an adoraslike part and part of the thing, so coming back to the point, I so in thevery beginning that commercial opportunity had to be Christ. LIZE forthese investors, like okay in two years, will be here we'll be selling this muchwe'll be doing. This problem well well be distributing this product like this,and this is what it will look like righted that was that had to be tasted,and it was besets not just the mission at Ausar has to atesia manifest in tothese problems, which have commercial value both for the user and thecustomer, because that's also a business and for us right in totherefore in vesteras a party, so that was like part one now, as you havetranslation as trice has like you know, move forward now you are at the state.Okay, people are using it. We, like you, know like what not and you havecommercial market, ridand growth markets and what not, and now it'sabout skill right like now, it's about a okay! You have this going very well,your is going really well. Can I now you know what what will you do with tenmillion? What will you do with Quentin? What Wi you do with a hundred millionright like? How will you take this forward? What rate will we move? Whatwill the market move? We so think the typical commercial markers have to beshown, and that's irrespective of Ra, is that part of the Decitan y business I mean again again, it sounds like yeah,that's any business, but these are fundamentals that you know not. Everyone has in mind orin place in the beginning of their...

...journey, and I think, if they're goingto be successful, they will learn this or they'll partner. With someone thatunderstands this type of, how do you build a successful businessfundamentally, but you know I talked to so many peoplewhere they're pitching and they have a great idea and theory they're, pitchingit to investors. They're pitching it to early adopters or pilot partners andthey're, not gaining the attraction, and I think a big part of that isbecause they get so caught up in the mission that they forget the bringingit down a reality of like okay. But this is how this is ourcommercialization strategy. This is our path with these incremental milestones,like you said, with the growth markers and being able to have that and forthem to be for the investors to be able to have confidence that say: okay. Yes,I see the broader mission that I want to invest in, but I also see o that youhave the ability to pair that down and focus and like this bowling pen effectright and knock the first pen down and then not the second pin down and soforth. Instead of getting so side tracked of, like I'm going to have astrategy for this pen and the strategy for this pin- and I end up not beingsuccessful because I can't stay focused because the mission is so big and Icould do so many different things yeah. I see two things of this right,so I totally agree with what you are saying and I because you have tootherwise, you can't execute right, like you have to focus on the ways.What will you do? You will never be able to build anything right likethat's the problem with with that. So not the way. At least I understood andlike I understand business is like you know, mission right, then you have avision right. So like Wi mission, rein are too vealy different things, sovision is like what will people be doing if you actually are? You knowenabling your mission at a certain scare right, so, okay, a physician,will be doing this right. A licenses company will be doing this. Having thatclarity is important right. So that's the one then the path quay to that visit right, Ithink, like we should not start up if you don't see apartment to that way,right like because it's really easy ideas are actuallyvery cheap right like and you can find most of the idea right. It's not atwhat Rice's mission is. There's a demission there's a lot of companieswhich have dik you not gone about. This is a pathway, and I approach that isdifferent and in timing right. Why that part way today makes sense. rigit mightbe very different. Two years from now right. If we started two years later,it would have been very different right like for even us how we would go aboutexecute. I think context right, like is very important for that pathway towardsyour vision. So that's like one part. Okay, can I just pause there and say:Yes? Yes, yes, the timing is something that I think it's overlooked. I can'ttell you how many innovators I talk to and it's like, we start to playback thelayers of their timing strategy and their timing strategies when theproduct is finished. It's not based upon market conditions or market trendsor competitive landscape, or any of those types of things that really shapethat path. That you're talking about Kay had to say dark. Don't her thistime, I I again like it's not like. We knew it's one thing to know the conceptor having to know it for your business right like so trust me like there's. No, we don't know it perfectly either rightso king about back right so and I don't think we will be right even at LakeCity B, right like no, we won't be because that's what market is it's aliving organism that it's its own shape? So that's part in Parsel of justbuilding a business right, so you have to prentice the SAS and then, if you're,the CEO or a CFORT company of a start up, then you have to take a call right.You have to bet on it right, that's the whole point of being in a startup, sothat part one and investors want that right, their respective of what it willdo, not tire out to be because they...

...also understand a dynamic of the or thedynamic nature of this whole orger of this set up right so that there, but doyou they need to know that you are thinking it through rightfully atingthat stick at least in the very early stages act. What like your yeah, okay,fine, you will do as I get it right, let's move out and let God and none ofthe ABC actually happened. What happened was like F G N Z right to likewhich is very likely, which is what is like what it is. The mission isconsistent, but the vision keeps evolving by Okay X Y Z is now doing itlike this okay good like now, we can do in it this better than it's always partof the day, yeah in vessons on not now but part to write. The second thing Iwant to say on the investor bred is that I have like what I understand is thatstart up always recruits their invested right like from the and and it's a veryit's a very important decision, especially in this early state that athese as be er at like at this Orley stage. You have to be very, likeparticular about who you bring in right like so to me. Actually it's the otherway right. So, rather than like you know, investors being like you know,doing a Freien, do you so that vision aligning men is very important rightlike it's especially today, right like it. My change in three months, likecompletely en today's market, is so much capital available rain. It's like,but every cap, no matter who says what every piece of capital has a stringattached to it, no matter what they say, what they do. PICART LIKE! Yes, you to entre cannot be nave about itright now, yeah it's this e. They are giving me. You know five million I'lljust take this. Let us go right. It does not work right like it never worksa big a you might be start believing that it's working, that's a differentstory, but like for what you wanted to do right that I can't work, and youshould be okay with that. So identify the right fact right, like it's veryimportant and ever you and every start up has their own strategy. We have ourown right so, for we have real mad particular about investments right,because we take money very seriously in or it'svery important. Okay is the vision alignment there, so we actually spend alot of time with investors on. Do you see that happening? Do you see that tenbillion dollar business actually being created in that high growth right highmargin, but very very high risk like are? Do you have that yeah people saythey do, but when you start peeling the Lars, when you an investor now oractually you don't right so that I think that's part two of the story. Yes,they will need all this, but you also need to do this wetting to make thathappen, not just like any money. Somebody moneysays: Yeah you. It is not mere like a lot ofAntemona like they dimissed. This part that you workfor the money. Actually a lot of the times in this business. Right, like theyou have to accept that as like on is true, then then go for it yeah yeah. So in one of our earlierconversations you were talking about the importance of starting to sellearly and tell us tell me, tell us a little bit more about that and how thathas played out for you or how you see that playing out in the market place. Ipersonally think that, like the first function right, I won't say like a highbut of function that any start or should have a sate irrespectable you dowhere I'm coming from biotanates, I'm so impressed and I'm coming from Biteright where you won't sell anything for like ten years right. I normal right,but try to understand like when I'm meal at sale function that salesfunction would be selling the business that he sen on him. Resenting thevision, a self same from him be selling anything right, but the first functionis saved. I I I it's very important. The rate at wage like the smartest individual right, like themost intelligent individuals. Can it...

...rate, like you, know much faster thanlet sir somebody less bright right like an obvious. However, the even the smartestindividual can't retrate it like the crowd source. Iteration right like theycan't do that right. So knowing talking to people right like getting thatinside in and correcting your course baser, Aha right like it takes, itsaves you months to years very quickly, right so selling, and that's what Imean by selling right like presenting the point and like okay, this, what Iwant to do this, so I'm going about it. What do you think this is really bad torediae idea? Those are the conversations where you want to spendhours, not right. Oh yeah got it so like so is I'll tell you right. So Iwas this o how this happened once so when we were starting, I don't know like we started a hack athome right, so we were presenting and part witting in the hackathon. We havepresented this idea, as was a happening at like the Google offices in New York,and we were presenting this and and we've won that hacken right so like sothat's how Gris Ted that was like the name, drows drug toy, that's how it allcame about right, so post winning it as e like we want two thousand dollarsright so like and then three of the five sixteen members and that hackathonstarted this company. So that's how we started this whole Makosi this process,so post winning so yer like interviews, everything and I find like it. Moyastart outside, but not and then I'm outside and then there's a guy very smart, very capable individual.He sets me down right, okay. So now you have two thousand five hundred dollarsand Xyz the one of the biggest companies right like in this pace inhealth care. They have. You know a few billion. Tell me how you get thereright. I don't think you'll get there and they think about right. Once you winany competition right like they are ten people who are ready to Corentin Yo pothey do. This is what had we we or ead that thank you image we to talk to you,this guy. We need to talk to for, like you know, a few hours so that statethat Atteo I actually had now that what happened we ended up after two nights.Like you know, canters have got three or conversations with this individual, where he's just beating on us right,just like this is really bad is really bad, really bad, really bad really. ButI've done this, like you know this way, and this man Aissan he's a very capable,very successful individual right so and black conversation taught us probablylike six months of work in those three hours at least the seed right I'll tellyou right so that conversation then led to our first investor that conversationlet to our first plied that conversation let to a lot of otherthings. So it's that I negative right woo conversation that you need to haveLingala Eglamor, yeah, yeah, so the humility to be able to say yes,it will work and walk away. You know, don't don't try to destroy my dream butto be able to sit there for three hours s, and you know someone tell you thatyou have a bad idea like you're, that it's not going to work but being ableto listen to that and being able to not just hear it but then absorb it, filterit and go wow. Is there something I need to do differently here in order toreally make this work? That's that's powerful again, it's another one ofthose things that seem really really simple, but it's fundamentallysomething that I think just a lot of human beings just skip over, because wewant to defend or attack or blame or say, you're an idiot. That's why youdon't get it instead of really being able to hearthat feedback and adjust accordingly, so you're like yes and I look at it tothis world, but I'm saying it's like sales function right, so a salesfunction typically is right that this conversation is worth my time and thisconversation is not right, even though both are saying if we are interested orboth are saying you're not interested right. So so you might want to convertsomebody who saying I'm not interested into like you know, I'm interested oryou might be to Dicha. Okay, this guy's...

...says is really interested, but we knowthis will not go in. Even so. That's like the the Sales Indusia that you areto develop right as an entrepreneur, irrespective of what your title role orfunction is right. So that's slick the Corot sane conversation, the negativeconversation on that, if not so positive conversation you to look at itthat way that okay, you see a lot of people will tell you a lot of thingsright like the question is which conversation is worth my time. You haveto look at it as a resoce right, so that's what a sales function as okay. Ican do twenty conversation as in a day Max which twenty Argos, I can wonderwhere it, which one are those so that's the intelligence that you have todevelop, and that happens with experience. You can't read that in abook you can't do that and you can't prepare for it. You just have to do itright and then you have to like look at rein, the negative conversation, atleast that's how I understand this is just my opinion. The tactics that at least works for meis that I look at it as recruitment so like what, if I have to recruit thisindividual to me, he's really negative about liking. Now what we are doing,how can I recruit this? Individual and recruitment does not end in thisconversation. Then you have to work with this Indo. Then you have to makethem productive. Then you have to make them. You know art to the Vision Right,so you have to you can't just make you know bluff it. You can just take it.You have to actually think it through. So that's like the tactic that I haveused, which works for me that, like it, helps streamline the mental model of inpracticality and how important and critical this mental model is wow see every onderon right like, and Ithis is what I prenominal believe in every entrepreneur has a bit ofarrogans and I use the word arrogans in a very particular contact right. Whatare you saying, you're saying these six people right back? What right or sixpeople will change health care all over the world? That's a of GAM, no matterhow you want to package, it that's arrogant, but that's part of every. Youknow ten dream, every vision right and you have to know a now. You have to usethat Augience, it's a it's a capital right. You have to use that veryintelligently, because that can you know rap people your the wrong way andthen her there out have to use it very intelligently. So you don't need to youknow taking somebody a era. This is really bad and what not and a note okaygood got it digested will alter it or will ignore it, ignore it perfectly andI ignore it right and then move forward. It's your own conviction that you haveto move where you take forward. So so, like the you, that's the most importantmat that has to happen and that's the mental models. So I think too manypeople just automatically ignore it. Okay, I mean two or three and then twoor three years later Co. Gosh, remember you know after they spent eitherseveral hundred thousand millions of dollars or just a lot of pain, stakingtime and effort rights. It's either time or money or energy in this onesided very narrower vision or path that it had to go and just ignoring all ofthat and end up finding out the O, the wrongway and a lot of times when they start to have that epiphany and go gosh.Maybe that guy was on to something it's too late. They don't have any moremoney, they've burned all their investment opportunity, they don't haveany more paying customers or whatever. That looks like, and now the company isgoing under and to me that is really related to you know where you've gotthis failure rate of ninety five percent of innovations that are broughtto market fail. It's not because they have bad technology. It's because ofthis whole labyrinth of this commercialization process and having te the science, the art, the mental model, if you will to be able tonavigate that labyrinth and find out your path, and I love what you'resaying is that, along that way, really being able to intelligently determinewhat conversations are worth it w? What... is worth it? And what do youdo with that? Yeah see I by no means right, like anexpert on innovation, so I just know it was like it don't know it's like it's. I I, but Ithink right like and well. I've talked other founder. Other company is red,like a WHO have helped, as fighting were, helped us understand and developthese inside right yeah. What I've seen is that you will always miss out onthings right. You will always make mistakes, that's part of the game right.So there will be a time when you are like or no now. What do I do right. Soall of that is there. Yes, you can change the proportion of it that Ithink that's what you are saying right. You can change the proportion of it bychanging certain processes and, like you know, you're more individually, anorganization ally right like by incorporating feed back in a moreconstructive way and what not more continuous way that making continuousfeedback loops part of Your Business Strategy. Yeah Sansai, I think that'slike an executing that is more difficult than just thinking about itright so like because you're all human, it's difficult to say, O ove someonewho your babies, ugly, okay, like good luck now on like taking these forward,so that's kind of where it is. I still think at least for us rat, likeI don't know about oere for us, it's not a perfect process right. It's not a perfect process byany I've interviewed hundreds of people on this show over the last three years.I've not come across one that had a perfect process. It's a double, let's sort right, an youcan't take our feed back. You need to have been a stick to your conviction,but you also have to evolve so like in a balance, and I think that's for everyindividual and individual business to this pit so yeah. So this has been aphenomenal conversation. I could just talk to you for hours and hours and wecould just banter and go back and forth about these issues and these challengesand how to solve them and what works and what does it, but we are going tohave to wrap up here. Is there anything else that you want to share with ouraudience and then also? How can folks get a hold of you at the end of theshow? Okay, there's really a couple of things right, like really very quick, acouple of things I think we've taken enough about the mission I justretreate that right like when I unfortunately right when you are apatient, you don't have any leverage right likethe in in any. If you go and buy like you know, an egg right like from OleGroupie. Does a next from our belly verses like Eton? Now you have leverageright. You can Nigga here, there's a barter going on and you're, not inchange that you don't you're, not a customer, any more right like you areactually at the mercy of health care to you know, get better, that's actuallywhat it is for most people. The owners is on the community rightand that community is in a wait as a community's health care and regulatorsand Egomen, and everyone right all these take holders to make thattransaction a bit more human right. So that's what you are! That's! What Royceis trying to enable at scale right, that's what we see technology can do.Can we make it just better? Can you just you know avoid that ten thingsthat will be tried and tested and just give this patient mortal work for them?THAT'S THE TECHNOLOGY! THAT'S THE IMPACT! That's what we are trying toenable here right, just make it more human- and I have it tomorrow, so for me, I doyce will not be able todo this alone right like, and so we have no O for partners. Players stakeholders. Anybody who wants to, like you know, life sciences, health systemsright pairs, any individuals there, that's how we work right. We love totalk to people figure out how we can packages and make you know, take itforward and that's the the you know like it's that mission, vision,alignment and I'm always looking for the community to regular teach me andthen take a soi that one second is and more tallic. We are always recruitingyou're, always growing your always partner, ing or, like you know, anyindote want to contribute towards this direction. Please talk to us, even ifit is not drays right, a these other people that we know and we can justmake this go for. So that's like my...

...lets a perspective and just just wantto work with more and more good people to make the mission of a yeah yeah.That's great awesome. So how can folks get a hold of you if they can expectwith you to be a part of that? So my first name, my or may you are at dryslabs com, which is the website right. That's my email, you can send it to medirectly and I'll. You know send it to other people, I'm on link an by yoursex in a yeah fin red an I a tritling happy to talk and take it from there.Thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a very, very valuableconversation. No thanks a lot for having me. I really really mean it.It's the extent what I felt for s that you have seen. You know the Meta ofthese, like you know situations they want, and it's not obvious right likewe can just talk about this. It's not obvious when you are in the mix ofthings right. I re I'm pretty sure it happens to me. We came doing this everyday right, like I'm, missing that, so they have an external voice that canjust have by the way of you you're not doing a so you know the a the theory ofit. What is at TICTAC detail? So, I think, like I hope you, you know,connect and touch as many entrepreneurs as possible and later they help themdeviling, that's what you are doing, that is my mission, is to see that five percent successrate move drastically over the next few years. I thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening. I knowyou're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market, and Ivalue your time and attention to get the latest episodes on your mobiledevice automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast tap likeapple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening, and Iappreciate every one who shares the show with friends and colleagues, seeyou on the next episode of Health, innovators, T.

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