Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 114 · 3 months ago

From ‘oh, CRAP’ to ‘oh yeah, baby’ w/ Marina & Eugene Borukhovich


Healthcare is notoriously slow to move or change. That’s not news, it’s fact. And sometimes we have ‘solutions’ that might not be ideal, or even utilized because, well, they’re not all that effective.

But what if you could reimagine that solution? Or take a different approach to getting the solution out to those who need it? That could be exactly what the “doctor ordered.”

While enduring a health crisis of her own, Marina Borukhovich recognized a need in the healthcare market with a current solution that wasn’t very effective.

Marina and her husband Eugene were able to reimagine a traditional - and often underutilized health coaching solution and, with the help of an unplanned pandemic, bring it into the 21st century.

I was thrilled when Marina and Eugene agreed to sit down and talk about what steps they took, and challenges they faced, while trying to solve an unmet need in healthcare - and succeeding.

Here are the show highlights:

  • When (and how) to take advantage of shifting mindsets (9:47)
  • Understanding that your role is valuable (14:49)
  • It pays to pay attention to the ‘Oh, CRAP!’ moments (12:34)
  • Building a (virtual) company culture (22:16)
  • Nurturing a “gig” economy (26:58)
  • The best advice is filtered advice (34:52) 

Guest Bio

Marina Borukhovich is founder and CEO at YourCoach Health.

She began her career as a developer at Lockheed Martin, followed by several entrepreneurial ventures.

After moving to Amsterdam, Marina was diagnosed with cancer. That battle helped fuel a passion for helping others.

If you’d like to get in touch with Marina, you can reach out to her @YourCoachHealth on all social platforms or via email at

Eugene Borukhovich is co-founder and COO at YourCoach Health and founder of Initium Impact Ventures.

He’s a career intra and entrepreneur, executive, venture builder, and speaker & board advisor focused on digital health.

If you’d like to reach out to Eugene, you can reach him @YourCoachHealth on all social platforms, via email at, or on twitter at @HealthEugene.

You're listening to health innovators, a podcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adoptors who are shaping the future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back to the show health innovators. On today's episode I'm sitting down with two special guests, Marina Berkovitch, as well as Eugene Burke of Itch. Marina is the founder and CEO of your coach health as and Eugene is the CO founder and CEO. Welcome to the show. Great to be here. I think that's our roxy good to be here. So, for our audience who maybe aren't familiar with your company or your story, just start off and tell us a little bit about your background and kind of how you ended up to innovating coaching. I guess I should start with a start. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So my background. I was a developer of my former life. I work for blogging Martin many, many years ago, had a couple of entrepreneurial ventures. We moved to Amsterdam as expats to that ten years ago and while liveing in Amsterdam I was diagnosed with breast cancer. So this was seven years ago now, and in my journey back to health. After the doctors were done with me, sec to me and chemotherapy and radiation and a lot of reconstructive surgery, I felt broken because I wasn't who I was for the surgery and not who everybody expected me to be. I was completely different, because an event like that really changes you, and in search to hack my own body and to see what fils right for me at the moment, I discovered health coaching. I became a health coach myself and while I started working with my clients, and that's really that. That was my goal. I wanted to learn for myself and then I wanted to have a few clients and to just share the knowledge that I have. There's this guy who can never leave good enough alone and he's like, well, you can't coach with pen and paper. So we started looking at practice management solutions and nothing was working for what it is that I wanted to do. So if you can find something, you build it right. That's what you do. So we reached out to another co founder of ours, Dan who's also a friend, and we started building this and I called it this toy for me right, and it really would. That's what it was in the beginning. As a matter of fact, your coach, dot health was a domain were registered originally for marina's practice, her own practice, and then as we kind of realize that there's so much more to it, but you know, carry on. Yeah, we thought it was going to be really cute, like your health coach, right, so, your coach do health. That dot health domains became available at that time. So we thought that was going to be really great. So we built this practice management and then started talking to people that I graduated coaching school with and people just wanted to start using it. So it became a practice for health and wellness coaches, a platform for health and want one less coaches to manage their practice, which at the heart of it, it's still is. So right now there's over twenty two hundred people on the platform and there work just coaches, yes, animal people. There's many more people. There's thousands, like tens of thousands of people, of clients. There's over twenty two hundred posse who are working with their own clients and what we do, and this is how we started the health coaching revolution, where spearheading the health coaching revolution is the coaches were practicing on our platform with their own clients. We match them to clients who are looking for health coaches. In these are clients, members or talent of companies, of our industry partners that we work with, and that way we, I mean our mission, the mission of the company, is to bring health coaching to the projected eight and a half film billion people worldwide by twenty thirty. I think this is the longest I've spoken and you've been quiet. Yes, you can. You can't tell that I'm you know, I feel it. I'll give them much shorter background. Just you know, I ...

...think part of this is a it was just honestly an honor to join my wife and build this together. And so it was. It was somewhat of a tough decision to leave a big corporate executive role. Comfortable, really comfortable. Yeah, it was, you know, easy. You know, mine is the politics. But Anyway, background wise, I kind of grew up in healthcare, health tech, about twenty years, farmacy, benefit management and life sciences consulting and then my own companies in between, and then decided, you know, I think everybody knew she was my boss and now it was official, starting January two thousand and twenty, as I joined marina and building this. So I love it sitting here together just two years later now the HIP, but I don't know, we're okay. So I'm curious. Health coaching has been around for a long time. So you know, you kind of shared your personal journey, but what do you think is or was happening in the market place that really you know, what was the unmet need that you were solving for that really kind of helped you, you know, have some kind of viability with this business model? I think people are just frustrated and you know, we mentioned that there's a lot of coaches on a platform, but there were just people, regular clients, regular consumers. There were downloading the platform and a regular basis and we started putting this little questionnaire together right because we wanted to understand who these people were and the answers that we were getting. We could tell how desperate people were and there were so desperate for a connection and for answers and they just weren't getting that from their medical professionals. Maybe just because these people just don't have enough time. You know, doctors are overwhelmed. They just have maybe ten or fifteen minutes. Has Done with each patient? Nurses are overwhelmed and there's actually a lot of nurses are going into health coaching because now they're not doing what they set out to do. Their doing a lot of admin work right, because they're every so short staff. So people were just really, really frustrated and desperate and we just felt that we needed to help with this. And you know, health coaching, you know, you justen like to say that it's been around for twenty years, but now is the profession is being legitimized. I think it's always been legitimate, but now it's being recognized. Right. Sorry, Yep, what's the distinction between being like legitimate and recognized? If you think that there's kind of just a new value for health coaches that maybe we didn't have in the past? Yeah, you know, I think there's a combination of things. Right. Again, I always kind of refer to that. Many People Think About Health coaching is Cukulu do science, right, but you know, a good health coach is train and motivational, interviewing in reflection techniques. Right. I while I took kind of the beginner course myself just to understand. I mean as a CEO and Co founder, I need to know something about health coaching. One would think, and my realization was after the nine week kind of the introductory quests, was it was non clinical psychotherapist. Right. That's kind of how I describe it in two words. But ultimately the health coach today is somebody who can help you understand kind of put together and help you achieve your goals. Right. And to add to all of the this is there was also a national board of Health and Wellness coaching that was set up in two thousand and twelve and I think they've done an amazing job now working with the AMA and the Va. And so actually, in two thousand and nineteen, as I was leaving the life sciences company I was with both Ama and the National Board, announced that there were level three CPT codes out for testing in the Va. And so I think the combination of again, real great schools out there, plus the national board, plus the recognition...

...of the Ama now in the last three years, three, four five years brought this amazing talent pool to health and care industry. And not to mention that the health coach is now being recognized as an integral member of the health and care team. So working together what they with the health team, right. So there's just so much that a health coach brings into the picture and I think it's finally being recognized. Well, it's definitely find a recognized. Yeah, absolutely a lot more respect and appreciation or value for their role and being a plip, playing a critical role in the care team. I can see that. I mean, don't you know, like, sorry, just what you can brought up before the Cuckooo to science. There's still a lot of that. You know, there's a lot of people who are peddling vitamins or oils and they're calling selves themselves health coaches and they go through one day training and they have a shape that you lose like twenty pounds with and their health coach right. So it is a lot of responsibility, especially seeing how people want to believe everything and it just looking for solution to help them. There's a lot of responsibility and what we do to only match clients with with legitimized coaches, right, with those who went to a proper school, those who have real know how on how to lead their clients. So there's a lot that goes into it. There distinction does need to be made. Are you doing some of that wetting? As as coaches are being integrated and having access to your platform. Absolutely so, besides the qualification, the certifications that they upload, that's just one part of it. There's a we have algorithms that analyze real world data. So it's based on the clients goals that they reach or they may not reach. Right. It's based on what kind of coaching the coach does. What if they're within their scope of practice. Right. So, while they can practice with their own clients and that's completely up to them, that's great. They can do whatever they want with their own clients, but for us to match them, they absolutely need to be validated by us. Okay, that makes sense. So so how has covid impacted Your Business? So you talked about launching in two thousand and twenty. Tell us about that ride. So, first of all, we decided to incorporate the company in January two thousand and twenty. Is your coach health when we were funding this kind of ourselves, you know, for about a year or so and then, of course, you know, just started a fundraising and then covid hit right and thanks came to somewhat of a halt starting march in us. So that was crazy time, but little. It's a little unfair to us, you know, because we had a little bit of an unfair advantage with what we were building, because all of a sudden, something that we believed and wholeheartedly, other people started to believe in noheartedly as well. You know, the whole idea preventative care and virtual care. Right, people just became more and more open to it. So while we had that Oh crap moment in the beginning, you know, with everybody else, it actually turned out to be a blessing for us because, I mean, that's probably one good thing that came out of Covid, you know, that work that we do and the platform that would put together as being recognized absolutely. I mean I think that there's so many entrepreneurs like yourself that have been able to benefit from some of the mindset shifts and even behavioral shifts that have taken place with covid. We've kind of reimagined what's possible and and there's people like you that have been able to ride the wave, and you should. Don't don't get US wrong, you know, as far as the development like, we had some moments as well, right, because we developed a mobile APP, because everybody was always under move. All of a sudden we had to create a web application because now everybody was home in front of their computers. So we started grambling a little bit as well. Right. So, I mean, you know, being an entrepreneur like it's not. It's funny because people think like, you know, if you have if you succeed and you raise...

...enough money and then you sell or you go public, right, it's like, oh, great, like they did. Oh No, you know how it is. It's so much hard work. It's all of it. You know, it's a lot of these ocrap moments and every hundred moment is like, Oh yeah, you know, like something creat just happened. Right. So it's a lot of hard work. You know what one just a quick add on, and this is I think it was unity. At start of health set something like the ten years happen in ten days, right, and so it really spareheaded the whole digital health. I'll say, what used to be almost like a movement with some capital going in to really the front lines of it. And again we're you know, we took a you know, advantage of that with for the goal for others. Right. So, yeah, so I love that. You were just really candid into transparency, transparent about the reality of entrepreneurship, right, because we hear mostly of the stories that you just kind of highlighted, of but all the wins, all the moves, and it makes you see, it makes it seem like, Oh man, I'm just not lucky like them, or I'm just I just don't have what it takes like they did, because they just made like these ten decisions and it all aligned and and now they're, you know, a billionaire. And and so when you think about those ocrap moments or when you think about those like wow, surprise, good moments, share story with our audience. What was one of those like darkest oak crap moments, and then highlight what were some of those other moments that were just like surprising wins for you? Yeah, I mean the darkest moment, if you know it's probably being an entrepreneur, just because it you know, I became an entrepreneur in my s, like in my early S, right. So you know, I'll refer to the year two thousand and nineteen. My Kids said that's that's the year. They'll tell you all I gave up parenting, right. So we were like sixteen and eight out couch. Yeah, but they're like, you know, you gave a parents. I mean, you know I joke, right, but you know, the kids are very supportive, but there's a lot of things that you have to give up, you know, especially being a woman, just because I had more responsibilities. It's not like I now didn't need to do laundry, it's not like I didn't have to cook dinner, it's not like I didn't have to go to school and spend time with my kids. Right, like, there's so much that needs to be done and on top of it, you add a team to you. You also need to nurture that team, right, like you need this company is a third baby, right. So, I mean the dark moment for me, I think, was not I felt like I was failing in everything. I felt like I was failing at home, I felt like I was sailing in my business. My mom became very sick, you know, she was diagnosed with stomach cancer during this time, you know, and I felt like I was failing as a daughter as well. Like it was so that that was a dark moment and I just had to take a step back and to reevaluate everything and to say this is okay. I'm okay, everybody's going through this and just take it one step at a time. So I know I brought some personal stuff into it, but there's you know, there's no clear working home lines, right and yeah, it's just blurred. It's it's one another thing that covid has taught us. Right, there's no clear working home lines. Everything is blurred. But you know, for me, like I'm very lucky that I have support of Uji not only as my husband but also is my cofounder, and he is there during the dark time saying you need to celebrate this, you did this, you build this, you know, and it's really amazing, right, because it's really easy to go to the time. I also picked up the washing dishes as a hobby, spoiler Bush. So by washing dishes it's loading the Dishwasher, which I'm grateful for him, absolutely grateful for you know. I. Yeah, I think it's great that you shared that because I think so many women leaders, as well as female entrepreneurs, really can I can identify with that and have similar struggles with kind...

...of second guessing and question our identity and all of the different roles that we play and, you know, feeling like a failure and and I think Eugene, you know, Kudos to you for being able to be there and be that champion, be that biggest fan, to remind her that, you know, it's good enough or it's great, because sometimes we just beat ourselves up because we want to be superwoman and all fasts of our life and we can't. We want it all right, and they're actually like I just kind of remembering back actually in those other dark moments on the funding right. You know, we had a lead, we had this, we had that coming together and then started falling apart. And I actually remember some of the pitches that we did together to to BEC's and there were, you know, middle aged men on the other side of the zoom window. And even though she's the founder, she it's our storage, her mission, it's her vision. The questions were obviously coming to me as I was talking, as I sitting there, and and we would literally, we both would shut down and say nope, Nope, not who we want to build this with. Right and and those are dark moments as well. Right as I'm sitting and after you've seen some of this, right, I'm sitting there and I'm talking, and but Eugene you know, and he's like rain a discovered this point right, like we're okay for a good so we actually wrapped up some of these calls and we said very quickly and we're very lucky to be surrect. You know, the investors that we have that believe in us. We're very lucky because there are two champions and true believers, and I mean I do consider us very lucky in that. Like you know, building a business is a lot of hard work, but there is some luck and with this would definitely have had some luck. I wishould I we tad hurts and I've heard that story, actually not super often, but I've heard that story a couple of different times, where you've got a female founder and a male co founder, whether you're married or not, and in that fundraising journey have experienced that. And in again, you know, the man's responsibility is to go. I don't know. What do you think? I don't know. What do you think? Right, otherwise you're going to be in the dog house later. Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy. I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities. Learn more at legacy DNACOM backslash kit. Those stories that have been on the show have really shared. Very similar to what you're saying, is that, you know, the the male in the dynamic really advocated for the female and made those hard decisions about you know, I'm not going to take your ten million because this is not going to be a good partnership for us. You know, we have to be have respect for both people, both sexes that are, you know, leading the company. Yeah, and I mean I don't like to lean into the female and a male dominated industry narrative. I really don't like to lean into that because I believe I can stand the own two feet, but it just the realities of what we do, you know,...

...and I am I'm a strong woman, you know, I've had a lot of life experience behind me. But I'm just thinking about this younger entrepreneurs for coming onto the scene and it's devastating when something like that happens, right, it just likes sets you back so much and maybe they don't have somebody that says this is not the right way, right and they think that this is okay and this is how things should be going and it's really discouraging, right. So yeah, so it's kind of like my platform a little bit. She also have about the happy moment, know, the weird some of the wow moments, like wow, I never thought that was going to happen. Honestly, I'll all of this. Yeah, first of all, this no les, found and cofounder. We've been married more than half of our lives, right, so in total. So we've been you know, I think for for us, talent and people that surround you and the happy moments when you know we have an awesome conversation and we're like, you know what, this would be the awesome person to join the team. And they say yes and they believe in the mission and, you know, they get excited and they work hard with us. Right. I think that's kind of one of the building a team. We know we both loved building team. So, I mean it's not easy to find if I mean it's not hard to find developers, right, like there's good people everywhere, but it's really her find talent that truly wants to build a business with you and believes and what it is that you're doing. Sometimes, like I have to tell my operations, like director of operations, like she'll call me at eleven o'clock at night and like go to sleep, don't this is okay, we'll be okay in the morning, you know, because she's so she's excited about something or she's worried about something that's happening. Right. So I think our biggest accomplishment, I mean every so our team is worldwide. Right, we're in three continents, where where, everywhere. When I think we're in nine different time zones, which is insane. Right, like when you send a slack messagings like are you sure you're sending it tonight? Right, right, exactly. Yeah, we get that all the time. And every Friday, like without fail, everybody is on the same zoom on video because we want to connect, to see your kids, we want to see your new house, like we want to talk about everything, right, and that is probably my biggest accomplishment in this business, is that these people, they travel to each other's well places where they live. They want to meet each other. They couldnnect with each other and know what's going on in each other's lives right and together, like none of them just sit there and do the job that they were hired to do. Were brainstorm all the time. They're truly part of this family, though, this your coach family, and you know, I know I speak in this like I'm just so excited about this right, like this is this truly just lights me up. You know, every time we bring somebody new on board, like we literally didn't happy dance like this is embarrassing to it a bit like we did a happy brought a you personal board. So excited about you know, the after reviewing about to undred the CVS resumes. Yeah, right, it's a big deal. Yeah, yeah, you're putting a lot of trust and a lot of confidence in the future of Your Business and in every person that you hire. Yeah, I think what you're touching on is an issue that I think a lot of business leaders, like in more established businesses that maybe weren't virtual first companies, are really really struggling with. There was kind of a practices that they put in place to build and sustain a culture within the facetoface environment and as they were kind of thrusted into the virtual world with covid and maybe this hybrid coat of model going forward, they're like, how do you even build a culture? How do you create that community and and so it's great for that to be one of your I...

...mean it is accomplishment because it's something that a lot of established, long term successful leaders are really struggling with trying to figure out. Yeah, it's hard, it's a lot of work. You know, we constant brainstorm of what it is that we can do for the team. Like we have events all the time and some of them are educationalism, some of them are just pure fun and just to get to know each other. But yeah, you know, it's it's that work life balance. They spend more time talking to all of us and they spend time with their families. Right. Just need to would just have a brought the Llama to the zoom right, Llama. We haven't done that yet. That's been like my favorite thing to do, that I've been wanting to do. So I think that that we'd just spoiled it if the team watches till you have to come up with another animal, any other like really wow, Aha moment that you want to share. Maybe something from you, Eugene. You know, I I think as an entrepreneur, you always looking for that. Well, first of all, I think you know there's the entrepreneur to the business fit, right, like how does entrepreneur fit to particular business? And I think that was kind of one of those things were like it was just natural right. And I think given what Marina said in the beginning and the story, and I think that's kind of the the one, the one component of this. The second piece that always get excited is, you know, seeing some of these messages from the coaches coming back and saying, wow, this is amazing. I work with it when my client. I'm in this with you guys for a long hole. You know, seeing this feedback that you know that the the company was built and it's and it's helping people. So that's kind of on the coaches side. And then figuring out that market fit. You know this, this is not actually, I think, depending on what this when this air's probably the first one. But we just signed up for a big partner, you know, multiyear deal where we'll be powering up coaching for a company. And you know, when you find that kind of market fit right after looking at it, what does it take? How does it work right? And all of this with you know, we are Health Coaching Company, so we do try to sleep well, but let's face it, you know there are you know, some inside. Yeah, we do the sleepover, but it's that holy crap, this this will work. The big, big, big vision that we had when we started it is this will work right. So I think you know, again, I know I'm talking a little bit kind of around it is because it's not an officially announced yet, but but wanted to say some some of that. Yah, yeah, it's it's really exciting moments around here right now, you know, because we're we get to do what we set out to do and other c value and what and what we saw value one. I am I have one one more quick one. I think our our daughters watching us on this entrepreneurial journey and participating right and joining. You know, our older one came up with one of the features at one point. Our younger one, in the early days, was running our social media account. You know, that's a little secret that we're revealing now. So you know those things. It's like a family thing and they do in their own thing, but it's part of it. And actually watching this and seeing the girls grow up and with entrepreneurial spirit, which I think is going to be the future anyway across the world. Yeah, our older daughter, she is in her second year of university right now and she's not talking about getting a job, she's talking about what she wants to do, and what she wants to do is she has an idea of a company that she wants to run and if she needs to get a job, you know, right after school, that's going to be a means to an end. But she knows what it is that she wants to do and see me it's just it's such an exciting moment as a parent to see your child blossom right and to believe in...

...something like that. So I'm just excited that we get to show them that it's possible. That's awesome. That's so wonderful. So you kind of touched on this a little bit, but you know, one of the things that I think is so fascinating about your business model is this network effect, right. So you don't see as many network effect platform businesses and healthcare that you do in other industries, and we're starting to scratch the surface more in healthcare and just the amplification of that. To me, that is certainly a unbelievable exit strategy one day, because the valuation of a company that is a network platform is just, you know, exponentially higher. So that, you know, is definitely a good thing going for you. But it's also a very complex business model, right. What you've got to have enough of the all the players involved to meet the need, right, thinking air B and be thinking uber all of the different fast people that are involved. So just talk a little bit about what it's been like building that business model, that complex business model, and and where do you see that going in the future? Yeah, so absolutely the double sided marketplace, which on one side we are on the other one we're not, but the principles are there. You know, we've been lucky enough, as marine to mention investors, see the bigger vision and we've very much focused that first year and a half on supply side and making sure that the coaches are absolutely happy. That doesn't mean that we're going to stop that. I could be yea. Yeah, continuously focus and to focusing on the happiness of the coach and their individual clients. Right. We now have enough of that network effect and enough of, I'll say, demand side interest right really start turning that fly wheel of health coaching on right and and that's where where we're at. Have we figured out truly the you know, all the margins, the full business model? Now where we're experiment I think, a Marino alloted to. You know, we found that, you know, individual consumers were downloading. Now, we're not trying to compete with Director Consumer Models and health coaching, but we didn't want to turn it away and we got some interesting insights from, you know, the thousands of users that actually downloaded, submitted. We learning, were learning, learning, yeah, we you know. But ultimately kind of the model on, on this double sided marketplace, we're ultimately offering health coaching services. Right and the way we started describing this. We're really building an operating system for behavior change that powered by this GIG economy of tech enabled coaches. Right. Actually, one of our investors coldest like an Intel inside for health coaching, depending on your reference. Yeah, would reference their Intel in side or like Truth Bill for Health coaching. Right, so depending, you know. So for me intellen side makes total sense, but you know, younger generation I don't even know what that is. So right. Yeah, I mean we're constant learning. We haven't figured it out yet, but there's definitely the demand. The demand is there now for this, for this GIG economy that we've been nurturing and we continue to nurture, because not only do the coaches need to be happy, their clients need to be happy, right, because, yeah, they're using the platform, the coaches, and not using the platform. And then we need to make sure our clients are happy, right, the ones that we match, and we need to make sure the companies of these clients are happy as well. So there's a lot, a lot of players that we need to make happy the end of yeah. So, absolutely, but somewhere's every points will be there. Yeah, exactly, you know, but somewhere. As a young startup, we do need to prioritize. And again, right, I think you know, as we'll look at, let's say,...

...the pipeline, right, I mean this is an entrepreneur facing show. Right. You know, as we look at the pipeline, we want to work with awesome people, right, the champions that can believe in us, that can help us mold the proposition. We look in and they understand the startup struggles, right. They understand what it's like to start up. They've been a startup right recently. So they understand and they want to work with you, they want to help you, right, because we have a lot of conversations where people who have been where we are not too long ago, but they're already like, okay, you know, like talk to me when you're when you have this in this in this data point, right, which is okay, we'll get there, right, yeah, but then probably won't be talking to you at that point. Right. So, right, right, right. And I actually just to quickly add to this. We've had conversations with prospects that were kind of like not not nothing, not feeling it not worth it, at least at this point. From Energy Perspective and all of that. So it's also really hard because there's a lot of things, I mean, we have in bounds all the time, right, and some of them sometimes it's an exciting proposition that could be a lot quicker to that end result, you know, but it's not where our hearts are right. So it's always that challenge of do we go where the quickest result is or do we stay true to our course? So so far we're definitely staying true to our course. We have our mission, we know what we want to do. But as an entrepreneur, it's hard, you know. It's that it's so important, you know, to be anchored in your to be so clear on your vision, in your mission, and it be anchored with that. And it sounds a little bit cliche because of course every business should, but I think when you're a startup company, you've got employees, you've got investors, you've got customers, you've got everyone that's wanting to pull you in a different direction. And how do you know kind of what you're describing like? How do you know which one's directions are? Like? Really, this is great feedback. We should heed this and we should move and which one is like no, no, no, that's taken us off course and that value, that that vision and mission becomes the Lens for helping making all of those decisions. Otherwise you will go yeah, okay, we're making money, but this is not the company that I set out to build. What happened here exactly? Yeah, sometimes it's not just about making money. Sometimes, and right for us, it's that making an impact right, it will make would you want to make money along the way, but we definitely want to make it right. Yeah, maybe I'll use one example that we started getting a lot of inbound in and again, as a young company, in as somebody who's been in a big farmer company, it was one of those things like do entertain because the sales cycles are so long righte the rigidity. We had a lot of inbound from farmer companies looking at Hey, can we incorporate a health coach into clinical trials? Is an example. Or patient support program and let's start with the clinical trials, right, knowing how difficult it is for patients to find clinical trials, the matching right coming from that industry, but also the same time, knowing how difficult it is to work with farmer companies because of the regulated environment. The easy thing for us would have been said, let's walk away, right, because it's just too far and too we did decide to spend, you know, again smaller percentage of our time exploring this, like is a health coach and intervention? How does a health coach work with a Pi? And again, back to the mission, of can we get eight and a half billion people, which many of them do participate in clinical trials, as an example, access to a health coach understanding their goals during this clinical trial? How difficult it is, maybe even four caregivers of Clinton of the patients. So again we need to make choices and filter some of this inbound. But backtied to the mission, right, and to us that made sense, as far as the mission is concerned, to...

...explore. Yeah, so it's we wrap up here. What advice do you have for your fellow entrepreneurs that are in the market place? Maybe they're a little bit behind you, maybe they're right where you are, maybe they're even a little further ahead. What advice do you have for them? I think for me it's a little bit of what we just talked about. Right, everybody has advice, everybody has opinions, but you need to stay true to what you want to do. Right. This is you had a vision when you started this. You know what you want to do. Not to say that you shouldn't listen to advice. There's a lot of great advice out there, but definitely filter it and just because somebody says you should go in this direction, don't run in that direction. You know, take a step back, see what it is what gets you out of bed in the morning. Right, like. There's a lot of exciting opportunities out there, but not necessarily what you want to do with what you started. So right, right, you know mine. I would also say kind of in my previous life and to this still this day, I make time for the certaendipityles with entrepreneurs. You know, my previous job was to work with entrepreneurs around the world. I see so many entrepreneurs trying to figure things out on their own, reinventing the wheel on evidence as an example, and to me it's just everybody knows people right, like, if you're stumbling on something, just don't be afraid to ask right it really. I mean people have solved so many different from things around everything from you know, operational sides of things, are evidence based things, going to market things. Just talk to other people, don't be shy. Hell, and people want to hold health. Yeah, it feels good to help. It really does. Absolutely and you know, I think that's a great, great, great wisdom and great advice, because sometimes we feel like we have to have it all put together and we can't really be transparent about some of those answers that we don't have or we're unsure about and really ask for help. It's a great, great reminder and highly recommend to work with their significant other who is a health code. So it works about. Yeah, so how to fuck get a hold of you if they want to follow up with you after the show? So where your coach health? On all the socials? At your coach health. You can email me at Marina, at your Coachel. He's Eugene a your coach health, and then he's health hugene as some health eugene on twitter. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. It was so much it was so much fun. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate every one who shared the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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