Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 83 · 8 months ago

Pivoting your way to profit w/ Lydia Zeller


Innovation in healthcare goes far beyond brick-and-mortar interactions - we’re in the digital age, and that means digital solutions are carving out their space.

And when you pair the intelligence of digital technology with a human touch, the opportunity to revolutionize how your consumers interact with your product skyrockets.

Lydia Zeller, CEO at Kiio, pursued the idea of being a true partner with their B2B members and then doubled down on gathering hard ROI and delivering tangible outcomes. 

From product design and development to funding and all the way through commercialization, Kiio has perfected their secret sauce - and are ready to revolutionize musculoskeletal care.

In this episode, Lydia shares some of the strategies and insights her company is using to turn the world of digital innovation on its side - you don’t want to miss this one!

Here are the show highlights:

This simple understanding can yield big success (7:02)

Capabilities that are critical to driving engagement (9:10)

Hard ROI and how it creates a competitive advantage (15:10)

Why it’s important to know your next move when exploring contracts (22:58)

Whether you’re funding evidence or development, this investment is necessary (24:12)

Turn customers into fanatics to successfully build, grow, and scale your business (31:42)

Guest Bio

Lydia Zeller is CEO at Kiio, a digital therapeutic company focused on changing the approach to musculoskeletal (MSK) care.

A champion for driving healthcare innovation, Lydia has been involved in every facet of Kiio’s product and business development.

Her passion for delivering impactful results helped lead the charge for the company’s pivot into the digital musculoskeletal therapeutic market.

Lydia received her BA and Executive MBA specializing in Strategic Management from the University of Wisconsin - Madison

If you’d like to get in touch with Lydia after the show, feel free to reach out to her via her website or emai l her at 

You're listening to health innovators, apodcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adopters who are shapingthe future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back healthinnovators. On today's episode I am sitting down with Lydia Zeller, who'sthe president and CEO of Keio. Welcome to the show, Lydia. Hello, Dr Roxy, a pleasure. Thank you. I am so excited tohave this conversation with you today. Before we get started into the details ofyour commercialization journey, maybe just give our listeners and viewers a little bit ofinformation about your background and what you've been innovating these days. Fantastic Ko isa digital therapeutic company providing next generation musculoskeletal care. So we have an ondemand digital first solution that guides individuals through a very personalized, evidence based CAREprogram specific to their type of pain, including exercise, education, digital supportand the ability to interact one on one with a human being. One keydifferentiator for Kyo is that we are using software to deliver care. So thisis not virtualization of wonder one clinical care, but really leveraging the power of technologyto provide media on demand accessible care. We sell be to be to healthinsurance companies and large employers and then our solution is made available to theirmembership. And what about your background? Yeah, I have kind of aninteresting non standard career path. I began actually in a niche wealth management firmon the operation side out in the San Francisco area. Then, when mytwins were born, took a number, actually quite a few years out ofyou know, the Mars before standard career path. DID CONSULTING IN FEC regulatorymanagement. I began at KIO actually as a volunteer right after KIO was founded. Wow, thousand and twelve. Yeah, my husband's about a story of workingyour way up. Indeed. Well, I think it's an inspirational story.I'm just going to take it, take a step back for a secondand see. I think women sometimes and men who take time out of theirout of their career to raise kids maybe to do something a little bit different. While my kids were growing up and I we actually homeschooled them all theway until they began college and I so I did consulting during that period inSEC regulation. But I think we undervalue the skill sets that are developed inNon Standard Times during our lives. I think that as a as a leader, being really looking at people and seeing more than just a paper resume,understanding skills and then being able to provide that mentorship and opportunity to really recognizestar potential and nurture and develop that. I think that's something that all ofus, those leaders, need to pay a lot of attention to. Well, you know, it's really interesting. I'm that's it's not necessarily the thefocus or topic of our show, but I'm also professor of gender leadership andso I've studied and I teach a lot about what's happening in the workforce andwhat's happening with women in the workforce and kind of this gap that we havein the C suite with female leaders. And you know, one of thebiggest reasons why we have so few leaders at the top that are female isbecause a lot of women are stepping away...

...for a decade or maybe longer tobe able to be moms whether and not focus as much on their career,and then when they reconnect into the workforce, it's usually just really difficult to beable to work their ware up. So what an incredible and inspiring story. Yes, absolutely, tell us more. Absolutely, and I've certainly benefited fromfrom some tastic mentors during my career. So when I joined Keio I woremultiple hats in our early years, really working in almost all areas ofthe company. I believe I was employee number three. Maybe after my myvolunteering became, you know, sixty hours a week of volunteering. Hired andand again worked in multiple areas. I did most things other than, youknow, software development. Wound up in product and Kyo did a did avary stuff. Is really a different company today than we were when we started. So Kyo was founded on the premise of bringing evidence based and member centriccare to physical therapy, but developing a hardware sensor to very precisely quantified muscledeficit and then a content library of over one thousand eight hundred filly animated therapeuticexercises that a provider could tailor to the specific patient needs, deliver very personalizedhome exercise program to the mobile device of the patient get feedback back remotely.That original business plan was flawed from from the perspective that we were reducing topline revenue for our perspective clients. Yeah, which is just in the fee forservice business model. It just the economics were not there. So Iwas asked at the end of two thousand and sixteen, I was product strategyat that point, to take a look at our technology, to take alook at how where we felt healthcare is headed, what is really interesting andnew and care delivery models, how we can really leverage the best of technology, evidence based care, behavioral economics, consumer motivators, what consumers are wantingand really develop a product that that skates to where the pucket is headed.Yeah, the Genesis of our pivot into digital therapeutics and our shift in marketfocus to selling to the at risk entities, so payers. So how has thatpivot paid off in the last three to four years? It's been afantastic success. We've never looked back. So we launched with our first healthplan client at the beginning of two thousand and seventeen. Have added clients nationallysince then. We made an intentional we don't even operate in the in theoriginal business of yeah, it's as listeners will understand. As a small company, focus is is critical. You can't be doing too many different things.We still have the technology. It's the basis that are the foundation that ourdigital therapeutic was built off of. But right now we're not focusing on now. So when you kind of Look Back Act at your commercialization journey, maybebefore even after the pivot, you know what are some of the and Ithink you already touched on one, but what are some of the key decisionsthat you made that you think really made a difference in the success that you'vebeen able to achieve to date? Yes, absolutely well, it's this sounds sosimple, but when I have conversations with people founding companies sometimes you wonderwhether it's really been properly thought through and to be honest, I don't thinkwe properly thought that through in our original business premise. And really need tomake sure that you have spoken had multiple...

...times with multiple people in your inboth your both your client perspective, clients as well as perspective and users,if they're not the same as your clients. So really standing the pain points ofthe market that you want to serve, understanding how you're going to differentiate withinthat market, how you're going to, in the case of additional therapeutic,make sure that you're getting the end users to engage with you, becauseyou can have a wonderful product and if nobody uses it, it isn't goingto bring any value. Right. So truly understanding the market and all thestakeholders in the market, all of your users, and then, all sojust as importantly, making sure that you have aligned economic interests, because evenif you're developing a product that serves needs, people enjoy using etc. If you'renot aligning those economic interest and we all know them, aignment of economicinterest in healthcare is a pretty complex beast and not as easy to attain everyonemight think. Yep, yeah, you're right, even even the payment structure. So, for example, Keyo can invoice our clients directly, but wecan also build through the claim system using CPT codes, and that makes itso much easier, particularly for our employer clients. Yeah, yeah, soyou touched on something. I love to you to kind of just dig ina little bit deeper when you talked about, you know, the adoption of thetechnology. So I think you touched on something that's so important. Isthat really closing a sale right and getting a client to buy the solution isdefinitely not the endpoint. I think we know that, but it's also,in a lot of ways a beginning point as well. So do you haveany of those adoption strategies that maybe have worked really well for you guys orhow you have looked at that being a key ingredient to your commercial success?That's a fantastic point. After Roxy, absolutely and we've continued to learn andcontinue to improve in that area from the beginning. So I'll give you anexample. In our very first implementations, Kyo did not have the capabilities torun the awareness campaigns in the members of our clients. So or first helpclients, we relied on the plans themselves to run those campaigns. We quicklylearned that having those capabilities was critical to drag them engagement. Yeah, andand so. So Kyo runs those campaigns and we've attained really fantastic engagement.In an employer population we will capture between twenty and forty five percent of theaddressable population. In health population it's always lower, more like ten percent,primarily because health plans don't have as great contact information for their for their memberships, as as employers typically do. We always like to work synergistically together withour clients so that we are utilizing client specific changels, as well as email, direct mail potentially text, Yep on the Keyo side. And and youknow, it's it's how you craft the awareness campaign that really determines its success, and so we've continually over the years cap increase our capture rates. Lessonsfor a lot of that's the secret of a company, right. I meanyou talk about what's differentiation, what secret sauce, and and those campaigns aredefinitely play into that. We really learned that engagement doesn't begin I think thiswas maybe the most critical learning and it's a pretty simple one, but engagementdoesn't begin with the first time the member...

...uses our APP right. It beginswith the first time they learn about us and how that message is framed.What information is provided to the member? What are the reasons to believe?What's the fun is it? Is it a joyful message versus a scary message? Right? I mean we're in pain management, so you can craft amessage that shows people in pain reduced your pain or you can craft more joyfulmessage about hope and and empowerment, right, and they have a very different impact. So really thinking about engagement is as starting right at the beginning andmaking sure you're setting the tone that that that you want right from the beginning. Well, you guys have achieved so much success. You must have,and I love that you talked about how and transparently and candidly that you knowyou didn't have it all figured out in the beginning and like all of us, you know you're learning along the way and you know obviously you're following somebest practices right out of the gate, but then you're learning about maybe specificpatient populations are member populations within different health plans and being able to continue toshape that I mean because right now, I mean there's hundreds of thousands ofreally amazing technologies out there that are like dusty cobwebs right. So the engagementpieces such a critical component of the commercial success. So I won't ask youany more details so you don't have to disclose any more about your secret sauce. One thing that you just mentioned there, which is not only the continuing tolearn but that your strategy may be different in different populations. So wehad a wonderful success. Qures worked with both both our employer groups but thenacross all lines of business in our health plan clients. So not only commercialbut also Medicare advantage. Yeah, Medicaid and market place, and you know, you don't provide quite the same messaging into your Medicare advantage that you dointo your Medicaid or your commercial right. You want to be sensitive to youraudience. We put out a press release with one of our health plan clientsrecently, children's community health plan, who offers Medicaid as well as marketplace,and we did a relaunch with them towards the end of two thousand and twentyand saw incredible results in their Medicaid population. That's a really challenging population to engagebecause that population has so many challenges in their daily lives and children.Really wanted to provide a fully covered there's there's there's no copay or deductible foraccess to kill provide very accessible, broadly applicable care to these vulnerable members ina time of great need, right because covid has been, you know,particularly challenging for for these populations, and we were just so pleased with theupdate. I mean it really highlights the need but also that ability of thethe vendor and the plan to work together and successfully engage that Ye, andwe've seen fantastic results. That's amazing. That's really wonderful. So so Iwant to switch gears a little bit and talk about proving Roi. So thisis something that you know, you'd communicated to me before. That was somethingthat was really important in critical for Keyo and and I want to just talkabout that a little bit more because a lot of times we have clients orwe have companies that are even guests on the show and they're talking about theirvalue proposition, they're talking about how we lower cost and you know, it'sone thing to say that we improve outcomes, increase member satisfaction and lower costs.Right, the TRIFECTA there, but...

...having the evidence to back up theclaims that were making game is a real game changer for the business. Sowhat was that like in the beginning, trying to develop and build up thatevidence, and then how has it been, you know, kind of either anotherweapon in your arsenal, or how is it helped you really kind ofcreate that competitive advantage? That's a fantastic question. Thank you. Yes,and that would be another piece of advice I would have is darkas early,because they take a while to achieve, and in your initial contracts try tobuild in a collaboration and around actually examining our live. So in our casewe we formed great partnerships with our with our early health plan contients. Theywanted to look at that Ury to so they agreed to send US claims data. So what we did is three at this point. Now Longitudinal plans.State the base studies looking quantifying the medical utilization and spend in Keyo participants versusnon Keyo participants, spetistically similar reference group, and we found very significant results.So between forty two and seventy percent lower back being related medical spend inKyo participants. We examine particular areas that are quite impactful. So, forexample, urgent care we have over a ninety percent sent reduction and urging carethat in Kyo participants really related to our immediacy. In one study, seventynine percent reduction in build opioid prescriptions compared to a one percent production in thereference group. In a second study of twenty four percent reduction in opioid prescriptionsin Kyo participants, decreases in MRI's, in injections, in surgeries and Zodiatand say the ablation, all these over utilized and expensive diatna and treatments thatdon't just cost money, it's that they can actually do harm. Right,when you don't need a surgery, you're actually doing hard to net people.It's like changing. Yeah, it's absolutely so. So having that cool.So that's hard. Our one that's Roy actually looking at the claims data.That's very, very, very different than Roi calculations that are based on eithera predictive model. Yeah, for example, studies show that PT delivers x percentsavings as compared to traditional care. We feel that we are why percentbetter than PT. So you will have an ro lie of Z right.That's just addictive model. The other type of Roy discussion that gets bandied aroundis Roi based on self reported like cliness to consume services, and again that'sjust very different to how evidence May instant and actually looking at somebody's claims data. So that has has been tremendously beneficial to us as well as to ourclients and and certainly is a is a strong differentiator in the sales process.So there's two things that you mentioned that I want to kind of go backto. That I think would be really important for our viewers and our listenersto kind of know a little bit more about. One is the the agreementwith those early customers, whether their pilots or proof of concept customers or whetherthey're, you know, fullblown cut just early stage customers. What are someof the important things that need to be included in those agreements up front,because a lot of times I'm speaking with innovators and they're just so except.They're either so desperate or so excited to have one of their target customers sayyes that they often forget about the negotiation...

...power that they still have at thetable, even with those early customers. So often they might have a coupleof pilots or a couple of early customers, but they still don't have the evidencethat they need because they didn't negotiate those those, you know, dataelements up front. So just touch on that a little bit, you know, to kind of help our audience. Absolutely and and obviously in certain contractsyou have more or less leverage right or in our very first one it wasn'tactually written into the contract. We just developed over that year such a closerelationship, because one thing that really stands out with Kyo is how much wecare about our clients. We are good partners. Yeah, we've got somefantastic quotes about being a dream to work with. Her phenomenal to work with. I'm on hugging terms with with the Majity so so a Sovid right beforecovid and hopefully come in again one of these dyes, right, yeah.But so, even though it wasn't in the contract, we were able tocome to an agreement when it was time to do that claims analysis, andthey did by the day to it was sent off to a third party analystand we were able to provide them with analysis and that was very beneficial tothem as well. Actually, in that case, Kyo was their first digitalsolution. We've become the model for their entire population health management strategy on thedigital side. So learned from us to in at our previously none of theirprograms had measurable Roi. Yeah, yeah, I think. Yeah, and Ithink that's a really good point, because whoever's the internal champion of thisinitiative, you know, they have just as much to gain as you do. Right, to be able to demonstrate that real tangible are a lot.I absolutely absolutely you can usually find a way to put it in the contractthat is palatable. For both parties. So, for example, one ofthe contracts we just wrote, we always have in there that they will sharedata with us, we will share the analysis back with them and then wehave the right to use that data in an anom anonymized format. Yeah,you won't publish it using their logo without their permission, but we can useit as long as it can't be linked back to them. And wait forhealthcare to change that. I mean, you know, when you think aboutthe possibilities and other industries, when you have success and you know to beable to like shout that from the rooftops of like such and such clients specifically, you know had these results, and then you get into healthcare, withhealth plans and hospital systems, and they're like, just don't use my logoor my name. Yes, yes, over time, though, what wefound is is that trust is built and they let you use when there becausethey're proud of it as well. It's always exists late of leadership on theirpart as well. Yeah, yeah, Yep, Hey, it's Dr Roxyhere with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out whatmoves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy. I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. Thepivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivotstrategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a threehundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivotlenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll bearmed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sure you canpivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities. Learn more atlegacy DNACOM backslash kit. So some of...

...the things I usually, you know, kind of encourage innovators early on to start thinking about is, you know, what are those key metrics, what are those key data elements that theyneed and make that part of that contracting process up front. And then even, you know, from a sales standpoint of you know, like what doyou want to happen next? So if a, B and C happen,well, how does like? What are the next steps? You know,is that like a program extension? Is it a stroke program expansion? Andyou know, it may not always be the right thing to include, youknow, in that contract up front, but sometimes it is and it canhelp you, you know, for residual income or long term client relationships,being able to have that up front. Absolutely absolutely. So, you know, obviously we try to do full contracts as opposed to pilot contracts, butwith the job both. You know, they often will walk away town pilotand making sure that you mutually understand what are the what are the metrics forsuccess? How are we measuring success of this program and then, as youto your point, what are the next steps for moving past into a broaderexpansion? Yep, so the second thing that you mentioned that I think isreally important is patients. So the other thing that I often hear from innovatorsis, you know, like I just I don't have the resources right now, at this early and our company to invest in these types of studies.You know, will do that down the road and I and and I thinkthe patients it as well as the resources that are required to be able tofacilitate something like this. But I think for every single one that overlook thator think that they're going to do that later is really doing themselves a disservicebecause it's such a key ingredient to the commercial success. It's like you gotto do it as you got to started as soon as you can. Sojust talk about the patients and then maybe even the resource side of that.No, that's a great question. It does take a long time because todo to do a good claims database study, and I want to be clear,this is not a randomized control trial. Right, that's quite less effective ina when you're looking at the economics in a in a in a population, because people behave differently if they are in a clinical trialut than they dojust in a normal life. So what we're Ikingu when this program is offeredin a real population, what happens? Who engages and what happens in theirclaims data? Yeah, so you don't have the costs in this type ofstudy that you would have with a with a RCT, but it does taketime. So to do a good job of it, you really want oneyear of claims data post enrollment and then you'd wait for the claims to filterin. So really, you know, you can't even begin to do theanalysis for about fourteen months. Yeah, teen months after you began the programso it's a time commitment the resources to do it, though there are definitelyvery skilled health economist people who will do contract under the AA to do aclaims analysis for you. It doesn't have to be resources for more than thecompany. So are sure? Yep. I was thinking more of the alongsthe lines of funding, not people resources, especially for some of these earlier stagestartups. But again, I think that you know, when you're talkingabout the the capital that you have to work with or when you're talking aboutraising funds to be able to build and grow the company, that you knowthe having that clinical evidence should be part of the plan absolutely from the beginning. Right. We need to be able... fund that just as much aswe need to be able to fund the development of the technology solution. Absolutelymoney very well spent. Yep. Yep. So you've also talked in the pasta lot about culture and how important culture is and you know, forsomeone like yourself who is, in you know, one of the early employeesand then you know, worked your way up and has been leading the companyfor a while now, talk about how the culture, how important the cultureyou has been to your commercial success and then maybe how it's evolved in someof them, maybe even the challenges that you faced, because it's very differentto build and cultivate a culture with taking a team of ten versus a teamof fifty or a hundred or even more. So just kind of tell us alittle bit about that, your experience with that. I love that question. It's something I actually think about quite a bit. So Ko has grownquite a bit in the last year. We historically have had very long wayretention. Right, people do not leave Ko. We really have a senseof family in our company and that sense of family, the sense of values, the deep caring that we have for both our clients and our members isintegral. It is integral to the company and is something that is really,really, really important to me to retain as we scale, and that's notnecessarily an easy thing. I know many companies who have struggled with maintaining thatlevel of partnership, about of being an outstanding partner to clients in your membersas they scale and grow rapidly, and I think a big part of thatis looking carefully at your highs, at the at what type of environment dotwo people want to be in. We if you ask Keo folks, it'llbe we want to be doing something that we're passionate about, where we knowthat we're helping people. That's really important to them. They want to seethe impact that we're having. They want to work hard, that have funand be a cover to support environment. Doing that and thinking through that asyou're adding team members is really important. But you know, it's also fantasticbringing in new team members because you're bringing in new perspectives, right, andyou're bringing in both different experiences and different perspectives. And we actually now,and look what COPD has done. We, all of our team members, werein vans and Wisconsin back at the beginning of two thousand and twenty.We have folks all over the kind. During that we have worked in Boston'sand Francisco and Seattle, twin cities and Austin. And you know, ifyou would have asked me two years ago, could our head of product not bephysically located with the development team, I would said no, I don'tthink that's going to work. All right, right, yeah, well, andI think you're in good company. I mean I would say that majorityof the healthcare market as a whole and in the leaders have had to reimaginewhat's possible because of covid in in being thrusted into this remote world and invirtual selling or, you know, distant selling, and then also leading teamsin a virtual environment. So our company has been virtual from day one,so for the past eleven years, and there's a number of things that Ijust really love about it. One is that, you know, I'm notforced to just tap into talent that's local. So I mean, wow, whywhen you open up the country or even the world right so we don'teven have to, you know, focus just on national boarders? Me andthe amount of perspective in talent that you're able to tap into is just incredible. And then also even from a client standpoint, to you know, youable to get to work with so many amazing people around the country or aroundthe world when you're not just really focused...

...local. I mean, local businessesare great, but it's just nice to not have those board boundaries or boarderssometimes too. Absolutely it's one of the things that defines our right and notdo roughly bound as a digital solution, we can provide, you know,outstanding muscules gold appear to your members across the country, right, not justin one not plied to brick and mortar boundaries. And you know, soit's been fantastic to be in our own team and I think that's such it'sso ironic, right. It's like, oh no, with your customers andyour users, like Maly, know, you don't even need these geographical boundaries, but we thought we did as an organization in order to operate and function, and now we realize like no, the users don't need those boundaries andneither do we. Yeah, yeah, and that's great. So before wewrap up here, I want to, you know, just kind of brainstorma challenge that I think a lot of folks have that we really haven't talkedabout on the show, I don't think, really at all. Is, youknow, even even as the company grows, sometimes the the the profitsthat the company has developed get reinvested into the technology or the product right,or or maybe even human capital, and so very often it leaves marketing teamswith limited budgets and limited resources. Or you might be in the early stageswhere you're you know, you're just still working with a really small or limitedbudget. So that you know, the challenge is how do you really expandawareness and word of mouth with such a small budget to work with? AndI think a lot of few folks in the in the audience here will haveexperienced that challenge. Is that something that you guys have faced at some point? And then let's just talk about that that I love. That absolutely issomething that we have faced and still face to some extent. So between twothousand and seventeen, when we launched our product, and mid two thousand andtwenty, when we close to funding round and we're really able to start growingfrom from a human capital perspective, we know sales or marketing. So allof those accounts were closed by me as product, and that's just really,really challenging. I like to say that we are the best kept secret indigital Musculo skel don't care. We have been around two thousand and seventeen.We've really established clinical outcomes, we have US abolished hard Roi claims, databasedoutcomes and yet we have had almost no marketing. So our brain visibility isis very low at this point and I've just brought in in January a fantastichead of marketing and her key focus on the B Tob side is raising thatbrand visibility, right. Yeah, how people about Keyo, sharing Keyo andsharing our vision, sharing what we've accomplished, how we can help you, andshe still has fairly limited resources. But really try to use social media, trying to use our clients, who are wonderful advocates for us, doingpress releases for them with US publishing, you know, putting out their informationabout our our outcomes, getting members to do to share testimonials, which manyof them are are eager to do. All those all of those things canhelp. I firs, what are some of your thoughts are as well?Yeah, so, so what you just said is so critical because evidence showsthat the way, I don't know if you've ever heard of the book,crossing the Chasm Right where you've got a lot of companies that have some successwith the early market right. They can get early market customers, they canpenetrate that first sixteen percent of their target..., but crossing over that chasmis where they really, you know, just statistically fall short and really struggleto be able to like build and grow and scale the company. And alot of the evidence shows that one of the ways to be able to overcomethat is to be able to make sure that your early customers are raving fansand that you are facilitating that advocacy, you're facilitating that word of Mouth Marketingand promotion. So a lot of times will have clients or customers that areraving bands, but we might not be leveraging that to the fullest extent.So you know, when I'm working with folks, we divide in every singletarget market into that diffusion of innovation curve where you know the first sixteen percentare. You know they're going to be attracted to different messages, different valuepropositions, different product configurations. Those are the ones that want the new,the exciting, never been done before. As you start to grow, afteryou penetrate those now you're getting into a different market segment, which is thatmainstream market would they tend to be a little bit more risk averse and theydon't want anything that's new and revolutionary and never been done before. So theonly way you're going to be able to get those people to buy is goingto be for those peers and their community to be able to say how thisis trusted, this becomes standard process right, and so that messaging shift and thenbeing able to leverage those early customers to be able to promote that likethose are. So it's really more of those early customers, with the wordof mouth more so than it is even the brand that helps cross that chasminto the other market segment, and a lot of people overlook the the criticalsignificance of that distinction. Absolutely, absolutely, and I think that's fantastic advice.And if you can, if you're a champion, clients are armed withactual yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, clinical at right. So the clinicalevidence, like absolutely, you guys are onto that. The testimonials.You know, one thing that I'm a huge advocate for is video testimonials.I think that those are so much more powerful than static testimonials or text basewith the picture. There's tools out there like video peel, video PELCOM thathelp facilitate the the collection of those. They get really easy, right.So you know, in my experience, when you sell, you ask acustomer to like Hey, can you give me a testimonial? They're like yeah, sure, but then they never get to it, right. And whenyou use a tool like this where you send them a text message that's alink that then opens the camera on their phone and gives them the prompt ofthe three questions to ask. Like all of a sudden, your participation ratein those video testimonials seem to increase pretty heavily and they even have an integrationinto your website to where, you know, you can pop those onto the websitelike really, really easy. So video testimonials is something that I'm alwaysadvocating for, even if it takes time and effort and getting folks to doit. It's worth poking them and proving them a number of times to kindof get that, because when someone, you know, when the brand,says ABC, that's completely different when one of their peers in the community,you know, says something. So seeing that on video. The other thingthat I think is off like just so often overlooked in healthcare is the powerof the Google business page. And and so a lot of times come healthcarebrands will have a google business page, but it's like literally like their addressand their phone number, maybe even a description, but they're not really leveragingthat to the fullest. And so we...

...were working with a client not thatlong ago and created a campaign where we launched a customer satisfaction survey and ifthey were satisfied, we routed them to the Google business page to post areview. If they weren't satisfied, we routed them to the team that neededto trouble shoot that and investigate what was going on and solve that problem.And it might have been with a you know, like just a fluke,single instance, or it might have been something major that really needed to changein the business or the business model or, you know, how things are beingexecuted, and that Google business ranking shot through the roof. And thenthat's a huge competitive advantage. And then, of course, you know, Googleand the Algorithm is going to put so much more weight on the pagesthat are have all of those reviews, right. So now you're talking aboutlike organic, Free Seo. When someone's going online to search for a solutionlike yours, you know your page is going to rank really high because you'vegot all of those reviews instead of cobwebs there. So I want to sharethat with you and also share that with our viewers and our listeners, becauseI think like that's a free thing that you can do that can have alot of real business and marketing impact. Fantastic advice. Yeah, so,Lydia is there anything else that you would want to share with our audience todaybefore we wrap up? Just that what an incredible space we're in right andand it's scary. Thanks so even so much. In the last year,you know, there's your has been so challenging for so many people, butas just heightened the interest in the acceleration and the adoption of digital healthcare,I truly believe the future is so bright. Yeah, absolutely, he's the dayright. Those of us that are in this market, it's it is. It's a very exciting time to see that kind of accelerated adoption because Ithink we'll really truly be able to transform the healthcare industry and a way thatwe might have just really suffered through a little bit more for another ten yearsright now and we're just we're really going to be able to transform lives anda whole different way because of the acceleration of the adoption of digital health.Yes, and I think that you know, previously, you we've had employers reallyhelping drive that acceleration and now we have the added benefit of a actualpoll from members confer me, from consumers, as opposed to be Bush, andthat whole from consumers is going to be very, very, very powerful. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more so. If anyone wants tospeak to you about your commercialization journey or even about your solution, how willthey get ahold of you? Absolutely you can contact me through our website,qocom, or email me, Zeller at Kocom. Awesome. Well, thankyou so much. It's been a very rich and fun conversation today. Likewise, thanks so much. Have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank youso much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changinginnovation to market and I value your time and attention. To get the latestepisodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcastAPP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening, and Iappreciate everyone who shared the show with friends and colleagues. See You onthe next episode of Health Innovators.

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