Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 83 · 5 months ago

Pivoting your way to profit w/ Lydia Zeller

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Innovation in healthcare goes far beyond brick-and-mortar interactions - we’re in the digital age, and that means digital solutions are carving out their space.

And when you pair the intelligence of digital technology with a human touch, the opportunity to revolutionize how your consumers interact with your product skyrockets.

Lydia Zeller, CEO at Kiio, pursued the idea of being a true partner with their B2B members and then doubled down on gathering hard ROI and delivering tangible outcomes. 

From product design and development to funding and all the way through commercialization, Kiio has perfected their secret sauce - and are ready to revolutionize musculoskeletal care.

In this episode, Lydia shares some of the strategies and insights her company is using to turn the world of digital innovation on its side - you don’t want to miss this one!

Here are the show highlights:

This simple understanding can yield big success (7:02)

Capabilities that are critical to driving engagement (9:10)

Hard ROI and how it creates a competitive advantage (15:10)

Why it’s important to know your next move when exploring contracts (22:58)

Whether you’re funding evidence or development, this investment is necessary (24:12)

Turn customers into fanatics to successfully build, grow, and scale your business (31:42)

Guest Bio

Lydia Zeller is CEO at Kiio, a digital therapeutic company focused on changing the approach to musculoskeletal (MSK) care.

A champion for driving healthcare innovation, Lydia has been involved in every facet of Kiio’s product and business development.

Her passion for delivering impactful results helped lead the charge for the company’s pivot into the digital musculoskeletal therapeutic market.

Lydia received her BA and Executive MBA specializing in Strategic Management from the University of Wisconsin - Madison

If you’d like to get in touch with Lydia after the show, feel free to reach out to her via her website Kiio.com or emai l her at lzeller@kiio.com. 

You're listening to health, innovators,a podcast and video show about the leaders influencers and early, adoctors who are shaping the future of health care in your host Doctor Roxeymovie welcome back health innovators. Ontoday's episode, I am sitting down with Lydia Zeller who's. The President andCEO of to welcome to the show Lydia hold doctor raps a pleasure. Thank you.I am so excited to have this conversation with you today before weget started into the details of your commercialization journey. Maybe justgive our listeners and viewers a little bit of information about yourbackground and what you've been innovating these days. Fantasist Keo isa digital therapeutic company providing next generation Musculo scelere. So wehave an on demand: Digital First Solution that guides individualsthrough a very personalized evidence, space care program specific to theirtype of pain, including exercise, education, digital support and theability to interact one on one with a human being. One key differentiator for to is thatwe are using software to deliver care, so this is not virtualities of one, theone clinical care but re elever, ging, the power of technology to provideimmediate and demand accessible care. We sall be to be to health, insurancecompanies and large employers, and then our solution is made available to theirmembership. And what about your background yeah? I have kind of aninteresting non standard career path. I began actually in a Micheal ManagementFirm on the operation side out in the San Francisco area. Then, when my twinswere born, took a number actually quite a few years. Out of you know, the maters beforestandard career path did consulting in FEC regulatory management. I began itKeo, actually, as a volunteer right after Keo was founded, wow thousandtwelve yeah. My husband is about a story of working your way up indeed. Well, I think it's aninspirational story, I just go. Take it take a step back for a second an Yeh. Ithink women sometimes and men who take timeout of their out of their career, to raise kids,maybe to do something a little bit different while my kids were growing upand we actually home schooled dome all the way until they began college, andso I did consulting during that period in SEC regulation. But I think weundervalue the skill sets that are developed in Non Standard Times duringour lives. I think that as a as a leader being really looking at peopleand seeing more than just a paper, resume understanding skills and thenbeing able to provide that mentorship, an opportunity to really recognize star potential and andnurture and develop that, I think that's something that all of us isleaders need to pay a lot of attention to well. You know it's reallyinteresting, I'm that's it's not necessarily the thefocus or topic of our show, but I'm also a professor of gender leadership,and so I've studied- and I teach a lot about what's happening in the workforceand what's happening with women in the work force and kind of this gap that wehave in the C suite with female leaders. And you know one of the biggest reasonswhy we have so few leaders up with the top that are female, is because a lot of women are stepping away for adecade or maybe longer to be able to be...

MOMS with and not focus as much ontheir career. And then, when they reconnect into the workforce, it'susually just really difficult to be able to work their ward up. So what anincredible and inspiring story? Yes, absolutely tell us more absolutely and I certainly benefitedfrom from some fantastic mentors d during my career. So when I joined Kio,I wore multiple hats in our early years, really working in almost all areas ofthe company. I believe I was employee number three. Maybe after my myvolunteering became, you know sixty hours a week of volunteering hired andand again worked in in multiple areas. I did most things other than you know.SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT WOUND UP IN PRODUCT AND KO did a did. Avery sup is really a different company today than we were when wee started. SoKeo was founded on the premise of bringing evidence based and member centric careto physical therapy, but developing a hardware censor to very preciselyquantified muscle deficit and then a content library of over eighteenhundred, fully animated therapeutic exercises that the provider couldtailor to the specific patient needs. Deliver A re, Personis home exerciseprogram to the mobile device of the patient. Get feedback back remotely ofthat original Business Plan was flawed from from the perspective that we werereducing top line revenue for our perspective, clients yeah, which isjust in the fee for service visious model it just the economics were notthere, so I was aft at the end of two thousand and sixteen I was productstrategy at that point, to take a look at our technology to take a look atwhere we felt health care is headed yeah. What is really interesting andnew and care delivery models, how we can really leverage the best oftechnology evidence based CARE, behavioral economics, ConsumerMotivator S, what consumers are banting and really develop a product that thatskates to where the puck is headed, yeah, the Genesis of our pivot intodigital therapeutics and our shift and market focus to sell into the at riskentities so payers. So how has that pitet paid off in thelast three to four years? It's been a fantastic success. We've never lookedback, so we launched with our first health plan client at the beginning oftwo thousand and seventeen of atic clients. Naturally, since then we made an intentional, we don't evenoperate in the in the original business. Yeah, as listeners will understand, asa small company focus is is critical. You can't be doing too many differentthings. We sat the technology, it's the basis that are the foundation that ourdigital therapeutic was built off of, but right now we're not focusing onthat. So when you kind of look back at yourcommercialization journey, maybe before even after the pivot, you know what aresome of the N W and I think you already touched on one, but what are some ofthe key decisions that you made that you think really made a differencein the success that you've been able to achieve to date? Yes, absolutely well it's! This soundsso simple, but but when I have conversations with people founding companies, sometimesyou wonder whether it's really been properly thought through and, to behonest, I don't think we properly thought that, through in our originalbusiness premise, but really need to...

...make sure that you have spoken a multiple kings with multiple peoplein your in both your both your client perspective, clients,as well as perspective and users, if they're not the same as your client. Soreally I standing the pain points of the market that you want to serveunderstanding how you're going to differentiate within that market. Howyou're going to in the case of additional therapeutic, make sure thatyou're getting the end users to engage with you, because you can have awonderful product and if nobody uses it, it isn't going to bring any value right,so truly understanding the market and all the stake holders in the market.All of your users and then also just as importantly, making sure that you havea lined economic interest, because even if you're, developing a product thatserves needs people enjoy using etc. If you're not aligning those economicinteresting, we all know them ament of economic interest in health care. Is aparty complex beast and not as easy to attain. Everyone might think Yep yea right, even even the payment structure,so, for example, Kean invoice our clients directly, butwe can also build through the clan system using cept codes, and that makesit so much easier, particularly for our employer, clients, Yeah Yeah, so youtouched on something I love you you to kind of just dig in a little bit deeperwhen you talked about you know the adoption of the technology, so I thinkyou touched on something. That's so important. Is that really closing asale right and getting a client to buy the solution is definitely not theinpounded? I think we know that, but it's also in a lot of ways, a beginningpoint as well. So do you have any of those adoption strategies that maybehave worked really Wello for you guys or how you have looked at that being akey ingredient to your commercial success? That's a fantastic point afterapse absolutely and we've continued to learn and continue to improve in thatarea from the beginning. So I'll give you an example in our very firstimplementation. Keo did not have the capabilities torun the awareness campaigns in the members of our twines, so our firstelan client yea be relied on plans themselves to run those campaigns. We quickly learned that having mostcapabilities was critical, to drive, engagement,yeah and, and so so keel runs. Those campaigns andwe've attained really fantastic engagement in an employer population.We Will Capture between twenty and forty five percent of the addressin inhealth population. It's always lower more like ten percent, primarilybecause health plants don't have as a great contact information for the R fortheir memberships as employers. Typically, do we always like to workcynegetic ally together with our clients, so that we are utilizing kind of specific changes aswell as email, direct mail, potentially text yea on the Keel side,and- and you know it's it's- how you craft the awareness campaign thatreally determines its success, and so we've continually over the years, can't increase our capture race,lessons for a lot of that's the secret as of the company right and then youtalk about what's differentiation, what secret sauce and those campaigns are definitely play into that. We reallylearn that engagement doesn't begin. I think this was maybe the most criticallearning and it's a pretty simple one, butengagement doesn't begin with the first...

...time the member uses our act right. Itbegins with the first time they learn about us and how that message is framed.What information is provided to the member? What are the reasons to believe?What's the O is it? Is it a joyful message versus a scary message? Right, I meanwe're in pain management, so you can craft a message that shows people inpain, reduce your pain or you can craft a more joyful message about hope andand empowerment right, and they have a very different impact. So really thinking about engagement asas starting right at the beginning and making sure you're setting a tollingthat that that you want right from the beginning. Well, you guys have achievedso much success. You must have a I love that you talk about how andtransparently and candidly that you know you didn't have it all figured outin the beginning and like all of us, you know you're learning along the way,and you know obviously you're following some best practices right out of thegate, but then you're learning about maybe specific patient populations ormember populations within different health plans and being able to continueto shape that I mean because right now I mean there's hundreds of thousands ofreally amazing technologies out there that are like dusty, cobwebs right. Sothe engagement piece is such a critical component of the commercial success. SoI won't ask you any more details, so you don't have to disclose any moreabout your secret sauce and one thing that you just mentioned there, which isnot only the continuing to learn but that your strategy mama be different indifferent populations. So we had a wonderful success. Tokas worked with both both our important groups, butthen across all lines of business in our health plane client. So not onlycommercial but also Medicare advantage, yea, Medicaid and market place, and youknow you don't provide quite the same messaging into your Medicare advantagethat you do into your Medicaid or your commercial right. You want to besensitive to your audience. We put out a press release with one of our healthplaying clients, recently children's community health plan who offersMedicaid as well as marketplace, and we did a relaunch with them towards theend of two thousand and twenty and saw incredible results in their Medicaidpopulation. That's a really challenging population to engage because thatpopulation has so many challenges in their daily lives and children's really wanted to provide fully covered e. there's no co payordeduct for access to co, provide very accessible, broadly applicable care tothese vulnerable members. In a time of great need right because Covin Hasbeen,you know particularly challenging for for these populations, and we were justso pleased with the uptake I mean it really highlights the need, but alsothat ability of the the vendor and a plan to work togetherand successfully engaged that yeah and we've seen fantastic results. That's amazing! That's really wonderful! So so I want to switch years a littlebit and talk about proving Roi. So this is something that you know youcommunicated to me before. That was something that was really important andcritical for Ko and- and I want to just talk about that- a little bit morebecause a lot of times we have clients, or we have companies that are evenguests on the show and they're talking about their value proposition they'retalking about how we lower cost- and you know it's one thing to say- that weimprove outcomes, increase member satisfaction and lower cost right, thetrifacial, but having the evidence to...

...back up the claims that we're making isa real game changer for the business. So what was that like in the beginning,trying to develop and build up that evidence? And then how has it been? Youknow kind of either another weapon in your arsenal or how is it helped youreally kind of create that competitive advantage. That's a fantastic question!Thank you. Yes, and that will be another piece of advice I would have isdark closes early because they take a while to achieve and in your initialcontracts, try to build in a Caborana around actually examining our I. So, inour case, we we form great partnerships with our reallyhealth plan contents. They wanted to look at that, our I do so they agreedto send US claims data. So what we did is most three at this point now,Longitudinal plain sat the base studies, looking quantify the medical utilization and spend in Keoparticipants, your supinate participants, statistically similarreference group, and we found very significant result. So between forty two and seventy percent,lower batting related medical spend in Keo participants, we examine particularareas that are quite impassable so, for example,Virgin Care. We have over a ninety percent reduction in virgin here, butincipiant really related to our immediacy. One study, a seventy ninepercent reduction in philopappus compared to one per cent production inthe reverence group. In a second study of twenty four percent reduction in pipestone in Keo, participantsdecreases in Mris in injections, in surgeries as o Diane and Siao over utilized and expensive dis andtreatments that don't just cost money is that they can actually do harm right,yeah. I so you don't need to surgery, you're actually doing harms an epoplite like changing yeah. I is absolutely so so having that pro. Sothat's hard, a Mon, THAT'S OUR LIFE! Actually looking at the claims data,that's very, very, very different than Roi calculations that are based oneither a predictive model. Yeah, for example, study show that P T delivers xpercent savings as compared to traditional care. We feel that we arewide percent better than PT, so you will have an Ri of z right that justaddictive model. The other type of Roi discussion that gets bandied around isRoi based on self recorded likeliness to consume services, and again, that'sjust very different to how evidence. May I actually looking at somebody'splans, data yeah so that has half been tremendously beneficial to us, as wellas to our clients and and certainly is a is a strong differentiator in thesales process. So there's two things that you mentioned, that I want to kindof go back to that. I think would be really important for our viewers andour listeners to kind of know a little bit more aboutone is the the agreement with those earlycustomers, whether they're, pilates or proof of concept, customers or whetherthey're you know full blown just early stage customers. What are some of theimportant things that need to be included in those agreements up frontbecause a lot of times, I'm speaking with innovators and they're, just soexcite they're, either so desperate or so excited to have o one of theirtarget. Customers say yes, that they...

...often forget about the negotiationpower that they still have at the table, even with those early customers. Sooften they might have a couple of pilots or a couple of early customers,but they still don't have the evidence that they need because they didn'tnegotiate. Those those you know, data elements up up front, so just touch onthat a little bit. You know to kind of help, our audience absolutely andobviously, in certain con of tract, that you have more or less leverage rightright in our very first one. It wasn't actually written into the contract wejust developed over that year, such a close relationship, because one thingthat really stands out with KIO is how much we care about our clients. We aregood partners. Yeah we've got some fantastic quotes about being a dream towork, whether phenomenal to work with I'm on hugging terms with with them. IE so Oberon come in again one of these days,right yeah, but so so, even though it wasn't in thecontract, we were able to come to an agreement when it was time to do that,plains analysis and they did by the data it was sent off to a third partyanalyst and and we were able to provide them with analysis and that was verybeneficial to them as well. Actually, in that case, Pio was their firstdigital solution. We've become the model for their entire populationhealth management strategy. On the digital side, I'm so learned from UStoo. In previously none of their programshad measurable, Ri Yeah Yeah. I think yeah and I think that's a really goodpoint because whoever's the internal champion of this initiative. You knowthey have just as much to gain as you do right to be able to demonstrate thatReal, tangible R, a lot. I absolutely absolutely. You can usually find a wayto put it in the contract that is palatable for both parties. So, forexample, one of the contracts we just wrote. We always have in there that they willshare data with us. We will share the analysis back with them and then we have the right to use thatdata in an Anon, Anonymi, zed format, yeah, you won't publish it using theirlegal without their permission, but we can use it as long as it can't belimped back to them an wait for health care to change that I mean you know when you think about thepossibilities and other industries when you have success, and you know to beable to like shout that from the roof tops of like such and such clients,specifically, you know had these results and then you get into healthcare with health plans and hospital systems and they're like just don't usemy local or my name. Yes, yes, over time, t o what we foundis that trust is built and the ETA leadership on her part as well. YeahYeah Ye, hey it's Dr Roxy. Here with a quickbreak from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves youneed to make to survive and thrive in the new Co vid economy? I want everyhealth innovator to find their most viable and profitable hibit strategy,which is why I created the Co. Vid Proof Your Business Pisoti, the pivotkit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivotstrategies. It walks you through six categories. You need to examine for athree hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the sixcritical pivot lenses, as you make your way through this comprehensive kit,you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sureyou can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details andopportunities, learn more at legacy:...

Hyphen Daco Back Kit, so some of the things I usually youknow kind of encourage innovators early on to start thinking about. Is You knowwhat are those keymer? What are those key data elements that they need andmake that part of that contracting process up front? And then even youknow from a sales standpoint of you know like what do you want to happennext? So if a B and c happened well, how does like? What are the next steps you know? Is that, like a programextension? Is it EPOPEA expansion? And you know it may not always be the rightthing to include you know in that contract up front, but sometimes it is,and it can help you. You know, for residual income or long term clientrelationships being able to have that up front. Absolutely absolutely so you now. Obviously we tried to do fullcontracts as opposed to pilot contracts, but with the Joncoes you know theyoften will walk away to pilot and making sure that you mutuallyunderstand what are the whether the metrics for success. Howwere we measuring success of this program and then, as you do your point,what are the next steps for moving past out into a broader expansion yep? Sothe second thing that you mentioned, that, I think is really important ispatience. So the other thing that I often hear from innovators is, you knowlike I just I don't have the resources right now at this early in our companyto invest in these types of studies. You know we'll do that down the roadand I a D, and I think the patients, as well as the resources that are requiredto be able to facilitate something like this, but I think for every single onethat overlook that or think that they'regoing to do that later is really doing themselves a disservice, because it'ssuch a key ingredient to the commercial success. It's like you got to do it. IsYou got to start at this soon, as you can so just talk about the patients andthen maybe even the resource side? Of that? No that's a great question. It does take a long time because to doto do a good, clean state to they study and I want to be cluded. This is not arandom. Is Control trip right that that fight less effective? You know whenyou're looking at the economics in a in a population, because people behavedifferently. If they are in a clinical trial, then they do just in a normallife. So what we're making happen when this program is offered in a realpopulation? What happens who engages and what happens in their plan datayeah? So you don't have the cost in this type of study that you would havewith a with a R ct, but it does take time so to do a goodjob a bit. You really want one year of clean data post enrollment and thenneed to wait for the clans to filter in so really you know you can't even beginto do the analysis for about fourteen months and two months after you beganthe program. So so it's a it's a time commitment the resources to do it,though there are definitely very skilled health economist people who will docontract under BAA to do a acclaims analysis for you. It doesn't have to beresources from within the company to re sure Yep. I was thinking more of the longs, thelines of funding, not people resources, especially forsome of these earlier stage startups. But again, I think that you know whenyou're talking about the the capital that you have to work with or whenyou're talking about raising funds to be able to build and grow the companythat you know the having that clinical evidence should be part of the plan. Absolutelyfrom the beginning right. We need to be...

...able to fund that just as much as weneed to be able to fund the development of the technology solution. Absolutelymoney very well spent Yep Yep, so you've also talked in the past a lotabout culture and how important culture is, and you know for someone likeyourself who is in you know, one of the early employees and then you know,worked your way up and has been leading the company for a while. Now talk about how the culture, howimportant the culture has been to your commercial success and then maybe howit's evolved and some of them, maybe even the challenges that you faced, because it's very different to build and cultivate a culture with King,a team of ten versus a team of fifty or a hundred, or even more so just kind oftell us a little bit about that. Your experience with that. I love thatMuston. It's something I actually think about. Quite a bit, so keo has grownquite a bit in the last year. We historically a had a very long waypretension right. People just do not leave Po. We really have a sense of family in ourcomin and that sense of family. The sense of values, the deep caring thatwe have for both our clients and our members is intercallate- is intergatories thecompany and is something that is really really really important to me to retainas we scale and that's not necessarily an easy thing. I know many have whohave struggled with maintaining that level of partnership about of being anoutstanding partner to clients and your members, as they scale and row rapidly,and I think a big part of that is looking carefully at your hires at the at what type of environment do dopeople want to be in. We e? U N D, if you ask Keok it'll be we want to bedoing something that we're passionate about where we know that we're helpingpeople that's really important to them. They want to see the impact that we'rehaving they want to work howe that has some and be an e to support environment.Doing that I m thinking through that, as your adding team revers is reallyimportant, but you know it's also fantastic Werninnew team members, because you're bringing in newperspectives right and you're, bringing in both different experiences anddifferent perspectives, and we actually now I mean look what Gogan has done. Weall of our team members were in Banson Wisconsin back at the beginning of two thousandand twenty. We have folks all over the country that we have looked in Bostonand San Francisco in Seattle and between cities and Austin, and you knowif you would have asked me two years ago, could I hit a product not bephysically located with the development team? I would said: No, I don't thinkthat's going to work and right right, right, yeah well and I think you're ingood company I mean I would say that majority of the health care market as awhole in the leaders have had to re. Imagine what's possible because of Ovidin being thrusted into this remote world in virtual selling, or you knowdistant selling and then also leading teams in a virtual environment. So ourcompany's been virtual for day one so for the past eleven years and there's anumber of things that I just really love about it one is that you know I'mnot forced to just tap in to talent, that's local, so I mean wow whit whenyou open up the country or even the world right. So we don't even have toyou know, focus just on national borders me an the amount of perspectivein in talent that you're able to tap into is just incredible and then alsoeven from a client standpoint to you know you be able to get to work with somany amazing people around the country...

...or around the world when you're notjust really focused local, I mean local businesses are great, but it's justnice to not have those board boundaries or borders, sometimes to absolutelyit's one of the things that defines are eate not do reply bound as a digitalsolution. We can provide. You know outstanding. Muscular scolopt remembersacross the country right, not just in one nap side, the brick and mortarboundaries, and you know so it's been fantastic to Nouron team. I think that's such it'sso ironic, right. It's like! Oh, no with your customers and your users likeMinita. You don't even need these geographical boundaries, but we thoughtwe did as an organization in order to operate and function. And now werealize, like no, the users don't need those boundaries and neither do we yeahyeah. Oh and that's great so before we wrap up here, I want to you know justkind of brain storm, a challenge that I think a lot of folks have that wereally haven't talked about on the show. I don't think really at all. Is You know, even even as the company grows,sometimes the the profits that the company has developed, get re invested into thetechnology or the product right or or maybe evenhuman capital, and so very often it leaves marketing teams with limitedbudgets and limited resources, or you might be in the early stages whereyou're you know, you're just still working with a really small or limitedbudget, so that you know the challenge is howdo you really expand awareness and word ofmouth with such a small budget to work with, and I think a lot of few folks inthe audience here will have experienced. That challenge. Is that something thatyou guys have faced at some point? And then, let's just talk about that you that I love that there absolutelyis something that we have faced and still face to some extent. So betweentwo thousand and seventeen, when we launched our product and mid two thousand and twenty when weclosed a funding round and were really able to start growing from it from ahuman capital perspective, we know sales are marketing. So all of thoseaccounts were closed by me as pract, and that's just really reallychallenging. I like to say that we are the best kept secret in digitalmuscular skelder. We have been around see with really established conicaloutcomes. We have ablisherner based outcomes and yet we have had almost no marketing, so ourgrain visibility is is very low. At this point, yea and the I've justbrought in in January, a fantastic head of marketing and her key focus on n.The Bu Tobe side is raising that brand disability right yeah and people aboutKom, sharing, Keo and sharing our vision, Sharin. What we'veaccomplished, how we can help you and she still has fairly limited resources,but we try to use social media trying to use our poets, who are wonderfuladvocates for us doing, press releases for them with US publishing. You knowputting out their information about our our outcomes getting members to do toshare testimonials, which many of them are are eager to do. Those all of thosethings can help. I hers what some of your thoughts are as well yeah, so sowhat you just said is so critical, because evidence shows that the way Idon't know if you've ever heard of the book crossing the Chasm Right whereyou've got a lot of companies that have some success with the early marketright, they can get early market customers. They can penetrate thatfirst, sixteen percent of their target...

...market but crossing over that chasm iswhere they really, you know just statistically fall short and reallystruggle to be able to like build and grow and scale. The company, and a lotof the evidence shows that one of the ways to be able to overcome that is tobe able to make sure that your early customers are raving fans and that youare facilitating that advocacy you're facilitating that word of MouthMarketing and promotion. So a lot of times will have clients or customersthat are raving fans. But we might not be leveraging that to the fullestextent. So you know when I'm working with folks, we divide in every singletarget market into that diffusion of innovation, carve where you know thefirst. Sixteen percent are, you know, they're going to be attracted todifferent messages, different value, propositions, different productconfigurations, those are the ones that want the new. The exciting never beendone before. As you start to grow after you penetrate those now you're gettinginto a different market segment, which is that mainstream market would theytend to be a little bit more risk of verse and they don't want anything.That's new and revolutionary and never been done before. So the only wayyou're going to be able to get those people to buy is going to be for thosepeers in their community to be able to say how this is trusted. This becomesstandard process right and so that messaging shift and then being able toleverage those early customers to be able to promote that, like those are,so it's really more of those early customers with the word of mouth more so than itis even the brand that helps cost that tasmit the other market segment and alot of people overlook the the critical significance of that distinction. Absolutely absolutely! No, I thinkthat's fantastic advice and if you can, if you're champion, clients are armed with actual yeah yeah yeah exactly right, so the clinical evidence likeabsolutely you guys, are on that the testimonials you know. One thing that I'm a hugeadvocate for is video testimonials. I think that those are so much morepowerful than static, testimonials or text base. With the picture there'stools out there like video, peel video, P e elco that helped facilitate the thecollection of those you make. It really easy right. So you know, in myexperience when you sell you ask a customer to like Hey. Can you give me atestimonial they're, like yeah sure, but then they never get to it right andwhen you use a tool like this, where you send them a text message, that's alink that then opens the camera on their phone and gives them the promptof the three questions to ask like all of a sudden. Your participation rate inthose video testimonials seem to increase pretty heavily and they evenhave an integration into your website to where you know you can pop thoseonto the website like really really easy. So video testimonials issomething that I'm always advocating for, even if it takes time and effortand getting folks to do it, it's worth poking them and proving them a numberof times to kind of get that, because when someone, you know when thebrand says a B C, that's completely different when one of their peers in the community,you know, says something so seeing that on video. The other thing that I thinkis off like just so often overlooked in health care is the power of the Googlebusiness page and and so a lot of times. Health carebrands will have a google business page, but it's like literally like theiraddress and their phone number may be...

...even a description but they're notreally leveraging that to the fullest. And so we were working with the clientnot that long ago and created a a campaign where we launched a customersatisfaction survey and if they were satisfied. We routed them to the Googlebusiness page to post a review if they weren't satisfied. We routed them tothe team that needed to trouble, shoot thatand investigate what was going on and solved that problem and it might havebeen with a you know like just a fluke single instance, or it might have beensomething major that really needed to change in the business or the businessmodel, or you know how things are being executed and that Google businessranking shot through the roof and then that's a huge competitive advantage.And then, of course, you know, Google and the Algorithm is going to put somuch more weight on the pages that are have all of those reviews right so now,you're talking about like organic free Seo, when someone's going online tosearch for a solution like yours, you know your page is going to rank reallyhigh, because you've got all of those reviews instead of cobwebs there. So Iwouldn't share that with you and also share that with our viewers and ourlisteners, because I think, like that's a free thing, that you can do that, canhave a lot of real business and marketing impact fane, good, Vife, yeah, so lydia is there anything else thatyou would want to share with our audience today before we wrap up just that, what incredible space werein right and it's ary a so even so much in the last year. You know, there'sthis year has been so challenging for so many people yeah as just heightenedthe interest in the acceleration and the adoption of digital health care. I truly believe the future is so bright.Yeah yeah absolutely sees the day. Rites of us that are in this market,it's it is it's a very exciting time to see thatton of accelerated adoption, because I think we're really truly be able totransform the health care indius ry in a way that we might have just reallysuffered through a little bit more for another ten years right, we're justwe're really going to be able to transform lives and a whole differentway because of the acceleration of the adoption of digital health. Yes- and Ithink that you know previously- we've had employers really helping drive thatacceleration, and now we have the added benefit of an actual poll from membersconfer from consumers as opposed to being push and that pole from consumersis going to be very, very, very powerful yeah. I couldn't agree withyou more so if anyone wants to speak to you about your commercializationjourney or even about your solution, how will they get a hold of you?Absolutely. You can contact me through our website, poom or email me elzearcom awesome! Well, thank you! So much, it's been a very rich and funconversation today. Likewise, thanks so much have awonderful rest of your day. Thank you so much for listening. I knowyou're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market, and Ivalue your time and attention to get the latest episodes on your mobiledevice automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast AP, likeApple Podcast, potii and stitcher. Thank you for listening, and Iappreciate every one who share the show with friends and colleagues, see you onthe next episode of Health, Innovator, T.

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