Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 88 · 1 year ago

What successful followers do: Time-to-market decisions w/Kevin Dillard


Historically risk-averse entrepreneurs are the unicorns of start-ups: myths, legends, and, well, really hard to find!

Finding one who not only made the leap but made it successfully? Yeah, we’re talking Holy Grail material now.

Kevin Dillard is one such unicorn. Throwing risk to the wind, he left his job as in-house counsel for the American Association of Orthodontists to launch Clear Blue Smiles.

Knowing he could make a positive difference for both orthodontists and patients was his foundation - and a keen nose for strategic marketing was his ace in the hole.

With over 18 years in the industries he served, Kevin hit the market late - but with all the right strategies in place, and he is making his mark in a big way.

If you want to hear about Kevin’s journey - and how he found unintentional marketing research gold inside a podcast channel - you’re going to want to tune into this episode!

Here are the show highlights:

  • How a normally risk-averse entrepreneur makes the leap (10:03)
  • This is how powerful an emotionally appealing story can be (14:54)
  • Podcasts can get you seen and heard for a minimal investment (17:26)
  • How to do marketing research without even trying (21:50)
  • What does the future of virtual communications/healthcare look like? (27:24)
  • If it sounds too good to be true - stop right there, sometimes it ISN’T (30:20)

Guest Bio

Kevin Dillard is CEO and Co-Founder of Clear Blue Smiles, a company that’s bringing the most comprehensive ortho-monitored remote treatment alignment options mainstream.

Kevin is an orthodontic industry thought leader and legal expert with nearly 18 years experience as an executive at the American Association of Orthodontists (AAO).

He was also the founder and co-host of the AAO’s Business of Orthodontics podcast series, which focused on legal risk management and business advice for orthodontists.

Kevin received his undergraduate degree from Southern Illinois University (Carbondale) before obtaining his law degree from Saint Louis University School of Law.

If you’d like to reach out to Kevin, you can email him at or reach out to him on his website at

You're listening to health innovators, a podcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adoptors who are shaping the future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back health innovators. On today's episode I have a really interesting guests with me, Kevin Dillard, who is the CEO and Co founder of clear blue smiles. Welcome to the show, Kevin. Thank you, Dr Roxy, good to be here. Thank you. It's great to have you so for our audience. Just to get started, tell us a little bit about your background and what you've been innovating these days. Yeah, well, thank you. So I'm a lawyer by trade. I spent about eighteen years at the American Association of worth, the bus here where I live in St Louis. Not a lot of people know, by the way, interesting, interesting aside, that modern orthodomic section you've betted in St Louis, which is why the Association is here. It's the oldest largest dental specialty in the world actually and has a pretty large breach. Yeah, so I spent eighteen years there, most of the time as their general counsel, so the chief lawyer, chief spokesperson in later days about clearlaner therapy and some of the various companies that have innovated in the in the sector and what they've been doing with advertising and treatment. But at the entire eighteen years fan I spent in Washington DC doing some lobbying coordination with Congress and the Federal Administration and working with those folks and in generally getting to know and work with a lot of different ORTHODONIS, being inside the industry, working with the board of trustees, working with various volunteers and working with other companies that the service the industry, some of the big names that everybody would know. Yeah, and so then what led you to clear blue smiles? Well, for it lasted fives of years that I was there. I would say since about two thousand and fifteen. There was a there was a large influx of change in the industry where for the law for a very long time, decades actually, if not since the inception of modern orthodonics. Most Orthodonics, I would say ninety percent plus, were done entirely by Orthodonis in a brick and mortar setting, where you go with the traditional I mean almost everybody's had it at some point. Right you go to the Orthodox for you're thirteen, fourteen years old, you get your braces, you're treated for a couple years ago into retention and you're going to the Orthodois once a month. Around two thousand one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine, the big innovation was does aligne Align Corporation. They came in with the really the first big brand, name clear line or therapy, which could then take some people smiles and, instead of using the metal brackets and wires, be able to move people's teeth with plastic, which a lot of folks at the time, especially adults, really like, because adults in particular...

...don't want to be burden with the stigma perhaps of wearing metal braces. And then in about twenty fifteen a couple of companies came in that are big names traded on the NASDAC right now, and they said, well, you don't even need to see an orthodoxed or dentist you. All you need to do is take an impression of your teeth with, you know, originally with the old what they call Alganitner pvc things that most people had, if they had braces, where you can a bite in this gooy stuff. I've done that it's not a pleasant experience, but they would. What they would do is sell those kits and then a dentist Orthodox would review that record and then design a treatment based around clear liner therapy and then mail it to the patient. Well, they could afford to do that for much cheaper than a traditional brick and order practice. For a variety of reasons. There's no brick and mortar orthodox to pay, no landscaping bills, no dental assistants, no x Ray Machines. But they were missing, though, and what I would often say when I was a spokesperson on this exact issue with the American Association Orthodox reporters would always want to know, but what's wrong with this? And and I would say we'll step back and let's not talk about it in terms of right or wrong. Let's talk about what the patient is not getting as opposed to a traditional brick and order practice. And there are a number of things that they're not getting. One is assurance that it's even healthy to move any teeth, regardless of how bad their buiter, or occlusion is what they call it in the trade, because if you don't know what the roots look like underneath the gun line and if you don't have a real good picture of your gun health or period donal health, you don't know if it's safe to move those teeth and if you start applying force to teeth you could actually lose the teeth or lose gum Tishue, and in fact there were some media reports of that happening. At the same time, though, it became pretty clear that the traditional Orthodonis were pushing back against any kind of innovation. They wanted to dig their heels in and say every patient, regardless, should go to a brick and mortal orthodonis. And I and a couple of orthodoms that I had known for a very long time, one in particular bill crutchfield. I had known him for since two thousand and four, I believe, through various work at the AO. We kind of had a similar idea and said, well, there is a way to do this. Not every single patient is a matter of fact, quite a few, maybe even a majority, don't need to come into an orthodonic practice once a month and once every other month and they can still have their orthodonics achieved safely and effectively. You just need two things, and those two things are comprehensive diagnostics at the beginning of treatment to make sure that that treatment is safe, and then rigorous ongoing monitoring. Virtually. If we put those two things together, we believe that even the most established traditional Orthodonis would take a look at that and say, you know what, I would be comfortable treating patients in this scenario. Yeah, even if I...

...never see them. I just need to see the diagnostics and leverage the incredible artificial intelligence it's available with simply with patients using their smartphones. Had to be able to take pictures and videos their own tie. So what we did is say, you know, this is it is possible for some patients to do it safely and effectively. We need those two things. So what I think is so incredible about the story that you just told is, you know, a lot of the research that I've done when it comes to market entry, like at what point, as an innovator, are we going to enter into the market? There's a lot of myth around being first to market. Is is like the winning strategy, right. So that would be kind of like Viz Aligne that you just described about twenty years ago. Right there. They create a whole new category within the space. But what you just described is a very thorough competitive analysis over a period of time and really being able to identify where that value gap is and then being able to create a positioning strategy in a brand, a whole platform or solution around that value gap. And I think that's a missed opportunity for most innovators to actually look at it really strategically like that and figure out what space that they could own as a as a late entrant or, you know, a last follower into the market. That's one of the advantages that you have is that you didn't have to go through the expense of creating the category or creating the solution right and creating awareness and education around this phenomenon. But what you do have is you get a chance to see where do they fail or where it where is the gap that they're they're still a market that's not being serviced, and then creating a solution or business model around that. And so it's just brilliant and I want to make sure I'm pointing that out for the listeners because it's something that we should all do. I find that sometimes people fall into the trap of why I want to go and be visilign and I want to meet you. That right. I want to create something that's just like them, because they've got significant market share, they've had a lot of success, so let me go and do what they did. And it's it can be, but it's usually not a profitable it's. So you might have a business, but it might not be a profitable business, whereas what you're doing, what you're describing, is really very different. Brilliant. Yeah, no, I appreciate that and it as a matter of fact, me to your point. We had when we were you know, in every business cycle or in every business start up, you kind of have the consulting, the concept and before you you go forward with with branding and spend the money on websites and starting to go go to market strategy, so speak. You think a good idea, which is what we did, was take it to some of the people that we really trust, and and Orthodonis and and people in the industry, not necessary early Orthodos, but marketing folks who had worked at some of these big companies, and said here's our concept. You know, what do you think of this?...

In many of them actually suggested we do exactly what you said. You know. Well, why don't you go for those really the low end market, the the low value targets, the the very cheap, for lack of a better term, cheap strategy, because there's a lot of money down there. And the response was well, you know, first of all it's of crowded. I mean there's there's a number of businesses who are doing that smile direct, club bite candid or kind of operating on that man on that model, along with some others, and we said that's not what we're in it for. We're in it because we love the field of Orthodonics and we want to protect their expertise because we respect the expertise. Even though I'm not in Orthodonost, I benefited from a very, you know, complex case when I was thirteen years if I was thirteen years old now, I would not be a candidate for my own company's product. I would necessarily have to go to an orthodonost and we kind of saw that market slipping away from any of them and we said we're in this to help existing Orthodonos, traditional Orthodox to be able to offer a service that competes at a very, very high level with some of those other people who are in taking that market share away from them. So, yeah, I agree. I think the one of the things that think is so interesting, and I want to just kind of dig into this a little bit, is your you're a lawyer by by trade, right, by your background and what I think of lawyers and legal teams that I've worked with over the years, they're usually really risk averse. Yeah, right, so someone like myself that comes from a marketing background, there's usually a lot of wrestling that happens between marketing and legal right, like yes, we can say this, no we can't. Yes, we can build, no we can't, you know kind of thing. And and so I you know, in all of my two thousand and twenty five years a career, I've never come across and a lawyer that was also an entrepreneur, because it's like such a high risk, you know, like bold move, right. It's like you, you believe in something that doesn't exist, right, your pioneer change agent. So just kind of talk about what that journey was like for you from, I don't want to say transitioning the way, because you're still a lawyer, transitioning into the world of entrepreneurship. Well, that's a great question. I appreciate the point being made there. You know, I worked. I spent my entire time as where I'm kind of unique in this regarded legal field. I spent the entire time as a lawyer, as an inhouse corporate council, mm, which is two very different animal than law firms, and we work with many, many law firms that I hired just to do outside legal work, from from contract work to to probably the most important thing in any trader so is ation, which is an I trust, and that's where it gets really you have to a lawyer there has to be very sensitive to statements, actions, motives that could be anti competitive. Yeah, in the..., because what you essentially have an association is a group of competitors coming together. There's the obvious natural human tendency to protect their market, protect the prices, protect margins, and you know what a free market society with the Sherman and I Trust Act. You just that's just not legal. But at the same time my job there was both to protect the association and it but not just say you can't do that. I was leaned on very heavily there to say not just you can't do that, but if this is your ultimate goal, there's an you can't do this, but you can do a, B and C and in another way to do it. So it was forced me to be in a more strategic role, which I enjoyed in saying, you know, there might be some things you can't do that you want to do, but if the end goal is something that there's another way to do it, it would be okay, which in that strategic thinking works very closely and as in as I think served me well in and developing strategies for business, not just legal strategies, but developing how we attack certain market or roll about putting together certain deals. So did you leave the Aio and decide to start clear loose smiles? Was it that decision that you were making of like I'm leaving in house counsel, I'm leaving this kind of corporate job, if you will, to be an entrepreneur, or was it some other transition? You know, I love the fact when I was there there was a there was a leadership change and at the top of the CEO and there was a lot of change going on and I know it. Maybe this sounds a little corny, I don't know, but I thought at the time it's time to I've been there for eighteen years. I have seen the market move, I see what's happening. I'm going to be able to affect change and be able to move into this market to innovate in a way that protects the profession that I respect in a profitable way, and I can, I can affect that change better on the outside than I can on the inside because, you know, I'm a energetic kind of go get or kind of guy, strategic thinker, and associations, for the value that they serve in our society, can sometimes move very slowly and be very bureaucratic and you're dealing with, you know, in the case the Aoh, there's there's a you know, probably five hundred Orthodonis who are involved in leadership at some level that have a say in what's happening, and you know, I love them all. They're great people, but in any kind of organization like that, things moves more slowly than in in an organization that were there are three decision makers. So it's been an it's been a pleasure kind of transitioning out of that to be able to say if the owners of the company and the chief employees come together and say we have an idea. We want to do this if it makes sense. We don't need to go through a nine month process of councils and committees boards... be able to do it. We just do it and that's right. That's a great thing. Yeah, so let's talk about so we kind of touched on positioning a little bit, but messaging, right. So what was what was that journey like for you from a messaging strategy of like really being able to hone in that succinct value proposition in a way that's going to resignate quickly and significantly with your with the target audience? Yeah, so, you know, one of the benefits of being at the AOS I was privy to a lot of a lot of information, you know, that was publicly available, that you just kind of see talked about and you know, back we were talking a few minutes ago about the market and where we fit in the market and a lot of challenges of startups have that fortunately, we don't have, is is proving why they need to exist or proving that there's a market there. In our case, it was really obvious that there's obviously a market for orthodonic treatment where you don't have to go to an office. That's obvious. Those those companies are out there. They're worth billions of dollars. There's obviously see a market for brick and mortar, high touch, high quality, very expensive treatment. They've been around for a hundred years and it was just obvious to us that the vast middle market here is is available. To say well, we you know you can, but if you don't want treatment for you or your child that you're not completely comfortable with and you still don't want to go to the Orthodox, there's another option and that's us. But we also like to tell a story and and I'm happy to say, our firm that we work with to come up with our brand, our logo, has one some more words recently about our logo, because we like to tell a story, which I think is important for any start up, no matter what they're doing, is to explain not only what they do, obviously in their place in the market, but have a little bit of fun with it and and and tell an actual story that kind of makes sense, which I'm which I'm happy and I'm glad when we started this company and came up with a logo design in the name that we have a story and we're proud of to tell it to patients and doctors. Yeah, and I think we can't ever over estimate the power of storytelling, in the role that storytelling plays in that commercialization journey. You know, right able to like create that emotional appeal and be a will have a story that people can resonate with and then be able to have word of mouth marketing. Now they're sharing that story with other people. It's just because it's so powerful. Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation station. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy? I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot...

...kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities learn more at legacy and DNACOM backslash kit. So you've done a really good job of creating a platform for your personal brand. That, then's also lends itself really well to the platform that you have, you know, for the company, and I was really surprised to, you know, see that you've launched your own podcast show. Typically I'm arm wrestling client trying to convince them that this is like the most incredible business strategy that they should be deploying right now, and you know. And so what was that like for you, making that decision, and how does all of the stuff that you've done in the past kind of also lead into this platform? You? Yeah, well, I'll start with the past. In about five or six years ago, we're going at the American Association worth it us. We had the idea to start a podcast there and it was just audio only at the time, because this is before pre covid and before the the zoom became ubiquitous, and it was away at the association to kind of cut through some of that rent take, you know I mentioned earlier. Sometimes takes nine months and there were several print vehicles there that we would use communicate the membership. But we had the idea, you know, we could do this very cost effectively and very quickly. Just cut a video all, I'm sorry, cut cut, cut a podcast audio and one of the folks in the marketing that had worked there for a long time, it had used to work for one of the big radio stations here in St Louis Camo, actually had a great radio voice and we would just sit down and chat and we talked about some of the news happening in the industry, you know, Supreme Court case to dealt with dinnal board regulations, or we would talk about a new legal contract guide that we had put out on a website and it took maybe an hour to produce and to do in a couple hundred dollars in equipment and to make it sound really good. And what do you know, within you know, a couple weeks, we had thousands of hits on these things and people were were writing in and saying, you know, cover this topic or cover that topic. And the funny thing of it is, rocks Dr Roxic, it all kind of started with self interest because, as a lawyer at the Aoh, I was not. Your honesty. Well, you know, it would. We were we would get calls. While it wasn't our job to be the personal lawyer for members of the AO, my assistant and I would would feel probably between the two of us, ten to fifteen calls a day from Orthodonis saying, you know, what do I do if a patient stops paying me, or what do I do if this that? And I had the idea. I was like, we need to...

...just cut the standard answer that we say ten times a day and mass disseminate it, which is what we did and and that kind of worked. So it kind of saved some some phone calls, for for my assistant and myself. But you know, having gone through that experience, then moving forward into clear blue smiles, we thought because a part of our corporate responsibility and industry is preserving the integrity and the expertise Orthodox, we want to kind of tell their story and we want to take some of the top Orthodonis, whether they're involved with with clear blue smiles or not, because between me and the other founders, we know a lot of folks who have a very interesting story and Orthodox and we want to talk to them it, talk about their stories, talk about where they moved to school, what led them into the practice. Some of them, you know, it's a family business to their father's grandfathers were in it, others it wasn't, and and just talk about kind of what led them into it, some of the things that they have experiences in North Adonis that that gives them faith in the industry and faith in what they do because, you know, almost without exception, of the thousands of Orthodonmos I've met, they all have one thing in common. They all have a deep heart to help people and they get great satisfaction in taking a child who, you know, for instance, has a terrible maleclusion plus Palette even and donating the time or really working with the parents to give that child a smile that they go from, you know, walking around school and never wanting a smile or doing this to be having having the selfconfidence with the great smile. And so we want to talk to them about that and just talk about the industry and and hopefully encourage more patients and and more dental students to seek that out of a profession so that it just keeps getting better and better. So what kind of business impact has the has the show had? And maybe it hasn't just yet, but you know, when I think about you know, it's it can be a lot of heavy lifting to do it. There's tons of shows that start out but they don't stay consistent with it because you've got, you know, to kind of commit on a consistent basis to record the episode, you know the kind of post production of that, and so there's always a question around like, well, what is the Roi of a podcast? I was that really going to impact our business. So what's your perspective on that? You know, it's impossible to tell our lie just yet because we've as just as kind of a new initiative and, frankly, I got to tell you you know, for well, it takes time and in time is opportunity cost. At the same time, you know, I'm not too concerned about a return on investment in terms of profit. I look at it in terms more of an ideological perspective, kind of like I did when we...

...started the company, like we're in this for more than profit. We're in this to tell a story, to innovate, to protect the integrity of Orthodonics and, you know, if we don't get thousands and thousands of viewers, or if we don't get more business from it, that's okay. We'll probably continue doing it just because we have a passion for telling that story and upholding the tradition of the profession. Yeah, yeah, well, a couple of things that come to mind and how I've used it, because I've been doing it for a couple of years now, is, you know, it's market research, right. So, yeah, it's true. You're staying on, you're staying close to the customer on a regular basis to be able to understand because you know, as customers, we don't we're not static, right, and so if there's needs change, you've got an immediate pulse on that because you're having conversations with them. It allows you to kind of really stay much more customer focus as opposed to like the technology or solution focused, right. And then content. I mean, when you're talking about building awareness and generating demand, like douce one show, one episode, and have thirty to fifty pieces of content, like, like you said early, are social media teams love this stuff, right, and it's original content. It's not going to be something that you know, you just that's like out there on a regular basis. You've got these a credible stories to be able to tell. Besides the fact that, from what I sense from you, you're having conversations with people that could be your potential customers. So you're not pitching them on the PODCAST, but you're building a relationship and that's where it all begins right, right, and absolutely and actually and miss that aspect of it. One of my favorite things that I did at the Ao is, and this is another by the way, it's self interest kind of thing that turned into something better, to kind of pre emp some of those legal questions we get. We designed a legal risk management course for orthodomic residents so before they go out to practice, we design, like here, the sixteen things, the sixteen legal issues you'll face before you ever open your proud within the first year of having a practice, whether you're in business with somebody else, for in your solo practice, anything from contracts to standard ethics kind of things. And I would travel around and I went everywhere, from from New York Nyu to Florida to California and everywhere in between, and I would always before I would get into it, I would introduce myself and then I would have each of the residents talk about themselves and you know, most most of these courses were for between six and eighteen orthomic residents, not not a huge crowd, but a good intimate crowd, good number to be able to get to know them and I would always ask them three questions. Where they played or how they plan to practice and what kind of practice they are going to be in, if they signed a contract with that yet, where they're going to live? And then, sorry, the fourth question was what about the industry concerns you the most? Not You specifically, but what about generally the industry? Yeah, and... would you talked about. I didn't even know to the time at that was valuable market research for what I'm doing now and you know, being able to ask this in questions and talk to folks and get that kind of connections. You're right, it is market research, even though it's not really the reason we do it right. It's huge. It really is huge and even if you don't document it, you remember those conversations and we're looking at your growth strategy going forward and whatever lane or of view that would be, you kind of remember. And then what up. I love is also like the more people you interview, then the more patterns you start to see. So you probably saw that in your seminar. Students. You go on her now you know what like the more Jority of them are talking about this and and then there's just a whole lot of implications of just being able to know them better. MMM Yeah, it's a matter of fact. They one hundred percent of the hundreds of residents I talked to answered that fourth question the same way, that question being what concerns you the most about about the future of the industry? I don't remember any of them saying anything other than I'm really concerned at this rise of what they would call do it yourself dentistry, and do it yourself worth backs is going to devalue our role in patient self. And I mean there you go. I mean that's like I got a business to you. I I can business this for me and for you. Here we go. And I didn't know it, but you know, several years later that became sort of the reason for our existence. Yeah, what I think is so interesting about what you're describing here, whether it was, you know, intentional or not, is you're really talking about this hybrid model, right, and so in hindsight when we look back. You know, prior to covid you had tons of teas that really focused on brick and mortar businesses and with all a lot of that drying up, especially in healthcare, with access and, you know, trade shows and you know, just being able to travel and all that stuff being changed and coming to a complete halt. You know, for almost a year and a half, lots of people shifted through virtual engagement, right tell a health you know. So you kind of would doing this, I guess, before Covid. But but now now, a lot of businesses, a lot of entrepreneurs and innovators or kind of at this crossroad. Do they go all the way back to brick and mortar? Do they stay virtual? And I think what we're going to find to be more successful is this hybrid that you just described, giving consumers the convenience of doing whatever they want to do, wherever they want to do it. HMM, but not diminishing the facetoface stuff that still has to take place. Right, that's exactly right. And and you know, I think what while we didn't know it, of course, when we started launching the brand and and and you didn't know directing with doctors rbal pandemic. We didn't do there would be this pandemic. But yeah, it probably, I mean we saw, I...

...and the other founders probably were for seeing before the pandemic. We are for seeing a move towards this kind of model and which really what we would describe it as. It's a Tele orthodonic model. For Traditional Orthodonis, it's kind of helping them move their practice into the practice the future where they can spend more time on patients that really need the in person help and still have revenue streams and have a lot of patients that they can monitor virtually and it actually makes their practice more efficient to be able to do it that way. But anyway, you know, I we thought we kind of foresaw that moving towards that more of that kind of model within like five to sect years pre covid. I think now Covid, certainly in the minds of the consumer, obviously has changed a lot of things. If it can be done virtually, it's going to be done virtually, from grocery delivery to medicine. For a lot of Orthodonmis I think it indent us to I think it sped up their timeline to come to that conclusion from five to six years to almost immediately, if not dirty gaming, right, and you know it's it's obvious to everybody. I think that that market is there and that people, if they can do it virtually and they're in, they're assured and they know and they feel comfortable that what they're getting is the same quality, or if not better quality than the in person interaction, they're going to do it virtually. Yeah. So the last question I have for you before we get before we wrap up here, is around B Toc B Tobb Toc right. So what were some of the things that you kind of wrestled with or contemplated around your commercialization strategy? You know, you're in a multisided market very similar to healthcare right, where you know there has to have that the beat of be in the BDC to involved, and I think that you guys have done a really good job at doing both well. So just talk about that a little bit for our listeners. Sure. Well, it's been an interesting, very steep learning Herve because there are some companies that we've mentioned, you know, that do entirely advertising direct consumer, which of course, is extremely expensive. Yeah, because you're not only trying to build brand aware and as you're trying to condense them of something. We are kind of a hybrid model. We Are we are advertising and working with doctors and dentists, many of whom, by the way, it takes some time to explain because it's a new model and they don't quite understand it, and once they understand what we're doing, they think, will wait a minute. Doesn't cost any money. You're sending me patients, you're paying me. This is the money out of pot be true, miss and that, honestly, I got to tell you that that's probably our biggest our biggest roadblock is in talking to dennist in saying no, this isn't too good... be true. It's a new way of doing business. It's a little bit more risk for us, of course, because we're taking some of the financial risk, but but you know, that's that's the bargain you have to do at some point. But what we're finding is the direct consumer speaking directly, by marketing direct consumer. Actually we don't have to do a lot of it to figure out what really works well and what has worked well is sale to the patients that were going after, which generally it's parents of children who are aware that this direct consumer if you want to call it, that model, where you never have to see anybody, exists, but they would never trust that for their own kids or themselves. But they are aware of that. Virtual treatments possible, and so here is the perfect marriage of tradition and technology. Yeah, we're one visit gets them everything they need and then, and then, with a minute or two with their smart phone a month, they can do their virtual checkups. So what we're finding is we can take that marketing in, take it to prospective Dennis that we're working with and say, look, this is what we're telling people. We have people, we have patience, potential patients coming into us. Now, I won't say in drugs, but but a lot. And you know, here's an existing patient base for you that we can link you up with and and and give them a service that you are well positioned to provide. Sure, yeah, and WHO's going to turn that down? Who's going to turn that down exactly? Yeah. Well, Derek, thank you so much. It's been such a great opportunity to speak with you today and thank you for sharing so many insights with us. How To folks get Ahold of you? If anybody wants to reach out to you after you know they can always check out our website. WWW. That clear blue smilescom. You can reach my email directly. It's just it's pretty easy. It's Kevin at clear blue smilescom. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who shared the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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