Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 88 · 7 months ago

What successful followers do: Time-to-market decisions w/Kevin Dillard

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Historically risk-averse entrepreneurs are the unicorns of start-ups: myths, legends, and, well, really hard to find!

Finding one who not only made the leap but made it successfully? Yeah, we’re talking Holy Grail material now.

Kevin Dillard is one such unicorn. Throwing risk to the wind, he left his job as in-house counsel for the American Association of Orthodontists to launch Clear Blue Smiles.

Knowing he could make a positive difference for both orthodontists and patients was his foundation - and a keen nose for strategic marketing was his ace in the hole.

With over 18 years in the industries he served, Kevin hit the market late - but with all the right strategies in place, and he is making his mark in a big way.

If you want to hear about Kevin’s journey - and how he found unintentional marketing research gold inside a podcast channel - you’re going to want to tune into this episode!

Here are the show highlights:

  • How a normally risk-averse entrepreneur makes the leap (10:03)
  • This is how powerful an emotionally appealing story can be (14:54)
  • Podcasts can get you seen and heard for a minimal investment (17:26)
  • How to do marketing research without even trying (21:50)
  • What does the future of virtual communications/healthcare look like? (27:24)
  • If it sounds too good to be true - stop right there, sometimes it ISN’T (30:20)

Guest Bio

Kevin Dillard is CEO and Co-Founder of Clear Blue Smiles, a company that’s bringing the most comprehensive ortho-monitored remote treatment alignment options mainstream.

Kevin is an orthodontic industry thought leader and legal expert with nearly 18 years experience as an executive at the American Association of Orthodontists (AAO).

He was also the founder and co-host of the AAO’s Business of Orthodontics podcast series, which focused on legal risk management and business advice for orthodontists.

Kevin received his undergraduate degree from Southern Illinois University (Carbondale) before obtaining his law degree from Saint Louis University School of Law.

If you’d like to reach out to Kevin, you can email him at Kevin@clearbluesmiles.com or reach out to him on his website at clearbluesmiles.com
 

You're listening to health innovators, apodcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adoptors who are shapingthe future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back healthinnovators. On today's episode I have a really interesting guests with me,Kevin Dillard, who is the CEO and Co founder of clear blue smiles.Welcome to the show, Kevin. Thank you, Dr Roxy, good tobe here. Thank you. It's great to have you so for our audience. Just to get started, tell us a little bit about your background andwhat you've been innovating these days. Yeah, well, thank you. So I'ma lawyer by trade. I spent about eighteen years at the American Associationof worth, the bus here where I live in St Louis. Not alot of people know, by the way, interesting, interesting aside, that modernorthodomic section you've betted in St Louis, which is why the Association is here. It's the oldest largest dental specialty in the world actually and has apretty large breach. Yeah, so I spent eighteen years there, most ofthe time as their general counsel, so the chief lawyer, chief spokesperson inlater days about clearlaner therapy and some of the various companies that have innovated inthe in the sector and what they've been doing with advertising and treatment. Butat the entire eighteen years fan I spent in Washington DC doing some lobbying coordinationwith Congress and the Federal Administration and working with those folks and in generally gettingto know and work with a lot of different ORTHODONIS, being inside the industry, working with the board of trustees, working with various volunteers and working withother companies that the service the industry, some of the big names that everybodywould know. Yeah, and so then what led you to clear blue smiles? Well, for it lasted fives of years that I was there. Iwould say since about two thousand and fifteen. There was a there was a largeinflux of change in the industry where for the law for a very longtime, decades actually, if not since the inception of modern orthodonics. MostOrthodonics, I would say ninety percent plus, were done entirely by Orthodonis in abrick and mortar setting, where you go with the traditional I mean almosteverybody's had it at some point. Right you go to the Orthodox for you'rethirteen, fourteen years old, you get your braces, you're treated for acouple years ago into retention and you're going to the Orthodois once a month.Around two thousand one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine, the big innovation wasdoes aligne Align Corporation. They came in with the really the first big brand, name clear line or therapy, which could then take some people smiles and, instead of using the metal brackets and wires, be able to move people'steeth with plastic, which a lot of folks at the time, especially adults, really like, because adults in particular...

...don't want to be burden with thestigma perhaps of wearing metal braces. And then in about twenty fifteen a coupleof companies came in that are big names traded on the NASDAC right now,and they said, well, you don't even need to see an orthodoxed ordentist you. All you need to do is take an impression of your teethwith, you know, originally with the old what they call Alganitner pvc thingsthat most people had, if they had braces, where you can a bitein this gooy stuff. I've done that it's not a pleasant experience, butthey would. What they would do is sell those kits and then a dentistOrthodox would review that record and then design a treatment based around clear liner therapyand then mail it to the patient. Well, they could afford to dothat for much cheaper than a traditional brick and order practice. For a varietyof reasons. There's no brick and mortar orthodox to pay, no landscaping bills, no dental assistants, no x Ray Machines. But they were missing,though, and what I would often say when I was a spokesperson on thisexact issue with the American Association Orthodox reporters would always want to know, butwhat's wrong with this? And and I would say we'll step back and let'snot talk about it in terms of right or wrong. Let's talk about whatthe patient is not getting as opposed to a traditional brick and order practice.And there are a number of things that they're not getting. One is assurancethat it's even healthy to move any teeth, regardless of how bad their buiter,or occlusion is what they call it in the trade, because if youdon't know what the roots look like underneath the gun line and if you don'thave a real good picture of your gun health or period donal health, youdon't know if it's safe to move those teeth and if you start applying forceto teeth you could actually lose the teeth or lose gum Tishue, and infact there were some media reports of that happening. At the same time,though, it became pretty clear that the traditional Orthodonis were pushing back against anykind of innovation. They wanted to dig their heels in and say every patient, regardless, should go to a brick and mortal orthodonis. And I anda couple of orthodoms that I had known for a very long time, onein particular bill crutchfield. I had known him for since two thousand and four, I believe, through various work at the AO. We kind of hada similar idea and said, well, there is a way to do this. Not every single patient is a matter of fact, quite a few,maybe even a majority, don't need to come into an orthodonic practice once amonth and once every other month and they can still have their orthodonics achieved safelyand effectively. You just need two things, and those two things are comprehensive diagnosticsat the beginning of treatment to make sure that that treatment is safe,and then rigorous ongoing monitoring. Virtually. If we put those two things together, we believe that even the most established traditional Orthodonis would take a look atthat and say, you know what, I would be comfortable treating patients inthis scenario. Yeah, even if I...

...never see them. I just needto see the diagnostics and leverage the incredible artificial intelligence it's available with simply withpatients using their smartphones. Had to be able to take pictures and videos theirown tie. So what we did is say, you know, this isit is possible for some patients to do it safely and effectively. We needthose two things. So what I think is so incredible about the story thatyou just told is, you know, a lot of the research that I'vedone when it comes to market entry, like at what point, as aninnovator, are we going to enter into the market? There's a lot ofmyth around being first to market. Is is like the winning strategy, right. So that would be kind of like Viz Aligne that you just described abouttwenty years ago. Right there. They create a whole new category within thespace. But what you just described is a very thorough competitive analysis over aperiod of time and really being able to identify where that value gap is andthen being able to create a positioning strategy in a brand, a whole platformor solution around that value gap. And I think that's a missed opportunity formost innovators to actually look at it really strategically like that and figure out whatspace that they could own as a as a late entrant or, you know, a last follower into the market. That's one of the advantages that youhave is that you didn't have to go through the expense of creating the categoryor creating the solution right and creating awareness and education around this phenomenon. Butwhat you do have is you get a chance to see where do they failor where it where is the gap that they're they're still a market that's notbeing serviced, and then creating a solution or business model around that. Andso it's just brilliant and I want to make sure I'm pointing that out forthe listeners because it's something that we should all do. I find that sometimespeople fall into the trap of why I want to go and be visilign andI want to meet you. That right. I want to create something that's justlike them, because they've got significant market share, they've had a lotof success, so let me go and do what they did. And it'sit can be, but it's usually not a profitable it's. So you mighthave a business, but it might not be a profitable business, whereas whatyou're doing, what you're describing, is really very different. Brilliant. Yeah, no, I appreciate that and it as a matter of fact, meto your point. We had when we were you know, in every businesscycle or in every business start up, you kind of have the consulting,the concept and before you you go forward with with branding and spend the moneyon websites and starting to go go to market strategy, so speak. Youthink a good idea, which is what we did, was take it tosome of the people that we really trust, and and Orthodonis and and people inthe industry, not necessary early Orthodos, but marketing folks who had worked atsome of these big companies, and said here's our concept. You know, what do you think of this?...

In many of them actually suggested wedo exactly what you said. You know. Well, why don't you go forthose really the low end market, the the low value targets, thethe very cheap, for lack of a better term, cheap strategy, becausethere's a lot of money down there. And the response was well, youknow, first of all it's of crowded. I mean there's there's a number ofbusinesses who are doing that smile direct, club bite candid or kind of operatingon that man on that model, along with some others, and wesaid that's not what we're in it for. We're in it because we love thefield of Orthodonics and we want to protect their expertise because we respect theexpertise. Even though I'm not in Orthodonost, I benefited from a very, youknow, complex case when I was thirteen years if I was thirteen yearsold now, I would not be a candidate for my own company's product.I would necessarily have to go to an orthodonost and we kind of saw thatmarket slipping away from any of them and we said we're in this to helpexisting Orthodonos, traditional Orthodox to be able to offer a service that competes ata very, very high level with some of those other people who are intaking that market share away from them. So, yeah, I agree.I think the one of the things that think is so interesting, and Iwant to just kind of dig into this a little bit, is your you'rea lawyer by by trade, right, by your background and what I thinkof lawyers and legal teams that I've worked with over the years, they're usuallyreally risk averse. Yeah, right, so someone like myself that comes froma marketing background, there's usually a lot of wrestling that happens between marketing andlegal right, like yes, we can say this, no we can't.Yes, we can build, no we can't, you know kind of thing. And and so I you know, in all of my two thousand andtwenty five years a career, I've never come across and a lawyer that wasalso an entrepreneur, because it's like such a high risk, you know,like bold move, right. It's like you, you believe in something thatdoesn't exist, right, your pioneer change agent. So just kind of talkabout what that journey was like for you from, I don't want to saytransitioning the way, because you're still a lawyer, transitioning into the world ofentrepreneurship. Well, that's a great question. I appreciate the point being made there. You know, I worked. I spent my entire time as whereI'm kind of unique in this regarded legal field. I spent the entire timeas a lawyer, as an inhouse corporate council, mm, which is twovery different animal than law firms, and we work with many, many lawfirms that I hired just to do outside legal work, from from contract workto to probably the most important thing in any trader so is ation, whichis an I trust, and that's where it gets really you have to alawyer there has to be very sensitive to statements, actions, motives that couldbe anti competitive. Yeah, in the...

...market, because what you essentially havean association is a group of competitors coming together. There's the obvious natural humantendency to protect their market, protect the prices, protect margins, and youknow what a free market society with the Sherman and I Trust Act. Youjust that's just not legal. But at the same time my job there wasboth to protect the association and it but not just say you can't do that. I was leaned on very heavily there to say not just you can't dothat, but if this is your ultimate goal, there's an you can't dothis, but you can do a, B and C and in another wayto do it. So it was forced me to be in a more strategicrole, which I enjoyed in saying, you know, there might be somethings you can't do that you want to do, but if the end goalis something that there's another way to do it, it would be okay,which in that strategic thinking works very closely and as in as I think servedme well in and developing strategies for business, not just legal strategies, but developinghow we attack certain market or roll about putting together certain deals. Sodid you leave the Aio and decide to start clear loose smiles? Was itthat decision that you were making of like I'm leaving in house counsel, I'mleaving this kind of corporate job, if you will, to be an entrepreneur, or was it some other transition? You know, I love the factwhen I was there there was a there was a leadership change and at thetop of the CEO and there was a lot of change going on and Iknow it. Maybe this sounds a little corny, I don't know, butI thought at the time it's time to I've been there for eighteen years.I have seen the market move, I see what's happening. I'm going tobe able to affect change and be able to move into this market to innovatein a way that protects the profession that I respect in a profitable way,and I can, I can affect that change better on the outside than Ican on the inside because, you know, I'm a energetic kind of go getor kind of guy, strategic thinker, and associations, for the value thatthey serve in our society, can sometimes move very slowly and be verybureaucratic and you're dealing with, you know, in the case the Aoh, there'sthere's a you know, probably five hundred Orthodonis who are involved in leadershipat some level that have a say in what's happening, and you know,I love them all. They're great people, but in any kind of organization likethat, things moves more slowly than in in an organization that were thereare three decision makers. So it's been an it's been a pleasure kind oftransitioning out of that to be able to say if the owners of the companyand the chief employees come together and say we have an idea. We wantto do this if it makes sense. We don't need to go through anine month process of councils and committees boards...

...to be able to do it.We just do it and that's right. That's a great thing. Yeah,so let's talk about so we kind of touched on positioning a little bit,but messaging, right. So what was what was that journey like for youfrom a messaging strategy of like really being able to hone in that succinct valueproposition in a way that's going to resignate quickly and significantly with your with thetarget audience? Yeah, so, you know, one of the benefits ofbeing at the AOS I was privy to a lot of a lot of information, you know, that was publicly available, that you just kind of see talkedabout and you know, back we were talking a few minutes ago aboutthe market and where we fit in the market and a lot of challenges ofstartups have that fortunately, we don't have, is is proving why they need toexist or proving that there's a market there. In our case, itwas really obvious that there's obviously a market for orthodonic treatment where you don't haveto go to an office. That's obvious. Those those companies are out there.They're worth billions of dollars. There's obviously see a market for brick andmortar, high touch, high quality, very expensive treatment. They've been aroundfor a hundred years and it was just obvious to us that the vast middlemarket here is is available. To say well, we you know you can, but if you don't want treatment for you or your child that you're notcompletely comfortable with and you still don't want to go to the Orthodox, there'sanother option and that's us. But we also like to tell a story andand I'm happy to say, our firm that we work with to come upwith our brand, our logo, has one some more words recently about ourlogo, because we like to tell a story, which I think is importantfor any start up, no matter what they're doing, is to explain notonly what they do, obviously in their place in the market, but havea little bit of fun with it and and and tell an actual story thatkind of makes sense, which I'm which I'm happy and I'm glad when westarted this company and came up with a logo design in the name that wehave a story and we're proud of to tell it to patients and doctors.Yeah, and I think we can't ever over estimate the power of storytelling,in the role that storytelling plays in that commercialization journey. You know, rightable to like create that emotional appeal and be a will have a story thatpeople can resonate with and then be able to have word of mouth marketing.Now they're sharing that story with other people. It's just because it's so powerful.Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation station. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to surviveand thrive in the new covid economy? I want every health innovator to findtheir most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covidproof your business pivot kit. The pivot...

...kit is a step by step frameworkthat helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories youneed to examine for a three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your waythrough this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategiesyou need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on criticaldetails and opportunities learn more at legacy and DNACOM backslash kit. So you've donea really good job of creating a platform for your personal brand. That,then's also lends itself really well to the platform that you have, you know, for the company, and I was really surprised to, you know,see that you've launched your own podcast show. Typically I'm arm wrestling client trying toconvince them that this is like the most incredible business strategy that they shouldbe deploying right now, and you know. And so what was that like foryou, making that decision, and how does all of the stuff thatyou've done in the past kind of also lead into this platform? You?Yeah, well, I'll start with the past. In about five or sixyears ago, we're going at the American Association worth it us. We hadthe idea to start a podcast there and it was just audio only at thetime, because this is before pre covid and before the the zoom became ubiquitous, and it was away at the association to kind of cut through some ofthat rent take, you know I mentioned earlier. Sometimes takes nine months andthere were several print vehicles there that we would use communicate the membership. Butwe had the idea, you know, we could do this very cost effectivelyand very quickly. Just cut a video all, I'm sorry, cut cut, cut a podcast audio and one of the folks in the marketing that hadworked there for a long time, it had used to work for one ofthe big radio stations here in St Louis Camo, actually had a great radiovoice and we would just sit down and chat and we talked about some ofthe news happening in the industry, you know, Supreme Court case to dealtwith dinnal board regulations, or we would talk about a new legal contract guidethat we had put out on a website and it took maybe an hour toproduce and to do in a couple hundred dollars in equipment and to make itsound really good. And what do you know, within you know, acouple weeks, we had thousands of hits on these things and people were werewriting in and saying, you know, cover this topic or cover that topic. And the funny thing of it is, rocks Dr Roxic, it all kindof started with self interest because, as a lawyer at the Aoh,I was not. Your honesty. Well, you know, it would. Wewere we would get calls. While it wasn't our job to be thepersonal lawyer for members of the AO, my assistant and I would would feelprobably between the two of us, ten to fifteen calls a day from Orthodonissaying, you know, what do I do if a patient stops paying me, or what do I do if this that? And I had the idea. I was like, we need to...

...just cut the standard answer that wesay ten times a day and mass disseminate it, which is what we didand and that kind of worked. So it kind of saved some some phonecalls, for for my assistant and myself. But you know, having gone throughthat experience, then moving forward into clear blue smiles, we thought becausea part of our corporate responsibility and industry is preserving the integrity and the expertiseOrthodox, we want to kind of tell their story and we want to takesome of the top Orthodonis, whether they're involved with with clear blue smiles ornot, because between me and the other founders, we know a lot offolks who have a very interesting story and Orthodox and we want to talk tothem it, talk about their stories, talk about where they moved to school, what led them into the practice. Some of them, you know,it's a family business to their father's grandfathers were in it, others it wasn't, and and just talk about kind of what led them into it, someof the things that they have experiences in North Adonis that that gives them faithin the industry and faith in what they do because, you know, almostwithout exception, of the thousands of Orthodonmos I've met, they all have onething in common. They all have a deep heart to help people and theyget great satisfaction in taking a child who, you know, for instance, hasa terrible maleclusion plus Palette even and donating the time or really working withthe parents to give that child a smile that they go from, you know, walking around school and never wanting a smile or doing this to be havinghaving the selfconfidence with the great smile. And so we want to talk tothem about that and just talk about the industry and and hopefully encourage more patientsand and more dental students to seek that out of a profession so that itjust keeps getting better and better. So what kind of business impact has thehas the show had? And maybe it hasn't just yet, but you know, when I think about you know, it's it can be a lot ofheavy lifting to do it. There's tons of shows that start out but theydon't stay consistent with it because you've got, you know, to kind of commiton a consistent basis to record the episode, you know the kind ofpost production of that, and so there's always a question around like, well, what is the Roi of a podcast? I was that really going to impactour business. So what's your perspective on that? You know, it'simpossible to tell our lie just yet because we've as just as kind of anew initiative and, frankly, I got to tell you you know, forwell, it takes time and in time is opportunity cost. At the sametime, you know, I'm not too concerned about a return on investment interms of profit. I look at it in terms more of an ideological perspective, kind of like I did when we...

...started the company, like we're inthis for more than profit. We're in this to tell a story, toinnovate, to protect the integrity of Orthodonics and, you know, if wedon't get thousands and thousands of viewers, or if we don't get more businessfrom it, that's okay. We'll probably continue doing it just because we havea passion for telling that story and upholding the tradition of the profession. Yeah, yeah, well, a couple of things that come to mind and howI've used it, because I've been doing it for a couple of years now, is, you know, it's market research, right. So, yeah, it's true. You're staying on, you're staying close to the customer ona regular basis to be able to understand because you know, as customers,we don't we're not static, right, and so if there's needs change,you've got an immediate pulse on that because you're having conversations with them. Itallows you to kind of really stay much more customer focus as opposed to likethe technology or solution focused, right. And then content. I mean,when you're talking about building awareness and generating demand, like douce one show,one episode, and have thirty to fifty pieces of content, like, likeyou said early, are social media teams love this stuff, right, andit's original content. It's not going to be something that you know, youjust that's like out there on a regular basis. You've got these a crediblestories to be able to tell. Besides the fact that, from what Isense from you, you're having conversations with people that could be your potential customers. So you're not pitching them on the PODCAST, but you're building a relationshipand that's where it all begins right, right, and absolutely and actually andmiss that aspect of it. One of my favorite things that I did atthe Ao is, and this is another by the way, it's self interestkind of thing that turned into something better, to kind of pre emp some ofthose legal questions we get. We designed a legal risk management course fororthodomic residents so before they go out to practice, we design, like here, the sixteen things, the sixteen legal issues you'll face before you ever openyour proud within the first year of having a practice, whether you're in businesswith somebody else, for in your solo practice, anything from contracts to standardethics kind of things. And I would travel around and I went everywhere,from from New York Nyu to Florida to California and everywhere in between, andI would always before I would get into it, I would introduce myself andthen I would have each of the residents talk about themselves and you know,most most of these courses were for between six and eighteen orthomic residents, notnot a huge crowd, but a good intimate crowd, good number to beable to get to know them and I would always ask them three questions.Where they played or how they plan to practice and what kind of practice theyare going to be in, if they signed a contract with that yet,where they're going to live? And then, sorry, the fourth question was whatabout the industry concerns you the most? Not You specifically, but what aboutgenerally the industry? Yeah, and...

...it would you talked about. Ididn't even know to the time at that was valuable market research for what I'mdoing now and you know, being able to ask this in questions and talkto folks and get that kind of connections. You're right, it is market research, even though it's not really the reason we do it right. It'shuge. It really is huge and even if you don't document it, youremember those conversations and we're looking at your growth strategy going forward and whatever laneor of view that would be, you kind of remember. And then whatup. I love is also like the more people you interview, then themore patterns you start to see. So you probably saw that in your seminar. Students. You go on her now you know what like the more Jorityof them are talking about this and and then there's just a whole lot ofimplications of just being able to know them better. MMM Yeah, it's amatter of fact. They one hundred percent of the hundreds of residents I talkedto answered that fourth question the same way, that question being what concerns you themost about about the future of the industry? I don't remember any ofthem saying anything other than I'm really concerned at this rise of what they wouldcall do it yourself dentistry, and do it yourself worth backs is going todevalue our role in patient self. And I mean there you go. Imean that's like I got a business to you. I I can business thisfor me and for you. Here we go. And I didn't know it, but you know, several years later that became sort of the reason forour existence. Yeah, what I think is so interesting about what you're describinghere, whether it was, you know, intentional or not, is you're reallytalking about this hybrid model, right, and so in hindsight when we lookback. You know, prior to covid you had tons of teas thatreally focused on brick and mortar businesses and with all a lot of that dryingup, especially in healthcare, with access and, you know, trade showsand you know, just being able to travel and all that stuff being changedand coming to a complete halt. You know, for almost a year anda half, lots of people shifted through virtual engagement, right tell a healthyou know. So you kind of would doing this, I guess, beforeCovid. But but now now, a lot of businesses, a lot ofentrepreneurs and innovators or kind of at this crossroad. Do they go all theway back to brick and mortar? Do they stay virtual? And I thinkwhat we're going to find to be more successful is this hybrid that you justdescribed, giving consumers the convenience of doing whatever they want to do, whereverthey want to do it. HMM, but not diminishing the facetoface stuff thatstill has to take place. Right, that's exactly right. And and youknow, I think what while we didn't know it, of course, whenwe started launching the brand and and and you didn't know directing with doctors rbalpandemic. We didn't do there would be this pandemic. But yeah, itprobably, I mean we saw, I...

...and the other founders probably were forseeing before the pandemic. We are for seeing a move towards this kind ofmodel and which really what we would describe it as. It's a Tele orthodonicmodel. For Traditional Orthodonis, it's kind of helping them move their practice intothe practice the future where they can spend more time on patients that really needthe in person help and still have revenue streams and have a lot of patientsthat they can monitor virtually and it actually makes their practice more efficient to beable to do it that way. But anyway, you know, I wethought we kind of foresaw that moving towards that more of that kind of modelwithin like five to sect years pre covid. I think now Covid, certainly inthe minds of the consumer, obviously has changed a lot of things.If it can be done virtually, it's going to be done virtually, fromgrocery delivery to medicine. For a lot of Orthodonmis I think it indent usto I think it sped up their timeline to come to that conclusion from fiveto six years to almost immediately, if not dirty gaming, right, andyou know it's it's obvious to everybody. I think that that market is thereand that people, if they can do it virtually and they're in, they'reassured and they know and they feel comfortable that what they're getting is the samequality, or if not better quality than the in person interaction, they're goingto do it virtually. Yeah. So the last question I have for youbefore we get before we wrap up here, is around B Toc B Tobb Tocright. So what were some of the things that you kind of wrestledwith or contemplated around your commercialization strategy? You know, you're in a multisidedmarket very similar to healthcare right, where you know there has to have thatthe beat of be in the BDC to involved, and I think that youguys have done a really good job at doing both well. So just talkabout that a little bit for our listeners. Sure. Well, it's been aninteresting, very steep learning Herve because there are some companies that we've mentioned, you know, that do entirely advertising direct consumer, which of course,is extremely expensive. Yeah, because you're not only trying to build brand awareand as you're trying to condense them of something. We are kind of ahybrid model. We Are we are advertising and working with doctors and dentists,many of whom, by the way, it takes some time to explain becauseit's a new model and they don't quite understand it, and once they understandwhat we're doing, they think, will wait a minute. Doesn't cost anymoney. You're sending me patients, you're paying me. This is the moneyout of pot be true, miss and that, honestly, I got totell you that that's probably our biggest our biggest roadblock is in talking to dennistin saying no, this isn't too good...

...to be true. It's a newway of doing business. It's a little bit more risk for us, ofcourse, because we're taking some of the financial risk, but but you know, that's that's the bargain you have to do at some point. But whatwe're finding is the direct consumer speaking directly, by marketing direct consumer. Actually wedon't have to do a lot of it to figure out what really workswell and what has worked well is sale to the patients that were going after, which generally it's parents of children who are aware that this direct consumer ifyou want to call it, that model, where you never have to see anybody, exists, but they would never trust that for their own kids orthemselves. But they are aware of that. Virtual treatments possible, and so hereis the perfect marriage of tradition and technology. Yeah, we're one visitgets them everything they need and then, and then, with a minute ortwo with their smart phone a month, they can do their virtual checkups.So what we're finding is we can take that marketing in, take it toprospective Dennis that we're working with and say, look, this is what we're tellingpeople. We have people, we have patience, potential patients coming intous. Now, I won't say in drugs, but but a lot.And you know, here's an existing patient base for you that we can linkyou up with and and and give them a service that you are well positionedto provide. Sure, yeah, and WHO's going to turn that down?Who's going to turn that down exactly? Yeah. Well, Derek, thankyou so much. It's been such a great opportunity to speak with you todayand thank you for sharing so many insights with us. How To folks getAhold of you? If anybody wants to reach out to you after you knowthey can always check out our website. WWW. That clear blue smilescom.You can reach my email directly. It's just it's pretty easy. It's Kevinat clear blue smilescom. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you somuch for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovationto market and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodeson your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APPlike apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciateeveryone who shared the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the nextepisode of Health Innovators.

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