Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 2 years ago

How to generate sales before you even have a product w/ Richard Lin


When you’re a new-to-the-scene founder and you’re out to prove yourself, you need to be scrappy and creative. 

Success in the digital healthcare space is always difficult - finding funding and generating sales in a market with heightened volatility is nearly impossible - especially for a newcomer.

Nearly. But not quite.

Enter Richard Lin and his experience with a healthcare problem and his “gut” feeling that planted the seed of an idea that grew into his company, Thryve.

No one wants to be the company that builds a beautiful piece of tech that nobody wants to buy - and Richard shows our listeners and viewers just how to avoid that trap.

So, get ready because, in our latest episode, Richard dives into topics from commercialization to funding to discovery and beyond, while putting a unique, humble, and creative spin on each! 

Here are the show highlights:

  • This is one way to enjoy a B2C commercialization win (3:38)
  • How commercialization in the B2C space difference from B2B (5:57)
  • First-time founders can try this to increase their chances with investors (7:06)
  • How VC funding has changed from then to now (9:44)
  • Try this 4-step sequence to improve your lead indicator metrics (21:12)
  • This is how you implement and improve on customer discovery (32:21)

Guest Bio

Richard Lin is CEO and Co-Founder of Thryveinside,  a venture focused on microbiome genomic testing and personalized probiotic therapeutics.

Leveraging his background and education, Richard labored to develop what he terms the “23andMe for the microbiome” - a direct-to-consumer DNA solution centered on gut health.

Richard earned his BA in Economics and Communication from the University of California, Davis. 

If you’d like more information about Thryve, or just wish to reach out to Richard, you can reach him directly at, follow him on LinkedIn at Richard Lin or, for more information about Thryve, you can follow them on Facebook or Twitter at @ThryveInside.

Welcome to Coiq, where you learn how health innovators maximize their success. I'm your host, Dr Roxy, founder of Legacy DNA and international bestselling author of how health innovators maximize market success. Through candid conversations with health innovators, earlier, doctors and influencers, you'll learn how to bring your innovation from idea to start up to market domination. And now let's jump into the latest episode of Coiq. Welcome back to the show coiq listeners. On today's episode I have Richard Lynn with me, who is the CEO and Co founder of drive. Welcome to the show, Richard. Well, thank you, Dr Roxy, player to be here. Yeah, good to have you. So for our listeners and viewers that don't know you, tell us a little bit about your background and what you've been innovating these days. Sure, absolutely so. I'm richer the CEO and founder of thrive, and we like to call ourselves the twenty three and me for the microbiome, and I start this company because about four years ago it took anabiotics ended up getting really sick and, you know, went to multiple different doctors. They said you were too young and healthy looking to be sick. You probably just depressed and they give me ant to the presents and kind of in that process I started talking to other folks with chronic health problems that said you probably have a super bug in your gut from the antibiotics, and you get that treated. So I got that tested treated so much better and really that's what kind of sperm and start thrive. And my background isn't disclaimer. I'm not that a medical doctor anything like that, but my background has been building software products pretty much my entire career, at companies like sap all the way down to startups like the lift, which was recently acquired by target, and really try to bring my software background and bring the scientific expertise around the business in order to get this innovation to market. And, more specifically, our product is a direct consumer DNA test and we look at your stool, your poop and, based on that analysis, in one of two weeks, will give you a report within an APP which tells you about all the thousands of species of microbes in your gut, which ones are good for you and which ones are bad for you, which science has been showing that the imbalance of these microbes can lead to all kinds of chronic health problems and then we personalize a probiotic based on your stool sample and we also personalized food recommendations in order to improve your gut health and overall health as well. So I think it's mind blowing that did this has not existed before. Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting because the microboom is a relatively new concept. I think that the term was coined about ten years ago and you know, the the first step was figuring out DNA and bringing in the new technologies that can sequence DNA. Yeah, and that same technology was kind of bridged over for sequencing the microbiome. So it's relatively new and so the not too many players in the space just because it's a cutting edge science of technology. So where are you in the innovation process now? Yeah, it's a great question. So we've been around for about three years and we have a product currently in market. So we've tested it. We have tens of thousands of customers that I've used our product that have received benefits from, you know, balancing out their gut health. And really kind of where we're at is, you know, we have our gut testing solution and really where we're trying to go is test different parts of the human body that will say I'm a microbom. So there's vaginal health, there's infant and child Gut microbom health, there's oral health and skin health, and then the broader vision, as we continue to expand the business, is what I like to call the oh mix as a service or a mixed platform. Or we're first looking at Meta transcriptomics, which is the sequencing of microbiome, and we're going to exposomics, which looks at environmental toxins, which it can also affect your health,...

...and in the final piece is to know mix, which is your human DNA. So that's kind of the road map before we would like to go HMM. So, so, thinking about where you were three years ago when you first started, and where you are today, what are some of the the commercialization decisions that you've made a along the way, kind of looking back in hindsight, that you think is led to your success today? Yeah, the the focus that we have as a business when we think about commercialization is always start with a customer first. I know a lot of start off founders will try to build a really robust technology and then try to market it later to a customer and that's usually the wrong approach. You end up building a beautiful piece attack but nobody wants to buy it. So, you know, really the biggest kind of apex of the business has been focused on the customer and continue to figure out what the problem is and build a solution that addresses that problem and you just continue to talk to customers and iterate. So that's definitely shown kind of the biggest success for us. And this second piece is building kind of like an MVP and iterating on on small changes over time rather than trying to build a perfect solution, because you could spend, you know, a year trying to build a perfect solution and once you actually get to market you find out, Oh, you know, customers don't actually want that. So we've always built it into our process to build a minimum Bible product that can meet their need. And so that one of the examples of that was when we first started the company, we didn't actually even build a product. We just wanted to know if there was a customer and a market. So we just build a website with the easy checkout and payment and we reached out to the group's communities and forums that were interested in the microbiome and we let them know that we had this product and so they were able to pre order the product we've you know, we mentioned I we're going to launch it in about three months and we're able to make about six thousand dollars on the first day without having a product, and we just building a website then. Literally took us like eight hours to build a website and I used that data to go raise more money. So use that, as you know, attraction point, a data point, brought it to investors and was able to close around in about two days. About half million dollars will be closed in two days using the data and that story incredible, Richard, incredible. I don't hear that story, that strategy very often. You know. Do you think that this worked for you because you're doing B Toc and kind of circumventing, you know, some of the traditional reimbursement regulatory healthcare ecosystem? Yeah, absolutely. I mean a lot of companies that want to go down the insurance path will sometimes start in DDC just to, you know, validate and get more data. Definitely a different model than you know, your pure healthcare type play. And if you want to get in reimbursement from insurance and you need clinical studies and multiple phases. Like that's a completely different approach for us because we are starting consumer we're able to bypass some of those steps and get data early. The downside is, you know, we can't make specific claims. That at a healthcare company could. You know, we're not saying we're, you know, healing or fixing cancer or anything like that, but we can't talk about nonspecific symptoms based on you know, validated research to do that. And but yeah, to your point, D Toc has its benefits in that way. So so. So let's just kind of pull back the layers of the onion a little bit and how you did a test case to validate the business model and then use that to raise money. How do so? How and how impactful was that to your story? And, you know, had you not...

...done that, you know, what do you think your difference in success would have been in your fundraising journey? Yeah, you know, fundraising is tricky, right, like you probably read a lot of stories about the influx of capital and silk and valley and money is just all over the place. Granted, investors are still pretty logical in the way they think about investing and getting a return and so I knew going into it there were significant or risk in the entire story of the business. For one my by background and a cofounders background. You know, we're first time founders. So that's that's a big risk for investors. They love investing in sure entrepreneurs. We've done it multiple times. So going into that I knew I needed other parts of this story more well defined. So building up our team was a big one. So you know, I was the business guy, my other cofounder was the programmer and the software guy and in my third cove the third cofounder was the science guy. And so having a well rounded team in the early stages help a ton. And then having the traction data was super important because it showed a couple of things. Show that there was a market and it wasn't a top down approach. It didn't necessarily look at us, you know, big market research study and say old Mackenzie said there's x amount of dollars in this market and extract lay down it's I talked directly to the customer and I know how to, you know, excrap late that to a bigger market. And then this paid for it and they actually paid for you know, like you know the customers commitment by their wallet, right, like if they're willing to put money down, then that's the best the best way to prove out that there's an interest in your product. Yeah, and in the second piece of getting that data point was just the scrappiness be able to show, for with the very limited resource, because it was so funded at the time, that we were able to achieve and build even a small data point and get customers to pay for something with literally like no resources. So that that scrappiness, that signal helps a lot for investors to kind of get over the edge and say all invest in this founder. So what has that what has that fund raising journey been like for you? You know, kind of just walk us through those different milestones and and what's happened at different stages. Yeah, totally. So, before I kind of go into the history of it, I'm sure your audience is already well aware, but in venture capital in the past let's say like five years, the funding dynamics have changed a little bit. So before it was like you raise a seed ground and then you go straight to a series a and then BCD, and so forth and NPO eventually or you set your company. Nowadays, seed has actually broken up into three stages. So it's preseat seed and post seed or C plus, and then series a. and what used to be the series a milestone is now your seed milestone. So because building a product and building tech is easier than it was a like five ten years ago with aws and I'll do all these other tools that are available, investors are a little bit more strict and how they look at companies. So with that context, you know, for us we raised a you know, about half a million or precede, back in really late two thousand and sixteen, and kind of through that process we were just trying to build the V one of the products of the prototype which included just are our testing kit, and so we're able to prove that out and I think we're like two hundred Kish revenue at post that and then with enough signal that we could build a product, that we can have a team and so forth, we were able to raise our next round. But before then, you know, we were almost running out of cash. We had like two two more weeks of payroll. Thankfully our lead investor came in. You know, are...

...our funding came in phases, but we raised about one point seven on the seat the proper seed round and, you know, we were continue to iterate and so we brought in, we continue to improve the test kit. That included the food recommendations, and then we also brought in the probiotics and that next stage of our business. But the probiotics were based on a quiz and it wasn't actually, you know, highly integrate it into the testing kid, analysis and experience. And unfortunately that product, you know mix, was not only a little bit confusing to pick up smer, but it just was in a ten x experience and in a lot of x founders, you know successful founders, investors, will say if you're going to build a product in a highly competitive space like probiotics, you need a ten x experience. It needs to be ten x better than the competition. And so we were able to continue to adjust the the product and build kind of the V one of that full experience of, you know, the testing kid to the person's probiotic. At the end of our one point seven million dollar seed so we were getting close to the end as again, and which is a terrible feeling, but we're able to double our revenue. kind of the skills how much it is, but you know, we got too pretty high, you know, seven figure run rate with the very limited team. So we actually had to go through a set of layoffs and kind of get lean and really focus in, and then we raised another four million just recently in March by doubling pretty much all our kpis from top line revenue to improve retention, to improving that promoter score and so forth. So it agree probably raise around a little over six million and our goal is to raise the series a in February of twenty twenty one. Okay, so let's talk. So so thank you for sharing that, because I think that, you know, in today's world with healthcare innovators or entrepreneurs, you know, we're talking to technologists, engineers, scientists, physicians, clinicians, and so not everyone is is so clear about what was before or what's happening now in the VC world. So I think so much for sharing that. You mentioned NPS and you and I have had some conversations about that. So, you know, share the story with our listeners on how what you were doing with the npscore previously and how things shifted and what that meant for you all. Commercializing? Yeah, absolutely. So, like any business, there's always metrics and Kpis that businesses look at to see the health that they're the company in the product and so forth. So MPs was something we tracked very early on that promoter score, which you know. It asked a very basic survey question of how likely would you refer x product to your friends and family? And it's a score from zero or the ten, and anyone from serve six art detractors, which means that they kind of hate your company and build write bad reviews and so forth, and seven to eight are people that are passive to kind of like me, you know, not like that. Neither. Yeah, it's like we were. I mean, if someone else of another pretty girl game along, we would write, move over right. So, and then nine to ten is your promoters. You know, they're your evangelist, your top sales people, customers love you were to mouth and so forth. And so you can have a score of negative one hundred all the way up to positive one hundred. And you know we're relatively around like the upper upwards of forty positive MPs, which is still more work to be done, but we know we're we're making good progress. But if you look at kind of benchmark of other companies in the space, you know, airlines or like, you know phone companies, cable company is like... a negatives potentially, but that, you know, that was one of the metrics that were looking at early on and although it was a good kind of lagging indicator of things working, it was an elading indicator. And what I mean by that is, you know, it's a symptom of something working, but we don't know what that root causes. And so when we started switching from looking at like top line revenue and you know, cohort retentions or MPs too, let's look further up in the funnel and see how we can optimize that. So, for instance, if you're looking at conversion rates from a visitor to your website to buying your product, okay, how do we optimize that? How can we actually get actionable about it? Okay, you can. You can improve the website, you can add in testimonials, you can do whatever, and that should hopefully increase your percentage of conversion. And we looked at okay, people that get a test how many of those people are actually sending it in okay, so it looks like it's like eighty something percent. Why don't they other twenty percent send it in? I was it because they need reminders on email? Is it because they need instructions or so on and so forth? So we kind of thought about that as well. And then for the people that bought a testing kit, how many of them convert to a probiotic subscription? And you know, we have pretty healthy numbers there, but it wasn't always like that in the beginning. And so how do we get, you know, how do we get folks from when they get the recommendation to be able to sell them, convince them, show them how the intelligence of personizing their probiotic results in, you know, better health? How do we get that, you know, conversion up? And so we started tracking more leading indicators and once we started improving leading indicators, clearly saw a big increase in our lagging indicator metrics. So, Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy? I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities. Learn more at legacy type and DNACOM backslash kit. What made you even think of this? Because I've interviewed over two hundred healthcare innovators over the last year and a half and I have never heard anyone talk about these types of KPI's so early on, and I think that's a game changer for you and your path to success. Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's hard to think about kind of the the metrics of the business is, you know, something you have to put in practices. Income naturally to be data driven is I mean it's kind of a mantra and Silicon Valley to look at the data and not to go off your emotions or a good feeling. Granted, data can only take you so far. It can tell you what's what's happening, but it can't tell you why. So, you know, I think it's just being in a territory of Silicon Valley and work in a lot of tech companies where, you know, being data driven is kind of the the top thing. And my background prior to doing product which is kind of where I came from product management solwer companies, was in kind of marketing, analytics and in finance. So it was always kind of a numbers guy, not only because I'm Asian, but you know, the numbers thing is always been, is been kind of in my blood and so definitely helped me. It's helped me kind of shape how I run the company. So beautiful. What are some things that... did to improve your leading indicators? Are there any key takeaways that you think our listeners could learn from your experience? I mean, I know everybody situation is different, but you know, I'd love to hear if there's something that they could learn from you. Yeah, for sure. I think because this is a case by case basis, Um will probably be helpful is like the framework of how we thought about it versus like a very specific example. So you know, when once you break down the funnel and understand what those leading indicators are and where's the largest drop off, because that should always be the frammer. All right, we know the leading indicators. Where's the dropoff? Okay, there's five steps and the fourth step has like eighty percent drop off. Now that's where we should focus on, because that's the biggest, biggest gap. And so when you start digging in, are those eighty percent of people that dropped off? Do they have an email that? They have a phone number? Right, let me message them, you know, mass email them and say hey, I'd love to chat with you. And getting on the phone and just talking to customers, like I mentioned earlier, you know you're only going to know as much as your customer tells you, and so getting on the phone, talking to them, understanding their pain points. Maybe there were some barrier for them to cross the finish line, at least for that step, and what was that? And and once you can, you know, accurately diagnosed the problem, then you can this is where it becomes more of an art and less of the science then you, you know, hypothesize different subvolutions that can address that problem and some, you know, solutions may work better than the others, and that's where, you know, being data driven really matters. So if you have three or four different things going on for that specific step of the funnel, you know how are they improving? Are they improving or they is a decreasing and so forth, and you're going to get a lot of failing nurs it's just it. You know, when you think about kind of optimizing a funnel, it's very much like the scientific method. You know, you you run up a list of experiments based on some sort of data point and you you see what the results are and you're going to get a lot of failures and you might get, I get nine failures out of ten and that one success is like it moves the need on the business and you're like, you're right or ay. Don't be discouraged. As part of the process you got to fill a lot and that's okay. So there's this formula built a Havn. Create it, build, test, measure, optimize, and I think that that four steps sequence definitely works for the funnel. It works for the strategy. The go to market, our commercialization strategy, the product development. You know, I think so many times we think that we should just build and that's it. Yeah, yeah, you got to measure it right and you got it's a there's a process. Yeah, or thinking that we build it, we measure it. Oh Man, we didn't get it right. We failed, instead of going into it with the mindset that we are going to build, test, measure, optimize, because we know that it's going to be an iterative process. So I think that's a great takeaway for our viewers and listeners today is just to kind of have that in your mind from day one. That's just par for the course. Absolutely got to build. You get an ingrained agg grit in yourself, because it will get the scourging, but know that there's light at the end of the tunnel. But just continue to iterate. You're going to get more and more positive signals. But yeah, totally agree. Yeah. So, so when you talk about these positive signals, you have had a lot of conversations lately about this, this fine line or delicate balance between...

I'm again it can be, you know, my commercialization, my product strategy, any of those things that I'm in the market and I'm getting. I'm getting investors or target customers that are like not buying right, I'm losing them at the card or they're not investing, and I'm getting these nose and being headstrong and determined and my vision and knowing that I I'm going to get to, you know, let's say, eight nose before I get to the ninth. Yes, right, versus the flip side of that, when I actually should be listening to what they say and not being so stubborn and hedge strong and my original vision or approach and I really need to make some changes. How do you navigate between all the feedback that you're getting and what are you like? Yes, I need to change that. No, I need to ignore that and stay the core. Yeah, I know, that's a that's a great question. I mean, I think, you know, the unique DNA of founders is that, you know, we strongly believe in our vision and you kind of had to be a little bit crazy, because everybody's telling you know, like I remember when I started my company, friends were like what are you doing, and my brothers I guess near I'm going to make it and think for the family start grow. Sorry. Well, sorry us. If you see this podcast, I apologize, and even my mom. You know, it's funny because I was like, oh, mom, can you put a little bit investment? I'm going to put five grant. Can I borrow five grand and ten? You know, we're going to the ten grand into the business so I can incorporate in all these things. And I remember she told me vividly. She was like I was. I felt like almost like washing this money down the toilet, like flushing this money down the toilet. But you're my son. It's I couldn't have told you know, even if I didn't necessarily believe in it. And then obviously that that's five, five thousand became, you know, seven, seven, eight figure business right. So funny just thinking back about it. But to too original point. You know, founders, they have to have that unique DNA. They need to be strong and believe in their vision. I'd a eighty percent of the time. Yeah, and they should be flexible, like a bamboo, you know, to be able to work through the currents, and the currents can be feedback from from different folks. But it's also, you know, you got to you got to there's a certain level of selfwareness and just understanding that, like, not all of ice is good, but it's good to you know, if you find patterns like, for instance, I'll use example of like investors. You know, if you talk to fifty investors and you know half of them are saying the same thing, probably means you should probably fix that. Now. If it's just one unique investor, that's heads drown saying no, you have to change this, and it's like yeah, the guy saying it right. Maybe take you with agre in Salt, but definitely be able to be flexible and adjust that. That evolved. I mean you got to do that running a business without investors and so forth. Right, you have to continue to just keep keep it a rating toward that as well. So it so I think it's like an twenty. You know, I don't think you should give up who you are, what you believe in. They she'll still be flexible. So Sore. So I want to, you know, kind of ask you. I'm going to throw out two questions, but they're in a related so I want to know, for our viewers and listeners, what are you know, some of the greatest challenges that you faced in your journey so far and how you overcame them. And then I want to know what are some of your biggest successes? Yeah, so I'lutely, Richard, we're going. I guess we start with a bad news first. Getting Yeah, the the biggest challenges. I think one of them was, you know, starting a company in the digital health space is is difficult because it's multiple, multidisciplinary. You know, you have folks in science, you new folks and marketing and folks in engineering, and it just it's a whole... of different skill sets and the build a team around that has, you know, been the most challenging, especially since I came from like a software background and more of a business background. I didn't come from academia. Yeah, and so I remember very bibically trying to break into that network, you know, whether it's finding new employees, finding a CO founder, talking through you know, different things, and I don't want to generalize academia, but there they generally have a certain attitude for people that are what they call being an industry, which is like being business, and they be very skeptical, and so that was a very difficult challenge to overcome, to convince people. I think what helped was getting the right advisors on the team. They show, you know, obviously serious about the science of the business and then getting those advisors to vouch, whether it's to get on our phone call or talk to the you know, the potential employee that I'll trying to bring the team to kind of quash starting squash, you know, their fears and barriers to working and thrive. So that was one thing and then, you know, one of the other things, which kind of relates. As you know, startups, for business in generalist made up of people and there's always competing view points, whether it's like an investor or an employee. Customers do all have different needs and you're trying to keep kind of trying to keep everybody happy as a seal the company, and so really understanding I think I've kind of gone from building technical skills to building people skills and really my job is I'm just a router between different people right now, and learning how to manage that and what people's needs are and and be able to ask the by questions and being supportive and helpful has been kind of a learning experience. And so, whether it's management books or even self reflection. I'm a Christian, go to church and think about those things has definitely helped in building up the people skills and kind of building a genuine character to be a CEO. Those are some challenges. Well, I just want to say to that point, you know, I think that sometimes, you know, and I'm not saying it's you at any point, but you might find yourself an innovator that maybe came into it as a technologist or engineer or or, you know, academic founder, and then at some point you realize that in order to really run and grow this company it's requiring a different skill set total that you have and and you know, need to look at like will, maybe maybe I'm not the best person to be the CEO, because I really am not even I'm not good at it and I don't even want to do that. Like I had the founding idea, but I don't want to read the management books, I don't want to route people, I want to be able to do this other thing over here, and so I think that, you know, just being able to have that self awareness that you talked about to be able to make that decision it can be a game changer for the company. Yeah, absolutely, and we've definitely seen successes with different companies. I believe, like Google's founders did it for a while and then they brought in Eric, Eric Schmidt, to run the operations of the business. Yeah, I think, I think you know, for me it's it's been definitely a evolving and learning experience, but there's definitely parts of being the head Hancho in a sense where my roles kind of involved at not super excited about like accounting and like hr kind of those areas, and just right, right. I don't want to do that. I want to build some product, you know, but exactly I think I'm doing. Okay, yeah, yeah, what are thinking? It just will you. When you have that self awareness, you realize what your strengths and your talents and passions are and then each then you bring the right people.

Yeah, exactly, delegated, delegated to something better. Exactly. Yeah. And then you had a second part of the question about successes. Right. I mean, I think I talked about this briefly about, you know, getting initial traction of customers and closing around definitely seen that as a huge success, especially how how quickly we closed, about half million dollars and about two days. You know, that was probably my shining moment because I really went in there with like not super strong confidence on the man, you know, it's by for some reason money and I actually going to be able to do it. And then half a million dollars his the bank and it's like wow, it actually happened. I guess we're off to the races. So that was kind of the inflection point of like hey, you know, anything's anything's possible, you know, if you put your mind to it. And so that's probably one of the the bigger successes. And and then the other side were really tested my character of being a CEO was when we had the layoff the team and really think about, you know, how do we obviously keep the business alive and pivot, but also make sure that the folks that are, you know, departing ways with us, how do we set them up for success and helping, you know, those folks, whether it's with recommendations and referrals and getting them situated in a job so it was a easy transition for them in terms of the more financially support themselves in their families. That was probably a big learning experience for me and a huge success, so much in a layoff in itself, but be able to, you know, work through that process and kind of take the company to where it is now, kind of like resurrecting and reviving it. So it never feels good, no matter how many times you do it, ripping off that bandage. Yeah, it's like. So I want to go back to and just give you an opportunity, an opportunity to talk just a little bit more about the the customer discovery. So what I what I sense from you, is that this is this isn't a onetime exercise. It wasn't something that you did for three months or one focus group or even a batch of focus groups, but it sounds like it is just part of your culture and part of your ongoing business that you've you've truly integrated the different customers into that product development, product management, maybe even product launch process. So so is that the case and, if so, you know tell us what that looks like, because so many times I'm trying to spend I'm spending time trying to persuade people to actually get them involved, even for the focus groups, much less going that far where this is just this is just what we do all day, every day. We've got their input coming in. Yeah, I know it's it's a great question. I mean there is different ways to get feedback, you know, the more most organic ways to actually meet these people in person, talk to them, see them use the product, and then you can really, you know, bring out a lot of great and gets for that. I wish I did that more often. To be honest, I probably do, you know, a handful of phone calls every quarter just to get a really good pulse on it. So phone calls is like kind of my Goto. Yeah, because you get a lot more, you known, qualitative information as you're talking. But we have, you know, feedback loops that completely automated, so you know, whether it's surveys that we send out every week to different segments of customers, whether it's like your post purchase survey right when they purchase the product, pretty much the entire customer journey, we're asking questions about them and trying to get more information, and that plug straight into different dashboards we have. We Plug it into slack, so our product team has a good pulse of, you know, all that qualitative information that comes through people. That...

...a turn you know, they when they cancel subscription, we want to know, you know, why they cancel was there anything you could have done better, any of the product that we could have built? So all that gets fed into and I think our main channel right now to get updates is slack. We have a stack channel just pure customer feedback and you know, it's always constantly painting and we just go in and look on a daily basis like, you know, what are we saying? Anything that we can create into a new feature? Maybe it's a bug put into our Jira, which is what we use for project management and, you know, selfware development, product development, and then it goes straight to, you know, the team and we prioritize and start trying to execute on it. So yeah, that's great, fantastic. So is there anything else that you would want to share with our viewers and listeners before we wrap up? Any words of wisdom? Oh Man, you know, if you'RE gonna start a company, try to do your best to find a problem. You're very passionate about that. Hopefully as also affected you. You know, I've tried building several startups prior, but it was more about like I just want to build a tech company and make some money. It's kind of cool thing to do and it's like, Oh, maybe it's the kind of a cool idea and yeah, could just never follow through. You know, I spent three or six months, you know, kind of kind of going through the process and, you know, for thrive, like I actually went through a health problem and became very passionate, became a domain expert by reading, you know, countless articles and research scientific journals on the microbiome, and so that definitely helped me understand the problem, understand the customer and be able to talk to talk, if you will, and it helps because if you're passionate about the problem, you will continue on and you won't give up, and so that's that's the biggest thing. And you know, the second thing is just qrit and don't give up. You know, they say startups don't die, founders quit, HMM, and it's true. You know, like if the founder is willing to continue, even if it looks like doing gloom potentially, you know, the founder always find a way. And so, yeah, having that drive, and I think that's tied to kind of the passion and understanding the problem. Yeah, well, we'll get you there. So that that's the little nugget that I'll leave for your audience. Awesome. Thank you, so much for joining us today and sharing your wisdom with our viewers and listeners. How can everyone get ahold of you? If anyone who wants to follow up with you after the show? Yeah, absolutely so. Companies called thrive. You can find us at www dot insidecom. We're on facebook or on twitter, any social channels. is at Thrive Instide. If anyone wants to reach out directly, I'm Richard at Thrive INSIDECOM. Wonderful. Thank you so much, absolutely thanks for having me. Dr Roxy, thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and your attention. To save time and get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who's been sharing the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Coiq.

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