Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 1 year ago

How to generate sales before you even have a product w/ Richard Lin


When you’re a new-to-the-scene founder and you’re out to prove yourself, you need to be scrappy and creative. 

Success in the digital healthcare space is always difficult - finding funding and generating sales in a market with heightened volatility is nearly impossible - especially for a newcomer.

Nearly. But not quite.

Enter Richard Lin and his experience with a healthcare problem and his “gut” feeling that planted the seed of an idea that grew into his company, Thryve.

No one wants to be the company that builds a beautiful piece of tech that nobody wants to buy - and Richard shows our listeners and viewers just how to avoid that trap.

So, get ready because, in our latest episode, Richard dives into topics from commercialization to funding to discovery and beyond, while putting a unique, humble, and creative spin on each! 

Here are the show highlights:

  • This is one way to enjoy a B2C commercialization win (3:38)
  • How commercialization in the B2C space difference from B2B (5:57)
  • First-time founders can try this to increase their chances with investors (7:06)
  • How VC funding has changed from then to now (9:44)
  • Try this 4-step sequence to improve your lead indicator metrics (21:12)
  • This is how you implement and improve on customer discovery (32:21)

Guest Bio

Richard Lin is CEO and Co-Founder of Thryveinside,  a venture focused on microbiome genomic testing and personalized probiotic therapeutics.

Leveraging his background and education, Richard labored to develop what he terms the “23andMe for the microbiome” - a direct-to-consumer DNA solution centered on gut health.

Richard earned his BA in Economics and Communication from the University of California, Davis. 

If you’d like more information about Thryve, or just wish to reach out to Richard, you can reach him directly at, follow him on LinkedIn at Richard Lin or, for more information about Thryve, you can follow them on Facebook or Twitter at @ThryveInside.

Welcome to Coiq, where you learn howhealth innovators maximize their success. I'm your host, Dr Roxy,founder of legacy, DNA and International Beth selling author ofhow health innovators maximize market success through handed conversationswith health, innovators earlier doctors and influencers you'll learn how tobring your innovation, fome idea to start up to market domination and now,let's jump into the latest episode of Coiq. Welcome back to the show coyqlisteners on today's episode. I have Richard Lynde with me, who is the CEOand cofounder O thrive? Welcome to the show Richard Well. Thank you, Dr RoxyPleager, to be here yeah good, to have you so for our listeners and viewersthat don't know you tell us a little bit about your background and whatyou've been innovating these days. Sure absolutely so! I'm Richard the COand founder of thrive, and we like to call ourselves the twenty three and mefor the microbium, and I started this company because about four years ago ittook annbiotics, ended up getting really sick and you know, went tomultiple lifferent doctors. They said you were too young and healthy, lookingto be sick. You're probably just depressed, and they gave me Adto thepresence and kind of in that process. I started talking to other folks mot withchronic health problems. That said, you probably have a super bug in your Gudfrom the anibiotics and U Jus get that treated. So I got that tested treatedfel much better and really that's what kind of spur me o start thrive and mybackground isn't thiclaimrigh. Now, I'm not a medical doctor or anything likethat, but my background's been building sooffware products pretty much. Myentire career AC companies, like sap all the way down to startups like thelive, which was recently acquired by target and really try to bringmyselfare background and bring the scientific expertise around thebusiness in order to get this innovation to market and morespecifically, our product is a direct consumer dianatest, and we look at yourstool, Yourpoob and based on that analysis in one or two weeks, will giveyou a report within an AP which tells you about all the thousands of speciesof microps, an your got, which ones are good for you and which ones are bad foryou, which science has been showing that the imbalance of these micropescan lead to all kinds of chronic health problems, and then we personalize aprobiotic based on your stol sample, and we also personalize foodrecommendations in order to improve your God, health and overal health aswell. So I think it's mind blowing that thishas not existed before yeah. Well, you know it's interesting,because the microbom is a relatively new concept. I think that the term wascoine about ten years ago and EAH. You know the the first step was, you know, figuring out DNA and bringingin the new technologies that can sequence da yeah and that sametechnology was kind of ridged over for sequencin, the MICROBIOM. So it'srelatively new, and so there's not too many players in the space just becauseit's a cutting edge science and technology. So where are you in the innovationprocess? Now Yeah? It's a great question. So we'vebeen around for about three years and we have a product currently in market,so we've tested it. We have tens of thousands of customers that I've usedour product that have received benefits from you know, balancing out their Godhealth and really kind of where we're at is. You know we have our gut testingsolution and really where we're trying to go is test different parts of thehuman body that ill say have a microwhone, so there's Bagenal health,there's infint, I child Gut microbom ELV, there's oral health and skinhealthand of the broader vision as we continue to expand. The business iswhat I like to call the Omix as a service or Omix Platform Wen we're.First, looking at metatranscripttomics, which is the seqencing of microbiom andthe we're goging to expyzomixs, which...

...looks at environmental toxins, which itcan also affect your health and in the final piece, is genomixs, which is yourhuman DNA. So that's kind of the Road Mab Woru we ere be like to go so so thinking about where you werethree years ago, when you first started and where you are today, what are someof the the commercialization decisions that you've made along the way kind oflooking back in hindsight that you think is led to your success today. Yeah the the focus that we have as abusiness when we think about commercialization is always start witha customer first, I know a lot of startaffounders well try to build areally robut technology and then try to market it later to a customer andthat's usually the wrong approach. You end up building up beautiful piece oftack, but nobody wants to buy it. So you know really e. The biggest kind ofanfex of the business has been focuse on the customer and continue to figureout what the problem is and build. A solution that addresses that problem-and you just continue to talk to customers and iterate, so that'sdefinitely shown kind of the biggest success for us, and this second pieceis building kind of like an MVP and iterating O on small changes over time.Rather than trying to build a perfect solution because you could spend youknow a year trying to build a perfect solution and once you actually get tomarket you find out. Oh you know, customers don't actually want that. Sowe've always built it into our process to build a minim boble product that canmeet their need and so that one of the examples of that was when we firststarted the company we didn'tev actually C build a product. We justwanted to know if there was a customer and a market, so we just built awebsite with easy, checkout and payment, and we reached out to the groups,communities and forums that were interested in the Microbov Iown, and welet him know that we had this product, and so they were able to preorder theproduct. We you know we mentioned e, we're going to launch it in about threemonths and weere able to make about sixousand dollars on tha first daywithout having a product and we're just building a website. An literally tookus like eight hours to build a website, and I use that data to go, raise moremoney, so use that, as you know, attraction point, a data point broughtit to investors and was able to close around in about two days tha about halfmillion dollars to be closed in two days season. Tha Data, an that story.INCREDIBLE RICHARD INCREDIBLE! I don't hear that story that strategy. Veryoften you know. Do you think that this workedfor you because you're doing BTC and kind of circumventing you know some ofthe traditional reimbursement, regulatory healthcare ecosystem. Yeah? Absolutely I mean a lot ofcompanies that want to go down. The insurance path will sometimes start indtocee. Just to you know, validate and get more data, definitely a differentmodel than you know, your pure health care type play and if you want to getinto remembersemen from insurance- and you need clinical studies and mutilephases, like that's a completely different approach for us, because weare starting consumer we're able to bypass some of thosesteps and get data early. The downside is, you know we can't makespecific claims that at a health care company, could you know we're notsaying we're. You know healing or fixing cancer or anything like that,but we can' talk about no specific symptoms based on on you know, validyand an research to do that and but yeah to your point, do you see has itsbenefits in that way. So so so, let's just kind of pull back the layers ofthe onion a little bit and how you did a test case to validate the businessmodel and then use that to raise money. How howhow impactful was that to yourstory and you know: had you not done...

...that you know what do you think yourdifference in success would have been in your fundraising journey yeah, you know fun raising is trickyright, like you probably read a lot of stories about the influx of capital and stilk and vallyand money is just all over the place. Granted. Investors are still prettylogical in the way they think about investing and getting a return, and so I kneew going into it. There weresignificant risk in the entire story of the business. For one. My My background, an Ma, cophownersbackground you k where first time founders, so that's that's a big riskfor investors. They love investing in Seral entrepreneurs, who've doneitbotil times so gopoing into that. I knew I needed other parts of this story more well defined. So building up ourteam was a big one. So you know I was the business guy. My other cofounderwas the programmer, the software guy and in my third cout, the thirdcofounter was the science guy and so having a will rounded team in the earlystages. Helpe the ton and then having the traction data was super importantbecause it showed a couple of things. It showed that the was a market and it wasn't a topdown approach. It didn'tnecessarily look at us. You know big market research, study and say OlMackenzi said: There's X, amount of dollars in this market and xtrap laydown it's. I talked torectly to the customer and I know how to you knowextraplate that to a bigger market, an then the paid for it and they actuallypaid for you know, like you, know, hesfirst commitment by the wallet right like if they'rewilling to put money down, then that's the best best way to prove out that there's aninterest in your product, yeah and t in a second piece of orgetting. That datapoint was just the scrappiness be able to show with the very limited resourcebecause it was so funded at the time that we were able to achieve and buildeven a small data point and get you know, customers to pay for somethingwith literally like no resources so that thats scrappiness. So that signal helps a lot for investorsto kind of get over the age and say all n invest in thes stounder. So what has that? What has thatfundraising journey been like for you? You know kind of just walk us throughthose different milestones and and what's happened at different stages, yeah bstolly. So before I kind of gointo the history of it, I'm sure your audience is already well aware, but inventure capital in the past I'd say like five years,the funding dynamacs have changed a little bit so before it was like youraise a seaground and then you go straight to a series, a and then BCDand so forth, and Impo, eventually or Sut Company. Nowadays, seed hasactually broken up into three stages, so it's preceed seed and posteeve or Cplus, and then series a and what used to be the series a milestone is now your seed milestone so because building a product and buildingtech is easier than it was say like five ten years ago, with aws and athe.All these other tools that are available investors are a little bitmore strict, an how they look at companies. So with that context youknow for us we raised a you know about half a millionaire preced back inreallylate, two thousand and sixteen and kind of through that process whowere just trying to build t e, The v one of the products of the prototype,which included just or our testing kit, and so we're able to prove that out-and I think we are like two hundred KSh revenue and post that and then with th Enou signal that wecould build a product that we could have a team and so forth. We were ableto raise our next round, but before then you know we were almost runningout of cash. We had like two two more weeks of payroll. Thankfully our leadinvestor came in,... know, are our funding caven phases, but we rasedabout one point: Seven on the seat, the proper seed round- and you know W- werecontinuing to iterate, and so we brought in. We continued t improve thetest, kid that included the food recomnenitions and then we also broughtin the probiotics and then next stage of our business, but the probioticswere based on a quiz and it was at actually you know tightly inangryi didinto the the testing kid analysis that experience and unfortunately that product you know,mixd was not only a little bit conmfusing to pick a Smer, but it justwasn't a tex experience and in a a lot of xfounders you know successfulfounders. Investors will say: If you're going to build a product in a highlycompetitive space like probiotics, you need a tenx experience. It needs to betenics better than the competition, and so we were able to continue to adjust the product andbuild kind of the V. One of that full experience. If you know the testingkids of the PERSONIS probiotic at the end of our one point: seven milliondollar seed. So we were getting close to the end as again, which is aterrible feeling but he're able to double our revenue kind of the skills. How much it is. Butyou know we got to pretty high, you N O seven figure run rate with te very limited team, so weactually had to go through Settof, lay offs and kind ofget lean and really focus in, and then we raised another four million justrecently in March by doubling pretty much all or our KPIS,from top line revenue to improve retention, to improving that promoter,score and so forth. So Y agry probably raise around a little over six millionand our goal is to raisea series a in February of tw Thousanda, twenty one, okay. So let's talk so so. Thank youfor sharing that because I think that you know in today's world withhealthcare, innovators or entrepreneurs. You know we're talking to technologistengineers, scientists, physicians, clinicions, and so not. Everyone is soclear about what was before or what's happening now in the VC world. So Ithink so much for sharing that you mentioned nps and you- and I havehad some conversations about that. So you know share the story with ourlisteners, how what you were doing with the NPS scorepreviously and how things shifted and what that meant for you allcommercializing yeah, absolutely so, like any business, there's alwaysmetrics and CPIS that businesses look at to see the health of the the companyand the product and so forth. So MPs was something we tracked very early onthat promoter score, which you know asked a very basic survey, question ofhow likely would you refer x, product to your friends and family and it's ascore from zero, the ten and anyone from Servo six or to tractors, whichmeans that they kind of hate your company andthey'll write bad reviews and so forth, and seventy eight are people that arepassive to kind of like Mi. You know we don't like them either yeah, it's likeEwere, I mean if someone else of another prettyr girl came along, we wia move, overright so and then Nineto ten is your promoters. You know yourevangelist, your top sales people, customers love. You were to mouth andso forth, and so you can have a score of negative one hundred all the way upto positive. One hundred- and you know we're relatively around, like the UPROA upwards of forty positive NPS,which is still more work to be done, but WEUknow were we're making good progress. But if you look at a kind of bench markof other companies, the space you know airlines or, like you know, phonecompanies, cable companies like in a...

...negatives potentially, but that youknow that was one of the etrics hat werelooking at early on. And althoughit was a good kind of blagging indicator of things working, it was analeading indocator. And what I mean by that is, you know it's a symptom ofsomething working, but we don't know what that root causes, and so, when westarted switching from looking at like topline revenue- and you know, coot,rettensions or MPs to let's look further up in the funnel and see how wecan optimize that so, for instance, if you're looking at conversion rates froma visitor to your website to buying your product. Okay, how do we optimizethat? How can we actually get actionable about it? Okay, you can, youcan improve the website, you can add in testimonials, Oan do whatever, and thatshould hopefully increase your percentage of conversion, and then welooked at okay people that get a test. How many of those people are actuallysending it in okay? So it looks like it's like eighty,something percent. Why don't the other twenty percentent send it in? It wasbecause they need reminders on email is itecause, they need instructions orsoon and so forth. So we kind of thought about that as well and then forthe people, thate OT, a testing kit, how many of them convert to a probioticsubscription- and you know we have pretty healthy numbers there, but itwasn't always like that in the beginning, and so how do we get? Youknow? How do we get folks from when they get the recommennation to be ableto sell them? Convince them, show them how the intelligence of personizingtheir probiotic results in. You know better health. How do we get that? Youknow onversion up, and so we started tracking, more leading indicators andonce we started improvein leading indicators clearly saw a big increasein Ou Lagg, inimnicator metrics. So hey it's Dr Roxy. Here with a quick breakfrom the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need tomake to survive and thrive in the new covid economy? I want every healthinnovator to find their most viable and profitable pimit strategy, which is whyI creates Ha covid proof your business to the kid. The pipokit is a step bystep framework that helps you find your best tivid strategy. It walks youthrough six categories. You need to examine for a three hundred and sixtydegree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot linses, asyou make your way through this comprehensive kid, you'll be armed withthe tools, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speedwithout missing out on critical details and opportunities, learn more at legacy.Tythan DNACOM BACKSLA kid. What made you even think of this, because I'veinterviewed over two hundred healthcare innovators over the last year and ahalf, and I have never heard anyone talk about these types of Kpis so earlyon and I think that's a game changer foryou and your path, O success. Yeah, absolutely I mean it's hard tothink about kind of the the metrics of the business. Is Youknow something they have to put in Practiceis in come naturally to be datadriven is I mean it's kind of a Montra in sothe valley to to look at the dataand not to go off your emotions for a good feeling. Granted data can only take you so far.They can tell you what's what's happening, but it can't tell you why. So you know, I think, it's just beingin a territory of Silken valley and iwortd in a lot of tech companies whereyou know being data driven, is kind of e. The top thing in my background,prior to doing products, which is kind of where I came from product management,somewher companies was in kind of marketing analytics and in finance. Soit was always kind of a number sguy, not only because Imasian, but you know, the number thing hasalways been is been kind of semy blood and so definitely help me. It's helpedme kind of shape how I run the company... beautiful. What are some things thatyou did to improve your leading indicators? Are there any key takeawaysthat you think our listeners could learn? From your experience I mean Iknow, everybody's situation is different, but you know I'd love to hear if there's somethingthat they could learn from you yeah for sure. I think, because this is a case by casebasis. WHATL probably be helpful is like theframework of how we thought about it versus like a very specific example. Soyou know when, once you break down the funnel and understand what thosefleading indicators are and where's the largest drop off, so that should alwaysbe the framer. Alright, we know the leading indicators, where's a drop off.Okay, there's five steps, and the fourth step has like eighty percentprop off now. That's where we should focus on, because that's the biggestbiggest Gab, and so when you start digging in allright those eightypercent of people that dropped off. Do they have an email? Do they have aphone number by? Let me message them. You know mass email them and say: HeyI'd, love to chat with you and I' getting on the phone and justtalking to customers. Like I mentioned earlier, you know you're only going toknow as much as your customer tells you and so getting on the phone talking to themunderstanding their painpoints. Maybe there was some barrier for them tocross the finish line, at least for that step, and what was that and n onceyou can? You know accurately diagnose the problem. Then you can. This iswhere it becomes more of an art and less of a science. They need. You know hypothesizedifferent sovolutions that can address that problem and some you knowsolutions may work better than others and that's where you know being datadriven, really matters. So if you have three or four different things goingonf for that thesfig step of the Funel, you know, how are they improving? Are they improving or they is itdecreasing and so forth and you're going to get a lot of failures? It'sjust it. You know when you think about kind of optimizing, a funnel its verymuch like the scientific method. You know you run up a list of experimentsbased on some sort of data point and you see what the results are and you'regoing to get a wone of failures and you might get Mik get nine failures out often and that one success is like it moves the Nedo on the business andyou're like you're right, alray, don't be discouraged, ust partof the process. You gotto fell a lot and that's okay. So there's this formula bill isivin created bill test measureoptimize and I think that that forstep sequence definitely works for thefunnel. It works for the strategy. The go to market, our commercializationstrategy, the product development. You know, I think so many times. We thinkthat we should just build and that's it ot yeah. You got to measure it rightand you gotit's there's a process yeah or thinking that we build it. Wemeasure it. Oh Man, we didn't get it right. We failed instead of going intoit with the mindset that we are going to build tesh measure optimize, becausewe know that it's going to be an iteratitive process. So I think that'sa great takeaway for our viewers and listeners today is just to kind of havethat in your mind from day one, that's just part or the course absolutely y got Ta build o GotaIngrain that grit in yourself, because it will get discouraging but know thatthere's light at the end of the tunnel. Let just continue to irtorate you're,going to get more and more positive sitfignals, but yeah colly agree yeah. So so, whenyou talk about these positive signals, you know 've had a lot of conversationslately about this. This fine line or delicate balance between...

I'm again it can be. You know mycommercialization my product strategy, any of those things that I'm in themarket and I'm getting I'm getting investors or target customers that arelike not buying right, I'm losing them at the card or they're, not investing,and I'm getting these nose and being headstrong and determined. In my visionand knowing that I'm going to get to you know, let's say eight nos before Iget to the Nife. Yes right versus the flipside of that when I actually should be listening to whatthey say and not being so stubborn and headstrong and my original vision orapproach, and I really need to make some changes. How do you navigatebetween all the feedback that you're getting and what are you like? Yes, Ineed to change that. No, I need to ignore that and say the course yeah. Now. That's that's a greatquestion. I mean I think you know the unique DNA of founders is that you knowwe strongly believe in our vision and you kind of had to be a little bitcrazy, because everybody's telling you know, like I remember when I started mycompany friends were like what are you doingand t N. my brother was like you're, never going to make it and yeah thanks for the family, Star, R,sorry ws. If you see this podcast, I apologize and even my mom. You knowit's funny because an we was like. Oh Mom, can you put alittle bit investment, I'm going to put five grand? Can I borrow five grand andten? You know we're going to put ten granted of the business, so I canincorporate an all these things hat. I remember she told me vividly she waslike I was. I felt like. I was like washing this money down the toilet likeflushing, this money down the toilet but you're, my son, so I couldn't havetold you know, even if I didn't necessarily believe init and then obviously that that five five thousand became you know sevenndseven, eight figure, business right, so ifunny just tinking back about it butto to original point, you know founders. They have to have that unique Danit.They need to be strong and believe in their vision. I'd take eighty percent of the timeyeah and they should be flexible. Like a bamboo, you know to be able to the work, though thecurrents and the curents can be feedback from from different folks. Butit's also, you know you got. You got a there's. A certain level ofselfwareness and just understanding that, like not all of vice is good, butit's good to you know if you find patterns like for instanse, so usexample of like investors. You know, if you talk to fifty investors and youknow, half of them are saying the same thing probably means you shouldprobably fix that y. u know if it's just one unique investor: THAT'S HEADSTRONG SING! Now you have to change this and it's like yeahte guy saying it.I know maybe take Yit with a Gren salt,but definitely be able to be flexible and adjust adapt evolve. I mean you gotto do that running a business without invest, jurs and so forth. Were You thocontinue to just keep, keep it arating toward that as well. So it s think it'slike in eight twenty. You know, I don't think you give up who you are, what youbelieve in be shell still be flexible sofe. I soso.I want to you, know kind of ask I'm going to throw out two questions, butthey're innerrelated, so I want to know for our viewers and listeners. What are you know, some of the greatestchallenges that you faced in your journey so far and how you overcamethem and then I want to know what are someof your biggest successes: Yeah Soriche we're going O. I guess westart with the Bads Firstyeah the big, the biggest challenges. I think one of them was, you know, starting acompany in the digital health space is is difficult because it's mult Wultidisciplinary. You know you have folks in science, Ou, folks and marketingfolks in engineering and it just a...

...whole host of different skill sets andthe BUILDA team around that has, you know, been the most challenging,especially since I came from like a a software background and more of abusiness background. I didn't come from academia, and so I remember very biellytrying to break into that network. You know whether it's finding new employeesfinding a cofounder talking through you know different things, and I don't wantto generalize academia, but there they generally have a certain attitude forpeople that are what t they call being an industry which is like a beingbusiness and they'd be very skeptical, and sothat was a very difficult challenge to overcome to convince people. I think what helpd was getting theright odvisors on the team, the show you know obviously serious about thescience of the business and thin getting those advisors to vouch,whether it's to Geti on a phone call or talk to the you know the potential employee that I'll tryingto bring the team to kind of quash herstart squash. You know their fearsand barriers to to working and thrive. So that was one thing and then you know one of the other things whichkind of relates is you know, startups tour. A business in general is mit upwith people and there's always competing view points whether it's like aninvestor or an employee customers. Doi have different needs andyou're trying to keep kind of trying to keep everybody happy as a se, O thecompany and so really understanding. I think I've kindof gone from building technical skills to building people, skills and reallymy job is I'm just e router between different people right now and thelearning how od managed that and what people's an knees are and and beable toask Te. Rigt questions and being supportive and helpful. has been kindof a learning experience, and so wheher management, books or even selfreflection, I'm a Christian, go to church and and think about. Thosethings has definitely helped in building up the peoples, skills andkind of buildiing a genuine character to TBESCO. Those are some challenges. Well, N. I just want to say to thatpoint. You know. I think that sometimes you know- and I'm not saying it's youat any point, but you might find yourself an innovator that maybe cameinto it as a technologist or engineer or or you know,academic founder and then at some point you realize that in order to really runand grow this company, it's requiring a different skill set or that you haveand- and you know need to look at like well- maybe maybe I'm not the bestperson to be the CEO, because I really am not even I'm not good at it, and Idon't even want to do that like I had the founding idea, but I don't want to read the managementbooks. I don't want to route people. I want to be able to do this other thingover here, and so I think that you know just being able to have thatselfawareness that you talked about to be able to make that decision. It can be a game changer for thecompany, yeah, absolutely and we've definitely seen successes withdifferent companies. I believe, like googles founders, did it for a whileand then they brought in Erit perishment to run the operations of thevisiness yeah. I think I think you know. For me it's been definitely a evolvingand learning experience, but there's definitely parts of being the headHanco in a sense where my roles kind ofinvolved, that not super excited about like accounting and like hr kind ofthose areas and just right rint. I don't want to do that- want to bui someproduct. You know ut igt, exactly I think I'm doing. Okay, Yeahyh Wat. Iwill you, when you have that Selfawareness, you realize what yourstrengths and your talents and passions...

...are and then you ge in you bring theright people yeah exactly delegated deyllget, it oin better, exactly yeah,and then you had a second part of the question about successes. Right I mean I think I talked about thisbriefly about you, know gevting the initial traction of customers andclosing around definitely Seeng that as a huge success, especially how howquickly we closed about half million dollars and about two days. You know that was probably my y shiningmoment, because I really I went in there with like not super strongconfidence. Iwasi, and you know it's by first some raising money, an Miactually B, going to be able to do it and then half a million dollars hissthe bank and it's like wow. It actually happen. I guess we're off to the racist,so that was kind of the inflection point of like hey. You know anything iseverything is possible. You know, if you put your mind to it, and so that's probably one of the thebigger successes and and then the other side, where really tested my characterof being a Co, was when we had te, lay off the team and really think about youknow how do we, you know, obviously keep the business alive and picid it,but also make sure that the folks that are you know departing ways with us howto we set them up for success and helping. You know those folks, whetherit's with recommendations and referrals be getting them situat in a job, so itwas a easy transition for them in terms of Towere, financially supportthemselves, ind their families. That was probably a big learningexperience for me and Wa. You success so much in a layoff in itself, but beable to you know, work through that process and kind of take the company to whereit is now kind of like resurrecting and roviving it. So it never feels good, nomatter how many times you do it ripping off that banded yeah, it's like, so I want to go back to and just giveyou an notprotito opportunity to talk just a little bit more about the thecustomer discovery. So what I? What I sence from you is that this is this,isn't a one time exercise, it wasn't something that you did for three monthsor one focus group or even a batch of focus groups, but it sounds like it isjust part of your culture and part of your ongoing business that Youv you'vetruly integrated the different customers into that product development, productmanagement, maybe even product launch process. So so is that the case- and ifso you know tell us what that looks like, because so many times I'm tryingto spend I'm spending time trying to persuade people to actually get theminvolved even for the focus groups, much less going that far where this isjust. This is just what we do all day. Every day we've got their input comingin yeah. I know it's it's a great question.I mean theris different ways to get feedback. You know the more mostorganic ways to actually meet these people in person. Talk to them, seethem use the product, and then you can really, you know, bring out a lot ofGreatn nuggets. For that I wish I did that more often. To be honest, I probably do you know a handful ofphone calls every quarter just to get a really good pulse on it.So phone calls is like kind of my go to yeah bcaus. You get a lot of moreYiuknow qualityofe information as you're talking, but we have you know,feedback loops that completely automated. So you knowwhether it's surveys that we send out every week to different segments ofcustomers, whether it's like your post purchase,survey right when they purchase the product, pretty much that entire customerjourney were asking questions about them and trying to get more informationand that plugs straight into different dash words. We have we plug it intoslack, so our product team, as a good pulse of you, know all that qualitativeinformationtion that comes through...

...people that acurn you know they whenthey cancel subscription. They want to know you know why they canceled wasthere anything. You could have done better any of the product that we couldhave built. So all that gets fed into- and I think our main channel right nowto get up theres, this slack wehave a stock channel just pure customerfeedback- and you know it's always constantly pining an we just go in andlook on a daily basis. Like you know, what are we saying anything that we cancreate into a new future? Maybe it's a bug put into Ar Gera, which is what weuse for project management and you know softwar development, notefoment andthen he goes straight to you know the team and we prioritize and start tryingto excude on it. So yeah, that's great fantastic. So is there anything elsethat you would want to share with our viewers and listeners before we wrap up any words of wisdom? Oh Man, you know if you're Goin, no start a company, try to do your best to find a problem,you're very passionate about that. Hopefully, as also affected you, you know, I've tried building several startups prior, but it was moreabout like I just want to build a PEC company and Asti make some Boney, it's kind, a coolthing to do, and it's like, Oh, maybe it's a kind of a cool idea and yeahcould just never follow through. You know, spent three or six months. Youknow kind of kind of going through the process and you know for thrive like Iactually went through a you, kn w health problem and became verypaassionate became a domain expert by reading. You know countless artiticlesand research scientific journals on the MICROBIOM, and so that definitelyhelped me understand the problem, understand the customer and be able totalk the talk if you will and it helps because, if you'repassionate about the problem, you will continue on, you won't give up. And sothat's that's the biggest thing, and you know the second thing is just critand don't give up. You know they say: Startup still die founders, quit M andit's true, you know like Faif. The founder is willing to continue, even ifit looks like doming gloom. Potentially you know the founder always find a wayand so yeah having a drive, and I think,that's Tighe- to kind of the passion and understanding the problem. Yeah Welwe'll get you there so that that's the little nugget that I'llleave for your audience awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today andsharing your wisdom with our viewers and listeners. How can everyone get ahold of you if anyone who wants to follow up with you after the show yeah,absolutely so companies called thrive? You can find us at wwwdt thrive,insidecom, we're on facebook, we're on twitter, any social channels of atthrive insside. If anone wants to reach out directly, I'm Richard at thriveinside com. Wonderful! Thank you. So much absolutely thanks for having me,Dr Roxon. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy workingto bring your life changing innovation to market, and I vowue your time andyour attention to save kind and get the latest episodes on your mobile deviceautomatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like applepodcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciateeveryone. WHO's been sharing. The show with friends and colleagues see you onthe next episode of coiq.

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