Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 2 years ago

How to Find Success With Radical Innovations, Establish a New Category & Cut Through the Noise w/Michael Dermer

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The process of commercializing an innovation in a completely new category requires an approach that is entirely different to incremental innovations. When you’re trying to innovate in such a space, how do you get the messaging and positioning right? Why do you have to put a lot of time and effort into your sales strategy? What core capabilities does an innovator need to have in order to succeed?

On this episode, I’m joined by healthcare rewards pioneer, IncentOne and The Lonely Entrepreneur founder, Michael Dermer who talks about building the first healthcare rewards company, and his insights for innovators.

 

3 Things You'll Learn

  • How to move a market that’s slow to change
  • How to rise above the noise
  • Why focusing on product isn’t good enough

 

Influencing a slow and clunky industry like healthcare can be an immense challenge because you’re trying to turn a huge tide. A lot can be learned from the story of IncentOne, and how they were able to succeed at a time most healthcare organizations find the idea of rewarding people offensive. The secret is positioning and messaging, and more specifically coming up with a central theme that people can connect to, and playing in an area where only you can win, a space where no one else is. You have to marry the clarity of your vision with what it takes to actually get business.

 

Welcome to Coiq and first of its kindvideo program about health, innovators earlier doctors and influencers, andthey are stories about writing the roller coaster of health care andovation. I'm your host dtor Roxy, founder of Legacy, DNA marketing groupand it's time to raise our COIQ welcome back to Oyq listeners ontoday's show. We have Michael Durmer with us. The pioneer of healthcarerewards. He is the he was the founder of Incent, one which he sold toWelltolk in two thousand and thirteen and then more recently he launched alonely entrepreneur, an online learning community for business owners. Welcometo the show, Michael! Thank you so much for Haming me awesome. So I think youknow just to kind of level set with our listeners, who maybe don't know who youare, let's start off by just telling us a little bit about your background andwhat you do sure to be happy to you know. I started my career as acorporate lawyer in New York City. Work for Blogina clot form doing MNA, but Ireally wanted to start a business didn't know anything about health careand I just literally stumbled upon my business. Somebody showed me a statthat said every ten pregnant women that don't follow their Prenata care e castthe healthcare system, a million dollars like Woll like why? Wouldn't wejust reward these women are bridelys women to do it, and that was it left my crestigious law job after threeyears and started with got to be known as the first company in the US toreward people for being healthy and very, very new concept at the time andthrough some very you know, lean early years food strapping it an noneventually venture capital built a company up to about a sixtymilliondollar company by two thousand a eight, and so we had kind of made it and then almost watched our company getdestroyed overnight by the financial crisis. You know ar clients for thelardest companies in America as they struggled with the crisis. So did weand then spent the next couple of years kind of battling, scrapping and clawingand started to build back up and on the other end of the financial crisis?Thereis all this interest, ind healthcare. We got approached by abunch of investment bankers and got bought and was sold to well talking,two thousand and thirteen, so it worked out great, but it was an incrediblywild journey over the course ofbout a decade. It's so interesting. I mean, Ithink our listeners are just going to love hearing your story anytime. I havea guest on the show who has an exit strategy that actually came refuition. It makesfor a real good story for our listeners, so you talked about this wild ride, soyou know you kind of touched on it a little bit, but what was it like foryou, especially in the early days of writing this wild wide of you knowroller coaster of health carenovation. You know. We really believe that we'reonto something, because if you looked at all the trends in the industry, H,rewas tons of investments and trying to get people to manage their diabetes,and you know dot that that and they...

...just the universal theme, was thatnobody could get anybody to do it. And so the idea of using healthcarerewards made complete sense. But whuld you realize pretty quickly and healthcare. Is that just because something makes sense doesn't mean that peoplebuy it and all that fun stuff and so early on. We had to marry the clarity of the vision which wereally understood with. How do you actually win business and how do youactually influence a market that actually moved slow? His clun cane hasa lot of hands in the pot so, but it was amazing. It was basically me andthen me and one other person and then slowly incrementedy building over timeand all the stuff raising money, all the craziness that goes along the wayand then selling into an incredibly complicated market with a not just anew product. But frankly it s like a new industry. So it took an incredible amount of creativity to be able to do that, and you knowit's like you said before it's easier now, tust look back and go yeah, wesold he company and we were brilliant, but at the time you know if you knewthe number of doors we get in our face. The day I used to tell Y my privateequity investors. The day before we sold the company. I was a moron and thenext day I was the smartest guy in the world. So that's just the way it works right right absolutelyso you know you hit on this. What was the year that you started? INCENT, one really two thousand and oneyeah, so I mean talk about early. You know I mean it's really common today,but in two thousand and one it was, it was unheard of. I mean you were catinga new category, UN heard of and in frank beyond, even unheard of, butoffensive like it was offensive to the healthcare industry that that theywould have to reward or pay a pregnant mom to follow her own prene care or togive a diabetic, an incentive bigt to go, get an eyeingxam. So we weren'tjust fighting the fact that it was new. The whole health care injusty wasfighting against it. You know they did not want to open the door to have touse their own dollars to reward people and we're like listen we've we wouldsay, with all dew respect, you know, you've been doing the same thing forfifty years. We controlling you, know one out of every six dollars in Americaand it's not working right and every other industry out there uses rewards,try to drive behavior, so it was n, amazingly interesting journey to try tobasically shift the perspective F, that of a very slow moving industry. So you know I work with a lot of people,whether it's official or inofficial, that have different types ofinnovations that they're bringing to market. So sometimes it's just anincremental innovation, which is you know valuable in its own right and thenother times. It's like what you did where it's a real radical innovation,and I think that there's a lot of differences between those two there's,a difference in risk difference in reward difference, ind strategies isthat something that you can kind of...

...look back and go yeah. I knew thatthose were different and I knew how to do those like. I knew what was going towork for radical innovation, or is it something that you just really kind oflearned the hard way over time? Well, of course, I knew it was going to worknow. Of course, it's funny in our book wed call itknowing what inning you're in Ou know, I'm an old baseball guy. So it's reallyhard to do right because, as as the entrepreneur and the someone who's hadthe vision for it, it's very clear to you what exists today, which is thateverybody's going to use rewards. But you really miss time that right,because when you, when you think about that, you say: Oh it's just a matter oftime before you do that all the decisions you make right, how robustyou make your product when you go out for out croutside Capiton, how much andhow aggressivel Yo go after it, especially to influence o market likehealth, carsules or decisions that we probably overstepped ourselves byprobably two or three years, and I think we would have been more patient. Although it's certainlynot my Danativy patient bat, we would have been more patient and moredeliberate about how we spent money and how we raised money, because youhave to marry up your vision, your passion for it, yourbelief in it with the industry that you're sellingto and how much you're going to be able to influence it. So those weredecisions that, if I had those over again, I probably would have shifted bya good amount of time, mm yeah, absolutely yeah. I I mean I think thatyou're so right this this product. You know we alwe talk a lot about productmarket, fit N in solution problem fit, and you knowthe Vision that the entrepreneur innovator may have maybe slightlydifferent with the with the with then what the target market is reallylooking for and how they perceive the problem that they have, and you know Ithink, in health care in particular, but this probably just another industryEl. Let's say you have the perfect product market shit still have a lot ofhands in the pot that have an incentive for the market, not to change yeah,especially in health care. So you know what we were finding was that healthplans felt really vulnerable that that they weren't delivering this solution,and so they were very weary about dipping their tollon, the water right.So there's all these people that have, I mean think about it today. It shouldbe really easy for us to go online and have all our medical records on oneplace. Yeah night. We don't it's not that the technology doesn't exist, itdoes it's. Just the constituents and the health care inust ry, don't want itto happen yeah. So so that's tat, Tetu that but true and unfortunately, it'shard enough to get product market fit, but even if you get that, you have to realize how to actuallyinfluence the market and create burning platforms and issues for them like, forexample, you could go to health. ENS Say this makes a lot of sense. ITWILLsave you money on your pregnant women and your diabetics. That's one thing or you can go into Pittsburgh and youcan say to UPMC and Hig Mark we're...

...going to do with this. Do this with oneof the two of you, but not both and and that doesn't really have anything to dowith product market said right. It has just that do with how do you influencethe market? You just learn those those techniques kind of over the course oftime. That's brilliant. I mean just absolutely brilliant, and, and so youknow, one of the steps that I talk about often is this ninety five percentof innovations that are brought to market fal to reach any adequate levelof profitability or customer adoption, and that's an iny industry. Whether andthen you kind of add the complexities of healthcare that you just talkedabout, and so the question that I had for you, one of them, is how did youbeat the odds and you just gave us one of those strategies where you know it's. It's supercreative and it seems like you know, you've got to get creative today, yeah.So what really helped me was that I wasn't from healthcare right. So whenpeople an say to you, this is the way it normally works. You subtl healthplan and they do a pilot and and it's a three year sale cycle and I was likewell. Why would you do that right by Wa Wipe? So I was naive enough, let's sayto say: I'm not going to do that, and so I asked the question, and this hasto become a core capability of innovators. Is How do I influence themarket to move? What are the factors that are going to make the market moveand at the time the things that made help plan moveswere their big employers, but the big players that they insured would makethem move. So I started influencing them and saying: Do you think healthplan acts? Your health plan should be doing this and they said absolutely. Wethink they should be doing this, and so we started to influence them and thatput a great amount of influence on the on the health plan. So I think thecapability of innovators has to be. How do we create burning platforms, birdingissues, competitive risk liability risk, whatever it is to me, actually get the market to to movement and that's a skill that wedon't talk about that? Often we saaff it's. If we have tecure to cancer, thenit should be out there tomorrow, Hay, okay, yeah yeah. Absolutely so you know. I did you ever doubt yourself and thenhow did you overcome that in your journey up until the financial crisis honestlyknow, I really felt that you know if you save revery ten pregnant Wowen. Ifyou saying the health jur system, nine hundred osand dollar you've got abusiness there right. So so I never doubted that the problem was, you knowwhen the financial crisis said we ere pretty sizeable company and all of our customers were the biggest.You know M my three biggest customers at the time. My three biggeson playercustomers were general noters, countrywide, financial and Washington,mutual on Ow, Youre yeahnow. But two of...

...the three of those don't exist today,right and General Motors is on the front page about over the Wall StreetJournal every day about needing a bailout from the government right. Theproblem for US- and you talk about doubt- is the fact that I didn'tcontrol those Nacro issues and- and nobody gave up, you know, gave dayve acrap about you know a five hundred person company, so that was very veryhard because normally you can plod a path there. You know it wasn't that youknow you walk across the street and decide whether to go left or right.You'd walk across the street, and you know if the street was going to bethere so yea that was eeing. Difference Right, big difference, huge! You know,none of the normal things that worked about financing and all that type thing.Member customers are going bankrupt, custers not paying their bills notbankrupt with us, but just in their own existe yeah. So that was just literallyabout you know. There's a famous Winston Churchill quote about you knowwhat was happening to London, an World War Two and he says you're goingthrough hell. You just keep going and you just literally had to put your headdown and focus on the pasket hand and ID be lying to. If I told you therewas certainty that woe'd get out of it, because it wasn't even so much aboutthe value of our business sus about what was going to happen in the on theplanet, right right, of course, at the time, unless Otry that the whole world,all it all, the the ton ravlings all the time- and frankly nobody caredabout healthcare at that point, so that was you know, you decide to put your heltdown and there's a ton of doubt, but you know, as many of you sure yourlisteners now, your job is the leader is to you know, have the right mix ofego and humility right th have the ego to do bold things and yet the humilityto understand how you have to learnearn and brow and push and don't ce wrong.It's a lot for people to take on, but you just dout en things Os. I PlayedCollege Baseball, a the best baseball players making out seven out of tenpons right right. Yeah, You d e Use to it.So it's it was n amazing journey. So it sounds like it was really important foryou to really understand what you could control and then how you were going to.You know rap strategic planning and paths around that and then understandwhat you couldn't control and then figure out how to survive through ityeah, and that's one of the things. Of course you know the famous quotes aboutworking on things you can control. One challenge on our end was the factthat we didn't know where revenue is going to come from. You know: We'd co Oto make payroll Ome payall right. So you you havecustomers that you'v Spent Years Building up. You know long termrelationships with and now they're worrying about whether they're going tobe able to pay their own bills so the hardest part about it was that youcouldn't control what your revenue path was. You know, I remember a clientcalling it up and saying no, no we're staying with the program and call Iback a week later and said we can't do it right so so it was, you certainlycould control cost cutting. We tried to...

...be super creative. Like we didn't, leta lot of people go, we we chopped up jobs and for multiple jobs. No, we want.You know we just did whatever we could because Ur. You know our company hadbeen built on the backs of these people, but yeah I mean you really do have towhen you're, when you're an entrepreneur and innovator, you reallydo have to say I meay take on the biggest challengesthat I have to innovate. But it's got to be things I can control. The onlything I would say is: There's always a leg. Yeah there is. There is always away and that's what entreprens a lot of time bring to the table is that youbasically say I don't care how I was done yesterday, Yep right and we lookback at those business and go of course, of course, but at the time you know washardly commonplace to do soansi thing so yeah, it's an onggoing journey m,absolutely even today, so kind of bouncing back to somethingthat we touched on a little bit earlier. I want to talk more about yourpositioning strategy and vessaging strategy around having a radicalinnovation, because I think that that's one of the pit falls in the commercialization process is ifa category doesn't exist, you know how do you position it and howdo you message it to where people understand what you have to offer whenthey don't have anything to compare it to Yep? So there's two big big things right,one is you've, got to bocate a create a theme that people walk on to. Nobodypays attention to the details right. Even we somebody could send us amillion dollars or our mailbox these days and we wouldn't even open it right.So you have the create I theme and number two is you have to find aplayground where nobody else is playing? You know it's not enough to say thatI'm going to have a unique value proposition you've got to basicallycrate a coreatly to Pragoun I'll. Give an n example for us. The theme rightwas that if you have all these people thatare providing healthcare solutions,you know for diabetes and part disease and exercise. Would you get your incentive platformfrom them? Were you would you want to havesomething? That's kind of he, the center of the wheel, Yep and we've painted that thene for ourcustomers and it made sense to our customers. Even though we didn't havethe sales budgets o the markting budget make sense well yeah. If I have webbndand I have health dialogue, and I have this company for biometric screenies,why would I get a incentive program separately from all of those, and sowhat we would say is our theme would be. We are your misters made. No rememberthis because it's a wild go we're the universal remote right, Ot that workson O, and so we could go into a sales meeting and draw a wheel with spokesaround it and say the difference is...

...that if Wemn B authors it to you you'regetting it from one spoke of the wheel right verses, a model of you get itfrom the hub, Yat yeah, and so that theme made sense to them. So theystarted to go to their existing vendors and say: Is this the way you do it andit was selling apples orange so that yeah? What I would say to everybody outthere? You have to create a theme they're not going to look at thedetails of your product. I mean think about. When you buy a car, you don't goopen up the manual right right right or under the bood. You get a feeling ora sense, and the second thing I is finding a playground where nobody elseis playing for us. When we started our company, theaverage American was enrolled in twenty seven reward programs right your hotel,your airline right all that stuff. All we did was be the first to apply FOhealth care m. So we just created a playground where nobody else wasplaying the best. Most recent example of this is there was a super bowl ad byGudweiser in the last super bowl that basically it's a whole miniold timesthing where they deliver corn Syrup, the Mudwiser to the budywiser castleand Byth Wiy Ther Says No. No, no! That's not for us. That's for Miller,light or Corslie, we don't use FORNSORP and they have now defined cornserp asthe criteria for which you should use the by beer. Let me ask you: Have you? Did you evenknow beer head corncer now, do you ever buy beeer because it had corn, surp orDII right? No, no! It's not part of the decision making process right. Theyhave now defined that as a criteria that they win. In fact, cores andMiller light have sued bug wiser over that claim now, which, by the way, isexactly what Gugus er wants yeah. The point is that they found aplayground where they win right, and so what I would encourage your listenersto do. Is it's not enough to find just a unique value proposition or somethingyou have to define a place where you're the only one there could be a reallysmall place, Yep right, because then you define the rules, you define thepricing, you buy, you define the criteria for buying right and that'swhere innovations can really take pold mm. So so that's that's wonderful. Iknow that that's going to be just amazing wisdom for our listeners isthat something that was part of your strategy early on that you found thispiece that you could play in and then did you expand out of it and is that how you got to the sixtymillion yeah? So for us, that's the made sense. We knew that there were alot of hands in the pot that were selling to our customers. Every Day dthere were help plans. There was employers, there were service providersthat were going to be much more well funded than a startud member fo. Forsomebody like me to leave a big Waw job in Yeur, two thousand and one is arelatively big deal now, an you. Do it you'R scorng rightsodifferent fact thanthere wasn't a start up ECO system. If...

...you were a small company and healthcare,everyone's going to say, you're a small company, why would irer do disiinse wit,a small company, so that theme gave us a criteria where we always want.So it didn't matter that we were selling against ednaor selling againsthealth dialogue or Weabon. They didn't it. Didn't make a difference because wewere selling apples to oranges and that and remember we were doing it with outa thousand sales people on the street without huge marketing budgets, but theability to plant in our customers head, we would say the falling whether youbuy it from us or not. This is what you need, and so we ar we were to your point. Wewere basically selling something completely different and we just said:listen, you decide which model is better right and we would say, even ifyou, let's say to a health plan, even if you built it yourself. This is whatyou should build yeah, and so we really started to have adifferent dialogue where it doesn't matter how much money somebody issuspending on marketing. If you're talking about applis the oranges, youjust put yourself in a much better position to be successful mm. How didyou get in front of those key decision makers? And you know one of the thingsthat I hear all the time people ask me Roxy? How do I rise above the noise?You know it's there's an explosion of innovation. You know thousands andthousands of companies. A lot of us are trying to sell our wares to the samepeople. You know how. How do I get in front ofthose decision makers? You know what Wase some of thestrategies that you used around that so I'll tell you what I did do, and I tellyou what I would do so I literally, I literally used to sit down at seveno'clock at night for an hour and leave voice. matsages for CEOS of he largesthealth plant help kire companies in the country. They knew that they weren'tgoing to pick up their phone into in the afternoon. I didn't I wanted to beable to leave a message for the CEO of United Healthcare. That said well. Mysecond point is: It has to be something that is burning platform on the CEOSdesk, yeah right if they wake up every day. Thinking about it right, if it's,what makes them lose their job right or get their B by Wall Street, I don'tcare who it is. They will pull you back so so, if I pick up the phone- and Isaid: Okay, you MPC and Primemark- I'm going to roll out a reward program,that's going to drive behavior and cost savings, and your people I'm going todo it wit, OUMPC or I'm going to do a himark call me back. I think right. The argument is, if youhad that in your competitir didn't have it, it was be competively,differentiating yep right yeah. What? But it's got to be a CEL level issueright. It can't be about Giti. I can't be about product, it has to be out whatabout if a hell Pan was going after the smallbusiness segment right- and you said,...

...you've got to be able to deliver wardsin the small busiess segment, because you're going to lose one to three andit's thirty percent of your book and business, and this is the economicimpact whatever it is. You've got to be able to CRAFP the message that talkssot, Hof things thatre in the CEOS bonus plan, yeah, Absolune Ri. Why does heor she getfired right right, right, Yep? If you do that, they won't you'll get a call back thenext day and they will go. I want you to talk, t somond, so mm. If you don'tdo that. If we said we've got the next great red dress, so the next bluewidget to let me tell you about all these features and functionality. Think about think about. If you werethe CEO, the large company, what phone call would you return yep? It would beonly the ones that craued me competitive risk revenue, riskreputational risk right and if you did I'd be like. Oh, my God, I better talkto this guy or ga Yep, so braily Youin, a lot of we probably had six or sevenout of ten calls back Nice, mastic, okay. So what's the other half of that?What would you do differently today? I just think that that same approachhad to had to when you would get pushed to. Let's say product people right, there'sa lot of people in health care and product that work really really hard,but re workiing with an infrastructure. That's really hard to move Yep. So youhave to understand who, who is willing to be innovative right? Who can beinnovative? So in retrospect you could have en go to market strategy. Thatsaid, like we did we're going to go after health plans first and then laterafter employers. I would actually have pckcompanies that shown apredisposition for innovation doing things differently,because some health plans, just like they're, just not wired, that way, ifyou don't Wa Mani, so it would have been much more muchmore productive. I think to say you know disflude cross versus Thatpe pross.You know some Bo cosses participating, inventure capital funds, they weredoing acquisitions and investments and altays weren't doing any of that. Youknow the big difference between you know: Cambia, right and Blu Cross someblank right right, right, Ma nameless. That was the other thing I would havedifferently would have tried to predispose people that were alreadyshowing an inclination for wanting O in to be yeah. That's definitely one ofthe conversations that I have with clients, because I hear a lot ofinnovators where they don't really understand the diffusion curve. Theydon't understand that the innovators had that predusiess predisposition thatyou're talking about in early adopters versus the laggards, and so they end upgetting really discouraged. They go out into the marketplace and they'rebeating the door down and doing a lot of arm twisting with the laggards, andthey also come back and say I'm too early, you know or they I have asolution for them to solve their...

...problem and they just don't get it andthe realize that they're, focusing on the wrong part of the market, yeahtotally ponpeeplay yeah. So let's talk about your business model a little bitback, then you know: Did Your Business Model look the samewhen you sold the company that it did from day one when you first, you knowlaunched it did. What was interesting was that the wholequote unquote: Reward Industry that existed. You know in banking andairline and all these loyaltry programs, the lion share of profitability, camefrom the actual reward. You know your pharmaceutical sales rap and you hityour numbers and you get a television right and there was a lot of margin inthose televisions. Nobody caredg about the technology, hol be cared about theanalypics and frankly nobody wanted to administer cash. Youdidn't make any morgin on cash right right, so we flip the model on a Ted,and we basically said now. This is a software license business we're goingto license our software NOTSOF, our SASS right, we're gonnawe' gonna havesubscriptions that'll, be paid for by health plans and we don't care whatwere word to use right, we're going to anigrate money off your insurancepremium money, an of UHSA gift cards, Debik cards, but you're going to beplaying for the administration, platforming capabilities to be able todo that. So we were, you know: Seventy percent license about ten percenttransaction fees, a little bit of you know, probablyanother ten percent professional services and another ten percent. We made alittle spread on on Rom Butb, but because we said we're going to be kindof universal with respective rawards that very much was a different modelthat existed existed in the mocker place of that time. Absolutely so you know, as we kind of start towrap up here, a couple of other questions that I have for you is you know if you had to pick one? Whatdo you think was the main decision that that you made in that commercializationprocess that most influenced your success by by far t e the data architecture ofour technology really yeah, because what people said is everyingcensiveprogram is different, which is actually true, you're a woman on a man you'rgoing to get rewarded for this AG, your mint and and the one thing we saidearly on was well hold on a secn. That's true, but the elements are AlAys the same right. You have a behavior right, they're, going to get somethingfor it and so mot. By far the most infuentialdecision we made was to take the time to build out the Dato Architecture in away that meant that we could support any design of incentive programs, andthat was the biggest thing because then think about it. You said I'm going togo. afterdiabetes right, wol product...

...for diabetes, right, Weyou built thewhole product. They gave pregnant women twenty fives or gave pregnant womengift cards or TNOWSE would all be what existed before, which is verycustomized solutions without skillability, so that by far wasprobably the biggest thing we did in the process is to understand how thedata architecture, what we do is going to influence the market yeah. It soundslike that would be either a big road block or a big runway for success.Unhundred percent yeah yeah yeah. So so why do you think some healthinnovators fail and why some sucteen? I think it's always the it's always thesales process. In my opinion, I shouldn't say always a predominantlythe sales process right, because it's just really really complicated to sellinto healthcare. I think innovators spend too much time fon product and notenough time on selling and positioning, and you hate to say that, because youhave to have great products but Tan, but at the end of the day the ability to help have a healthcareorganization understand the economic impact you're going to have or someother impact that you're going to have is paramount, and so- and this goes beyond just youknow- kind of mean candice or minimal Lil product- I'm that I'm playing forbeyond that right. Yeah, I'm talking about I'm talking about when you wakeup every day right and you say what am I going to do right if you're notspending time on some of the things we talked about here with respect toselling rpeditioning and creating themes, you can create the best rigidin the world. I remember it struck me back then one of my developers, mad apretty big technology. Tan said to me: You know, I don't think thits true,then now but then they' be like we hate Microsoft. Products like we hate theMicrosoft technology stack yeah ye everybody uses them Yo like wait. A minute: How does thatwork? Well, marketing and positioning and distribution are incredibly important and I think if youdrow, a Pi toward people probably spend ten percent on it and ninety percent onthe product, where that should be much more like a fift, fifty mix, yeah yeah,absolutely. I was talking to someone the other day and they were year threeand they hadn't lauched, yet because they were still working on the product.An how in that heck, do you even survive with no cash flow Ion y? The way when you show up h withthe product, healthour organizations are still going to say it's off right,right, absolutely, Youre, never it! So it's really more about the economicimpact you have and how you shit into that economic impact yeah or the otherscenario I hear often is you know: can you help me launch this innovationinto the market? Okay? Well, what's your budget and it's like peanuts and Igo okay? Well, how much did you invest in the product, five million? So whatwere you thinking when you invest ID...

...five million in the product, but youwant to go to market with twenty fivesand listen. I would today, ifsomebody said to me start a reward business and health care. I mean I'd,call American Express- and I would say, let's just wrap this into your ewardprogram right, so so that has nothing to do with what technology exists. Itjust lets to do with the fact that so I'll Tok quick story when we werestarting our company. I went to one of my high school friends. His uncle wasHarbey Gollop. Who was the C of American, express okay, went to themand said: Listen We're going to build this reward program, but we reallyshouldn. You already have American Express rewards. So on o we form ajoint venture and we went really really really far down the road with themabout forming a joint venture and then end up blowing up at the end becausethey were concerned about their brand and how it be perceived an healthcare rreally far eathink about today. None of the reward programs would exist. Youliterally would get American spess words for all your healthcare behaviorsand they would own the world they would own the twenty trillion dollar, what amissed opportunity, my goodness. So what do you have to say for thosefellow entrepreneurs, healthcare, innovators that are in the trenchesright now today and different stages of the commercialization process? Yeahnumber one is positioning. You've got to be able to come up with thispositioning. The themes we're talking about the playgrounds that nobody elseis playing. That is your most important thing that you can do Tou respect.Nobody cares about you creating the next Epso, the next y. If you can'tposition yourself in a way that those two things number one creates rillimpact economic impact or liability or risk or competitive impact and number two, you know: Does it in away where you're going to stand out from member Etna, signa united, likethere's thousands of sales professionals out there on the streetselling for really large organizations right? Your number one challenges howyou cut through that yeah. So to me, it's your positioning and this findingyour playground where nobody else is playing, which is the most criticalthing that you can that you can do absolutely so today. My last questionfor you today you are running the lonely entrepreneur, so you know justkind of communicate. I, through the Lins of the health innovators, of whatyou're doing there and and what value they would receive. Yeah I mean wereally want T, try to do it good, Wong Eantrenmaris and try to empower peoplewith the knowledge and skills they need, and we've mentioned a couple of themhere, but today you know where you go to find that as you go to a milliondifferent places, you know if you walk into a starbucks and the we were as ahundred people where they get the foundational information they need. Youget a hundred different answers. We really tried to do is to put that inour platform we call it thelonely entrepreneur, learning community andit's designed to be kind of a one, stop...

...shop for the knowledge and tools andresources that you need and we wrap around it. Support in the form of acommunity where you get your questions answer than coaching and and so we'retrying to say to people for those of you that can afford somebody like youor somebody like me to coach you one on one, which I know we builth do yeah,wouldn't it be great to be able to for throwus it's five hundred ollars a yearhave access to all this knowledge and learning, and also support system thathopefully can bring some of the ideas we've talked about here, int into oneplace that you can act, Ess officiently. So that's what we're doing. I thinkit's very I thing is very valuable. Okay, thank you, roring Mup, Forup, orhaving fun trying to help everybody absolutely so. How do folks get a holdof you if they've got questions, maybe about how to you know, join the lonelyentrepreneur or just you know, questions about their innovationprocess. Yeah happy to so anybody wants to reach out to me: can reach tree aMichael Dot dermer at Lonley Entreprenercom and about the lolyentrepreneur. Just go to lonely, entreprenercom and also the book isavailable on Amazon called the monly entrepreneur and happy to talk throughyou know. I've been through it, you've been through it, it's an incrediblyrewarding but difficult journey, and if I can answer a question or if you needmore help happy to do anything, I can do wonderful. Thank you so much foryour time today, Michael. I really appreciate it and thanks for sharingyour wisdom with our audience, thanks of so pleasure, being with you bybye. What's the difference between waunchingand commercializing, a health care novation many people will watch a newproduct. Few will commercialize it to learn the difference between watchand commercialization and to watch past episodes of the show head to our videoshow page at Dr Roxycom. Thank so much for watching and listening to the showyou can subscribe to the latest episodes on your favorite podcast, APPlike apple podcasts and spotify, or subscribe to the video episodes on ourYoutube Channel, no matter the platform just search Coyq with Dr Roxy untilnext time. LET'S RAISE OUR COIQ.

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