Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 2 years ago

How Self-Insured Employers & Benefits Brokers Might Be the Most Fertile Ground for Innovation in Healthcare w/Dave Chase

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

One of the side effects of a broken healthcare system is that there isn't enough fertile ground for innovation. How can innovators choose the most viable business models and go-to-market strategies? Where can we optimize and accelerate within the system in order to create growth? How can we rise above all the noise in the market?

On this episode, healthcare entrepreneur, influencer, and Health Rosetta co-founder, Dave Chase shares how to solve the key issues that hinder successful commercialization. 

 

3 Things We Learned 

The healthcare system can lead innovations to the zombie graveyard.

The optics of landing a big health system seems like the golden ring, but it too often ends up being a boat anchor for most innovators. Everything that encompasses the essence of a health system is the polar opposite of what it takes to successfully bring an innovation to market. Proof of this is a zombie graveyard littered with promising healthcare innovations that failed to materialize. Why? One reason is that we have to be incredibly smart about picking our customers.

 

Benefits brokers are an overlooked linchpin to solving healthcare.

The relationship between employers and benefits brokers is the tip of the spear when solving problems in healthcare. Benefits brokers are the single most underestimated role in healthcare and the economy. For better or for worse, they make the decisions that most companies defer to and that’s what drives the state of healthcare. 

 

Think beyond your own innovation.

Don’t solely focus on promoting your own products. One of the best ways to accelerate the adoption of your innovation and create a highly defensible market position is to create a new product category and establish a leadership position in it. We should seek to be the voice in our sphere of influence for the category. Be a thought leader. By taking this approach, great outcomes will inevitably come your way. 

 

 

Welcome to Coiq and first of its kind video program about health innovators, early adoptors and influencers and their stories about writing the roller coaster of healthcare innovation. I'm your host, Dr Roxy, founder of Legacy DNA marketing group, and it's time to raise our COIQ. Welcome back to the show coiq listeners. On today's episode, I am really excited to speak with Dave Chase. He is our guest today. He is known as one of the most influential people in digital health and he is a author, advocate and Bester entrepreneur and he is transforming healthcare. So welcome to the show, Dave. Thanks so much for having me on. Looking forward to the chat. Excellent. So you know, before we get started, there's a lot of people out there that know who you are, but there's probably some people in our audience who don't. So let's start off maybe by you just telling a little bit about your background and what you do. Okay, sure, yeah, my background. I started my career and consulting with work in dozens of hospitals and basically helping them get as big a bill out as paid as fast as possible. I was I'm kind of doing some of my penance now for them. And and then I went and started Microsoft healthcare partner ecosystem. So you think of Microsoft, kind of makes lego blocks other people's assemble those into solutions. And then I detoured away from healthcare for a dozen years and was in digital media and whatnot, and then came back about a decade ago, and I sort of joke I, like you know it Miss Essentially a technology entrepreneur historically, and you always look. Any entrepreneur looks for a market gap. Yes, I went looking for a market gap and what I found was the greatest heist in American history and I couldn't unsee it. And so that company through that process I learned a lot more and I'm really as some people call systems entrepreneur. I think in terms of industry, ecosystems and and have had the fortune to do a couple of those big industry shifts. And that really put me on this mission because I essentially been on this scavenger up for the last decade. WHO's cracked the coat on healthcare? Everybody knows it's broken, but for most people it's indecipherable as to how to make sense of it. And I found these people would crack the code and and the this metaphor came to mind of the Rosetta stone, because that helped decode the formally indecipherable Egyptian hieroglyphics, and these people had cracked the code. Thus the Health Rosetta, which is this blueprint that it wasn't me crawl, you know, climbing up to the top top of some mountain and, you know, crossing my legs and dreaming stuff up. This is stuff. It had been, amazingly, most people don't...

...know about it, and just remarkable things, things that happened. So it was this dichotomy between this kind of dystopian reality that we're in today. We're we're bankrupting families and country and producing mediocre outcomes, while also creating record levels of burnout and even suicide amongst our clinicians. On the other hand, these people would crack the code. Was Utopia by comparisons, I kind of joke, but just a marketing problem, right. Everybody they knew about this system. That's not utopia, it's reality. They write mainstream yet so my mission is to really just mainstream that concept, and so we're doing we've started with the employer arena and we can talk more about that, but that's basically our mission is to you know, I think of if a health plan was a person, you'd want it to be your mother, right, a great mother. You know, they look out for you, they keep you healthy, they help bringing back to Health Ay. You know, when some idea sounds like it might be a good idea, it's really not. You know, they'll keep you out of harm's way. So I that's kind of the the sort of metaphor I think about in terms of a great health plan. I don't think I've ever heard that before. That's interesting. Yeah, I think. I think I came up with it, but who knows? Stuff and them you just all those funny I was talking to gut a couple days ago. It was an investor and we're talking about he sort of set it in so many words. I was like, wow, that's interesting. Somebody else would say that, so I'm sure somebody else try. Yeah, that's great. I love the work that you're doing, you know. So everything on this show is really about, you know, US coming together, sharing stories, sharing some of the challenges in Best Practices to kind of move the needle in an industry. That's that's very complex, very difficult, but to help health innovators be more successful in their commercialization of innovations. So, you know, my you and I have had some conversation about this phenomenon of the Zombie graveyard. So let's just jump right into it and and so, you know, let's talk. You know, what's your perspective of the Zombie Graveyard? And why do you think some health innovators succeed and why some fail? Yeah, I mean it's really difficult because there's a lot of people's you know, sort of pushing you a particularly investors, and sort of the optics of landing the big health system is is supposed to be the Golden Ring, when I think it's it ends up being a boat anchor for most of these organizations. And that is, you know, really almost everything. That is the essence of what a large health system is about. Is it the polar opposite of...

...what it takes to bring innovation to market. And so, you know, a good rule of th I think, is, you know, don't pursue a customer that's larger than your install base. And unfortunately most of the startups are pursuing that. And you know, to be maybe kind of blunt, a lot of the innovation is trying to either pay the cow path or put lipstick on a pig, or saying here's the big challenge. There are actually organizations who are fully invested in the new model, and I think what a lot of people are doing is trying to sell, you know, the equivalent of selling, you know, new commerce tools into sears and Kmart in the late s when, of course they would have been better off working with Amazon, right or some other ECOMMERCE innovator. And there are the equivalents of the Amazons and, you know, wayfarers or whatever out there. The challenges, and that's kind of what we try to do at some level, is kind of do this market, you know making or matchmaking between those, and so that's, you know, you avoid being a Zombie number one by picking your customers. That sounds kind of crazy because you're just trying to survive. Yeah, and I've been there, but that, you picking your customers will be the life or death decision for your business. As my belief, and and I believe if some you know, large organization is coming and knocking on which they did, because I had a fair amount of visibility. I think the burden of proof is on them of how, you know, demonstrate how you have worked with a very small organization and put this through, had success and reached it to the old organization. I know some successful, successful companies, one of which was acquired by fit that they had tons of peer reviewed studies and things they've done with health systems that prove their approach worked and it never went to scale on any of those hell systems because, at the end of the day, though, what they were doing was going to reduce revenue for that hell system while helping patients get healthier. HMM. So that's the type of thing you have to be very discipline on who you choose as your customers and I think most people are just in survival mode and just trying to get oh, any customer, and believe me, I've made that mistake. So I'm just trying to help other people avoid that mistake. Yeah, absolutely, so, so true. You know, they're just so, so desperate for cash flow or so desperate for the big story right of the big flagship that they can kind of hang over their brand. So tell me a little bit more about this match making. Yeah, I mean the way we've decided to...

...go about doing it is really just go up stream, because I looked at all the dysfunction and healthcare, of which there's many, many areas of dysfunction, always came back to the way we purchase healthcare at the core is radically broken and until we change that, none of the downstream changes make a difference. And so where we're focused in on is the employer. That's the tip of the spear. It's half of the revenue of the industry. It's probably three quarters of industry profits. No Act of Congress has required. As soon as the employer has the mindset shift that. No, fixing healthcare isn't like solving Middle East piece with I think a lot of them look at it that way. Like it. They like that fix too, but it seems hopeless and out of their control. Yeah, none, it's actually absolutely in control. Where a seven person company, we're doing it. I've seen, you know, companies over Tenzero, you know, employees do it. And so we're doing is match making the employees employers, I should say, through we've kind of been, you know, building demands, if you think of supplying the man through the book and media that I do. These people go okay, enough, like we got to do something, and then we match them up with accredited benefits consultants. I believe that benefits can sold and benefits brokers are the single most underestimated role in the entire healthcare industry probably, by extension, the US economy, for better for worse. Sadly it's been mostly for worse. They make the decisions that have that most companies defer to their decisionmaking and that is what has led to twenty years of wage stagnation decline for the working in middle class. And so what's happening there, and we're seeking to accelerate, is remember stockbrokers. You know, they went the way the Dodo bird. The smart ones reinvented themselves as financial and wealth advisors right that's where they had more aligned interests. And so these great benefits advisors, they're frankly underpaid their worth their weight in gold. They're the ones who, frankly, we model the program after. They're the ones who have shown over several years, even a couple decades, how to do this. And so then we do this matchmaking and it's kind of weird that we have this industry, this trillions of dollars that are spent and there's no objective third party mark of quality, whether it's for a benefits consultant or where that's for a health plan, even a healthcare provider organization. I mean have these bogus like you know, we're the best hospitals or whatever. That's largely just a marketing charade. Yeah, and so we say, okay, we're going to represent the interests of the play, the citizen, the member and identify these folks who, unfortunate...

...the way the industry was set up for benefits brokers, they're pitching themselves as buyers agents and getting paid like sellers agents. Or put it another way, if I was to sue you and also pay for your attorney, that would be ridiculous, but that's how the healthcare industry is work. So the folks we accredit, they at a minimum they disclose all their fees. In we found up to seventeen undisclosed revenue streams. Better yet, they're all only paid directly by the employer or the Union or whoever's the purchaser. MMM. So how how is that making a difference? Yep, Yep, some of those stories. Yeah, I mean it's amazing what happens. We had really been doing this in earnest, if kind of trying to accelerate what was already happening. It's not like we came up with all this stuff, but what we see. Almost every day I get another story of this city, this manufacture, this retailer. They drop their spending thirty percent, fifty percent. How the heck did they do that and what's the impact of that? Well, how did they do that? It's pretty simple. Unit cost. We're paying too much on a a cost basis for things like imaging and surgeries, basically medical care, and we're paying too much on a unit cost basis for medication. You get rid of what we call pricing failure. Where there's pricing failures is when there's no correlation between what you pay in the quality you get. Right, yeah, when you get rid of that and you remind people, Gosh, healthcare walks have known for at least a decade that a third to a half of all healthcare spending is waste. Price Water, House Coopers Institute of Medicine. There's no surprise there. It's probably only up since they they did that. And the other thing that a lot of people aren't recognizing as the value creators and healthcare, the clinicians, the nurses, the doctors, the pharmacists. They're getting less than twenty five cents of every dollar. And so once you remove, frankly, price gauging and, in some cases over treatment, then you can have that impact and the real impact. Sure it's great for the company to have spend less money, but virtually every company says, you know what, we already committed those dollars to our employees and so we're not going to put that to our bottom line. We're going to put that back to our employees. And we've seen everything from companies paying for college educations, much bigger dollars in the profit sharing pool just, you know,...

...getting rid of having premium holidays if people have premiums for their employees. You know couple great examples recently they came in. One was a it was a company that owns convenience stores and that a hourly worker and she had some condition that would put her on an expensive medication and once they change their drug or caurement, the cost went down so much the employer said, hey, we don't want to have cost sharing for that, we just want them to be well and for that working class individual, what that meant was for the first time since she'd had kids, she was able to take them on vacation. Wow. Yeah, so that's a type of thing. Or the forklift driver who's able to retire with a seven figure retirement payout because in their case it was an employee stock owned company, so that they reduce their spending from eight million to three and a half million while they improve the benefits for the employees. That all went to the bottom line increase the value of that company. So the retirement payout went dramatically up for a guy who topped out at forty FIVEZERO dollars a year. So that's the thing that really excites us is, you know, these people who are able to have a college education or able to take a vacation or have a retirement, when most people, frankly, the way I look at it is our healthcare system has shoved people down Masle's Higher Arkey to where there and survival mode. And, if you don't Mind Tho was this moment for me that was really kind of this Aha moment where I woke up March ninth, two thousand and sixteen, look at the news, the news from the Michigan Primary for the presidential campaign. Bernie and trump won, and I was like, Huh, that is not normal, right, what is going on here? And you start to hear about populism and a google. Exactly is populism? When does populism rise? Populism rises when there's economic depression. Like, what exactly is economic depression? Well, one of the definitions is two or more years of wage stagnation and decline. By that definition, over half of the workforce is in a twenty yearlong economic depression, overwhelmingly, at least ninety five percent, created by healthcare. Is Employers are spending a lot more money. It's just all all here. And so we think of an economic depression that is more than twice as long as the Great Depression, then you have to ask yourself, how could the Bernie trump phenomenon not happen? And we have our healthcare system to thank for that. HMM. So I love the stories that you're telling in the real human impact and you know, we've got to get more of those stories out. Or just really encouraged all of us as an industry that change is happening and it's...

...possible. Seems like you know the the eight hundred pound gorilla and the room and you know it. Like you had said before, you know, we all know that it's dysfunctional and we're all moving to make change and sometimes it can be really discouraging because you just think that you know, it's not happen or it's not happening fast enough. So these stories are just really great. How does this match making in impact or influence a health innovator? Yeah, they need to do differently in order to be a part of this ecosystem that you've created for real change. Yeah, I mean this was part of, you know, my last health tech startup. I was just frustrated, like why, you know, isn't there more fertile ground for startups? I mean, I actually one of the reasons after I left Microsoft sixteen years ago, people like, Oh, you're going to do a healthcare startups like no, healthcare is where startups go to die, right right here. But I, like businesses, it survived. Yep, and that's where I sort of got at the root cause issue of that. And so I think for the innovators, obviously it depends on what area you're in right in terms of you can you know, there's services innovation. I think a lot of the most interesting thing happening is healthcare services innovation, from primary care, physical therapy, behavioral, hell Al. There's a number of things that are really exciting there. And then it's the things around it, certainly where we're particularly focusing. I wasn't health benefits guy. I mean I'd receive benefits, you know, as a CEBEO. Yeah, but I didn't really know about health benefits, and so there's a lot of activity around that and so certainly, you know, I would encourage people to look at our blueprint that that's on our side and say, hey, how could I add value in that? Because actually tweeted out this morning, you know maybe a also fillabill, you know, salty or something. I was like, you know, Ninety eight percent of health tech that you know, venture backed. Health Tep companies are, you know one just gaming a reimbursement system, either Medicare advantage or the employers. They're paving cowpas, they're putting lipstick on pigs or they are. It's just kind of a silicon valley boys with toys centric, you know, let's reach the worried well or the narcissists, versus actually tackling the the big problems. You know where the always are really spent, and the good news is there are endless problems to solve. You just have to get at the areas that are actually addressing. For example, you know, you can worry about you know, these like well fitness tractors, and, believe me, I'm you know, of my drug of choice is exercise. So I'm like way into that.

I was, you know, collegiate athlete, Blah, Blah Blah. Like I believe in personal wellness, but actually the problems that we have are the five percent of the population who consumes fifty to eighty percent of the healthcare dollars. And a lot of those things aren't even traditional healthcare things, they are psychosocial things, and so there's opportunities around them. And so a big part of it is, you know, deep whatever sort of is an area of passionate, area of expertise. Do a deep immersion. Get Out of your office, get out into the world and and you get into this. The Nice thing about this ecosystem we have is it's a magnet, right. It magnets attract things and they repel things, and so there's a bunch of people who, I'm sure think well, they either just don't know who we are, which is fine, or they just think we're crazy or delusional or whatever, and that's fine right. It's yeah, I'd ramber. We don't waste each other's time and the other people, whether they're a doctor pt or independent pharmacist or health tech innovator, like it brings these people together in those collisions and those deep dialog like you can't not see opportunities to innovate once you get out there and because there are a multitude of problems, I can sure you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, there's definitely a lot of market gaps, a lot of problems out there to be solved. So, in your experience, you know, what are some of the strategies around Best Practices for, you know, creating a viable business model in healthcare? I mean, obviously everybody's business model is going to be different, but they're you know, there's a lot of complexities in building out an effective or viable business model in healthcare with, you know, the payer not being the buyer and the not being the user, and you know. So, just in your experience, what are some of the strategies that you would recommend for our listeners who, yeah, and just today building out solutions and trying to figure out how they're going to take it to market. Yeah, I mean it's it is an extreme challenge. I always tell you know, many of my friends are in the tech industry and their engineers and, as I I guys like the the make or break thing will be that combination of business model and go to market strategy. Yep, and if you don't get that right, the greatest technology in the world won't make a look a difference because it will never see the light of day. And so, you know, the part of what we're trying to do is, you know, simplify the value chain. You know it is complex by design and and it is remarkably straightforward once you remove this...

...and then you rebuild this layer and and so I think a big part of, as I mentioned, the immersion is spending time with these new models. And so, for instance, I had been writing about direct primary care as a healthcare services innovation boys starting about a decade ago, and I saw it as a microcosm of where the health care system needed to go. Wasn't the one silver bowl or anything, but it was an important piece. YEA, there was a guy unbeknownst to me, who said, okay, that's pretty interesting. I'm going to go into these practices that are doing this and see what their problems are and what were they doing. They were because it's a membership model rather traditional primary care is all about, you know, billing and volume and and referrals and all that. And they and the what were they doing? They were like using excel, they were using gym membership software because they had this monthly membership. And and then you'd get they trying to sell the employers and some employers would cover the member or eighty percent of the employee and maybe a family member. And you got into is like wow, there's all this nuance there. Yeah, and so there this is company called Hint, Hint Health. So they said, Gosh, we're just going to build, build that, and so they become basically operating system for, in that case, payment eligibility, which seems like it's really simple because it is a more simplified model, but there's still quite a few nuances. You still have to verify eligibility in these models, even though, yeah, you remove the forty percent insurance bureaucracy tax, so you have that type of thing where like go in see, you know, at the end of the day it is about the interaction between, you know, patients and clinicians. And if you go in study those new models in a particular area that's relevant to you. Could be in, you know, pharmacogenetics, it could be in a technology thing. Those things then reveal the problems and that's a big Steve Blank as well known as is sort of customer development and means start up, you know stuff. And then he's always about get out of the office. You know, get in there, go in with your hypotheses. But you know a quote, I think it's from mark and reese, and he says, you know, have strong opinions weekly help, you know, being ready to prove be proven wrong. And so that would be my advice is to really get out there and is I keep Hart on. There's a lot of problems. You just have to figure out what's the problem space that I can be focused in on and you can and stay quite focused. Right. It's and I'm, you know, exhibit a of being guilty on this and the AH my God, is that like even a character trait of an entrepreneur, a serial entrepreneur? It's so many all these problems to solve. Yeah, yeah,...

...exactly. Yeah, yeah, okay. So, you know, you use this term lead, like ecosystem. Yep, we've kind of touched on the little bit, but just help me understand that term and what you know by that. Yeah, that's a great so lead, for those who don't know, is from the US Green Building Council. So this is a model for how to build more sustainably built and operated buildings. And what lead did over the two thousand and twenty five year period was mainstream. Is wants fringe idea to where it's just the way you know buildings are built now, whether you care about the environment or not, it's it's much more bang for the book. It's better. Yes, it is better for the environment and what they I like the analogy because the built environment sort of like healthcare. There wasn't this magic day where all the old polluting buildings got raised in all magic be green built the next day. Yes, very French, very local. What happened was the old model with you know waned over time. The new rows over time. Happened geography by geography. Places like Portland, Boulder, Austin were early adopters of this Prud it out. And what lead did was they had credited professionals like architects. How do you do this? There's this blueprint and sometimes I do that. What they didn't do is say, put recycled bins and, you know, polluting buildings and will call them green. Right. First a lot of what passes for innovation and healthcare is the equivalent of putting recycle bins and including buildings. And so they said, okay, here's this blueprint, we're going to correct the architects and they certify buildings. And so we started with we're accrediting the quote unquote, architects of health plans. These benefits professionals, and then over time, I could see a day where we would certify health plans. You think about today. You've got the biggest chunk of the workforce. Are millennials today, largest generation history. MILLENNIALS and postmillennials will be seventy five percent of the workforce and five years they get things like fair trade and lead and I would foresee a day where somebody's looking at too job opportunities that are otherwise equal ones. got a you know, something like a Health Rosetta. Who knows? If we do it, but a health Rosetta Certified Gold Plan. The other doesn't. It would be a no brainer where you go. You could even take that into the investment level. I would. I would argue a company that's not doing any type of things is failing in their shareholder for duciary duty as well. As there's the regulation round employer plans, is called Arissa, passed in the forward administration. I would also argue their failing in their for duciary duty there. And so it's odd that we have the street trillion plus market and there's no object the third party mark of call it. And so that's where I think that lead.

Analogy is pretty good and, you know, not perfect, but we're trying to sort of follow that rough pathway of how do you mainstream something over a ten to twenty year period, and we're fully cognizant of it taking that long. I would argue that if if somebody looked as and said, oh, they think they're going to fix healthcare in the next couple years, they would rightfully say these guys are delusional. Yeah, when you have something that's a ten to twenty year time horizon and it's grass roots bottom up, it becomes less and less delusional and once you have all you know, it's indisputable, people can touch and feel it with their own eyes, then that's when change happens. But it always right and it's just that's how change happens. Yeah, that overnight. Yeah, I mean the other thing that you see with these great societal problems that have been you know, I don't say they're solved, but we're solving things like civil rights and climate, better food and Energy and defense, these types of things. Guess what, they always start grass roots and then at some point, you know, and it's off the radar of the, you know, John q public, but then at some point there's a catalytic media event that then brings it into the public consciousness. So we're just quietly work in a way. And sure, I got my books. I'm a consultant on the resident which is doing well, and that's getting some of these stories out there. But we'll have things to to, you know, raise up the visibility. There's a new book coming out from one of the most prominent physicians in the country, Marty mccarry, called the price we pray we pay. He he talks about what we're doing and what our ecosystem is doing in the context of this broader thing and he actually, despite what we're seeing and the problems he points out, he's quite optimistic. There's a lot of great stuff going on and we need more of that. Yeah, maybe I'll have him in on the show. He's great. I would definitely encourage you to. Yeah, so that one of the last questions that I have for you is, you know, there's just seems to be this magnet in healthcare, right. So there's, you know, people like ourselves who've been in the industry for decades, and then there's all these other industries that are trying to get their piece of the healthcare Pi. So so that, you know, the healthcare industry in itself is just really saturated with so many people like ourselves that are advocating for change and and talking about different phenomenons. And you've done a phenomenal job at what I call rising above the noise. Right. So part of that's been through some of your writing and your books and and kind of having these unique ideas that you get out there and promote. But you know, when I think about the peril allows of what you've done for your own personal brand and your businesses. You know, what...

...recommendations would you even have for the health innovators that are trying to rise about the noise, because they too are in a sea of a hundredzero plus innovations that are trying to target the same audiences. Yeah, what do you recommend for them? Yeah, I mean there's different ways to get out of it. I'd say the system change model were following. The usence of it is you find things that are working and figure out how ways to massily replicate that. This was a system change model that lifted tens of millions of people out of poverty in India and is remaking to keep part of the food system. And so what what they've done and what we're doing, and what I'd encourage people to do is pick a geography. The one you're in right, Dave Chase, is not going to fix healthcare and noma or the keepsie or wherever right. There's going to be people in that community and whatever role you have to play, be a catalyst in that community. You have influence. It might be your business owner or you know a business owner, or your a memo, you know on a board of this school or a nonprofit, or there's a sphere of influence you have. So I am I mean start small, right and solve it for a school that serct solve it for a manufacture. Bring these ideas and and you know who wouldn't want to? I mean, if you actually look at the health, put aside the money, if you look at the health impact of putting in these kinds of plans and how phenomenally improve the health outcomes are. If it was in a pill, it would be the biggest blockbuster drifting entry. And I look at is we're open source on what we're doing. To me, you know, if somebody had to cure for cancer and they kept it secret, that would be a criminal in my view. Yeah, and so share this with your sphere of influence. And you know, of course, if you have a role to play in that, that's all the great, all the better. And I'm a big believer in what I've done over the years is, you know, don't go you know, sort of beat your chest about your particular product, be the sort of voice in your sphere of influence for the category of what you're doing and it can be the broad category and then at a certain point somethings else. And what do you guys do? I mean that was the things that happen to me with my last company was acquired by Web ind and the you know, I had been speaking to the been asked to speak at, you know, kind of the lifetime achievement wards for, you know, one of the probably the largest medical device company in the world. You know, speaking with a CEO their vpr and D and and you know here they were a large client of web and D and metscape. The combination there and the...

...salespeople had never I mean they were free four levels down in the organization. They like how in that are you pulling together as meeting with all these people? I like, I don't know. I was interesting. You know, I wasn't, because it because what happened May, the way that came out of the VPR and d cold called me at some point and I was writing about patient engagement in that case and he want to talk about and talk to him and I wasn't like work in my pitch into the first sixty second call show what a certain points like. What exactly do you guys do? You know, you're not just a full time rider, right. It's like no, yeah, that doesn't actually pay the bills so and he's like, Oh, we actually need that and let me you know dot a dot and so that's a type of things. Sell your category and be a thought leader, whatever sphirit influence you have, and inevitably things come your way if you're particular, if you're doing it from a point of good will and trying to help people for the right reasons. Yeah, absolutely, well day. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with me and our audience today. I so appreciate it. So, for those that want to follow you, stay connected, learn more about health Rosetta or your lead like ecosystem. How do they get Ahold of you? Yeah, they can just go to health Rosetta Dot Org and if they you know, your your viewer. If they want to go whack friends, they can get a free download of my books there and, you know, sign up get connected on just about every you know thing. I'm at Chase A, whether it's on twitter or Linkedin or whatever. And so if they want to connect with me personally, you know, that's the way to do it and I'm happy to, you know, connect people with I mean that's one of my joys and my guess gifts, is being a connector with folks, and so I've welcome them to do that too. Excellent. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity. Bye. Bye. What's the difference between launching and commercializing a healthcare in avation? Many people will launch a new product, few will commercialize it. To learn the difference between launch and commercialization and to watch past episodes of the show, head to our video show page at Dr Roxycom. Thanks so much for watching and listening to the show. You can subscribe to the latest episodes on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcasts and spotify, or subscribe to the video episodes on our youtube channel. No matter the platform, just search coiq with Dr Roxy. Until next time, LET'S RAISE OUR COIQ.

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