Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 1 year ago

How one millennial founder is building his healthcare startup w/ Evan Ehrenberg


Launching a successful startup is hard. It’s even harder when there’s a global pandemic affecting every aspect of the market.

Market shakeups aren’t new, but when you’re new to the market, your ideas could be the shakeup that’s needed!

Fresh eyes, fresh ideas, fresh approaches can be a breath of fresh air in a stalled market. And Evan Ehrenberg and his company threw open the window with their millennial mindsets.

In this episode, come hear how Evan and his team at Clara Health used a unique mix of traditional and unorthodox approaches to building a successful startup out of a college project.

Evan’s candor, transparency, and vulnerability, quickly pull our listeners in as he recounts the struggles and triumphs, and unique approaches, millennial companies face during COVID-19.  

Here are the show highlights:

  • The path from idea, to a minimum viable product, to scalable product (3:58)
  • What success can look for a startup (8:34)
  • What it’s like to be a millennial innovator (11:22)
  • How transparency and vulnerability in conversations can spark ideas (17:36)
  • Combatting discrimination and ageism in the company and when pitching (18:54)
  • Steps to take that can help battle burnout and increase productivity (24:48)
  • Using conversations to help build stronger trust and credibility (31:48)

Guest Bio

Evan Ehrenberg is Co-founder and CEO of Clara Health, a company that exists to help patients obtain better access to breakthrough clinical trials.

Before founding Clara Health, Evan managed AI research at MIT, Pal, and Palantir.

He is a USERN (Universal Scientific Education and Research Network) Ambassador and a recipient of the Forbes 30 under 30 award.

Having received his Bachelor’s in Cognitive Science from UC Berkeley at the age of 16, Evan went on to become the youngest Ph.D. candidate at MIT.

If you’d like to reach out to Evan, or simply want more information about Clara Health, you can follow him on Twitter at @EvanEhrenberg or @ClaraHealth, on LinkedIn at Evan Ehrenberg or reach out on their website at

Welcome to Coiq, where you learnhow health innovators maximize their success. I'm your host, Dr Roxy, founderof Legacy DNA and international bestselling author of how health innovators maximize market success.Through candied conversations with health innovators, earlier, doctors and influencers, you'll learn howto bring your innovation from idea to startups to market domination. And nowlet's jump into the latest episode of Coiq. Welcome back to the show coiq listeners. On today's episode we have Evan Arenberg with us, who is theCO founder and CEO of Clara. Welcome to the show, Evan. Thankyou so much for having me, Roxy. It's plased to be here. Sotell her audience a little bit about your background and what you've been innovatingthese days. Sure thing. So my personal background is a bit interesting.I ended up going to college multiple very young. I saw when I waseleven. Went to you that again. I sorry, college when I waseleven years old. I went to UC Berkeley for a bachelor's degree in CognisScience and competational modeling and then went over to mit from my PhD in competitionon your o science. Not was sixteen and towards the very end of myPhD, when I was getting ready to defend my thesis, I joined aclose friend of mine who was starting a company that would turn into Clara Health, and then actually ended up dropping out of my PhD just a few monthsbefore defending to focus on it full time. And so, oh my gosh,I didn't know that. Yeah, a little interesting. Men, youget bit by the entrepreneurial bug. Oh, absolutely, it was. It wasthe most some most fun work overdone and incredibly impactful. So it was, you know, was it was. So it was a heavy decision,certainly, but it was ultimately an easy one. It's because we were veryfortunate to be really heavily impacting people's lives, saving lives in some cases, andto compare, you know, doing that versus getting the PhD, whichis just a piece of paper, really kind of became clear which which wasthe right decision. So so, yeah, and and and it's some. Sowhat Clara health does is we're sort of this matching platform that was tryingto help make it much easier to access clinical trials. So if you lookat all of the inequities in healthcare, clinical trials are one of the oneswhere you see the most significant inequity and also police diversity. So they're justincredibly difficult to access, to like even to learn about them, to findwhich ones are available and then to actually get involved in particip paid. Thereis just really, really high bars of... literacy. It really matters whereyou are, like, you know, academic institutions that are in city centersare running more clinical trials. They're going to be more ready to talk withyou about them. Oftentimes, you know, if your position isn't the person writingwith clinical trial, they often don't even know about it. So it'sreally hard to get help to learn about them and then you have to oftentake time off of work. They're just very inflexible people to work with,and so we set out to build the platform to just take all these wonderfulconsumer experiences that we're seeing with, you know, Airbnb for for renting,you know people's places to Uber and lift for getting rides, and tried toapply as much of the things that work. They're into clinical trials. Of course, with all the regulations and everything, there's something is that I don't alwayscarry over, but trying to make them a lot easier to take partin, so that we're really democratizing that access so everybody can get involved havereally, really easy experience and kind of started off just as as a projectto see what we could do, but we're fortunate enough to have it sortof turned into into a business and, you know, three the investment actuallyscaled that up into something that's been so far very successful that we're really proudof. What a great story. So I have to say I think ateleven I was still playing with barbies. Don't get me wrong, I wasstill playing with Legos and things to rights. I'm going to do some cognitive signson the side over here. That's awesome exactly. HMM. So takeus through, you know, from the time that you determined that this wasgoing to be a business venture and not a hobby or a competition or proudmore side project, to you know, some of the milestone accomplishments over thelast few years. Let's do that, sure. So you know, certainlywhen we first started taking even just like that like friends and family type investment, that was you know, I think even the decision to go out andtry to do that was already a pretty big shift of like okay, youknow this. This seems like I could really work. But even then,you know, we looked at it as this could work, but you know, startups are extraordinarily fickle and odds are really against us. But there's peoplewho believe in US, who want us to work on this. Will definitelygive it our best shot and we didn't really have any we had high hopes, but our expectations were friendly. Quite well, we you know, we'relist we were really stick about it and thought, you know, hopefully welearned some things, maybe we can influence some industry leaders to think in adifferent way from from conversations with them. But you know, it probably wasn'tgoing to go very far, just because it's really hard to start a business. And I had some experience working on a start up with my my PhDThesis Advisor, but you know, even that was very slow and everything.Yeah, so so that was kind of...

...what we got things started and wegot some initial little bit of capital from from Vinci family and then we gotsome capital from some of the kind of like college investors, Soo's dorm roomfund and rough draft ventures that invest small, small ish check sizes into student ledcompanies so companies run by people who are still in their graduate or undergraduateprograms, which both myself my cofunder were at the time. And so withthat, I think all in together we had maybe a hundred thousand dollars.So we hired you, hired some team members, started working on some mvps. Ultimately, Bolly, should just put all our time into business development andmarket research, because the mvps that we developed were scrapped very quickly, practicallyuseless. So definitely a lot of learning about what not to spend money on. But we're fortunate enough, through to some advisors, we got connected tosome VC firms in the bay area and then those VC firms connected us withVlie, fantastic angel investors who had such wonderful advice, and quickly we kindof pulled together, you know, what would be like sort of our preseedround that had more mind like substantially actually hire on team and really, youknow, scrap the MVP and make something that was more of a product,not not minimum biable. Yeah, and you know, the the struggle wason. It was always really tough battle, as is anything in healthcare. Somany barriers accut against so many times that we thought, you know,this isn't going to work or we're going to have to shut down or it'snot going to scale. But if you're passionate about it, you'll just keepyou paying your head against the problem until you figure out this is the workaroundit, this is how you can fix it. And we got fortunate enoughto we had a we had coast the ventures ran our seed round and wemoved the entire company from Boston to San Francisco. The scale up more higher, some of the fantastic talent here ye out kind of the the tech hubof the world, and finally finally found really good traction kind of early lastyear. We had two years ago, had our first customers on the pharmaceuticalside who are helping run faster phinople trials. But it was still, you know, everything had to be done through a warm intro. No one knewwho we were. We were just some kids doing a startup. You know, farmer companies not very sort of friendly, as much as they like to toutinnovation. So it took a while, but I'd stay in the last maybe, you know, year and a half, we've finally it's kind ofan interesting wakeup call I think we kept wondering, is this what success lookslike? As this so success looks like no one it actually happened. We'relike, Oh, we were actually failing, like all that was success, likethis is actually what it looks like.

It feels like. I wish wehad maybe tried to enter it faster and even some old ideas a littlequicker, because they really were not working as well as we thought they still. So what was that? was that like a few paying customers, orwas that, you know, some positive feedback but no one writing a checkyet? What was that difference between maybe the early perception of success versus thethe new mark, Mile Marker. Let's see, early on. Yeah,I was, you know, a lot of I think it was mostly therewas two things as one of it was the conversion to actually signing things.So, you know, early on we do a lot of pitches. We'dget generally good feedback. It was it was hard to get constructive criticism,which is really what you want, early on. So we try to pryit out of people and try to adjust based on that. But really wasjust a lot of very polite, you know things that one silent so thatyou know, deal never moved forward and also we were really having the pushpretty hard and all our outbound outreaching sales and then we started to get acombination of one. People were reaching out to us either they had found outabout US doing research on how they could run faster clinical trials and have morepatient central clinical trials, or they have been recommended to us by either anotherfarm, a company or a patient advisor or one of the clinical trial sitesare principal investigers they're working with who had worked with us, and that wasexciting to get actual inbound where, you know, at some points we didn'teven know all these people. I heard about us. They were just reachingout. I think a lot of it as well was just refining. Partof it was refinding our offerings, like what we were actually delivering, figuringout like what really worked, what was very helpful and how people wanted thatto be presented to them. And then a lot of it was just thepitch as well. We kind of refined that over and over. The deckwent from a forty slide monstrosity down to like a you know, seven oreight slide, very simple, clean. This is what we do. It'sa little oversimplified, but at least you can retain it in your memory.And then we just it just got kind of the point where, like everyconversation move pretty much all the way to the proposal stage, and the majorityof posals moved at the contracts and the ones that didn't kind of moved tolike like now just isn't the right time. But they would be interested. AndI think for a long time we're skeptical, like, you know,is it really on the back burner or is it on you know, isit not anything at all? But sure enough, sometimes a year or morelater those clients came back and ended up signing. So that was that wasexciting and I think that just that, you know, feeling of like everytime you go into a sales meeting, having the expectation that's going to gowell. That's that was a really big shift for us. So that wasreally cool. HMM, your mindset, my mind shift. So you know, I I have probably had more millennial...

...innovators on the show in the lastthirty days than ever before and and so tell us what that's like. Youknow, what what do you what do you think is different about being amillennial innovator? What, what kind of beliefs or point of view that youthink you know gives you advantages to maybe disrupting some of the status quote inthe bureaucracy that we've been living with for the last fifty, sixty years.Sure. Sure. I think the biggest thing is just kind of this thislack of set expectations of how things should be done or what things can orcan't be do. Can't be done, and you know, it certainly doeslead to a lot of failed experiments of things where, you know, industryleators would say, well, I could hold you that wasn't going to work, but it also it's a lot of things where it does work out andinstruators, we have said that wasn't going to work, but it actually doesn't. Try it the right way. I think that's you know, we've seena lot of companies tackle, you know, access to clinical trials. It's kindof like the patient basing version. The form of facing version is clinicaltrial recruitment. How do you find people who can take part in these studies? And you a lot of it. This is actually it sounds nice tothe general public, but if you're bringing the clinical trial, this is actuallyone of your biggest concerns. Eighty six percent of the noble trials fall behindschedule because they can't recruit patients fast enough. It's like the biggest problem on people'sminds. Yeah, so there's a lot of industry veterans who know thiswho try to comment tackle the problem and try to solve it, and thesolutions are very incremental. They're like they're better solutions, like every every companyI've seen that's tried to attack it has come at it with a slightly newangle that has been better than whatever the industry standard is. But you know, we've seen it's still been a very fragmented industry because no one's really createda solution that's way better than everything else, that really just works and solves it. Everything just kind of attempts to solve it a little better and itkind of fails a little less than things have in the past. And youknow, we approach this as, like I said, was originally prought project. We kind of looked at this and thought seems like really a marketplace platformthat has every clinical trial on it, like that's what patients wants, whatthey need. But then you need a ton of support as well, becausethey're really hard to understand. It always hoops you have to go through.So you need a massive support system and you know, some of that shouldbe automated for scalability, but it's healthcare, like you have to have a humantouch. So we just have to comfortable with that that you're going tohave live support people helping out along the way and a lot of things that, you know, having a system that isn't fully automated. You know,tech veterans fear away from that. It's like, Oh God, that doesn'tsound scalable and you know, focusing so...

...much on technology instead of more so, I think, focusing so much on technology and so much on the patient. We we really approach this as how can we make a better experience forpatients, whereas people from who are veteran industry veterans, they've always been workingon it from the farm perspective of how do we solve this problem for Farmaand biotechnical device companies, and so the solutions are very farma focused. Theyreally leave the patient out of it and we kind of thought that the solutionwe had in mind was pretty obvious. We kept looking around for someone toimplement it, but no one was doing it. So we just thought,I guess, guess we have to. No one else will. You know, the world kind of deserves something like this to work, and so Ithink that's goneably a long way and of course you know it. You know, to speak genuinely to what it is, there is a lot of discrimination aswell, and it's, you know, I think it's fair. You know, myself, my cofounder, we do have far less industry experience thena lot of other companies that are up there, and so there are thingsthat we are learning on the job that other people have known for decades.Yeah, we supplement that by hiring those industry veterans and by finding these fantasticadvisors and really, really smart investors who have helped fill in the gaps forus very, very rapidly. But, you know, but ultimately it's everythingfrom sales, obviously, you know, and when I go into a salesconversation I'm a twenty six year old, you know, pitching a very expensivesolution to like a top farmer company. And if it weren't for, youknow, my title is like cofounder and CEO, it would be incredibly difficultto convince these you know people. It's a big uphill battle and we alsosaw on the east coast, like back in Boston, that was also bias. Like pitching two investors. People were much much, you know, morecomfortable investing with, you know, an older individual who had seen a lotmore things, who had more experience perhaps, who had done a few companies before. And we got we got laughed out of a lot of rooms actuallyto, you know, ask for so much and to share an idea thatyou know didn't have patents behind it, things like that. You have avery traditional kind of biotech investment model. It wasn't until we very fortunately gotconnected out with investors in the bay area where there was a lot more familiarityand comfort in investing in students. You know, let me a lot ofa lot of people out here, like drop out of college to to starta company. It may not be the norm, I think you you dotend to see that older entrepreneurs are often more successful, but it's at leastmore common here and no one going Tony at that aspect of our pitch.Some people liked it as like Oh, like, you dropped out your PhDand my cofound up in a Thundergrad like... guys must really believe this isgoing to work, so it's a great story. Yeah, Hey, it'sDr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying tofigure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the newcovid economy? I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitablepivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kid. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find yourbest pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine fora three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them thesix critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit,you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sureyou can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities. Learnmore at legacy type and DNACOM backslash kit. One of the things that I've noticedthat's like a trend so far with a very small subset of millennial foundersis this incredible sense of vulnerability and transparency about your experience and it's a breathof fresh air. You know your you are not coming on the show,you know, acting like you got it all figured out and you know it. It's just the the I think there's so much to even learn from you, even though you have maybe less experience, because you're being transparent about the realitiesof what that journey is, and so it becomes, you know,such such a valuable conversation. Yeah, I agree. It's been. Oneof the Nice things is, you know, out here in the bay area,it seems like everyone is doing your company and so you get to havea lot of like great conversations and yeah, it's I learned so much more advisorsand our investors, but I think some of the best things I learnedare just from talking to other entrepreneurs who are just like you know, you'rein here doing it every day and you have a quick, light conversation,you know, over lunch or over some board games or something, and thatends up being like Oh man, I gotta go try that tomorrow, andlike it works really, really well. Right, right, yeah, sothere's so much to unpack and what you were, you know, mentioning.I want to so I heard someone say the other day. You know,like if you are younger a founder, that you need to have someone grayon your board or your advisory team. It maybe think that maybe I shouldstart letting my hair grow out, my gray hair, you know, Ishouldn't be come coloring it anymore. But you also talked about, you know, discrimination, and I think that that can come in many forms. Youknow, we've talked about race, we've talked about we you know previously aboutrace and you know, gender and age and and so just just kind oftalk about what your experience has been with ag is M with racism or withsexism just within your founder team. Sure,... you know the things. Youknow, I typically only come up against ages them, but my andmuch less so out here in the bay area. And Yeah, I thinkit's like it's going away more broadly, so hopefully feature generations of entrepreneurs willface it less. But my cofounder is an Asian American woman and you knowit's when we walk into a room, people look to me and they veryrarely direct questions towards her or in you. This is even after she is,you know, answered several questions very eloquently with much more technic aspertise thanI have. They'll still direct their questions at me and you might argue it'slike, Oh, I'm the CEO, so there's a title thing, butshe's president, like we're we really hold very, you know, slightly suchslightly different focus. But it's not like she's siled off and like only thetechnical details all right. She understands the company in many ways better than Ido and the industry and so many things. And so, you know, II think it's a little less prevalent here in the bay area, butthe definitely doesn't go away completely. We've had, you know, our owninvestors. A few of them had those kind of slightly uncomfortable or off conversationswhere, you know, my copound and are both here talking with them andfeels like I'm getting all the facetime and, you know, trying to look overto my cofounder more to direct their right right wife cite, to herfro and so you left. That's just like the subtle things, but thatthose are just the things that you notice really easily. There's just there's justso much and she doesn't getting really the recognition that that she deserves for thework and a lot of people really underestimate her when you know the people onour Trankley, people on our team and the investors that worked very closely withus, they know she's all the brains. I'm the person who goes and talksabout all the things that we're doing. So they know that the direct questionsdifferent to her. But but yeah, it's it's a real shaming. Youknow, it's something that I've heard so much from so many other founderswho are just so freaking incredible, like the smartest people who I've ever met, and they run up against this where people just are constantly doubting them andyou know, it's great to see them prove them all wrong and it's greatto see see my friends and fellow founders go off and do is incredible thingsand hopefully that will, you know, enough of proving people wrong and enoughof serving as a good role model for the next generation will make the nextgeneration of startups look a lot more. Did verse and and look a lotbetter. But yeah, it's it's it is something that you see almost everywhere. So what do you think? Men like you're so what do you thinkmen like yourself, whether they're either the counterpart in the founding team or partof the executive, the investors? What... you think the responsibility is,or what can you know, men like yourself do to not enable that into help kind of break free from some of that, like you said,for Future Generations? Yeah, you know, I mean certainly recognizing it is abig piece and being very thoughtful and kind of intentional with your actions withthat in mind. So you know, if you're if you are going togo present alongside your co founder or another team member who may be facing morediscrimination than you are, you know, maybe see if you can have themspeak first so that you know they're the ones who are driving a conversation,or see if you can, you know, set up more questions for them toanswer so they can I think when when you know people who may bedistrined upon our speaking, you obviously like they're there. Intellect and talent andexperience like that shines through. So I think just the more opportunity you givethem to actually have that chance, yeah, hopefully shifts the mindset of other peoplewho are in the room. And so anything you can do to,you know, direct questions there, have them speak first or have them speakmore, I think goes a long way and then, of course, justmaking sure to, I think, go a little extra in terms of acknowledgementand credit, because I think a lot of people end up as signing alot of the credit or success of what Clara health is doing. To me. Part of that could be because of the you know, CEO title,part of it could be just because I kind of look the part. Butthat like could not be further from the truth. Mean, it obviously isincredible team effort, but even in terms of looking at like the founding team, I mean by Cocound, is probably more responsible for the success of thecompany than I am. So so I think just making that really clear atevery turn that you have the chance to on a public show like this.There you go. Yeah, so, so switching gears a little bit.So let's talk about you know, so you've kind of described quite a bitof success that you you know, some roadblocks early on, but quite abit of success that you've experienced, let's say, for the last year anda half. How has covid impacted your business, both positively or negatively?Yeah, it's been a wild ride. So, you know, I guessI starting with, you know, negatively. Obviously, the entire team just feelsincredibly burnt out. I mean everyone now is dealing with all the stressof being cooped up. Are Our team is supersocial, like we, youknow, we're a small team, or like sixteen people are. So reallyfeels like a family and people are really bemoaning the loss of the office andbeing able to just like work together and paps them on shoulder and stick ofa conversation. And Yeah, you will do like zoom lunches and stuff,but it's not the same. So people...

...missed out a lot resting because you'resuch you you're such a tech generation, right, growing up with it fromthe very big you know, from very early on, of the very beginning. So that's that's interesting to know that. You know, this is going tosound really terrible, but did you know, like did the at thebase level, we're all human beings, no matter what trends we grew upwith, and human connection is really important, right, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, we do. You know, you can definitely tell, like weuse extremely we use slack so much, probably more than any company I've seen. I think all of our conversations are our cived somewhere in slack. YouLaw zoom calls, obviously, as everybody is adapting to. So it wasmaybe less of an adaptation for us, but people, people miss that socialand when the ton and it's the burn it. You know, it's stressfulright now for everybody, mean, whether whether you're directly impacted by by COVIDnineteen or even if you're not feeling very impacted, just to see the worldkind of feel on fire like this is extremely stressful. And then on topof that we have, you list, this massive and really really important blacklives matter movement that's going on across the US and really cross the world now, and you know that's that's just really stressful as well, like wanting tobe able to help and and feeling like you should always do more for allthese incredibly important causes. And you know, seeing the news, it's just it'soverwhelming and depressing and stressful and to kind of wake up see that,coming get into work, your kind of drained, already finished working, you'retired. Then you come back and it's just more news. So that's beendraining on the whole company, as I'm sure it is for really everyone.We have a really, really wonderful team here, so you know, oneof our one of our team members, is a has a clinical psychology trainingand background and he and another one of our team members led support groups,comes zoom support groups, which took part in. It was really wonderful asactually really so helpful. We've also shifted the work week to have half dayFridays kind of definitely until this is all over, which people have only appreciated. And then this week actually, we know it's tough for everyone to takevacation at the same time we got a lot of work to do, butwe actually kind of prepared to take a half week this week and honestly,not everyone's a bidding by it. We definitely hire for a lot of work, a holics. So I know myself and a few others have taken ahandful of half days this week but caught up on other days. But youknow, we've really tried to say I like no meetings pass one pm todayor any day this week. Please, please, please, take it offkind of pounding people if we see them on slack or see them working.That's brilliant, just to kind of catch up. Yeah, so I Ihave not heard that from anyone else.

So do you think that is isbecause you have a clinical psychologist on your team, or do you think thatit is because you know, you're, you know, kind of this millennialgeneration? Or do you think that it you know, what? Where doyou think the root of that belief system is that you're kind of putting peoplebefore profits? HMM, it might be a younger generation. You. Iwas really surprised to see us, or our lead investor of our series,a, the partner who let it. He's a younger guy too, andhe was really supportive of it. He was just like, you know,you guys, your team is mission critical. It's like the most important asset youhave, and so prioritize that first. And I think he might have beenthe one who suggested, or at the very least supported your half dayFridays, and we brought up the idea of doing a half day, youknow, so the week you just like yeah, like, if that's goingto help people feel better, you know, absolutely do it. So having asupport has been really great and I think I think a big thing too, is any part of this is is probably hiring my self, but likewe, you know, we trust our team. Our team works really hard, they do incredible work and I think you see a lot of silicon valley, even the big tech company especially, because companies, you know, theyput a lot of investment into you know, some people would say spoiling their theirteam, but it's absolutely worth it. Mean, you know people who you'reworking with, they are they are building those profits and you know,if you frankly, if you want to be maximally profit driven, which youknow for us is actually big. A lot of people look at our companyand think we're nonprofit, but actually care a lot about the business, youknow, viability of things, because that's how you scale up and make impact. If we want to help billions of people, you have to make somethingthat's like a really powerful engine that can get there right. But honestly,if you want that engine to work really well, you have to have thebest people and you have to have them loving their work and in working aswell as possible, and burning people out does not do that. Yeah,full brain pat and yeah, and for I've been so fortune you, Ihave to say out I'll admit I'm probably more so on the side of thepeople who would not be doing hating work weeks, but I've at least beensmart enough to acknowledge that when my team has an idea about that, they'reprobably right and it's worth it to just say like, fantastic, I'm allthe let's do it. So so again, I can't I can't claim these ideas. All I can claim that I agree to them. So well,you're one of the top leaders of the company and you lead by example,right. And so, even if you've got a policy like that that youinvite, inviting people to do the half days, if you aren't, youhave some people on your team that will be less inclined to take those halfa days to write. So reminded of that constantly that you are by theclinical psychologist. Right, that's funny.

So, as we wrap up here, this is just been such an incredible conversation, is there any, youknow what, advice? And you know, you may go, Oh, man, I'm this is my first time or you know, like I'm sucha young innovator, but you know, no matter what age you are,you're learning lessons and you've got wisdom to share. And so what lessons haveyou learned that you want to share with our viewers and our listeners today?Yeah, always, I think just talk to more people, that's one ofthe best things you can do. I still don't do it enough, buttalk to more people in industry, talk to more investors, talk to morecandidates. They'll just get a way better understanding of the breadth of opinions,that breadth of people, breath of companies. You know, in like doing marketresearch, you'll really deeply understand what your customers need but they're looking for. Go understand what your competitors are doing and why and how, what's workingaway isn't say we're talking to industry advisor. In talking with investors, will getto understand the very, very broad range of types of investors out there. We know Paly came close to making some mistakes of partnering with investors whowe would have a great at working with. And you know, once you havean investor like that, you're married to them. There they are withyou for the ride and frank we just got really lucky a lot of timesthat certain things that would have been bad happened to just not work out,and you know, that gave us time to find people who are really,really well aligned with our mission, in our team and our way of thinkingand and also getting, you know, better better terms and everything. Andsame with your team. You know, when you're hiring people, you knowsomeone fantastic comes along, you don't want to miss out on people. Butif you've, if you already talked to, you know, several dozen people withthat type of job description, with that role, then you'll have amuch better understanding when somebody special comes along. Do you really want to make sureyou don't miss to have on your team and ask questions and don't afraidto be be afraid to look them. It's I think that's just general lifeadvice and I think everyone finds it out sooner or later and play a lotof people listening. I've already learned that, but that's you know, you've beentalking to customers. I'll ask questions that show some of my lack ofa bio background. That's, you know, a little embarrassing, though always,but I asked and I you know, once you know, you know itfor the future. Right, right, that goes in a probably a longway. Absolutely none. We all are in this journey where we're learningalong the way, and so there are I always say there's you know,it's at Cliche, but there's no dumb question and you know, just tobe real, because at the end of the day we're all people. So, you know, taking the masks off, not literally in this pandemic you knoware, but taking the masks off right yeah, goes a long waywith building trust and building credibility, I think. Well, thank you somuch for sharing your wisdom today with our...

...listeners. I really appreciate your time. Yeah, thank you so much for having me and you know, we'rereally open here is if anybody has any extra questions, they can follow meon twitter. It's just ha an airmberger. All Clair of health and preach out. We're always happy to share our thoughts in the industry or startups orpeople want to know about that's great. I'm sure people will have questions andwant to get ahold of you. Thank you. Yeah, thank you somuch for having on the show, for righting us. Thank you so muchfor listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation tomarket and I value your time and your attention. To save time and getthe latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on yourfavorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listeningand I appreciate everyone who's been sharing the show with friends and colleagues. SeeYou on the next episode of Coiq.

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