Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 1 year ago

How one millennial founder is building his healthcare startup w/ Evan Ehrenberg


Launching a successful startup is hard. It’s even harder when there’s a global pandemic affecting every aspect of the market.

Market shakeups aren’t new, but when you’re new to the market, your ideas could be the shakeup that’s needed!

Fresh eyes, fresh ideas, fresh approaches can be a breath of fresh air in a stalled market. And Evan Ehrenberg and his company threw open the window with their millennial mindsets.

In this episode, come hear how Evan and his team at Clara Health used a unique mix of traditional and unorthodox approaches to building a successful startup out of a college project.

Evan’s candor, transparency, and vulnerability, quickly pull our listeners in as he recounts the struggles and triumphs, and unique approaches, millennial companies face during COVID-19.  

Here are the show highlights:

  • The path from idea, to a minimum viable product, to scalable product (3:58)
  • What success can look for a startup (8:34)
  • What it’s like to be a millennial innovator (11:22)
  • How transparency and vulnerability in conversations can spark ideas (17:36)
  • Combatting discrimination and ageism in the company and when pitching (18:54)
  • Steps to take that can help battle burnout and increase productivity (24:48)
  • Using conversations to help build stronger trust and credibility (31:48)

Guest Bio

Evan Ehrenberg is Co-founder and CEO of Clara Health, a company that exists to help patients obtain better access to breakthrough clinical trials.

Before founding Clara Health, Evan managed AI research at MIT, Pal, and Palantir.

He is a USERN (Universal Scientific Education and Research Network) Ambassador and a recipient of the Forbes 30 under 30 award.

Having received his Bachelor’s in Cognitive Science from UC Berkeley at the age of 16, Evan went on to become the youngest Ph.D. candidate at MIT.

If you’d like to reach out to Evan, or simply want more information about Clara Health, you can follow him on Twitter at @EvanEhrenberg or @ClaraHealth, on LinkedIn at Evan Ehrenberg or reach out on their website at

Welcome to Coiq, where you learn howhealth innovators maximize their success. I'm your host, Dr Roxy,founder of legacy, DNA and International Beth selling author ofhow health innovators maximize market success through candid conversationswith health, innovators, earlia doctors and influencers you'll learn how tobring your innovation, some idea to start up to market domination, and now,let's jump into the latest episode of Coiq. Welcome back to the show Cuyqlisteners on today's episode. We Have Evan Arenberg with us, who is thecofounder and CEO Clara. Welcome to the show Evan thank Youso, much fract merocksy, it's flutter to be here so tell our audience a little bit aboutyour background and what you've been innovating these days. Sure thing. So my personal background is, if itinteresting, I ended up going to to college Al Bell Very Young. I SAR when I was eleven, went to Youfirsta en again I started college. When I was elevenyears old, I went to UC Berkeley for a bachelor's degree in cognit science andcompetison modeling and then went over to mit for my PhD in competitional RoScience. When I was sixteen and towards the very end of my PhD when I wasgetting ready to defend my thesis, I joined a close friend of mine who wasstarting a company that would turn into Clara Health and then actually end updropping out of my PhD just a few months before defending to focus on itfull time so that, oh, my gosh, I didn't know that yeah little interesting meand you gotbit by the Entrepreneurial Bug. Oh absolutely it was. It was the most SOMF,the most fun work over done and incredibly impactful. So it was, you know it was. It was so it was a heavy decision, certainly,but it was ultimately an easy one just because we were very fortunate to bereally heavily impacting people's lives, saving lives in some cases and tocompare you know doing that versus getting of PhD, which is just a pieceof paper, really kind of became clear which, which was the rightdecision so so yeah a D N, and it's you know some. So what Cleara health doesis we're sort of this matching platform that is trying tohelp make it much easier to access to mopal trials. So if you look at all ofthe inequities and health care clinical triwls ar one of the ones where you seethe most significant inequity and also police diversity, so they are justincredibly difficult to access to like even to learn about them to find whichones are available and then to actually get involved and participate. There isjust really really high bars of health...

...literacy. It really matters where you are likeyou know. Academic institutions that are in city centers are running morequiable trials. They're going to be more ready to talk with you about them, oftentimes, you know. If your Physitianisn't the person writing a popl trial, they often don't even know about it. Soit's really hard to get help to learn about them, and then you have to oftentake time off of work, there's just very inflexible people to work with,and so we set out to do the platform to just take all these wonderful consumerexperiences that we're seeing with you know, arbnb for proventing. You knowpeople's places to ouber and live forgetting rides and try to apply asmuch of the things that work there into pinaple trials. Of course, with all therelations and everything there's something is that don't always carryover but trying to make them a lot easier to take part in so that we'rereally democratizing that access, so everybody can get involved, haveReallat, really easy experience and kind of started off just as a projectto see what we could do that we're fortunate enough to have itsort of turninto into a business, and you know, through ANA investment,actually scaled that up into something. That's been, you know so far, verysuccessful that we're really proud of what a great story. So I have to say Ithink, at eleven I was still playing with barbies. Don't get me wrong? I was still playingwith legos and things toag AI'm gonna just do some cognitive science on theside over here. That's awesome so take us through. You know from thetime that you determined that this was going to be in a business venture andnot a hobby or a competition or prod marside project to you know some of themilestone accomplishments over the last few years. Let's do that sure, so you know certainly w when we firststarted taking even just like cant like friends and family type investment. That was, you know, I think even the decision togo out and try to do. That was already a pretty big shift of like okay. Youknow this. This seems like Ta could really work, but even then you know welooked at it as this could work, but you know, startupsare extraordinarily fickle and odds are really against us, but you know: There's people who believe inus who want us to work on this. Well, definitely give it our bet shot and wedidn't really have any. We had high hopes, but our expectationswere franly. Quite well. We, you know Wer list. We were really sick about itand thought you know. Hopefully we learn some things. Maybe we can influence some industryleaders to think in a different way from conversations with them, but you know it probably wasn't goingto go very far, just because it's really hard to start a business, and I had some experience working on astartup with my my PhD thesist advisor, but you know even that was very slowand everything e. So so that was knd f.

When we got things started N W, we gotsome initial little bit of capital from endsivefamily, and then we got some capital from some of the kind of like collegeinvestors, Tas Dormroom Fund and Rough drapp ventures that invest smallsmallish check sizes into student bed companies. So companies run by peoplewho are still in their graduate or undergraduate programs which bothmyself might Coh underwar at the time, and so with that, I think all andtogether we had maybe a hundred thousand dollars. So we hired you knowhired some team members started working on some NBPS. Ultimately, posher just put all mourtime into business development and market research, because the NBPS thatwe developed were scrapched very quickly, wrpractically useless. Sodefinitely a lot of learning about what not to spend money on, but we're fortunate enough throughFISTOM advisors. We got connected to some VC firms in the bay area and thenthose VC firms canted us with ovelly fantastic angel investors who had suchwonderful advice and quickly the kind of pulled together.You know what would be like sort of our preceede round that had more mind to like substantial, likeactually higher on team and really, you know, scrap the MVP and make somethingthat was more of a product, not not minimum viable yeah, and you know the the struggle was on.It was always a really tough battle, as is mean anything in healthcare, so manybarris are came up against so many times that we thought you know thisisn't going to work or we're going to have to shut down or it's not going toscale. But if you're passionate about ithey'll just keep. You know, Baing your head against the problem until youfigure out o this is the work around or this is how you think fiks it and we at fortunate enough to we had we had coast. Adventures ran ourseed round and we moved the entire company from Boston to San Franciscothe scale up more higher, some of the fantastic tawn here, Beyeahan kind ofPotech, Ou, now hup of the world and finally, finally found really goodtraction kind of early last year. We had we two years ago had our firstcustomers in the pharmaceutical side who were helping run faster than apletrials, but it was still you know. Everythinghad to be done through a warman show. No one knew who we were. We were justsome kids doing a startup. You know Farmar companies, not very R friendlyas much as they like t to Talnt tevation, so it took a while, but I'd say in thelast. Maybe you know a year and a half we've finally twas kind of ainteresting wake of call. I think we kept wondering is this. What successlooks like is this? What success looks like? No one actually happened, we'relike Oh, we were actually failing like alltimetot was success like this isactually what it looks like. I feels... I wish we had maybe tried tointerate faster, even hem, on Simol ideas, a little quicker because theyreally were not working as well as we thought t they shol. So what was that?was that, like a few payin customers, or was that you know some positivefeedback, but no one writing a check. Yet what was that difference betweenmaybe the early perception of success versus the the new Marmil Marker? Let's see early on yeah, I was you knowa lot of. I think it was itwas. Mostly. There was two thing I uess one of itwas the conversion to actually signing things. So you know early on. We do a lot of pitches. We' getgenerally good feedback. It was. It was hard to get constructive criticism,which is really what you want early on. So we try to try it out of people andtry to adjust based on that, but really was just a lot of very polite. You know thing is that won Silenc so that youknow heall never move forward and also we were really having to push prettyhard and all of our outbound outreaching sales. And then we started to get a combination of one people werereaching up to us either they had found out about US doing research on how theycould run faster, penible trials and have more patient centric penipaltrials, or they have been recommended to us by either another Farma companyor a patient adviser, or one of the chrimical trial sides or principal andbeskars theyre working with who had worked with us, and that was exciting to get at actualinbound. Where you know at some points we dodn't even know. Oese people hadheard about us, they were just reaching out. I think a lot of it as well was justrefining part of it was ar finding our offerings like what we were actuallydelivering figuring out like what really worked, what was very helpfuland how people wanted Tus to be presented to them, and then a lot of itwas just the pitch as well. You, we kind of refined that over and over thedeck, went from a forty slide monstrosity down to, like a you, know,seven or eight slide and very simple clean. This is what we do. It's alittle over simplified, but at least you can retain it in your having memory and then we just it just got kind ofthe point where, like every conversation, move pretty much all theway to the proposal stage and the majority of propolsals moved it thecontracts and the ones that didn't kind of moved to like like now just isn'tthe right time, but they would be interested in. I think, for a long timewe're skeptical, like you know, is it really on the back burner or is it onyou know? Is it not anything at all but sure enough, sometimes a year or morelater, those clients came back and ended upsiting, so that was that wasexciting, and I think that just that you know feeling of likeevery time you go into a sales meeting having the expetation that's going togo. Well, that's that was a really big shift for us, so that was really cool.HMM, your mindset myet shift, so you know I I have probably had more millennialinnovators on the show in the last...

...thirty days than ever before, and andso tell us what that's like you know, whatdo you, what do you think is different about being a millennial innovator.What what kind of beliefs or point of view that you think you know gives youadvantages to maybe disrupting some of the status quote in the bureaucracythat we've been living with for the last fifty sixty years. Sure sure Ithink the biggest thing is just kind of this. This lack of set expectations of how things shouldbe done, or what things can or can't be. Do can't can't be done, and you know it certainly does lead toa lot of failed experiments of things where you know, industry leaders wouldsay well, I could hold you that wasn't going to work, but it also it's a lotof things where it does work out and initialators would have said thatwasn't going to work, but it actually dotry it in the right way. I think that's you know, we've seen a lot of companies tackle.You know. Access to cinapal trials is kind of like the patient, basingversion the the farm of facing version is penical child ruitment. How do youfind people who can take part in these studies? And you know a lot of this- is actuallyit sounds nice to the general public, but if you're brunning with penacaltrial, this is actually one of your biggest concerns. Eighty six percent ofthe novill trials fall behind schedule because they can't recruit patientsfast enough. It's like the biggest problem on people's minds, yeah. Sothere's a lot of industry veterans who know this, who try to comment, tacklethe problem and try to solve it, and the solutions are very incrementaltheyre, like they're, better solutions like ever every company I've seen astrying to attack it, has come at it with a slightly new angle that has beenbetter than whatever the industry standard is. But you know we've seen it's still been avery fragmentod industry, because no one's really created a solution. That'sway better than everything else that really just works and solves it.Everything just kind of attempts to solve it a little better and it kind offails a little less. An than things happened. The past and you K O. We approach this as, like, I said, was originally Po Project.We kind of looked at this and thought w seems like really a marketplaceplatform that has every tenical trial on it like that's what patients wants,what they need, but then you need a ton of Ufcourt as well, because they'rereally hard to understand it, always hoops you have to go through. So youneed a massive support system and you know some of that should be automatedfor scale ability. But it's healthcare like you, have to have a human touch,so we just have comfortable with the bat that you're going to have know,live support people Yo, helping out along the way and a lot of things that you know having a system that isn't fullyaunomated. You Know Tech Veterans, fear away from that. It's like, Oh God, thatdoesn't sound scalable and you know...

...focusing so much on technology. Insteadof more so, I think, focusing so much of thychnologe and so much on thepatient. We Aly approach this as how can we make a better experience forpatients, whereas people from who are better in O K, ow industry, Betteransthey've always been working on it from the farm perspective of how do we sawthis problem for Farma and biotechnomedical devise companies, andso the solutions are very fun a focused. They really leave the patient out of itand we kind of thought that the solution we had in mind was prettyobvious. We kept looking around for someone to implement it, but no one was doing it, so we just thought, guess: Yues we have to no one else:Willik Youkow the world kindof deserve something like this to work. So I think that's gone a vayy long wayand of course you know it. You know to speak genuinely. So what itis. There is a lot of discrimination aswell and it's you know. I think it's fair. You Know Myself, my cofounder,you know we do have far less intosh experience than a lot of othercompanies that are out there, and so there are things that we are learningon the job that other people have known for decades and yea. We supplement thatY by hiring those industry veterans and by finding these fantastic advisers andreally really smart investors who have helped Feelin the gaps for us very veryrapidly, but you know, but ultimately it's everything from sales. Obviously youknow, and not when I go into a sales conversation, I'm a twenty six year old.You know pitching a very expensive solution to like a top Farma Company and if it weren't, for you know mytitle as like Cofoneran CEO, it would be incredibly difficult to to convinceEsyin, O Peopas a big UPFIL battle, and we also saw on the east coast like backin Boston that was also biased, like pitching toinvestors. People were much much more comfortable. Investing with you K, w anolder individual who had seen a lot more things have had more experience.Perhaps who had done a few companies before and we got, we got laughed out of a lotof rooms actually to you know, ask for so much and to share an idea that you knowdidn't have patents behind it. Things like that you have a very traditionalkind of biotech investment model. It wasn't until we very fortunately gotconnected out with investors in the bay area, where there was a lot morefamiliarity and comfort in investing in students. You know I meana lot of a lot of people out here, like drop out of college to start a company. It may not be the norm. I think you dotend to see that old rangre reur is are often more successful, but it's atleast more common here and no one boing tonight a that aspect ofour pitch a some people liked it is like. Oh, like you drop at our PhD andmy co Id out that a fronder grab like... guys. Much really believe this isgoing to work. So Ithi story, yeah, hey it's Dr Roxsy. Here with a quick breakfrom the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need tomake to survive and thrive in the new covid economy? I want every healthinnovator to find their most viable and profitable timit strategy, which is whyI created the covid proof, your business to the kid. The PIPOCAN is astep by step pramework that helps you find your best tivid strategy. It walksyou through six categories. You need to examine for a three hundred and sixtydegree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses, asyou make your way through this comprehensive kid, you'll be armed withthe tools, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can piv it with speedwithout missing out on critical details and opportunities, learn more at legacy.Tythan DNACOM, Backla Kit, one of the things that I've noticed. It's like atrend so far with a very small subset of millennial founders. Is thisincredible sense of vulnerability and transparency about your experience andit's a breath of fresh air. You know your you are not coming on the show.You know acting like you got it all figured out, and you know you it's justthe the I think there's so much to even learn from you, even though you havemaybe less experienced because you're being transparent about the realitiesof what that journey is a and so it becomes. You know such such a valuableconversation yeah. Certainly I agree. It's been oneof the Nice things is, you know out here in the bay area, it seems, likeeveryone is doing a company, and so you get to have a lot of really greatconversations, and you know II learned so much more advisors and our investors,but I think some of the best things I learn are distrop talking to otherentrepreneurs who are just like you know, they're in here doing it everyday, and you have a quick light conversation you kno over lunch or oversome board games or something, and that ends up being like Oh man, I gotta go.Try that tomorrow and like it works really really well right, right, Eah, so there's so much to unpack and whatyou were you know mentioning. I want Ted, so I heard someone say the other dayyou know like. If you were younger a founder, that you need to have someonegray on your board or your advisory team. It mayme think that maybe Ishould start letting my hair grow out my grey hair. You know I shouldn't beco, coloring it anymore, but you also talked about you knowdiscrimination and I think that that can come in many forms. You know, we'vetalked about race, we've talked about we you know previously about race, andyou know gender and age, and so just just kind of talk about what yourexperience has been with agism with racism or with sexism just within yourfounder team.

Sure. So you know the things you know.I typically only come up against Agesm, but my and much less so out here in the bayarea and yeah. I think it's Lin that's going away more broadly so oerllyfeature generations of Entrenoeuras Wi base. It bless, but my cofounder is anAsian American woman and Yoa it's when we walk into a room. People look to me and they very rarelydirect questions towards her or in Ethis is even after Sheis. You knowanswered several questions very eloquently with much more tychofQuespertese than I have they'll still direct their questions at me, and you might argue it's like. Oh I'm,the CEO, so there's a title thing but she's president, like we're, we reallyhold very you know sliwly ssolly different focus, but it's not likeshe's silent off in, like only the technical details rig t. Sheunderstands the company in many ways better than I do, and the industry and so many things,and so you know I I think it's a little less prevalenthere in the bay area, but it definitely doesn't go away completely. We've had you know our own investors, afew of them e've had those kind of slightly uncomfortable or offconversations where you know my Copan and I are both here- are talking withthem and you know feels like I'm getting all the facetime and you knowtry to look over to my cofounder more to Tryi, to direct there right right,witsite to her foraor and O Youo. That's just like the subtlethings, but those are just the things that younotice really easily. There's just there's just so much andshe doesn't get nely the recognition that that she deserves for the work. And you know I a lot of people reallyunderestimate her. When you, the people, ind, Aur, trankly people in our teamand the investors that work very closely with us, they know she's allthe brains and the person he goes and talks about all the things that we'redoing so. They know that Thee Qestonster to her, but but yeah, it's a real shameing. Youknow it's something that I've heard so much from so many other founders, whoare just so freaking incredible like the smartest people who I've ever metand they run up against thus where people just are constantly doubtingthem, and you know it's great to see them,prove them all wrong. And it's great to see see my friends, a fellow foundersgo off and do s incredible things, and hopefully that will you know enough ofproving people wrong and enough of observing as a good role model for thenext generation will make the next generation of startups Loikh a lot morediverse and and look look a lot better, but yeah it's. It is something that you see almosteverywhere. So what do you think men like your? So what do you think menlike yourself, whether they're, either...

...the counterpart and the founding teamor part of the executive, the investors? What do you think the theresponsibility is? Or what can you know? Men, like yourself,do to not enable that and to help kind of break free from some of that, likeyou said for future generations yeah, you know I mean certainly recognizingit is a big piece and being very thoughtful and kind of intentional with youractions with that in mind. So you know if you're, if you are going to gopresent alongside your cofounder, another team member who may be facingmore discrimination than you are, you know, maybe see if you can have them speakfirst, so that you know they are the ones who are driving a conversation or see. If you can, you know set up moreflections for them to answer so they can. You K, O, I think when, when Yo people may be desterinetupon our speaking, yea, obviously like ther, their intellectom talent andexperience like that shines through, and so I think, just the moreopportunity you give them to actually have that chance. Yeah, hopefullyshifts the mindset of other people who are in the room and so anlything youcan do to you know direct questions. There have them speak first or havingto speak more. I think goes a long way and then, of course, just making sureto, I think, go a little extra in terms ofacknowledgment and and credit, because I think a lot of people end upassigning a lot of the creditor success of what Clara Health is doing to me. Part of that could be because of theyou know, CEO title part of it could be just because I kind of look the part,but that, like could not be further from the truth, mean yea. Obviously,this incredible team effort, but even in terms of looking at like thefounding team I mean by Coot, is probably more responsible for thesuccess of the company than I am so so I think just making that reallyclear at every turn that you have the chance to on a public show like this.There you go yeah, so so switching gears a littlebit. So, let's talk about you know so you've kind of described quite a bit ofsuccess that you, you know some roadblocks early on, but quite a bit ofsuccess that you've experienced. Let's say for the last year and a half. How has covid impacted your businessboth positively or negatively? Yeah? It's been a wild ride, so you know I guess I g starting with youknow negatively. Obviously the entire team just feels infremily burnt dout, Imean everyone now is dealing with all the stress of being cooped up. Ourteam is super social, like we, you know we're a small team like sixteen peopleare so really feels like a family and people are really demoaning. The lossof the office being able to just like work together and tap them on ashoulder and stick up a conversation and yeah o well do like some lunchesand stuff, but it's not the same.

So people miss tout a lot becauseyou're such you've, such a tech generation right growing up with itfrom the very big you know from very early on of the very beginning. Sothat's that's interesting to know that you know this is going to sound, really terrible,but you know like at the at the base level where all human beings, no matterwhat trends we grew up with and human connection is really important right,absolutely yeah yeah. We do you know you can definitely tell like we useextreme, we use spack so much fine more than any company I've seen. I think allof conversations are on crime somewhere in sack. You know lot Os zoon calls, obviously,as everybody is adapting to so it was maybe less of an adaptation for us, but people, people miss that social ammentHof time and just the Burnet. You know it'sstressful right now, for everybody mean whether whether you're directlyimpacted by by COVID nineteen or even, if you're, not feeling very impactiveTus to see the world kind of feel on fire like this is extremely stressful and then y e top of that we have you knowi thismass ive really really important black lives matter movement! That's going onacross the US and really across the world. Now- and you know- that's that'sjust really stressus wel like wanting to be able to help and and feeling likeyou should always do more for all these incredibly important causes- and you know seeing the news- it's justit's overwhelming and depressing andstressful, and to kind of wake up, see that you know the Timyou get into work.You're kind of drained already finished, working, you're, tired, an you comeback and it's just theres more news, so that's been draining on the wholecompany, as I'm sure it is for really everyone. We have a really really wonderful teamhere. So you know one of our one of our team. ATRACES A has a chenicalpsychology, you know training and background, and he and another one ofour team members LEDs pork groups. It comes Zom, Soom support croups, which Itook part N. I it was really wonderful, is actually really so helpful. We've also shifted the the work week tohave halfday Fridays kind of definitely until this is all over whichpeople have oily appreciated, and then this week, actually we ou know it'stough for everyone to take vacation. At the same time, we got a lot of work todo, but we actually ki prepared to take a half week. This weekand honestly, noteveryone's abiding by it. We definitely hire for a lot of workaholics. So Iknow myself and a few others have taken a handful of half days this week, butcaugt up on other days, but Y we've really tried to say Li Gut no meetingspast one pm today or any day this week. Please please, please take it off kindof hounding people if we see them on Slak or see them working, that'sBreallan just to kind of catch up yeah. So...

I I have not heard that from anyoneelse. So do you think that it is because youhave a clinical psychologist on your team, or do you think that it isbecause you know your you know kind of this millennialgeneration? Or do you think that it you know? Where do you think the rout ofthat belief system is that you're kind of putting people beforeprofits? HMM, it might be a younger generation y? U,I was really surprised to see sour lead investor of our SERIESA, the partnerwho led it he's a younger guy too, and he was really supportant above it hewas just like you know you guys. Your team is mission, critit Al. It's likethe most important ass that you have and so prioritize that first and Ithink he might have been the one whowho suggested or at the very re supportedyou know, Halfday Fridays, and when we brought up the idea of doing a half day,you know the week Heu, just like yeah like. If that's going to help peoplefeel better, you know absolutely do it so having a support has been reallygreat and I think I think a big thing too isanyou. Part of this is, is probably a Highin Mind Sep, but like yea, we trustour team. Our team works really hard. They do incredible work and I think you see a lot of silicon valley.Even the Big Tech Company, especially bite companies. You know they put a lotof investment into you know some people oul say spoiling, I their team, but it's absolutely worth it mean you owpeople who you're working with they are. They are building those propits and you know if you frankly, if you want tobe maximamly propit driven, which you know for us, is actually a big M lot ofpeople, look at our company and think we're nonprofit, but actually care a lot about the business.You know biability of things, because that's how you scale up and make impactif we want to help billions of people, you have to make something: that's likea really powerful engine that can get there right. But but honestly, if you want thatengine to work fuly well, you have to have the best people and you have tohave them loving their work and working as well as possible and burning peopleout does not do that. Yeah full bring Paan Yeah and for I've been sofortunate Yo. I have to say out I'll admit, I'm probably more so on the sideof the people who would not be doing day work weeks, but I've at least beenspart enough to acknowledge that when my team has an idea about that, they're,probably right and it's worth it to just say like fantastic, I'm all, thenlet's do it so so again, I can't. I can't claimthese ideas all I can clain that I green to them, so one of the top leaders of the company-and you lead by example, right and so even if you've got a policy like thatthat you invite inviting people to do the half days. If you aren't, you havesome people on your team that will be less inclined to take those half a daysto right, reminded ofbhot, constantly t...

...your by the clinical psychologist right, that's funny! So as we wrap up here,this has just been such an incredible conversation. Is there any? You knowwhat advice and you know you may go. Oh Man, I'm!This is my first time or you know like I'm such a young innovator, but youknow no matter what age you are. You're, learning lessons and you've got wisdomto share, and so what lessons have you learned that you want to share with ourviewers and our listeners today? Yeah, always I an just talk to more people. That's one of the best things you can do. Istill don't do it enough, but talk to more people in industry. Talk to moreinvestors, talk to more candidates, they'll, just get away betterunderstanding of the breadth of opinion. Is thatbreath of people breath of companies. You know in like doing market research.You'll really deeply understand what your customers need, but they'relooking for go understand what your competitors are doing and why and howwhat's working a what Isnand same with talking me, indistry advisor, is intalking with investors will get to understand the very, very broad rangeof tyme, so investors out there we, you know Pon came close to making some somemistakes of partning with investors who we would have regreated working with,and you know once you have an investor like that: you're married to them therethere with you for the ride and Frankwy just got really lucky a lotof times that certain things that would have been bad happen to just not workout, and you know then give Ov us time to find you know people who are reallyreally well aligned with our mission in our team and our way of thinking and and also getting you know better,better terms and everything and sang with your team. You know whenyou're hiring people, you know someone fantasic comes along, you don't want toMiss Oung people, but if you've, if you already talked to you, know severaldozen people with that type of job description with that role, then you'llhave a much better understanding you. When somebody special comes along. Youreally want to make sure you don't miss to have on your team and ask questionsand, don't afraid, be a be afreind to look dom it's. I think. That's justgeneral life advice and I think everyone finds it out sooner or laterAndquie a lot of people listening, I've already wearin that, but that's you know even talking Hocustomers I'll, ask questions that show some of my lack of a bio background.That's o a little embarrassing Bot, always boaskd, and I you know once youknow you know it for the future right man that goes in a probably long way.Absolutely none! We all are in this journey, were we're learning along theway, and so there always say: There's youknow Cliche, but there's no dumb question and you know just to be realbecause at the end of the day, where all people, so you know taking themasks off not literally in this pandemic, you know ie, but taking themasks off right. Yeah goes along way with building trustand building credibility. I think well,...

...thank you so much for sharing yourwisdom today with our listeners. I really appreciate your timge. No thank you so much for havving me andyou Kno, we're really open here is. If anybody has any extra questions, theycan follow me on the butter. It's just Hevan, Errenberg or pall, Clara Healthand reach out we're always happy to share our thoughts in the industry orstartups or anthink. People want to know about that's great, I'm surepeople will have questions and whent to get a hold of you. Thank you yeah. Thank you so muchhrapping on the showfor ruing Tis. Thank you so much for listening. I knowyou're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market, and Ivowue your time and your attention to save kind and get the latest episodeson your mobile device automatically subscribe to the show on your favoritepodcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listeningand I appreciate everyone. WHO's been sharing. The show with friends andcolleagues see you on the next episode of coiq.

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