Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 1 year ago

How one innovator goes B2C to circumvent the payer reimbursement system w/ Jo Bhakdi


It’s taken a global pandemic to jumpstart the telehealth industry and showcase the value, convenience, and importance of bringing strong, viable, and scalable technology solutions to the market. And now that the spotlight’s been cast, there’s no going backwards.

One might not think of disease detection and quantitative science as services that can be deployed via telehealth and a customer/member focused concierge solution, but Jo Bhakdi of Quantgene would argue that with you.

His company built a product around advanced cancer detection using deep genomics and AI technologies and delivers that product in a package that bypasses the traditional healthcare payer system and offers a more affordable solution directly to the customer. And, when COVID-19 hit, Jo’s team was able to envision how a COVID-based solution could be offered to its members in a seamless pivot.

In this episode, come hear Jo Bhakdi’s thoughts on the future of telehealth and concierge medicine, how to approach a successful market pivot, and the importance for health innovators to understand the “investor’s triangle” when bringing healthcare innovations to market. 

Here are the show highlights:

  • 5 crucial ingredients you must have to develop effective and disruptive healthcare technology (17:33) 
  • This causes more healthcare innovations to die than anything else… (18:39) 
  • The case for healthcare innovators to be ruthlessly selfish (20:05) 
  • Why shrinking your addressable market can prevent your healthcare innovation from a premature death (25:24) 
  • The “Investor’s Triangle” method for pitching investors that skyrockets your chances of getting investments (29:46) 
  • Here’s how you can easily gain the upper hand when talking to potential investors (33:20) 
  • Why you should celebrate the chaos of the current crisis (49:40) 

I've spoken with dozens of health innovators, and nearly everyone is trying to figure out their best pivot strategy. But they don't know what to change, how to pivot, or if their new pivot strategy is the right move.

So I went into overdrive putting together a clear, actionable 5-step worksheet that will help you quickly define your most viable and profitable pivot path through the COVID crisis. And I’m giving it to you for FREE — no strings attached at

Guest Bio

Jo Bhakdi is the founder and CEO of Quantgene. Launched in 2015, Quantgene works on the theory that most diseases can be detected far earlier by employing quantitative science and a new level of precision into medical practice. 

Jo holds a Masters in Economics and Psychology from Tubingen University, one of Germany’s leading academic institutions, with a focus on financial theory and statistics. Prior to Quantgene, Jo began his career at WPP and Omnicom, where he held Strategy and Executive Director positions.

‍If you’d like to learn more about Quantgene and the solutions Jo and his team have developed, you can reach out to him on Twitter at @jobhakdi, email at, or on and

Welcome to Coiq, where you learnhow health innovators maximize their success. I'm your host, Dr Roxy, founderof Legacy DNA and international bestselling author of how health innovators maximize market success.Through handed conversations with health innovators, earlier, doctors and influencers, you'll learn howto bring your innovation from idea to start ups to market domination. Andnow let's jump into the latest episode of Coiq. Welcome back to the OIQlisteners. On today's episode I had Joe Boxy with me. He is theCEO and founder of quanting. Welcome to the show, Joe. Thanks forhaving need of their oxy. It's a pleasure. Thank you. So forour listeners, let's get started by having you tell them a little bit aboutyour background and what you do. So yeah, I found in Quantine intwo thousand and fifteen and we are premium preventive care company with a hot biotakeangle. So what we do is we bring advanced, many to technologies toour members. It's a you know, says Paya System, based on ourobservation for a very long time that you have all these amazing manical advancements thatdon't become to patients or that comes to patients final late, like a decay, to a longer delayed after they have been invented in after this is sufficientclinical evidence, in our opinion, that they can truly move the needle.Yeah, no, Pun intended. And the main obstacle is not clinical evidenceto get these technolities to you, is the pay our system, that insurance, and maybe here and other people say well, yeah, it works,it might safe people, that might protect you better. We need more evidencethat it actually also not just save life, saves lives, but saves money,and we always thought that's wrong for many reasons. And basically combined andconciertion premium care element with Tele Medicine, which is very you know what weneed nowadays. Yeah, but also give access to these advanced technologies that arealready clinically proven to an extent that is overweledly clear and our opinion and ourphysicians opinion that they can help people, and then get rid of the payour issue by saying well, you can pay yourself and be try to makeit as a full but as possible. Obviously. Okay, very interesting.So let's say that, like many of my guests lately, we were havingkind of two conversations. One is kind of like who you were and whatyou were doing prior to Covid, and then kind of who you are andwhat you're going to do going forward. So imagine we were talking in February. You know, what was your market strategy then and where were you inthe innovation process? Yeah, we have this great or strategy time that Ihow that we bring preventive care and it is tele medicine based. That waspre COVID, right. So you take your credit card, you bias thePacific protection package around a certain disease. We start with cancer. So inFebruary we are all about cancer protection and providing advanced cancer detection technologies, specificallydeep genomics and a I with a blood test, but also going beyond that, plus advice around cancer, around you a risk exposure and profiling cancer.That was what who we were in February. We basically said, well, cancers, it tremendous problem, by the way, much bigger than cod withbut getting over ruled a little bit right now. Another shell. That's anotherjob. So what we build is the first product that basically tells you,if you want to be protected, have maxim protection against bad outcomes in cancer, especially as a prevative measure when you are not yet diagnosed. You knowthen you want to have the best possible protection and care, especially prevative andearly detection, and we just offer that in one package. You become amember, you get expert physician advice, expert genetic counseling, but also advancedtechnologies that you know are normally not yet available. And then is what Quanchinwas back then. And since then a lot of things happen. A lotof things value dated. The tele medicine approach, for example. Now it'sall over the place and we were like first with that in this cancer space. And of course now we adding covid testing. That's kind of a nobrainer. So and in covid testing our basic premise of quantin. Then thereare madical technologies that are available but get to you too late. Is Truewith covid on steroids right so there might be available now, but you haveto wait another six months before you can actually get tested right in. Andyou know, good luck trying to get tested, like if you don't say, you know, I don't have symptoms, but I just don't trust the wholesituation. Let's get tested with a...

PC artest that tells me if Icurrently have it and with an editor antibody test that tells me if I hadit and might have immunity. I mean, good luck, you'll go to CEV'stry to get it or call your doctor. And so we saw thatneed and we are now deploying for me next week. A solution then allows, you know, our members to just get tested. They just, youknow, pay a certain price. Not going to be too crazy. We'restill figuring the details. Our we sent a nurse to your home and doa nasal as well and a finger pre for blood draw and we test youactually comprehensively, both on the PCR current are a expression side in the blood, and on antibodies. So you know if you had it and you knowif you have it. And I think then reflace very much our positioning thatyou know there this stuff is available. In theory, these tests exist,they're validated, but you can't get them and your physician can't get them becausesome pay us as well. I don't know. We want to pay ourleaps say like yeah, we have them and you know, no one knowswhen to all of them and how to pay them, and sometimes they governmentmoves in a brooks a bunch of them because they want to give them tospecific hospital, as you know, and the patient should not be exposed toall these, you know, problems in the healthcare system. The page shouldbe able to say, you know what, I pay three hundred bucks, senteither nurse and test me for everything and I get peace of mind andyour specialists take care of me. That's the whole idea. So the onething that comes to mind when I hear you describing this is concier medicine,where you have a subset of the consumer population who maybe have the resources toinvest in these types of preventive and proactive measures and out of pocket, asopposed to having it go through their health system, because they don't want tobe limited like you're describing. You know, I don't want to be limited.I don't want my care and my wellbeing to be limited by what thepayer can pay. I want to be able to have access to the carethat I want or that I mean absolutely, and that's that's exactly what we areon about. We always describe ourselves as at the interessection of three veryimportant things. And one CS and premium care, yes, one thing,but then we combine this with a tele medicine right, so you can accessthis anywhere, any time, and advanced medical technologies which concierge care normally doesn'thave. Right. So it is this combination of then we are have avery deep biotake background. We have our own labs and we actually lead theworld in next generation sequencing precision in specific in specific applications at least. Wehave a very extensive AII diificial intelligence team, so that is very unique. Ofcourse we ADEO. We are farther on what a normal concive practice cando, but we have great respond for concier physicians and we work together withthem. We have our own network that does certain things, and so it'sall about that intersection where the patient is the center. The patient is notinterested if you have lamps or not. The patient is interested in getting theirproblem solved or their protation ready, and so that's how we build that solution. Concierge Care Mindset, deep biotake, expertise in medical device and AI expertiseand a telemedicine platform that makes us a lean, easy approach. So andthen it sounds like. You also described a subscription based business model. Yes, exactly, so we have. We have a member should based system andthen you become busy in annual member and then you can purchase different packages orproducts what concerns you most. You can also purchase them all, of course, and yeah, getting your cancer protection goals met. That's how we describeit. Everyone has a specific, you know, feed or or real evidencefor cancer risk and doesn't know exactly how to handle it. So we helpyou there and then we add additional, you know, urgent categories like covidif the need arises, because we have a we have a very strong,you know, bio informatics, bio intelligence team with your biophds in Germany andin the US, in California, and they help us understand new situations veryquickly, including covid. The take underlying technologies very quickly. What is thedifference between the different entire body tests? What PC artists do we have?What is as a validation level? What's the clinical evidence? Everything's a littlecomplex in medicine. Right you can just say if it test for inter bodies, like, for what are these coronaviruses in cool nineteen right, it's aslike you know, and the answers in...

...most cases with covid people don't know. Is it like? Well, it's in Covid nineteen. That doesn't it'sexpressed on the surface of covid nineteen infected sales, but is it also onthe surface of other coronaviruses? So how specific is that test? All thesethings need to be figured out and in an inviting situation right now. Ithas to be figured out fast, because if you figured out in nine months, maybe that's not interesting for right right. You. Yeah, there's definitely asense of timeliness and urgency in being able to meet a new market needthat's kind of developed really just in the last thirty days. Right. Yes, and the interesting thing is things are very complicated medicine, especially if youadd deep technology to it. The whole ideas talk about the member should ifyou are a serenity member, it's quantite. Serenity is the product choose. SERENITYCOMis a website if you want to what we offered the patients is verydifferent from other testing companies, for example, which we don't view ourselves. Yeah, concier solution. That solves your problem or meets your goals. Normallyyou go in these websites and say, Oh, do you want to getsee a one hundred and twenty five testing or do you want to have testusteronetested? Say, who the Hell knows? I'M A I was saying, Idon't know, I don't know. I's like, ask you on youwant grant that protein or enter the body tested or that one is like,I don't know, I don't want to die of covid right. Yeah,and so our job is to translate that until Owan members, if you area member, you know we do everything we can to keep you safe byproviding you the medical advice and the underlying technologies, any differ necessary, alsothe coordination of care in cancer. If something happens, we give you takenopinions so you can, you know, sleep well at night and okay,whatever happens and what ever complexity I have to face, I have a partnerhere that helps me through this. I can rely on that part that tonot just be one random physician, but to be a, you know,highly connected and professionalized research organization that scans the globe for the latest in advancedmedical technologies, customizes around my case and make sure I get it. Yeah, well, and you know, having spent, you know, a lotof time in the pharmaceutical industry and Specialty Pharmacy Oncology, you know. Iknow that. You know when we're looking at the drug pipeline, that there'sa lot of oncology products that are coming through right that are up for aFDA approval and so forth. You know, like hundreds of them, and soit's so difficult for an oncologist to stay on top of that and absolutelyand it's you're absolutely right, for I'm patient. It's already impossible. Yeah, how would you know that? You know, you're in Pasadena. Thereis a new imaging technology developed right that is for breast cancer screens, forexample, is vastly superior to member Membo grams and in our eyes. Yeah, no one knows about it. It takes another ten years before they goesanywhere. But you should have access to it if you need it, becauseit's a low risk, you know, huge added level of protection against presscancer. It just because some Paya says, oh, I can't decide if Ican pay for a hundred bucks for that or, you know, Iwould pay to underbod forrest too much that they negotiate for ten years. Thesame is true for drugs. The same is true. We had now acase with a center, I can tell you which one, but very importantcenter and Germany, that used our data to actually develop a cancer they seemfor a kind of terminal or late stagepinker the cancer patient. That was partof our study. M So we are play Levy in very also in,you know, in very deep genomics and oncology feels. You know, mostpeople don't even know that this is possible, that you can develop custom cancer vaccinesthat are targeting specific change proteins for specific patients just based on liquid biopsyresults. All that is totally possible if you have the right experts. Butyou're need it's kind of experimental, right. Of course you don't have a lotof evidence for technologies that are new, but if you know your stuff aboutproteins and how cancer behaves, it's obvious that there is a benefit toit. And you know that's the question. Are you willing to take that riskif you have terminal cancer show and shouldn't be able to take it?And so that's kind of our thinking and I think you're absolutely right. Thepatient can't know that and the physician in the oncologies doesn't have the time todo that. We have a team of your over twenty people doing nothing elsethan global intelligence. So at these are positions, but they are also biophds, they are also machine learning PhDs. So we have you. You needa comprehensive team. It just gets the job done. Like he says somethingout there, then we need to know...

...about can he assess the clinical utilityand the efficacy of that new technology and can be quickly evolved it into somethingbetter by adding a layers, by combining it with other technologies, for example, combining advanced imaging for cancer detection with deep genomics, blood tests that lookfor cancermitations in the blood, adding these different technologies that both are not availableto standard of care, it just gives gets you right into the future ofmedicine. But you can do this today and the only difference is you knowour members, for example, for serenity, protect the deep genomics in AIS.That cost you two hundred dollars a month, so two thousand four hundredper year for one test and then a year long, like busy conciers,consultation. So it's not crazy. But if you go with it to Mabhere, that is laughing at you lis like well, you can save amillion people, we don't care for two thousand four hundred a year right whenit's forty bucks. And that's just, you know, wrong. So I'mnot going to say many catters something wrong. I'm just saying from my perspective ofthe patient, I don't want to hear that right right. So Ihear you talking a lot about the role of technology and I think health innovatorslike you have had a vision for the role that technology could play in healthcare for a long time. You know, describe your point of view on howyou think things are. How do you think that the market awareness andunderstanding of technologies role and care is necessarily changed? I would say changing becauseof Covid yeah, I think that's a very good point. So it's myfavorite topic. Obviously. That's why I started the company. I think ifyou want to bring disruptive innovation that is driven by technology, it's driven byhalfaway innovations, chemistry innovations like sequencing, certain PCA things, medical devices,but it's also vastly different by data technology and AI software internet. If youwant to develop a innovation that's truly saving life and is truly effective. WhoYou tinkeive in any sector, even outside health care? This is not trivialand you have your work out for yourself because you want to engineer something thatis unknown by definition, when engine the unknown? So they takes resources,it takes grial determination, a lot of things. Right, a little bitcrazy. A little bit crazy. You need some revision, the Ares,you need all kinds of things. Yeah, so, and unique capital like venturecapital. Right, there's risky. So, by the point is bringinginnovation from a vision to actually make you like, into a the world,to make it work, is a hard, complicated thing. Then we all lovingto do, but it's hard and complicated. Okay, this the firstthing. If you build Tesla or something, or rockets or software, you havea hard time. You have to do this. You have to inventif you have to find the business model, how you get you know, expensivesoff out first. That pays for the development and then scaled down likeTesla did it, and so on and so forth. Yeah, we knowthat, and that's very important. To understand the problem in healthcare. Whythis is stalling massively. Why, in healthcare you have a massive data betweenwhat's possible in innovation and what's being done. Is because an additional layer of complexityis added to the whole game that is extremely distractive. And then additionallayer is not regulation. It does not the FDA is it's not even medicalregulations. It is a payer system. Because in healthcare what people, nearlyeveryone I know, with the except of Quantin a very few other companies,says, if you don't get reimbursed and if you don't have a clear reimbursementcode and pathway to that code, you innovation is not going to happen.It's going to die in the basement. Yeah, and we are not goingto raise money. The you're not going to give you money and you're dead. The problem is, given the complexity of innovation, if you add thatlevel of additional complexity right and if you would have a tone tesla, youcannot launch your romster and you cannot launch your model eggs and not your modelless. You have to come out with a car that is perfect, cheaperthan internal combustion engines and that can be immediately sold to ten million people inone year. Otherwise you can start right. It's no one would have ever inventedtesla or any other innovation. And that is exactly happening in healthcare,and that's why we have a massive, massive gap between what is possible andwhat is being done. And the tragedy is that in healthcare it's the onearea, whether the opposite would happen,...

...we shouldn't save lives and people,including ourselves. Right. It's a very altruistic thing that it's also about ourspose. It's just not acceptable that the one sector when we massively fail indelivering that destructive potential is healthcare, where we want to protect ourselves, areloved ones and everyone else. And so our approaches. You can only solvethat problem if you reduce that equation and make it simpler and kick out thepayer problem. Yeah, and we kick it out by saying, well,we assume there are people out there were willing to pay to have their livesprotected, which is not a steep thesis. I think it's proven to be true. So I think that what you're describing is is something that's like across road that many health innovators find themselves and, and you know, correctme if I'm wrong, but what I hear you saying is there's this onepath where it may not be easier, I mean may not be easy,but it could be perceived as easier, is if I pick a currency PTCode, because then that gives my potential investor for more greater confidence and theviability and Sustainability or growth of my company. But at the same time it isextremely limiting and I might absolutely and you're absolutely right, that's exactly howthe vast majority of deep hells take investors and biotake investors think, and whatwe learned is to say, you know, what you're doing is great, weare not interested. Goodbye that, because that code and centric thinking thatexuly prevalent in biotake investing and has deep health. Take investing is toxic andyou can it's toxic to innovation and it's toxic to progress. And I cantell you very simple examples. The two exams are toward you. One isour own deep technology. You have. You have the world's first mighty cansaid he taketion capability with a deep genomics test. Okay, what is thecode for that? There is no code because right now it cannot be done. We are the first ones who can do this. Well, there aresome others who also good in, you know, in making progress, butthere is no code. So what do you do? You have to negotiatea new code and to do that it's just a ridiculous process, because thenyou have to it's not just new code, is also the entire economic system rounddoesn't exist. Right, tire outcome calculation doesn't exist. You have tocome up the entire thing. So instead of just showing this works, itcan save lives and we can provide it at that price and finding patients whocan pay for it and then scale it and then bring the price down andbring into more and more people, we you know, people just get stuckand they can race the money and it never happens. M and another exampleis imaging, like what I told you were like superior imaging technologies. Yeah, okay, now you have a code, it's very clear what it does,but then think crosses, twice as much, and then the insurance andyou're crazy, you're not going to pay twice as much. And then yousay, but you look the outcomes, they are fifty percent better. Andthen they say, are you crazy? Fifty percent better, but twice asmuch as it's not going to work for us. Yeah, it's occasion.Then it says like on the other side that says the opposite. Are youkidding me? You keep me fifty percent saber for like a hundred bucks morebecause I pay to one instead of one hundred. Yes, give it tome. So the incentives are just wrong. Yeah, it should. Would decideimmediately. Of course I pay you fifty per said more. Tries asmuch a hundred bucks more to keep me fifty percent safer from missing out onbreast cancer detection. But an insurances? No, thank you. Hey,it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you tryingto figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in thenew covid economy? I want every health innovator to find their most viable andprofitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivotkit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you findyour best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examinefor a three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call themthe six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit. You'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to makesure you can pivot with steed without missing out on critical details and opportunities.Learn more at legacy type and DNACOM backslash kit. So one of the otherthings that I hear you saying is really interesting is because, as we're kindof looking at these choices, in these decisions that health innovators are making,is that, you know, one way I may be looking at. Okay, if I get a cpt code, it may allow me to be ableto market to a much larger market. Right, my total addressable market mightbe much larger if I can align with...

...a cpt code and more of aa Bab approach. And so I hear and innovators talk all the time.I just need one percent of that market. Like you know, the potent theTam is, you know, a hundred billion and I just need onepercent. So surely this is going to work, without considering all of theyears and the obstacles down that path. And what I hear you saying isthat that you know, it's wise for health innovators to consider I might havea smaller addressable market, but I'm going to be able to get to marketfaster and I might have a much more viable business and I might have someolutlywant to get twenty percent of the market. But twenty percent of a smaller marketcan be much more powerful than one percent, you know, of alarger market. Exactly. And like sometimes it depends, like what's the totaladdress with market? Person Is, what's the real addressable market and all thesethings. Yep, and I like to view it a little differently. Ithink you know, you want to have something where you say, well,in general, basically everyone needs this thing. So in our case, who needsto be protected from cancer? Statistically, the answers everyone. Over, fly, over, probably over twenty. Yeah, forty five, exponentially moreso. There is our coal add rest of the market. It's to themiddlest and the's everyone. There's always a good starting point. And then wesay what's our real market? And I say our real market is what wecan actually say today. Yeah, and so I am. I am adifferent perspective. I want an unlimited Tam and I want the real market,but I always have a hundred percent because it's whatever I do right now becauseit has no competition, and then I want to grow that real market asmuch as I can bottom up. So I'm a little cretty good of this. Oh we have a ten billion ten and real one for stand like,who the hell cares? You? You should have a much bigger than tenbillion dollar market and you should, you know, just see. Can youget a hundred customers and do it today, and you can get two hundred inthe door next, next month, and then you're good. Yeah,what I've seen is that historically investors, when they hear that, instead ofbeing impressed, they run. Yeah, I think I mean investors. It'sa whole different story. I think we have a lot of experience. Iwas actually on the other side for some time. I was an MNA,so I think and I did a lot of, you know, work inquantity Ta eventure capital and build my own system there. So I haven't I'mvery aware that investors in the US you probably have, you know, fiftymillion investors. So to say, Oh, investors is already a mistake. Youfrom what massively complex heterogen is market, and especially in Asian and early stageand what we are doing now. We are in the proces of raisinganother round. What we really learned is to develop this pattern matching ability.That be just a void. We don't even take calls from certain investors whereyou deep by and take fun. We just say good, we like justpinched it before you even take the call, just right in an email why youthink you're a match, like because you probably not and we don't wantto waste our time with that stuff. Yeah, and but if someone islike an experienced consumer facing healthcare bench, a capital or early stage fun withthe experience both in deep take and in consumer facing sales fair products, thenyou're very hot for us and we's like like, well, you understand whatwe are doing and we understand how you think. Now it's worth having aconversation. So I mean, I think that that's a really valuable listen forour listeners, as well of just being being specific and kind of having somesome idea of WHO's going to be a best match from an investor standpoint andin not wasting time, like you said, not wasting valuable time pitching someone who'snot going to be a good fit anyway. Yeah, and then sounds. Of course, I know that some entrepreneurs think I got annoyed by theI think like, yeah, you have easy talking if we raised like thirteenmillion hours in more whatever. I didn't raise anything. I know it's hard. I have to talk to everyone and I think the truth is in between. You have to figure out for your own company, in your own pitch, what exactly is it that that you do and what exactly is your competitivespace, which is very important. Yeah, so I can do you do someinsight behind the scenes here. I think that's interesting for your listeners,probably who are entrepreneurs. The way we go about investors right now. Ithink investors, they are like three things as a triangle. You have tofigure out who are you and what is your product? Yeah, who areyour peers? And peace are not competitors, they are companies like you at thecore, and what is the investor...

...universe that has invested in these peers? Right? So there's a triangle we have to get right, and wethink this through very extensive list and research. In to give you an example,for us, our peers are not liquid by sea companies. They arenot like other companies that try to detect cancer early station the blood, becausethey are mostly slaves to the code. Right there cept slaves. So theywould literally nothing to do with us. They can never get this to market, they will never have anything in the next five for seven years. Sowhy would i? And if they ever do, they have to do totallydifferent things from us, also completely different belief system. Yes, so,even though the tech in one respect is similar to our one part of ourquar take, it's just not who we are. Where someone who is apremium primary care provider, even without takes closer to us. They have telemedicine, they have to recruit their patients, they have to convince about membership plans. Yeah, and so once you understand that, as a company asus, okay, now we are set out. Peers even better. Peersare people who combine consumer facing healthcare services with some kind of deep take,even if it is nothing to do with, you know, preventative or concierge orcancer, but something where you say, I don't know, the prescription drugsdirect to consumers somehow. We yeah, fool the face. But also tohave dealers with farmer companies or something. Yeah, give you universe and thenall you do is go on crunch phase or something and then figure outwho invested in them. And then you go to these VAC's and look up. Okay, what is today invest in versus a one awful. Do theyhave more of them? And then the next question is your around size.If you are ce stage, you want to raise a million, you needto find investors who are willing and able and if a track record of writingtwo hundred and fiftyzero dollar checks, Yep, you know they say, Oh,we invested into a hundred million and a privately fun, which is stupidand I mean they would. was just a complete mismatch. So I thinkyou know and then you learn over time. If you are pre series B orsee, smaller investors that are highly specialized are just so much better partnersthan, you know, vank guard or something. Right, let me helpyou. So, you know, I just say old everybody that's listening,you know, be discerning and get clear on this triangle. I think thatthere is a very clear and beautiful investor strategy for all of our listeners tokind of take you too. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Yeah,it was definite. The definitely hit. Doesn't also like invest us. Youknow, once you have something that's really hot, which we actually have onthe deep take side all investors are going to take some time and talk toyou and do due diligence. It's just not going to help you. Soit actually bad. They're just going to waste your time, they're going totake out your technology. And then happened to US last year. Like allthese Biotam I was like, Oh, we have sure, let's talk.Oh, let's get the data. Remolle very impressive. Take early, andat some point we just realize they will never invest because it comes to likehow you make money? We say not through a CPT code. It isa complete yeah, right. So and I said, oh, but youtake a so hard. You have the best different biopsy take. You know, the numbers are very impressive. You should totally be were very interested indoing this. If you pivot to a single cancer, taste CPT corner rectalcancer only. And then we said no, that's the dumbest thing there ever her. Yeah, and you know and sometimes that you need to be boldenough to say that and have courage to just say no, no, andI think that it's good for us to continue to have that conversation to empowerother investors to say, like, this is what we're doing, this iswhat successful, and I said no, and you can say no to yeah, yeah, that's why I'm always a big friend of raise a little morethan you need and spend much less than you want to, because they usuallythe ability. We say no S. Well, we don't have a lotof money in the bank, but we also have a very low burn rate. So whatever, go home if you don't want us. Right, red, you're not desperate. You're here, right, you're you're not putting adesperate situation. Okay, so that was a perfect segue and to my nextquestion, talking about raise more than you need and reduce your burn right.And so my question is, how is covid impacting Your Business? So inhow our specific case? I think the bottom line is it was tremendously positive. Looking back so far, yes, surprising. Number One, killer workand remote work turned out to be highly effective. Everyone just gets so muchmore effective because there is will be essaying. It's like, okay, if todeliver your stuff, I don't even see you, so next time Isee you we can just discuss if ye have the stuff. Well, thatwas very awesome. People, well,...

...the teams are. I think it'sdifferent. Some people become more productive at home and some less, and soit's IM point to keep up the spirit and motivation, but also the peoplewho are very good in that situation. Just leave them, let them runand do their stuff. Yeah, I'll be eyes. I'm also violating thatthe rules a little bit. Hang out in the office, as you see, and I didn't know you were going to tell everyone that. You peopletotally distanced. It's like, you know, at Fifty Person Office with three peoplein there. Yes, sixte apart. And so there's also the saying thata tough times accelerate innovation. I think that's absolutely true. We lookat the stock market and look at Amazon and Netflix. They are higher,they have historic highs because they as oh you know, and I think it'sa so most of the things as are positively. There are three things Iwould look at for quanting and Covid. Number One, productivity is up.Clearly up. That's good. Product and innovations beed. Definitely totally up,because it gave us a new perspective. We actually ended two more products thenwork very easy to add that we didn't see before. Yeah, we're testingor busy. So product development and innovation speed is up. General productivities up. Fundraising steady down, then took it him. I think it's turning arounda little bit and now, since we are now a coovid company, that'sactually very helpful. Again tell the medicine and covid without like and making itfake news. I mean it's actually matches our our profile right. It's nota stretch. It's still who you are. Yes, yeah, but not everythingis, you know, rainbows and unique codes in covid times. Imean a lot of investors are clearly very much holding back. Yeah, wesee is not so much but family offices, because some took hits. But worsethan taking hits, there they are swamped by opportunity. That is abig problem for us. Yeah, I just talked to emily. I wasin they said, you know, we came by triple a rated bonds ata cents on the dollar right now. So we get free money with norisk. Why would be do any DC investments right now? So I hopeso, my goold recover US one markets recover, and then I think theywould turn back to re see investments. And I think we shouldn't go tocrazy min my prediction with covid as is David dainitly did being down. Ithink was a little overhyped. It's always, of course, trady to have anykind of CONDENDIC and people dying that normally wouldn't have died. That's terrible, but I think the scale of it is a little overblown. Yeah,see. Now. So let's talk about some of the pivots that you've done, because I've I almost kind of think of it like little Easter eggs inour conversation. You know, I've kind of heard you talk about kind oflike a product pivot and maybe a positioning pivot. Probably your value proposition haschanged. Certainly every I would say across the board. Everyone's sales strategy hasbeen pivoted because we're we're not meeting facetoface anymore. But help us understand whatthat process was like for you to kind of evaluate your pre covid market strategyand then analyze the different paths that you could take and what was going tomake the most sense for you and in some of the decisions that you made. I mean the funny things. We were on a trajectory of change beforeColvin then was just completely accelerated through coque covid. So it was not somethingthat was changing. Our strategy was just accelerating and the history of punching isa history. Where we started as a legal biose company plea. I basicallysaw the specific technology opportunity. Then I figured out a way to detect multiplecancers at early stages in the blood. Yeah, and with very high efficiencythrough some very deep innovations. And what we found out over the last fiveyears developing this deep tech. So we we started super deep. You know, revolutionized and next generation sequencing, build massive new software infrastructure for single processingand then an AI system will recognize cancer pattern so it's like hardcore stuff.That was a lot of fun and also completely changed the you know behind thescenes what's happening in the industry. Of course, we were a little naiveabout it and found like, well, all you have to do is totake cans of early stage. I mean, what else is there to say?Right, we know what that you can say. Four Hundred Tho Americanlives a year. So why then? Cannot be hard to sell to investand we know you can't save anyone.

We goes no one's going to payfor it. And then, you know, this disychotomy started, like what doyou mean know what is going to pay for saving four Hundredzero American livesa year? And well, in theory it sounds good, but what's theexact cpt plan? Yeah, like what? We need a new code for multicancer detections. And then everyone says this is just literally not possible,like it's just not possible, regardless of what to show. And then Irealize this is just madness. These people agree with me, it works,it agrees, they agree. We can save more American lives per year.Then America lost in the Second World War in total and there was says,not a big D we just can't pay for it. We don't. Wecan't figure out the code. So and then I daught to me, okay, these this just complete madness here. Yeah, and then led to thepivot. Okay, we need to figure out how we unlock it selfpay ourmarket, say this is directly you patients. Then build so much evidence, andalso psychological evidence, that you'd basically save the hundred thousand people that theinsurance just can or Medicet, they can stop it anymore. That's ours,Faddie. And so doing that let us down this pants from being a hardcoremedical technology company to. Okay, we need conceive care, we need tooffer, we need to bring this to page. We have to be nicerthan we have to be, you know, service oriented. Have the best physiciansand the Best General Counselor set up, you know, significantly better than yournormal physician, ideally. And then we came into like how are we, as a start up, going to roll that out nationwide? You knowI'll be are we going to build, you know, tenzero retail out less? Like, probably not. And then then lend up as to tell amedicine. And so we started building a tele medicine infrastructure and the position infrastructureto deploy this deep take. And then all happened last year and the beginningof this year, right, and then and tell the medicine was one afterI thought. It was like, okay, we can't be retails, so let'sjust try tele medicine. I know people don't really like it. It'snot that great. It's better to a retail, but whatever. That's justgood. And then covid hit. And then first we thought, who,this is like irritating. Now we have all this problem in the problems.But then became very tele it's in the absolute booze to our approach because youdon't tell the medicine went to like a step child to I just had someoneon the show a couple of weeks ago that's been working and advocating for tellthe medicine for twenty seven years and finally, and it took a global pandemic.It's a little bit like, you know, climate change. The guyssaid I. I say who, we have to start climate change and thewhole here we burn too much and no one listens. I was I getwhatever, and then covid hits and suddenly you meet your cootwo goals in onemonth. That one right, right, buddy. So it's kind of ait is and I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, I thinkthat the complete global shutdown of the world and having to go to technology andremote and virtual has been a convergence of many positive market conditions and kind offorcing change, change. That's that's culminating into this beautiful recipe that is goingto accelerate adoption of these tools that innovators like yourself have been kind of bangingtheir head up against the market for years trying to get adoption and all ofa sudden you know those growth curves are going to just skyrocket and it.You know, it might not be in the next thirty days, but youknow at some point will flip the switch, turn the dial, and I don'tthink I mean we'll never look back. It's exactly that's important. It's nota one off. Seeing that people are going to say, oh nowit's over, let's just go back to our retail things. Write Amazon,like once you wander everything through on your force and everything just gets delivered allthe time. It's cheaper and better. It's like, why would I evenstop that? And until a medicine. Oh yeah, these premium services,and then you can just go on the screen. You get a better,nicer physicians because they can be better trained and will focus on your problem andthey know up one time and and I also think, you know, BEA'sget a boost, because we are already on this trajectory of direct, directprimary care right so that people I use, Oh, maybe at p ninety ninea month, and then I get actually exist to a position having nowa lot more people are being incentivized to just take out their credit card andstart paying for their health very reasonable amounts, like a bunch of Cappuccinos a monthor something. Right, right, that's wait a moment. I'm payinga five founded for my car and paying two thou what goods and paying ahundred for Cappucchino's. Maybe I shouldn't pay a hundred for keeping me alive completelyand I think actually as I who is...

...actually pretty good. Finally, Ican have intended in conversations with a physician who's actually trained and, you know, addressing my issues or, even better, as genetic counselors and real deep experts. That's what we offer. We have busy physicians you can talk to, but also genetic counselors and, maybe, most important in this context, takeexperts. But you can actually ask questions about how does this take actuallywalk with positions. Normally don't know obously. So you know, you can actuallyinvestigate exactly. Okay, what mutations are you looking at? How doesthis Ai Work? You know what are the bases that it a random forces. It basically lay out over and you will be surprised. You always assumehow the patient is. All these like thesis, Weird Assumption in medicine,patronalising medicine. Right, every patients like the little dumb. You know,I q of Seventy and don't know anything, and you will be surprised at allthese. You know, went to a capital fun partners and take entrepreneursand you know, AI specialist. So people need podcasts. And you knowour riders and medicine. They are all patients, right, they remembering?Yeah, they're very smart, probably no more than the many physicians. Andyou know, this is also our clientele. We are used to people who,you know, know their stuff, who are used to making very complexdecisions based on very complex, imperfect information in their everyday lives, or evenlike thinkers and researchers. So they definitely understand what we are saying and theywant to know the details. So, as we wrap up here, whatlessons learned or advice do you have for your fellow entrepreneurs who are in thetrenches like you, trying to figure out how they're going to survive or thrivein this new covid economy? Well, I think in healthcare, as anentrepreneur, I can just encourage everyone to really think like a businessperson and reallythink about okay, what is the value I'm actually generating? Who's my actualcustomer, including my investors, like who are the people who I want moneyfrom, who I promised to deliver a value too. Yeah, exactly isthat? And what is that value? And if that doesn't work right nowbecause there's some coovid thing going on, is there something that is closed?So it's based on the same principle that I'm promising, that I can pivotto. And, for example, we were all about cancer protection, whichwe still are, and this will still remain vastly important covid right, likein rational terms, not in the painic terms, and but we saw ifour promise is well, we provide a premium prevarative care through telemedicine solutions toyou by bringing advanced medical technologies to where to protect you. If you takethat and apply to Covid, I mean it's pretty clear what you have todo. You know, offer in product with specialized consultation that tests anti bodiesand the current state of ourn a. So do you have it and had? Did you have it? And and allow access to that where you justpay and you get it? Yeah, and and that is exactly what wedid in cancer, where we say, well, you can wait ten yearsand then you get that maybe, or you can just come to us andget it now with better actually advice. The same is true for Covid.Only then, and you know, with code you don't have to wait tenyears before. We have to wait one year to get it, but thenstill insufficient. And so the exact same Parad I mean did apply to cancertechnology and protection, we can apply to covid. It took us some timeto realize that because I was first against it. I thought like this isall stupid panning and it's overdone, and then slowly I realize, well,it doesn't even matter what the medical facts are, this is definitely happening.Yeah, and people are definitely scared and that definitely want to know that.And then we kind of pivot or added that to the portfolio. So Ican just then would be my advice. Just you can't put enough time intobusiness model and economic understanding of what you actually do, like what is thevalue? Yeah, and you know, it reminds me that there are quitea few health innovators that I think if they paused during this time and theyevaluate their pre covid market strategy and their new options that they could take right, whether it be another customer segment tweaking their product or maybe their business model, they might even find that their new pivot strategy could actually have a betterproduct market fit then what they originally even had to begin with. Right.But you talk about innovation and creativity that can be derived from chaos. Ithink that will have a lot of success stories when we come out of this. Absolutely and I think chaos is just...

...positive for innovators because it puts youout of whatever side of you were in. And we agree. Example, weliterally spend not ninety five percent of the money we spend and attention everythingwe spend over the last five years. What's in deep to normals and cancity tection. And then it took us four weeks to realize there is ahereditary test we could offer. And when they did the coold test, thenliterally would, you know, add to our revenue like thirty or fifty percent. So we maybe one percent or the effort of the entire original taste thatwe addit, you know, fifty percent to our entire business by just havingthat ideas like why don't we just also plug in clinical a great hereditary testingand coold testing? It's pretty easy, like it was ridiculously easy compare towhat we did before. There's core and button from and Quinsu upon of you. We just a look three times more awesome. Right, right, yeah, huge. Well, it's been a very delightful and valuable conversation. Thankyou so much for sharing your wisdom with our listeners. So, Joe,how can folks get Ahold of you? If someone wants to learn more aboutyour solution or just really POW wow with you about you know what it's likebeing a health innovator today? Yeah, I think basically those who either reachout on twitter and Joe Black Dy. That's my twitter one, Genecom,that's the website. I'm also had to get emails Jab and Quantinecom, andthese are the best ways to do it and choose serenitycom, of course,awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks a lot, Don Darsie, fora pleasure. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy workingto bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and yourattention. To save time and get the latest episodes on your mobile device,automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotifyand stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who's been sharing theshow with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Coiq.

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