Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 2 years ago

How Health System Adoption, Hiring Models & Consumer Behavior Impacts the Success of Innovations w/Roger Jansen


The healthcare system we have is incredibly complex, cumbersome and expensive, and that makes it extremely difficult to innovate within it. What are some of the barriers that innovators are running up against, and how can we mitigate them? How do we take consumer expectations and behavior into account? How does the healthcare model contribute to a lack of innovation within the system?

On this episode, I’m joined by HealthEco CEO and Co-Founder, Roger Jansen. We talk about how to overcome the execution, adoption and implementation issues in innovation. 

3 Things We Learned 

Human adoption plays a huge role in successful commercialization 

The barrier to the adoption of healthcare often isn’t whether the product is a better innovation. It’s actually more about people being willing to emotionally process change to do something differently. The consumer will be slow on the emotional side and won’t want to change to a new innovation easily, especially when it’s a transformative product, not just an enhancement of an existing solution. 

The payment model of healthcare separates it from other consumer products 

Free market principles don’t necessarily apply to healthcare, and a lot of it has to do with the payer model. Because the consumer pays only a very small portion for the services they receive, people don’t shop the way they do for other consumer products.  


Don’t talk about features, talk outcomes 

Frame up the problem as clearly as you can, don’t sell your innovation on the features. Sell very effectively on how the innovation makes life easier and better, not on how cool the technology is. 


The healthcare sector has been harmed by a culture that doesn’t support new approaches, and it doesn’t even hire with a transformative intention. This has impeded innovation and made it impossible for change to come from within the system. All disruption in our industry comes from outside the system, but those innovators run into the same barriers and challenges. In order to succeed as innovators, we have to be focused on the problem we solve, not the features of our innovations. We have to think about the adoption of our solution, both on the consumer side, and from a health system perspective. 

Welcome to CIQ and first of its kind video program about health innovators, early adoptors and influencers and their stories about writing the roller coaster of healthcare innovation. I'm your host, Dr Roxy, founder of Legacy DNA marketing group, and it's time to raise our COIQ. Welcome back to the show coiq listeners. On today's episode I have Roger Janson with us. He is the CEO for Health Eco. He's also the chief strategy officer for spectrum health. Welcome to the show, Roger. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it, and I just left my role as chief strategy offered spectrum health to completely focus on health eco. Oh Wow, okay, well, that's a great entree into tell us a little bit about your background and what you do. Sure, so, I my formal training is my PhD's and clinical and neural psych and did the typical psychologist routes, saw patients for a while on that type of thing, and I've always had a passion for innovation and for business. And how do you actually take great ideas, understand how do you not only create the great idea, that execute on it, and then how do you actually scale and bring that ideither the market in a robust manner. So for the past nine years I've been in the ministrative side, in the C suite of a health system, then thatch strategy officer, as well as the president of our innovation or our ventures group, in the chief chairman of our innovations division. In that role of at the opportunity to kind of see great ideas both succeed as well as fall short, and sometimes the ones that you thought would be absolutely successful or the ones that turn out to be, for some reason now the ones adopted and person and I think we're always learning about why some innovation and great ideas work and others aren't as great as we thought they were out of the gate. Yeah, absolutely. So what what are you doing in your role as the CEO for a health ego? Yeah, so our focus right now is actually to work with what we call the health ecosystem, because we don't believe that a lot of the innovations that happen both inside a health systems as well as at employers or even with early stage or growth stage companies, that there seems to be this barrier between the great idea and the actual execution, adoption and implementation of that idea and as a result, sometimes we have amazing solutions that, for one reason or another, don't get adopted and as a result, the life cycle of that company gets shortened and they disappear and as we see that, we're actually missing great opportunities to help patients, to do a better job at delivering care and to bring solutions in the market place that really should have their voice. And so what we're trying to do is actually work with all major constituents in health from venture capitalists to health systems, to payers, to employ your son and so forth, and actually create a common platform from which we can work to solve these common problems, instead of having this very UN keyness and these one off, quote unquote sound...

...bites that creates a very noise and in confusing ecosystem, that we actually bring a rhythm, in a pattern to that ecosystem so we can get to the best solutions in adoption of those solutions more readily. So that's one area. There's certainly other things that we do, but that that's an area I think relevant to your to your audience. Okay, excellent. So how would you describe the roller coaster of healthcare innovation today. I you know, I think it's very different inside of a system, outside of this entrepreneur versus large company. Yeah, from inside health systems, what I tend to see is that innovation departments are typically just IP departments. Or maybe a physician or someone else has an interesting idea and it's brought to the group and they don't know how to monetize it, how to commercialize it, even how to do market analysis of how readily the idea would be adopted or now, and so innovation is really kind of a misnomer in that respect. And I think health systems in general, it doesn't matter who you are, where you are, are very focused on what's immediately in front of them and their next meeting, and so whole idea of R and d within health system seems to be lost. I know health systems who are fifteen and twenty million dollars in revenue. When you ask them, what is your rd budget, they don't even know how to think about that and they even have one. So I would say innovation within health systems is very difficult. Yeah, like it takes a different personality and entrepreneurial mindset to be successful there. I think within larger corporations where you know they're competing in more of a free market, where they have to compete against others who have equally talented engineers and staff, and others can think differently in our forced to, because their economics are based upon that. Yeah, systems economics. If you're sick or injured, you're going to the doctor, you're going to the hospital in your community, and the less competition we have for that and the more that one system owns tertiary, quatinary specialty care, you know, the less innovator we have to be around everything from payment models to deployment and of resources. So I think we have a long way to go to become faded inside health systems, is what we have been. Maybe outside health systems. I think one of the biggest gaps is the successful entrepreneur, or someone who should be a successful entrepreneur, can't get the right audience within health systems or with the payers and others, and there's always this prove it to me first and then you know we'll work with you later. In that creates a real gap and it's difficult to really allow innovation at scale to unfold when they have those real barriers in front of them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So. You know, last time you and I talked we were talking about this statistic that I came across, which really is kind of the foundational for all the work that we do and really catalyst for this show that ninety five percent of innovations that are brought to market fail to reach any adequate level of customer acceptance or profitability. So want to get your perspective. Why do you think some innovations fail and some succeed? I think it's, you know, it's a multivariate response, right. I think on one level,... what is true innovation versus what is, you know, something brand new versus enhancing something that's already in place. But I think what's the irony of it is I think most people adopt solutions that make what they're already doing easier for them to do, whether that's Uber to get a cab ride or it's, you know, Hotelscom be get a last minute hotel room. It's finding a solution that makes what I always the problem I already have in front of me easier for me. So getting people to ultimately change their behavior and, you know, say I want to do this differently is difficult and you're talking about a behavioral change process that I just don't think many of us appreciate. I'll give you one example. We invested in a company that did some really interesting things with measurement of bodily fluids and it's absolutely fantastic. It does some wonderful things, but unfortunately getting physicians to adopt how they would use that technology to measure blood loss and other issues is really difficult because you've been doing it by sponge counted for a long time and even when we can show an ury and improvement and even safety improvements, sometimes adoption of technology is just as in as strong as we would think because it just makes so much logical sense. So the biggest barrier we often face isn't one of is it a better product or solution, it's the emotional side of change and the emotional side of believing that it's going to be better when than what I'm already doing, because I'm already pretty good what I do already. So I think we have a number of issues that we go through that are less about product and more about humans thinking and processing and emotional side than it is about is there really something better out there? Because there's just incredibly smart people putting incredible solutions that just don't get adopted and you sit and go, how did that network right? Right, yeah, so do you think it is the same for healthcare? You know, in the context that you just described? Do you think it's the same for health the same complexity for healthcare is it is for these other industries and and you know, you kind of think of just how other industries are being disrupted. Often that still or kind of require and some behavior change, which I absolutely agree with you is. Is there some other drivers in the healthcare industry, just inherent, that make it even more complex than if you were in other markets? I think so. You know, the way healthcare is paid for is is, you know, very different than any other product and free market principles don't necessarily apply to healthcare. So I think sometimes we think that healthcare is this vastion of you know, it operates like every other industry, and I can tell you because of regulations, because of how payment is made, because of way people get to make decisions, because there's an esoteric level to the knowledge that's present. It isn't like buying a refrigerator and because the consumer pays only a very small portion of the services that they received... a typical basis. What we also see. People don't shop or operate like they do with other consumer products. So I do think there's something unique about bringing these solutions to healthcare, but I believe the disruption probably comes from the outside, not from within the inside. I just don't see an incredible amount of motivation for health systems to change, you know, as much as we look at them and say they're doing the latest and greatest. If we had a time machine and we can go back to one thousand nine hundred and eighty, it really besides, maybe some decorations on the wall wouldn't feel too different than it does. Sad, sad, sad, but true. Yeah, yeah, and you know, unlike other industries, you know, we're talking about lives that are at stake right and not just those people over there, but our families and maybe even ourselves one day. So there's definitely a lot more at stake. I had a head and physician entrepreneur on the show not too long ago and he was innovating outside of a health system, but it was something that absolutely click. Solved a problem that the health system that he was affiliated with, experienced and they were completely opposed to it. He had to go external to the market. Yeah, launch it successfully, share it with some of their competitors and then all of a sudden they were ready to adopt yeah, yeah, and I think that's probably more true than not true. Unfortunately, I've heard that story from different physicians. Actually had a call with just a physician not too long ago, just this morning, and you know, they're feeling like they can't be a profit in their own land and they can't get their solutions adopted. And I roxy, I really think what's going to continue to happen, as you're going to see, once you create a culture where you don't support new approaches and you don't approach failing as it isn't we failed, we just tried another way that maybe was in the successful as we thought. Until we get to the next level. Yeah, you really impede and you only attract a certain type of employee to that environment, and so I've always said your best employees are volunteers and they're going to walk at some point if they can't do what they want. Very much reminds me of a friend of mine who's a an elite chef who was forced to work at a university and he could not express his true chef talents cooking for dormitories, and so he eventually ended up leaving and creating, you know, what I would say was a very successful restaurant. Continues to operate three of them today, because he felt his talents were being locked up and limited. And I think if you get people who are really good at maintenance and operations, but they think that running a hell system is just making what we do today better than what it was yesterday, in more efficient than it was yesterday, versus how do we transform form what we do? I think what you're going to get is what we have in the United States right now, and...

...incredibly blacks, incredibly cumbersome and incredibly expensive health system. That's actually not a system, because a system would imply that there's a process that connects things together to get an outcome. What it is is every hospital for themselves and we don't really have a healthcare system in the United States. We have a payment system through the government, but systems themselves are not really employed. Sure so. So I think that, you know, you have a very unique point of view for our listeners right, because a good portion of our audience are is is really trying to sell to organizations in the role that maybe you had previously. Right, and so you know what? What are some strategies that you recommend and how do they how do they how do they get in front of the right people? I have a whole bunch of other questions, but I'll just get one at the time. I'll say it's tough. It's really difficult because the way that most hell systems operate as you're given a budget, you operate according to that budget, and that budget really says, you know, I have money in here for company X to approach me and start a new product or a new service. I think those who have the biggest struggler are the ones are going to require a lot of behavioral change from somebody to do something differently, someone who automatic. It's something like a sales forcecom that makes managing, you know, connections and customer management more easily. Are something I already have to do. So now just becomes a features play and a price play. But if you're coming with something that one we don't currently do into it's going to cost me more money to do it in three. I don't even know if I need to do it. Anyway. You've got a really difficult road. So I think my approach is always when I was you know, I always have vendors still to this day, you know, call me in a regular basis and I always try to listen because I figure that I really don't know everything and I need to be open to different approaches. So I think finding the right c suite individual is the right way to go, and I do recommend the C suite as much as you can, because I think everybody else is in hell. Systems. That particularly is are looking at what is their spend and is it going to be connessary with what they think it should be relative to the outcomes are getting? The other piece that I've always found helpful is frame up. The problem is clearly as you can sell me on the features. Everybody seems to get really feature focused, like my APP or my SLUICI. You do this, this, this and this, and I still walk away going but that doesn't solve my problem. And it's really cool technology you built, but I wasn't on the streets looking for cool technology. I'm trying to figure out how does your product solved the issues that I have and I haven't heard a lot of people really sell me as effectively and how it's going to make my life easy. You're and better. It's always about how cool would this be if you did this? Oh my...

...goodness, and that is that mean, that's like just business one hundred and one, right, marketing one hundred and one. I mean it's so foundational and we all know it. I mean those people that are pitching you, they know it. It's just it's a real hot difficult habit to break. Is I think what you know. We buy so many consumer products. It's how many megabytes my computer have? How fast is my cargo? You know, how many droolers does my refrigerator have, for that matter? And we get so feature focus, but it's not consumer product selling that most are doing, and so I think we get a little caught in that and that that's always been something worse. Soon as we starts talking about the features, it's not as interesting as somebody's talking about the outcomes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and you know, you kind of remind me of you know, another thing around like storytelling, which I think you're kind of also touching on, is you know, just because you have a technology that's superior to what's on the market, or even if it solves a real problem, it doesn't mean that you're going to automatically be successful that. I really think that storytelling ends up being really important too, and it's interesting to hear that you said that you know, most people aren't really telling the right story or good story. Yeah, no, I'm not. I and also I don't know if they think about adoption of their solution, because it takes so much scale to make it a real business and it takes so much internal adoption to ast you make it a real solution for any health system. So you know, if you have, let's say, a thousand physicians at Your Hospital on your product is solving, you know, that solution for seven of those physicians, that may or may not be enough and that may or may not be something that's, you know, worth your time and energy. So, yeah, I think I haven't you know, I think some of the best vendors that I've dealt with make me feel like they've become a partner and are helping me be more successful and what I'm doing versus I'm helping them get their product into into a company. Yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense. So what would you say is the biggest challenge in commercializing and innovation? You know, so we're we're touching on some of that. But is it problem solution fit, problem market fit? Is it storytelling? Is it the misalignment of the payment initiatives? Is it something else or all the above? Yeah, I think there's certainly, you know, to every question there's a simple answer and it's wrong. Right. So I think what's city to that question. I think one of the things I see is that in this is not something that's fun, but I think sometimes the solution is ahead of the market and so you know, even if you have best x, Y and Z solution, the market might not be ready to pay for it or it might not band it, and so, you know, making a market is really, really difficult. And commercializing, whether and if you're trying to commercialize an asset from your health system out into the broader market, I think it be comes an issue of competence, because I don't think many health systems have that competence, even...

...if they have a great product, whether it's an insurance product or it's a primary care product or what it might be, they don't really understand how to build a business. Their business built from Hundred Years of being in that facility. Grandparents were born there, I was born there, everybody's born there right built in business and because nobody else can fix the broken bone, I'm going to come there. So now I think sometimes we act like these businesses of healthcare are the same as traditional you know, for competing. It's against GM and it's just not. It isn't. We have to recognize that. So once you begin to recognize that, then you have to think about what can I do to help them either diverse by their revenue streams, repatriate margin because I can spend less of my service or not, or create some type of unique niche within a market that allows them to be successful and generate a new business from the one that they currently don't have or the commands. But I think one off solutions are really tough and I think things that are very episodic, in what healthcare is eternal, are also very, very difficult. So you know, I don't have an easy answer for how to do that because I don't think it's in there is an easy answer. So so you know, I want to ask you this question. I live in Dreamland and then I also live in reality, right, so both, both worlds. But thinking of Dreamland, if there was two or three things that you could change that would make innovation and healthcare easier, what would be that? What would you change inside a health system from that perspective, be either inside or outside? Either inside to innovate within and to go out or to be more right, for adoption for everything that's coming into the system. Well, I think you need to start with our health systems. Really not for profit. And is that the right model still and in some cases that. In other cases may not, but rarely does anyone around the globe say, if we really want to be innovative, we're going to go look at not for profits, because it hasn't forced that economic model and it hasn't forced that type of thinking. Yeah, it's difficult to win a basketball game when you're playing with tennis players. You need to get people who understand if I want to innovate and not just maintain and be more bureaucratic, I need to bring entrepreneurial spirit and talent capability able that tended to be frowned upon within, you know, your aucracies and governments and things of that nature cause and trouble over there, right over there, you think differently. That's not how we do things around here, you know, is Steve Job, says the crazy ones that'll change the world, except in healthcare. So you know, I think you've got to get some got to get some different thinking in your business to begin with. Any other thing that people need to do from a dreamland perspective, is they need to set aside a portion of their budget for these steps of activities on and it can't be we're going to give it there because it's cute and fancy.

You need to do it because it's what's going to drive transformation, it's going to drive a future. But that really requires a third thing that I think most people fail to think about, which is not innovation and it's pure sense, the innovation of a business model. We haven't seen a lot of systems spend time innovating their business model, but I think where you know great companies go is they innovate their business model. And if you take a look at what apple is done, is apple the technology company? Are they a company that warehouses information? Are they a company of Digital Therapeutics? They continue to innovate their business model, just as on and others have done. You know, Google has nine businesses that have a billion users a day and then they have a other hundred businesses that make no money. And those other businesses are all about how do they create what's the next billion dollar or billion user business or feed and nation to the others. Find a healthcare system WHO's willing to take a loss on R and D and You know I'm willing to buy a great state dinner right right. It's not the mindset and be and I think if profit in executives and healthcare can continue to be paid upon their margins, you're going to see them operating in a way that just drives margin, and margin is maybe the wrong thing for a not for profit to be measuring itself on. So we've got a whole bunch of conundrums within healthcare that need to really get addressed. I think if you were to start with standardized pricing across the country, just like they have in Japan, where an MRI is a hundred and thirty four dollars no matter where you go, you get pretty innovative about how you attract that talent and how you attract those consumers to versus our current model, which nobody really cares and nobody has to compete on price. Right, right. Yeah, completely. So you touched on something earlier that I want to I don't want to overlook, about prove it first. Right. So when health innovators are, you know, trying to get into systems that they've got to prove it first. So we've had some conversations previously around, you know, pilot clinical studies, peer reviewed studies. You know, do I have to have just a couple of pilots? Do I have to have some peer reviewed studies? How much proof do I need to have before I have enough credibility to be able to get some adoption? You know what you what's your take on that? You know, I think it depends on the type of product and solution. I mean, like if you take a look at behavioral health, which I'm passionate about, you know, round numbers, there's Tenzero apps a year that are put into the APP store around behavior health or conic disease. Exactly point to five percent of them have done any research. So people through all scientific jargon and they have great bells and whistles, but we're actually potentially damaging our patient populations by putting apps into a market place or extremely noisy and confusing and once they try them, they Geez, I tried this and I still didn't get better. We've actually increased their risk and there symping methology the versus simply know, saying wasn't good technology begin...

...with. So I think what you need is you need to have some credible people who are willing to evaluate what your product and for me that typically means who is your board of Directors or board of Advisors? Have they looked at this and said this is something I'm willing to put my name in my brand behind? You know, the people who the rest of the industry would say they respect, because you know, having a PhD and having done a lot of research, you know research is great, but research is limited in research takes time and research takes money and it's somewhat the antithesis of what entrepreneurs have. They don't have a lot of time and I have a lot of money. So you need to be able to balance those things with enough credibility that you're not becoming, you know, Johns Hopkins, Research to department, but you're becoming credible because the thought, the discipline, the rigor and that you are willing, once a solution is adopted, to continue to put it through the research that a help system in others might need to ensure it's use. Uh Huh, yeah, that makes sense. If if a health innovator was standing before you with, you know what some of the requirements that you would have to ton seriously consider what they had to offer. One is in this going to sound really, really basic, but is it even worth my but a big enough population that it's going to make a big enough difference? So, for examples, you know I've heard people bring ideas to me that are so esoteric and for such a small group of people that, with the relative time I have to spend on the other things, yeah, it's never big enough impact. So, you know, can it make an impact for a large enough group of people to is it going to somehow do one of three things, improve my outcomes, lower my cost or create new markets and revenue that I currently don't have? And then probably the other thing that's really relevant, and I haven't seen a lot of entrepreneurs bring this to me, but is how much you willing to work with me and you know, how flexible can you be working with me versus. Here's the way it's going to look and here's the way it's going to operate and this is my pricing model and everything else. So I think there needs to be a partnership and, you know, I think bringing systems together to do things together is better than just selling me alone. So I've always found it helpful that save myself and three other chief strategy officers, or whoever it might be, would have gotten together and said, let's try this. There's power and strengthen numbers. So I would recommend entrepreneurs hold of meeting, bringing the right people who you think you're going to sell to together and have them spend two hours with you, you know, in a Chicago or a location that's convenient, and after your solution and, if it works, you know, pay them for their time, giving them an equity position in this whatever it might be. But you need to make it more than just a vendor relationship out of the gate. Yeah,...

...and I think that's really important. It's a really good point. You know, some of the health innovators that I work with think that they have to have everything figured out in all of the answers in order to be credible and in order to really get in front of, you know, folks like yourself and and I think that sometimes it's okay for some of those things to be somewhat glary and ambiguous. You got to have some substance there, but seeing it as a partnership and having some flexibility could could be a very viable approach. Yeah, I actually I've never met a company or human being or anything that has it all figured out. You know, this is either so, this isn't math, or you know too and two equals. For although I have a friend as a theoretical mathematician, it tells them that's actually not accurate. I don't know how it's not accurate as well above me, but all the time, and I'm sure he's right, I don't understand it right. Yep, I would tell you, you know, that ability to recognize that you don't have all the answers and that you're part of a solution is probably more resonates with me more than anything else. But that also gives opportunity for me to have influence on your company and say here's how we might want to improve it, which makes more brought in and therefore more likely to say I like this. Yeah, yeah, completely. So who's doing it well? You know what, are some innovators out there, whether they're, you know, those big beer addic systems who have figured out a way to innovate, or whether it's some innovators out there that either luck or or our experience and expertise, that are just doing it really well that our listeners and our audience should pay attention to. Yeah, you know what's sad about that? It's like when people ask me WHO's a great president over the last hundred years, I struggled to jump to any answer. You know that as a negative it's just like when I think about you know, maybe we've idealized the Jeffersons or the Washington's of the link much, but you know so many flaws about so many people today that it's hard to come up with someone. So No, I've gotten to know so many innovators, health system innovators throughout the country. I think a lot of my former peers are doing some really great things. To say that everybody, anyone, has it completely figured out and this is the model that absolutely works, I think would be probably vote. I do think some of the things that I've been exposed to the amazons and the Google's of the world are probably more jaw dropping than people who haven't seen them are going to recognize, and they're doing things with a very different mindset or, I think, their approaches. We're going to deliver health that doesn't feel like care and I think that's a very different mindset and it's one that until we change our mindset of what it means to be a hospital or what it means to be a doctor, we're going to continue to deliver care based upon...

...that mental model that we operate with and innovation is going to be limited based upon what we think the boundaries of that mental model are. So, you know, I would say that I've seen some great things coming out of some systems around the country and I think providence is doing some really interesting things. I've seen some great stuff. I really like what Steve Glassgow is advocating forward down at Jefferson and I think he's he's a he's a big voice for change in the industry, which I think is fantastic. From a Ronda Krishnan, who is the CEO rush in Chicago, is really pushing the envelope and saying we need to think differently about healthcare as well as how we train doctors. Norm Bow Champ, who is the dean of the College of Human Medicine at Michigan State, is taking a very different approach to how he thinks about educating the next group of Clinians, and I think it's people who are very open who will change the mindset of our clinicians to say I don't need to think about being a doctor, like you know they did with the s TV shows about what it means to be an entrepreneur and a doctor and a businessperson and someone who is a scientist all the same time and do something differently. Yeah, so I would say, you know, the people who are the best, irrespective locales, are the people, I think, who are changing the rigidity from which they look at the world and our wills. It's exciting. It's exciting to hear about more people like that that are out there because we are so desperate for change. Yeah, yeah, it's a pretty broken system right now. Yeah. So, so for the for our audience that's listening, the last question I have for you is what advice do you have for them? For the entrepreneurs, I would say just is it's kind of silly to say it, but believe in what you have more than the feedback you receive. I think it's very easy for people who are in positions of these large corporations to make you feel that you're not as talented or as competent as what they are because the position they're in. But, having said in both positions I believe it's actually x harder to start something than it is to maintain something that's already operating. And so, you know, take take some comfort and recognizing that why you don't have the all the answers and you may not have the expense account to do exactly what you want. It's the energy of the entrepreneur that actually drives the innovation for the entire country and truly what made this country, you know, the economic leader that it is. It's not the corporation. Even the big companies are, whether you're talking about some of the large companies that we've mentioned, a lot of their innovation doesn't come internally. It comes from saying we're going to go buy someone who already is innovative. Absolutely. You know, I would say keep fighting to the last breath. So space and I think the best way for them to get some credibility is to find someone who believes in them. So find that one versus trying... find a lot. If you get let them be your spokesperson. Yeah, that's great advice. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with our audience today. I really appreciate it. Those that want to connect with you and the future, how do they get ahold of you? Sure you can email me at Roger. It's Rogear Dot Jansen Ja and seen at the health ECOCOM. So the word and then health and ECOCOM. Excellent. Thanks, Roger. Appreciating thanks so much for your time. Appreciate you. What's the difference between launching and commercializing a healthcare in avation? Many people will launch a new product, few will commercialize it. To learn the difference between launch and commercialization and to watch past episodes of the show, head to our video show page at Dr Roxycom. Thanks so much for watching and listening to the show. You can subscribe to the latest episodes on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcasts and spotify, or subscribe to the video episodes on our youtube channel. No matter the platform, just search coiq with Dr Roxy. Until next time, LET'S RAISE OUR COIQ.

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