Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 2 years ago

How Health System Adoption, Hiring Models & Consumer Behavior Impacts the Success of Innovations w/Roger Jansen


The healthcare system we have is incredibly complex, cumbersome and expensive, and that makes it extremely difficult to innovate within it. What are some of the barriers that innovators are running up against, and how can we mitigate them? How do we take consumer expectations and behavior into account? How does the healthcare model contribute to a lack of innovation within the system?

On this episode, I’m joined by HealthEco CEO and Co-Founder, Roger Jansen. We talk about how to overcome the execution, adoption and implementation issues in innovation. 

3 Things We Learned 

Human adoption plays a huge role in successful commercialization 

The barrier to the adoption of healthcare often isn’t whether the product is a better innovation. It’s actually more about people being willing to emotionally process change to do something differently. The consumer will be slow on the emotional side and won’t want to change to a new innovation easily, especially when it’s a transformative product, not just an enhancement of an existing solution. 

The payment model of healthcare separates it from other consumer products 

Free market principles don’t necessarily apply to healthcare, and a lot of it has to do with the payer model. Because the consumer pays only a very small portion for the services they receive, people don’t shop the way they do for other consumer products.  


Don’t talk about features, talk outcomes 

Frame up the problem as clearly as you can, don’t sell your innovation on the features. Sell very effectively on how the innovation makes life easier and better, not on how cool the technology is. 


The healthcare sector has been harmed by a culture that doesn’t support new approaches, and it doesn’t even hire with a transformative intention. This has impeded innovation and made it impossible for change to come from within the system. All disruption in our industry comes from outside the system, but those innovators run into the same barriers and challenges. In order to succeed as innovators, we have to be focused on the problem we solve, not the features of our innovations. We have to think about the adoption of our solution, both on the consumer side, and from a health system perspective. 

Welcome to CIQ and first of itskind video program about health innovators, early adoptors and influencers and their stories aboutwriting the roller coaster of healthcare innovation. I'm your host, Dr Roxy,founder of Legacy DNA marketing group, and it's time to raise our COIQ.Welcome back to the show coiq listeners. On today's episode I have Roger Jansonwith us. He is the CEO for Health Eco. He's also the chiefstrategy officer for spectrum health. Welcome to the show, Roger. Thanks forhaving me. I appreciate it, and I just left my role as chiefstrategy offered spectrum health to completely focus on health eco. Oh Wow, okay, well, that's a great entree into tell us a little bit about yourbackground and what you do. Sure, so, I my formal training ismy PhD's and clinical and neural psych and did the typical psychologist routes, sawpatients for a while on that type of thing, and I've always had apassion for innovation and for business. And how do you actually take great ideas, understand how do you not only create the great idea, that execute onit, and then how do you actually scale and bring that ideither the marketin a robust manner. So for the past nine years I've been in theministrative side, in the C suite of a health system, then thatch strategyofficer, as well as the president of our innovation or our ventures group,in the chief chairman of our innovations division. In that role of at the opportunityto kind of see great ideas both succeed as well as fall short,and sometimes the ones that you thought would be absolutely successful or the ones thatturn out to be, for some reason now the ones adopted and person andI think we're always learning about why some innovation and great ideas work and othersaren't as great as we thought they were out of the gate. Yeah,absolutely. So what what are you doing in your role as the CEO fora health ego? Yeah, so our focus right now is actually to workwith what we call the health ecosystem, because we don't believe that a lotof the innovations that happen both inside a health systems as well as at employersor even with early stage or growth stage companies, that there seems to bethis barrier between the great idea and the actual execution, adoption and implementation ofthat idea and as a result, sometimes we have amazing solutions that, forone reason or another, don't get adopted and as a result, the lifecycle of that company gets shortened and they disappear and as we see that,we're actually missing great opportunities to help patients, to do a better job at deliveringcare and to bring solutions in the market place that really should have theirvoice. And so what we're trying to do is actually work with all majorconstituents in health from venture capitalists to health systems, to payers, to employyour son and so forth, and actually create a common platform from which wecan work to solve these common problems, instead of having this very UN keynessand these one off, quote unquote sound...

...bites that creates a very noise andin confusing ecosystem, that we actually bring a rhythm, in a pattern tothat ecosystem so we can get to the best solutions in adoption of those solutionsmore readily. So that's one area. There's certainly other things that we do, but that that's an area I think relevant to your to your audience.Okay, excellent. So how would you describe the roller coaster of healthcare innovationtoday. I you know, I think it's very different inside of a system, outside of this entrepreneur versus large company. Yeah, from inside health systems,what I tend to see is that innovation departments are typically just IP departments. Or maybe a physician or someone else has an interesting idea and it's broughtto the group and they don't know how to monetize it, how to commercializeit, even how to do market analysis of how readily the idea would beadopted or now, and so innovation is really kind of a misnomer in thatrespect. And I think health systems in general, it doesn't matter who youare, where you are, are very focused on what's immediately in front ofthem and their next meeting, and so whole idea of R and d withinhealth system seems to be lost. I know health systems who are fifteen andtwenty million dollars in revenue. When you ask them, what is your rdbudget, they don't even know how to think about that and they even haveone. So I would say innovation within health systems is very difficult. Yeah, like it takes a different personality and entrepreneurial mindset to be successful there.I think within larger corporations where you know they're competing in more of a freemarket, where they have to compete against others who have equally talented engineers andstaff, and others can think differently in our forced to, because their economicsare based upon that. Yeah, systems economics. If you're sick or injured, you're going to the doctor, you're going to the hospital in your community, and the less competition we have for that and the more that one systemowns tertiary, quatinary specialty care, you know, the less innovator we haveto be around everything from payment models to deployment and of resources. So Ithink we have a long way to go to become faded inside health systems,is what we have been. Maybe outside health systems. I think one ofthe biggest gaps is the successful entrepreneur, or someone who should be a successfulentrepreneur, can't get the right audience within health systems or with the payers andothers, and there's always this prove it to me first and then you knowwe'll work with you later. In that creates a real gap and it's difficultto really allow innovation at scale to unfold when they have those real barriers infront of them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So. You know,last time you and I talked we were talking about this statistic that I cameacross, which really is kind of the foundational for all the work that wedo and really catalyst for this show that ninety five percent of innovations that arebrought to market fail to reach any adequate level of customer acceptance or profitability.So want to get your perspective. Why do you think some innovations fail andsome succeed? I think it's, you know, it's a multivariate response,right. I think on one level,... what is true innovation versus whatis, you know, something brand new versus enhancing something that's already in place. But I think what's the irony of it is I think most people adoptsolutions that make what they're already doing easier for them to do, whether that'sUber to get a cab ride or it's, you know, Hotelscom be get alast minute hotel room. It's finding a solution that makes what I alwaysthe problem I already have in front of me easier for me. So gettingpeople to ultimately change their behavior and, you know, say I want todo this differently is difficult and you're talking about a behavioral change process that Ijust don't think many of us appreciate. I'll give you one example. Weinvested in a company that did some really interesting things with measurement of bodily fluidsand it's absolutely fantastic. It does some wonderful things, but unfortunately getting physiciansto adopt how they would use that technology to measure blood loss and other issuesis really difficult because you've been doing it by sponge counted for a long timeand even when we can show an ury and improvement and even safety improvements,sometimes adoption of technology is just as in as strong as we would think becauseit just makes so much logical sense. So the biggest barrier we often faceisn't one of is it a better product or solution, it's the emotional sideof change and the emotional side of believing that it's going to be better whenthan what I'm already doing, because I'm already pretty good what I do already. So I think we have a number of issues that we go through thatare less about product and more about humans thinking and processing and emotional side thanit is about is there really something better out there? Because there's just incrediblysmart people putting incredible solutions that just don't get adopted and you sit and go, how did that network right? Right, yeah, so do you think itis the same for healthcare? You know, in the context that youjust described? Do you think it's the same for health the same complexity forhealthcare is it is for these other industries and and you know, you kindof think of just how other industries are being disrupted. Often that still orkind of require and some behavior change, which I absolutely agree with you is. Is there some other drivers in the healthcare industry, just inherent, thatmake it even more complex than if you were in other markets? I thinkso. You know, the way healthcare is paid for is is, youknow, very different than any other product and free market principles don't necessarily applyto healthcare. So I think sometimes we think that healthcare is this vastion ofyou know, it operates like every other industry, and I can tell youbecause of regulations, because of how payment is made, because of way peopleget to make decisions, because there's an esoteric level to the knowledge that's present. It isn't like buying a refrigerator and because the consumer pays only a verysmall portion of the services that they received... a typical basis. What wealso see. People don't shop or operate like they do with other consumer products. So I do think there's something unique about bringing these solutions to healthcare,but I believe the disruption probably comes from the outside, not from within theinside. I just don't see an incredible amount of motivation for health systems tochange, you know, as much as we look at them and say they'redoing the latest and greatest. If we had a time machine and we cango back to one thousand nine hundred and eighty, it really besides, maybesome decorations on the wall wouldn't feel too different than it does. Sad,sad, sad, but true. Yeah, yeah, and you know, unlikeother industries, you know, we're talking about lives that are at stakeright and not just those people over there, but our families and maybe even ourselvesone day. So there's definitely a lot more at stake. I hada head and physician entrepreneur on the show not too long ago and he wasinnovating outside of a health system, but it was something that absolutely click.Solved a problem that the health system that he was affiliated with, experienced andthey were completely opposed to it. He had to go external to the market. Yeah, launch it successfully, share it with some of their competitors andthen all of a sudden they were ready to adopt yeah, yeah, andI think that's probably more true than not true. Unfortunately, I've heard thatstory from different physicians. Actually had a call with just a physician not toolong ago, just this morning, and you know, they're feeling like theycan't be a profit in their own land and they can't get their solutions adopted. And I roxy, I really think what's going to continue to happen,as you're going to see, once you create a culture where you don't supportnew approaches and you don't approach failing as it isn't we failed, we justtried another way that maybe was in the successful as we thought. Until weget to the next level. Yeah, you really impede and you only attracta certain type of employee to that environment, and so I've always said your bestemployees are volunteers and they're going to walk at some point if they can'tdo what they want. Very much reminds me of a friend of mine who'sa an elite chef who was forced to work at a university and he couldnot express his true chef talents cooking for dormitories, and so he eventually endedup leaving and creating, you know, what I would say was a verysuccessful restaurant. Continues to operate three of them today, because he felt histalents were being locked up and limited. And I think if you get peoplewho are really good at maintenance and operations, but they think that running a hellsystem is just making what we do today better than what it was yesterday, in more efficient than it was yesterday, versus how do we transform form whatwe do? I think what you're going to get is what we havein the United States right now, and...

...incredibly blacks, incredibly cumbersome and incrediblyexpensive health system. That's actually not a system, because a system would implythat there's a process that connects things together to get an outcome. What itis is every hospital for themselves and we don't really have a healthcare system inthe United States. We have a payment system through the government, but systemsthemselves are not really employed. Sure so. So I think that, you know, you have a very unique point of view for our listeners right,because a good portion of our audience are is is really trying to sell toorganizations in the role that maybe you had previously. Right, and so youknow what? What are some strategies that you recommend and how do they howdo they how do they get in front of the right people? I havea whole bunch of other questions, but I'll just get one at the time. I'll say it's tough. It's really difficult because the way that most hellsystems operate as you're given a budget, you operate according to that budget,and that budget really says, you know, I have money in here for companyX to approach me and start a new product or a new service.I think those who have the biggest struggler are the ones are going to requirea lot of behavioral change from somebody to do something differently, someone who automatic. It's something like a sales forcecom that makes managing, you know, connectionsand customer management more easily. Are something I already have to do. Sonow just becomes a features play and a price play. But if you're comingwith something that one we don't currently do into it's going to cost me moremoney to do it in three. I don't even know if I need todo it. Anyway. You've got a really difficult road. So I thinkmy approach is always when I was you know, I always have vendors stillto this day, you know, call me in a regular basis and Ialways try to listen because I figure that I really don't know everything and Ineed to be open to different approaches. So I think finding the right csuite individual is the right way to go, and I do recommend the C suiteas much as you can, because I think everybody else is in hell. Systems. That particularly is are looking at what is their spend and isit going to be connessary with what they think it should be relative to theoutcomes are getting? The other piece that I've always found helpful is frame up. The problem is clearly as you can sell me on the features. Everybodyseems to get really feature focused, like my APP or my SLUICI. Youdo this, this, this and this, and I still walk away going butthat doesn't solve my problem. And it's really cool technology you built,but I wasn't on the streets looking for cool technology. I'm trying to figureout how does your product solved the issues that I have and I haven't hearda lot of people really sell me as effectively and how it's going to makemy life easy. You're and better. It's always about how cool would thisbe if you did this? Oh my...

...goodness, and that is that mean, that's like just business one hundred and one, right, marketing one hundredand one. I mean it's so foundational and we all know it. Imean those people that are pitching you, they know it. It's just it'sa real hot difficult habit to break. Is I think what you know.We buy so many consumer products. It's how many megabytes my computer have?How fast is my cargo? You know, how many droolers does my refrigerator have, for that matter? And we get so feature focus, but it'snot consumer product selling that most are doing, and so I think we get alittle caught in that and that that's always been something worse. Soon aswe starts talking about the features, it's not as interesting as somebody's talking aboutthe outcomes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and you know, you kind ofremind me of you know, another thing around like storytelling, which Ithink you're kind of also touching on, is you know, just because youhave a technology that's superior to what's on the market, or even if itsolves a real problem, it doesn't mean that you're going to automatically be successfulthat. I really think that storytelling ends up being really important too, andit's interesting to hear that you said that you know, most people aren't reallytelling the right story or good story. Yeah, no, I'm not.I and also I don't know if they think about adoption of their solution,because it takes so much scale to make it a real business and it takesso much internal adoption to ast you make it a real solution for any healthsystem. So you know, if you have, let's say, a thousandphysicians at Your Hospital on your product is solving, you know, that solutionfor seven of those physicians, that may or may not be enough and thatmay or may not be something that's, you know, worth your time andenergy. So, yeah, I think I haven't you know, I thinksome of the best vendors that I've dealt with make me feel like they've becomea partner and are helping me be more successful and what I'm doing versus I'mhelping them get their product into into a company. Yeah, yeah, thatmakes so much sense. So what would you say is the biggest challenge incommercializing and innovation? You know, so we're we're touching on some of that. But is it problem solution fit, problem market fit? Is it storytelling? Is it the misalignment of the payment initiatives? Is it something else orall the above? Yeah, I think there's certainly, you know, toevery question there's a simple answer and it's wrong. Right. So I thinkwhat's city to that question. I think one of the things I see isthat in this is not something that's fun, but I think sometimes the solution isahead of the market and so you know, even if you have bestx, Y and Z solution, the market might not be ready to payfor it or it might not band it, and so, you know, makinga market is really, really difficult. And commercializing, whether and if you'retrying to commercialize an asset from your health system out into the broader market, I think it be comes an issue of competence, because I don't thinkmany health systems have that competence, even...

...if they have a great product,whether it's an insurance product or it's a primary care product or what it mightbe, they don't really understand how to build a business. Their business builtfrom Hundred Years of being in that facility. Grandparents were born there, I wasborn there, everybody's born there right built in business and because nobody elsecan fix the broken bone, I'm going to come there. So now Ithink sometimes we act like these businesses of healthcare are the same as traditional youknow, for competing. It's against GM and it's just not. It isn't. We have to recognize that. So once you begin to recognize that,then you have to think about what can I do to help them either diverseby their revenue streams, repatriate margin because I can spend less of my serviceor not, or create some type of unique niche within a market that allowsthem to be successful and generate a new business from the one that they currentlydon't have or the commands. But I think one off solutions are really toughand I think things that are very episodic, in what healthcare is eternal, arealso very, very difficult. So you know, I don't have aneasy answer for how to do that because I don't think it's in there isan easy answer. So so you know, I want to ask you this question. I live in Dreamland and then I also live in reality, right, so both, both worlds. But thinking of Dreamland, if there wastwo or three things that you could change that would make innovation and healthcare easier, what would be that? What would you change inside a health system fromthat perspective, be either inside or outside? Either inside to innovate within and togo out or to be more right, for adoption for everything that's coming intothe system. Well, I think you need to start with our healthsystems. Really not for profit. And is that the right model still andin some cases that. In other cases may not, but rarely does anyonearound the globe say, if we really want to be innovative, we're goingto go look at not for profits, because it hasn't forced that economic modeland it hasn't forced that type of thinking. Yeah, it's difficult to win abasketball game when you're playing with tennis players. You need to get peoplewho understand if I want to innovate and not just maintain and be more bureaucratic, I need to bring entrepreneurial spirit and talent capability able that tended to befrowned upon within, you know, your aucracies and governments and things of thatnature cause and trouble over there, right over there, you think differently.That's not how we do things around here, you know, is Steve Job,says the crazy ones that'll change the world, except in healthcare. Soyou know, I think you've got to get some got to get some differentthinking in your business to begin with. Any other thing that people need todo from a dreamland perspective, is they need to set aside a portion oftheir budget for these steps of activities on and it can't be we're going togive it there because it's cute and fancy.

You need to do it because it'swhat's going to drive transformation, it's going to drive a future. Butthat really requires a third thing that I think most people fail to think about, which is not innovation and it's pure sense, the innovation of a businessmodel. We haven't seen a lot of systems spend time innovating their business model, but I think where you know great companies go is they innovate their businessmodel. And if you take a look at what apple is done, isapple the technology company? Are they a company that warehouses information? Are theya company of Digital Therapeutics? They continue to innovate their business model, justas on and others have done. You know, Google has nine businesses thathave a billion users a day and then they have a other hundred businesses thatmake no money. And those other businesses are all about how do they createwhat's the next billion dollar or billion user business or feed and nation to theothers. Find a healthcare system WHO's willing to take a loss on R andD and You know I'm willing to buy a great state dinner right right.It's not the mindset and be and I think if profit in executives and healthcarecan continue to be paid upon their margins, you're going to see them operating ina way that just drives margin, and margin is maybe the wrong thingfor a not for profit to be measuring itself on. So we've got awhole bunch of conundrums within healthcare that need to really get addressed. I thinkif you were to start with standardized pricing across the country, just like theyhave in Japan, where an MRI is a hundred and thirty four dollars nomatter where you go, you get pretty innovative about how you attract that talentand how you attract those consumers to versus our current model, which nobody reallycares and nobody has to compete on price. Right, right. Yeah, completely. So you touched on something earlier that I want to I don't wantto overlook, about prove it first. Right. So when health innovators are, you know, trying to get into systems that they've got to prove itfirst. So we've had some conversations previously around, you know, pilot clinicalstudies, peer reviewed studies. You know, do I have to have just acouple of pilots? Do I have to have some peer reviewed studies?How much proof do I need to have before I have enough credibility to beable to get some adoption? You know what you what's your take on that? You know, I think it depends on the type of product and solution. I mean, like if you take a look at behavioral health, whichI'm passionate about, you know, round numbers, there's Tenzero apps a yearthat are put into the APP store around behavior health or conic disease. Exactlypoint to five percent of them have done any research. So people through allscientific jargon and they have great bells and whistles, but we're actually potentially damagingour patient populations by putting apps into a market place or extremely noisy and confusingand once they try them, they Geez, I tried this and I still didn'tget better. We've actually increased their risk and there symping methology the versussimply know, saying wasn't good technology begin...

...with. So I think what youneed is you need to have some credible people who are willing to evaluate whatyour product and for me that typically means who is your board of Directors orboard of Advisors? Have they looked at this and said this is something I'mwilling to put my name in my brand behind? You know, the peoplewho the rest of the industry would say they respect, because you know,having a PhD and having done a lot of research, you know research isgreat, but research is limited in research takes time and research takes money andit's somewhat the antithesis of what entrepreneurs have. They don't have a lot of timeand I have a lot of money. So you need to be able tobalance those things with enough credibility that you're not becoming, you know,Johns Hopkins, Research to department, but you're becoming credible because the thought,the discipline, the rigor and that you are willing, once a solution isadopted, to continue to put it through the research that a help system inothers might need to ensure it's use. Uh Huh, yeah, that makessense. If if a health innovator was standing before you with, you knowwhat some of the requirements that you would have to ton seriously consider what theyhad to offer. One is in this going to sound really, really basic, but is it even worth my but a big enough population that it's goingto make a big enough difference? So, for examples, you know I've heardpeople bring ideas to me that are so esoteric and for such a smallgroup of people that, with the relative time I have to spend on theother things, yeah, it's never big enough impact. So, you know, can it make an impact for a large enough group of people to isit going to somehow do one of three things, improve my outcomes, lowermy cost or create new markets and revenue that I currently don't have? Andthen probably the other thing that's really relevant, and I haven't seen a lot ofentrepreneurs bring this to me, but is how much you willing to workwith me and you know, how flexible can you be working with me versus. Here's the way it's going to look and here's the way it's going tooperate and this is my pricing model and everything else. So I think thereneeds to be a partnership and, you know, I think bringing systems togetherto do things together is better than just selling me alone. So I've alwaysfound it helpful that save myself and three other chief strategy officers, or whoeverit might be, would have gotten together and said, let's try this.There's power and strengthen numbers. So I would recommend entrepreneurs hold of meeting,bringing the right people who you think you're going to sell to together and havethem spend two hours with you, you know, in a Chicago or alocation that's convenient, and after your solution and, if it works, youknow, pay them for their time, giving them an equity position in thiswhatever it might be. But you need to make it more than just avendor relationship out of the gate. Yeah,...

...and I think that's really important.It's a really good point. You know, some of the health innovatorsthat I work with think that they have to have everything figured out in allof the answers in order to be credible and in order to really get infront of, you know, folks like yourself and and I think that sometimesit's okay for some of those things to be somewhat glary and ambiguous. Yougot to have some substance there, but seeing it as a partnership and havingsome flexibility could could be a very viable approach. Yeah, I actually I'venever met a company or human being or anything that has it all figured out. You know, this is either so, this isn't math, or you knowtoo and two equals. For although I have a friend as a theoreticalmathematician, it tells them that's actually not accurate. I don't know how it'snot accurate as well above me, but all the time, and I'm surehe's right, I don't understand it right. Yep, I would tell you,you know, that ability to recognize that you don't have all the answersand that you're part of a solution is probably more resonates with me more thananything else. But that also gives opportunity for me to have influence on yourcompany and say here's how we might want to improve it, which makes morebrought in and therefore more likely to say I like this. Yeah, yeah, completely. So who's doing it well? You know what, are some innovatorsout there, whether they're, you know, those big beer addic systemswho have figured out a way to innovate, or whether it's some innovators out therethat either luck or or our experience and expertise, that are just doingit really well that our listeners and our audience should pay attention to. Yeah, you know what's sad about that? It's like when people ask me WHO'sa great president over the last hundred years, I struggled to jump to any answer. You know that as a negative it's just like when I think aboutyou know, maybe we've idealized the Jeffersons or the Washington's of the link much, but you know so many flaws about so many people today that it's hardto come up with someone. So No, I've gotten to know so many innovators, health system innovators throughout the country. I think a lot of my formerpeers are doing some really great things. To say that everybody, anyone,has it completely figured out and this is the model that absolutely works,I think would be probably vote. I do think some of the things thatI've been exposed to the amazons and the Google's of the world are probably morejaw dropping than people who haven't seen them are going to recognize, and they'redoing things with a very different mindset or, I think, their approaches. We'regoing to deliver health that doesn't feel like care and I think that's avery different mindset and it's one that until we change our mindset of what itmeans to be a hospital or what it means to be a doctor, we'regoing to continue to deliver care based upon...

...that mental model that we operate withand innovation is going to be limited based upon what we think the boundaries ofthat mental model are. So, you know, I would say that I'veseen some great things coming out of some systems around the country and I thinkprovidence is doing some really interesting things. I've seen some great stuff. Ireally like what Steve Glassgow is advocating forward down at Jefferson and I think he'she's a he's a big voice for change in the industry, which I thinkis fantastic. From a Ronda Krishnan, who is the CEO rush in Chicago, is really pushing the envelope and saying we need to think differently about healthcareas well as how we train doctors. Norm Bow Champ, who is thedean of the College of Human Medicine at Michigan State, is taking a verydifferent approach to how he thinks about educating the next group of Clinians, andI think it's people who are very open who will change the mindset of ourclinicians to say I don't need to think about being a doctor, like youknow they did with the s TV shows about what it means to be anentrepreneur and a doctor and a businessperson and someone who is a scientist all thesame time and do something differently. Yeah, so I would say, you know, the people who are the best, irrespective locales, are the people,I think, who are changing the rigidity from which they look at theworld and our wills. It's exciting. It's exciting to hear about more peoplelike that that are out there because we are so desperate for change. Yeah, yeah, it's a pretty broken system right now. Yeah. So,so for the for our audience that's listening, the last question I have for youis what advice do you have for them? For the entrepreneurs, Iwould say just is it's kind of silly to say it, but believe inwhat you have more than the feedback you receive. I think it's very easyfor people who are in positions of these large corporations to make you feel thatyou're not as talented or as competent as what they are because the position they'rein. But, having said in both positions I believe it's actually x harderto start something than it is to maintain something that's already operating. And so, you know, take take some comfort and recognizing that why you don't havethe all the answers and you may not have the expense account to do exactlywhat you want. It's the energy of the entrepreneur that actually drives the innovationfor the entire country and truly what made this country, you know, theeconomic leader that it is. It's not the corporation. Even the big companiesare, whether you're talking about some of the large companies that we've mentioned,a lot of their innovation doesn't come internally. It comes from saying we're going togo buy someone who already is innovative. Absolutely. You know, I wouldsay keep fighting to the last breath. So space and I think the bestway for them to get some credibility is to find someone who believes inthem. So find that one versus trying... find a lot. If youget let them be your spokesperson. Yeah, that's great advice. So thank youso much for sharing your wisdom with our audience today. I really appreciateit. Those that want to connect with you and the future, how dothey get ahold of you? Sure you can email me at Roger. It'sRogear Dot Jansen Ja and seen at the health ECOCOM. So the word andthen health and ECOCOM. Excellent. Thanks, Roger. Appreciating thanks so much foryour time. Appreciate you. What's the difference between launching and commercializing ahealthcare in avation? Many people will launch a new product, few will commercializeit. To learn the difference between launch and commercialization and to watch past episodesof the show, head to our video show page at Dr Roxycom. Thanksso much for watching and listening to the show. You can subscribe to thelatest episodes on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcasts and spotify, or subscribeto the video episodes on our youtube channel. No matter the platform, just searchcoiq with Dr Roxy. Until next time, LET'S RAISE OUR COIQ.

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