Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 2 years ago

How Health System Adoption, Hiring Models & Consumer Behavior Impacts the Success of Innovations w/Roger Jansen


The healthcare system we have is incredibly complex, cumbersome and expensive, and that makes it extremely difficult to innovate within it. What are some of the barriers that innovators are running up against, and how can we mitigate them? How do we take consumer expectations and behavior into account? How does the healthcare model contribute to a lack of innovation within the system?

On this episode, I’m joined by HealthEco CEO and Co-Founder, Roger Jansen. We talk about how to overcome the execution, adoption and implementation issues in innovation. 

3 Things We Learned 

Human adoption plays a huge role in successful commercialization 

The barrier to the adoption of healthcare often isn’t whether the product is a better innovation. It’s actually more about people being willing to emotionally process change to do something differently. The consumer will be slow on the emotional side and won’t want to change to a new innovation easily, especially when it’s a transformative product, not just an enhancement of an existing solution. 

The payment model of healthcare separates it from other consumer products 

Free market principles don’t necessarily apply to healthcare, and a lot of it has to do with the payer model. Because the consumer pays only a very small portion for the services they receive, people don’t shop the way they do for other consumer products.  


Don’t talk about features, talk outcomes 

Frame up the problem as clearly as you can, don’t sell your innovation on the features. Sell very effectively on how the innovation makes life easier and better, not on how cool the technology is. 


The healthcare sector has been harmed by a culture that doesn’t support new approaches, and it doesn’t even hire with a transformative intention. This has impeded innovation and made it impossible for change to come from within the system. All disruption in our industry comes from outside the system, but those innovators run into the same barriers and challenges. In order to succeed as innovators, we have to be focused on the problem we solve, not the features of our innovations. We have to think about the adoption of our solution, both on the consumer side, and from a health system perspective. 

Welcome to Coiq at first of its kindvideo program about health, innovators earlier doctors and influencers, andthey are stories about writing the roller poaster of health care andovation. I'm your host Dotor Roxy, founder of Legacy, DNA marketing groupand it's time to raise our COIQ welcome back to the show coiq listenerson today's episode. I Have Roger Janson with us. He is the CEO for health. EcoHe's also the chief strategy officer for spectrum health. Welcome to theshow Roger thanks for having me appreciate it, and I just left my roleas Chee Strategy. OFFOR. It spectrum health o completely focus on Eltico. OhWow, okay! Well, that's a great entree into tell us little bit about yourbackground and what you do sure. So I my formal training is my PhDs andclinical and Nauropsych, and did the typical psychologist rout salt patientsfor a while and that type of thing and we've always had a passion forinnovation and for business. And how do you actually take great ideasunderstand? How do you nat only create the great idea but execute on it, andthen how do you actually scale and bring that idea to the market in arobust manner? So, for the past nine years I've been in the administrativeside in the C Suede of a health system, then the Che Strategy Officer, as wellas the president of our innovation or our venturs group and the chiefChairman of our innovations, division in that role, that the opportunity tokind of see great ideas, both succeed as well as fals short and sometimes theones that you thought would be absolutely successful or the ones thatturn out to be for some reason, not the ones adopted and Erso, and I thinkwe're always learning about why some innovation and great ideas, work andothers aren't as great as we thought they were out of the gate. Yeah Yeah.Absolutely! So what? What are you doing in your role as the CEO for health, EcoYeah? So our focus right now was actually to work with what we call thehealth ecosystem, because we don't believe that a lot of the innovationsthat happen both inside of healt systems, as well as at employers oreven with early stage or Gros states companies that there seems to be thisbarrier between the great idea and the actual execution, adoption andimplementation of that idea. And as a result, sometimes we have amazingsolutions that, for one reason or another don't get adopted and as aresult, the lifecycleof that company gets shortened and they disappear andas we see that we're actually missing great opportunities to help patients todo a better job of deliveriy care and to bring solutions in the marketplace.That really should have their voice. And so we're trying to do is actuallywork with all major constituents in health, from venture capitalist tohealth systems, to payers to employer soon and so forth, and actually createa common platform from which we can work to solve these common problems.Instead of having this very chunkiness,...

...and these one off quote: Unquote SoundLights. That creates a very noise and in confusing ecosystem that we actbring a rhythm in a pattern to that ecosystem. So we can get to the bestsolutions in adaption of those solutions. More redolint, sus one area,there's certainly other things that we do with that thatscenary. I thinkrelevent to your to your iens, okay, excellent. So how would you describe the roller coaster of healthcareinnovation today? You know, I think it's very differentinside of a system outside of this entrepreneur versus large company ythin from inside health systems. What I tend to see is that innovationdepartments are typically just Ip departments or maybe a physician orsomeone else has an interesting idea and it's brought to the group and theydon't know how to monetize it, how to commercialize it even how to do marketanalysis of how readily the idea would be adopted or no, and so innovation isreally kind of a misnomer. In that respect- and I I think health systemsin general- it doesn't matter who you are where you are- are very focused onn, what's immediately in front of them and their next meeting and so oll ideaof rnd within health systems seems to be lost. I know health systems who arefifteen twenty billion dollar in revenue, and when you ask them what isYour RMD budget? They don't even know how to think about that or theyn't evenhave one. So I would say, innovation within health systems is very difficult.A hit coul take a different personality, an entrepreneurial mindset to besuccessful there. I think within larger corporations, where you know they'recompeting in more of a free market where they have to compete againstothers who have equally talented engineers and staff and others canthink differently and are forced to because their economics are based uponthat yeah that systems economics if you're, sick or injured you're going tothe doctor you're going to the hospial in your community and the lesscompetition we have for that and the more that one system owns torsaryQuatinyeur, specialty care. You know the less innovatede we have to bearound everything from paying thent models to deployment of resources. So Ithink we have a long way to go to becfated inside health systems is whatwe have been, maybe outside health systems. A think one of the biggestgaps is the successful entrepreneur or someone who should be a successfulentrepreneur, can't get the right audience within health systems or withthe paiers and others, and there's always this prove it to me first andthen you know well work with you later and that creates a real gap and it'sdifficult to really allow innovation at scale to unfold when they have thoseroad barriers in front of them. Yeah Yeah. Absolutely so. You know last timeyou- and I talked were talking about this statistic that I came across,which really is kind of the foundational for all the work that wedo in really catalyst, for this show that ninety five percent of innovationsthat are brought to market failed to reach any adequate level of customeracceptance or profitability so whant. To get your perspective, why do youthink some innovations fail and some succeen? I think it's you know it's amultivaried response right. I think on... level it is what is true innovationversus what is you know, something brand new versus enhancing somethingthat's already in place, but I think what's the Irona of it is, I think mostpeople adopt solutions that make what they're already doing easier for themto do, whether that's over to get a cab ride or it's you know: hotels, tcomdy,the last minute hotel room, it's finding a solution that makes what Ialways the problem. I already happened. I front of me easier for me, so gettingpeople the ultimately change their behavior, and you don't say I want todo this differently- is difficult and you're talking about a behavioralchange process that I just don't think many of us appreciate I'll, give youone example: We invested in a company. That's did some really interesting things withmeasuremen of bodily fluids and it's absolutely fantastic. It does somewonderful things, but unfortunately getting physicians to adopt how theywould use that technology to measure blood loss and other issues is really difficult because e'vebeen doing it by Spongecounte for a long time and even when we can show inrly and improvement and even safety improvements. Sometimes adoption oftechnology is just asn't as strong as we would think, because it just makesso much logical sense, so the biggest barrier we often face isn't one tovisit a better product or solution. It's the emotional side of change andthe emotional side of believing that it's going to be better than what I'malready doing, because I'm already pretty good what I do already. So Ithink we have a number of issues that we go through, that are less aboutproduct more about humans, thinking and processing and emotional side than itis about. Is there really something better out there, because theyre, justjust incredibly smart people, putting incredible solutions that just don'tget adopted and you sit and go? How did that network right right, yeah? So doyou think it is the same for healthcare? You know in the context that you justdescribed, do you think it's the same for health? The same complexity forhealthcare is, it is for these other industries and- and you know, you kindof think of just how other industries are being disruptedoften than still orkind of require ind some behavior change, which I absolutely agree withyou- Is there some other drivers in thehealthcare industry just inherent that make it even more complex than if youwere in other markets? I think so. You know the way health care is paid for isyou know very different than any other product. An free market principlesdon't necessarily apply to healthcare, so I think sometimes we think that healthcare is this. Vastion of you know it operates like every otherindustry, and I can tell you because of regulations because of how paynent ismade because of way people get to make decisions because there's an esotericlevel to acknowledge. That's present, it isn't like buying a refrigerator andbecause the consumer pays only a very...

...small portion of the services that theyreceive in a typical basis. What we also see people don't shop or operate like theydo with other consumer products. So do you think, there's something uniqueabout bringing these solutions to health care, but I believe the disruption probably comesfrom the outside, not from within the inside. I just don't see an incredibleamount of motivation for health systems to change. You know as much as we look at them and say they're doing the latest andgreatest. If we had a time Mascinan, we can go BA, one thousand nine hundredand eighty Ih really besides. Maybe some decorations on the wall wouldn'tfeel too different than it does sad, bad sad but true, yeah yeah andyou know, unlike other industries, you know we're talking about lives that areat stake right and pe are not just those people over the there, but ourfamilies, and maybe even ourselves one day so there's definitely a lot more atstake. I had a had an physician entrepreneur on theshow not too long ago and he was innovating outside of the health system,but it Wa something that absolutely Clik solved a problem that the healthsystem that he was affiliated with experienced and they were completelyopposed to it. He had to go external to the market launch, it successfullyshare it with some of their competitors and then all of a sudden they wereready to adopt yeah yeah and I think, that's probably more true than not true.Unfortunately, I've heard that story from different physicians actually hada call with just a physician not too long ago just this morning, and youknow they're feeling like they can't be a prophet in their own land and theycan't get their solutions adopted, and I roxy, I really think, what's going tocontinue to happen as you're going to see once you create a culture where youdon't support new approaches and you don't approach failing as it isn't, wefaild we just tried another way that maybe wasn't t e successfulas. Wethought until we get to the next level yeah, you really impede, and you only attracta certain type of employee to that environment. I, and so I've always saidyour best. Employees are volunteers and they're going to walk at some point ifthey can't do what they want. Very much reminds me of a friend of mine who's, aan elite chef who was forced to work at a university, and he could not expresshis true cheft talents cooking for Dormitorye, and so he eventually ended up, leavingand creating. You know what I would say was a very successful. Restaurantcontinues to operate three of them today because he felt his talents forbeing locked up and limited, and I think if you get people who are reallygood at maintenance and operations, but they think that running a health systemis just making what we do today better than what it was yesterday and moreefficient than it was yesterday versus. How do we transform what we do? I thinkwhat you're going to get is what we...

...have in the United States right now andincredibly Blax, incredibly cumbersome and incredibly expensive health system.That's actually not a system, because a system would imply that there's aprocess that connects things together to get nowcome. What it is is everyhospital for themselves and we don't really have a health care system in theUnited States. We have a payment system through the government, but systemsthemselves are not really imploy so so so I think that you know you have avery unique point of view for our listeners right, because a good portion of our audience ar isreally trying to sell to organizations and the role that maybe you hadpreviously right, and so you know what what are some strategies that yourecommend and how do they? How do they? How dothey get in in front of the right people? I have a whole bunch of other questions,but I'll just go by the time. So it's tough. It's really difficult becausethe way that most health systems operate is you're, given a budget andyou operate according to that budget and that budget rally says you know, Ihave money in here for company X to approach me and start a new product ora new service. I think those who ave the biggest struggler are the ones whoare going to require a lot of behavioral change from somebody to dosomething differently. Someone who automates something like a salesforcecom that makes managing you, know, connections and customer managementmore easily. Are Something y already have to do so now I just becomes afeatures play and a priceplay, but if you're coming with something that oneyou don't currently do into it's going to cost me more money to do it. IndThree, I don't even know if I need to do it anyway. You've got a really difficult road, soI think my approach is always when I was you know. I always havevendors still to the day. You know call me a regular basis and I always try tolisten, because I figure that I really don't know everything and I need to beopen to different approaches. So I think finding the right C sweteindividual is the right way to go, and I do recommend the Casuete as much asyou can, because I think everybody elseis in health systems thatparticularly, are looking at what is their spend and is it going to benescerrate with what they think it should be relative to the outcomes orgetting the other piece that I've always foundhelpful is frame up. The problem is clearly, as you can would sell me onthe features everybody seems to get really feature focused like my apper.My solution e throug this this this and this and I still walk away going. Butthat doesn't solve my problem and it's really cool technology you built, but Iwasn't on the streets. Looking for cool technology, I'm trying to figure out.How does your product solve the issues that I have, and I haven't heard a lotof people really sell me as effectively and how it's going to make my lifeeasier and better? It's always about... cool would this be? If you did this,Oh, my goodness, and that is I mean that's like just business une, a oneright, marketing hundred an one I mean it's so foundational an and we all knowit. I mean those people that are pitching you. They know it. It's justit's a real hard, difficult habit to break ecase. I think w. You know we buysome many consumer products, it's how many megabikes is my computer have. Howfast is my cargo? You know how many toolers dis my refrigerator have forthat matter and we get so feature focused, but it's not consumer productselling that most yaure doing, and so I think we get a little caught in thatand that that's always been something whereas Soonizen we start talking aboutthe feature s, it's not as interesting as somebody's talking about theoutcomes. Yeah yeah absolutely- and you know you kind of remind me of you- knowan another thing around like storytelling, which I think you're kindof also touching on is you know just because you have a technology, that'ssuperior to what's on the market or even if it solves a real problem, itdoesn't mean that you're going to automatically be successful th. Ireally think that storytelling ends up being really important to, and it'sinteresting to hear that you said that you know most people aren't reallytelling the right story or good story yeah. No, I'M NOT! I an also. I don't know if they thinkabout adoption of their solution, because it takes so much scale to makeit a real business and it takes so much internal adoption to actually make it areal solution for any health system. So you know, if you have, let's say athousand Physitians hat your hospital and your product is solving. You knowthat solution for seven Ovr, those physicians that mayor may not be enough,and that may or may not be something. That's you know worth your time andenergy so wea. I think I haven't you know. I think some of the best vendorsthat I've dealt with make me feel like Theye, become apartner and ar helping me be more successful in what I'm doing versus I'm,helping them get their product into Eento, a company Yeah Yeah. That makesso much sense. So what would you say is the biggest challenge?incommercializing an innovation. You know so we're touching on some of that.But is it problem solution FIT PROBLEM MARKET FIT? Is it story telling? Is itthe misalignment of the payment initiatives? Is it something else orall the above yeah? I think theresis? Certainly you know to every question asa simple answer and it's wrong right. So definiteaity to that question. Ithink one of the things I see is that in this is not something that's fine,but I think sometimes the solutions ahead of the market, and so you know,even if you have best xy ANZ solution, the market might not be ready to payfor it or it might not avand it, and so you know making a market is reallyreally difficult and commercializing. Whether and if you're trying tocommercialize an asset from your health system out into the broader market, Ithink it becomes an issue of confidence because I don't think many healthsystems have that conpidence, even if...

...they have a great product, whether it'san insurance product or it's a primary care product or what it might be. Theydon't really understand how to build a business, therare bisie built fromHundred Years of being in that facility, grandparents were born there. I wasborn there, everybody's born there hav Bilton business and because nobody elsecan fix the broken bone. I'm going to come there. So when I sometimes we actlike these businesses of health care are the same as traditional. You knowfor competing its against GM and it's just not it isn't. We have to recognizethat so once you begin to recognize that, then you have to think about whatcan I do to help them? Either diverse fither revenue streams repatriot marginbecause it can spend less if my service or not or create some type of uniqueNisshe within a market that allows them to be successful and generate newbusiness from the one that they currentthey don't have or they commatl.But I think one off solutions are really tough and I think things thatare very episotic in what health care is eternal are also very, verydifficult. So you know I don't have an Ese answer forhotto people. Do that because I don't think it's in. There is an easy answer.So so you know I want to ask you this question. I live in Dreamland and then I alsolive in reality right, so both both worlds but thinking of Dreamland. Ifthere was two or three things that you could change, that would makeinnovation and healthcare easier. What would be what would you change inside a health system from thatperspective, be either inside or outside either inside, to innovatewithin and to go out or to be more right for adoption for everythingthat's coming into the system? Well, I think you need to start with our healthsystems really not for profit and is that the right model still andsome cases in other cases may not, but rarely does anyone around the globe sayif we really want to be Innovativ, we're going to be look at not forprofets, because it hasn't forced that economic model and it hasn't forcedthat type of thinking yeah it's difficult to win a basketball game.When you are playing with tennis players, you need to get people whounderstand. If I want to innovate and not just maintain and be morepureacratic, I need to bring ou to pretty irl spirit and tail andcapabilities able that tended to be frowned upon within you know,bureaucracies and governments and things of that nature. Pausin travelover there right ole over there. You think differently. That's not how we dothings around here. You know I stuve job says the crazy ones. At'll changethe world except in healthcare. You know I think you've got to get somegot to get some different thinking in your business. To begin with, I thinkthe other thing that people need to do from a dreamland perspective is theyneed to set aside a portion of their budget for these sexs of activities,and it can't be we're going to give it there, because it's cute and fancy youneed to do it because it's what's going... drive transformation, it's going todrive the future, but that really requires a third thingthat I think most people fail to think about which is not innovation in itsPur sense, the innovation of a business model. We haven't seen a lot of systemsspend time innovating their business model. I think where you know greatcompanies go as they innovate their business model and if you take a lookat what happle is done, is apple O Technology Company? Are they a company that wearhouses information?Are they a company of Digital Therapeutics? They continue to innovate,their business model, just asn, others have done. You know. Google has ninebusinesses that have a billion users a day, and then they have a other hundredbusinesses that make no money and those other businesses are all about. How dothey create? What's the next billion dollar or billion user business orFigen nation to the others, find a healthcare system who's willing to takethe loss on RND? And you know I'm willing to buy a great stak dinnerright right is not the mindset and- and I think, ifprofit in executives and healthcare can continue to be paid upon their margins,you're going to see them operating in a way that just drives margin and marginis maybe the wrong thing for a not for profit to be measuring itself on. Sowe've got a whole bunch of connundrums within health care that need to reallyget addressed. I think, if you were to start with standardized pricing acrossthe country just like they have in Japan, where an MRI is a hundred andthirty fourt dollars. No matter where you go, you get pretty innovative abouthow you attract that talent and how you attract those consumerso versus ourcurrent model, which nobody really cares, and nobody ASE to compute onprice right right, yeah completely, so you touched on something earlier that I want to. I don't want tooverlook about prove it first right. So when health innovators are, you knowtrying to get into systems that they've got to prove it first. Sowe've had some conversations previously around. You know Pilot Clinical Studies, Purreviewed studies. You know. Do I have to have just a couple of pilots. Do Ihave to have some pure review studies? How much proof do I need to have beforeI have enough credibility to be able to get some adoption? You know what youwhat' your take on that you know. I think it depends on the the type ofprotand solution. I mean like if you take a look at behavior health, whichI'm passionate about you know round numbers there's tenhsandaps a year that are put into the appstore around behavior health orconic disease, exactly point oooh, two five percent of them have done anyresearch, so people throw out scientific jargon and they have greatbells and whistles, but we're actually potentially damaging our patientpopulations by putting apps into a marketplace are extremely noisy andconfusing, and once they tryd them, they say geese. I tried this and Istill didn't get tbetter we've actually increased their risk and ther Soptinmetology, an the persus know saying:...

Wasn't good technology begin with, so Ithink what you need is you need to have some credible people who are willing toevaluate your product and for me, that typically means whois. Report ofdirectors are board of Advisors. Have they looked at this and said? This issomething I'm willing to put my name wit, my brand behind and ar the peoplewho the rest of the industry would say they respect, because you know having aPhD and having done a lot of research. You know research is great, butresearch is limited in research takes time and research takes money and issomewhat the antithesis of what int entrepreneurs have they don't have alot of time, then a a lot of money. So you need to be able to baance thosethings with enough credibility that you're not becoming. You Know JohnsHopskins Research Department, but you're becoming credible, because thethought the disciplined the rigor and that you are willing, once thosesolutionis adopted, to continue to put it through the research that a healthsystem and others might need to ensure ince use mm yeah. That makes sense if a health innovator was standingbefore you what'. You know what some of the requirements that you would have to seriously consider what they had to offer. One is, and this going to sound, reallyreally basic, but is it even worth my a big enough population that it's goingto make a big enough difference? So, for example, you know I've heard peoplebring ideas to me that are so esotericand for such a small group ofpeople that, with the relative time I have to spend on the other things yeah,it's Nevar, big enough impact, so you know, can it make an impact for a largeenough group of people to? Is it going to somehow do one or three things improve myoutcomes, lower my cost or create new markets and revenue that I currentlydon't have and then probably the other thing? That's really relevant and Ihaven't seen a lot of entrapeers bring this to me, but is how much are youwilling to work with me, and you know how flexible can you be working with meversus here's? The way it's going to look and here's tha way it's going tooperate, and this is m my pricing model and everything else. So I think thereneeds to be a partnership, and you know I think, bringing systemstogether to do things together is better than just selling me alone. SoI've always found it helpful that save myself and three other Chie StrategyOfficers or whoever it might be would have gotten together and said: Let'stry this there's power and strength in numbers,so I would recommend entrepreneurs hold a meeting, bringing the right peoplewho you think a're going to sell to together and have them spend two hourswith you. You know in a Chicago or a location, that's convenient in Oer,your solution, and if it works, you know pay them for their time. Giv theman equity positionn, this whatever it might be, but you need to make it morethan just a vendour relationship out of...

...the gate, Yeah Yeah and I think that'sreally important. It's a really good point. You know some of the healthinnovators that I work with think that they have to have everything figuredout in all of the answers in order to be credible in order to really get infront of you know, folks, like yourself and and and I think that sometimes it'sokay for some of those things to be somewhat grarry and ambiguous. You gotto have some substance there, but seeing it as a partnership and havingsome flexibility o could be a very viable proc yeah. I actually I've nevermet a company or a human being or anything that has at all figured out.You know she me either GT, so this isn't math or you know two and Tweeweekels. Four, although I have a friend, is a theoretical mathematician andtells me that's actually not accurate. I don't know how it's that accris wellabove me, but rt all the time and I'm sure he's right. I don't understand itrihyeah. I would tell you you know that ability to re recognizethat you don't have all the answers and that you're part of a solution isprobably more resonates with me more than anythingelse, but that also gives opportunity for me to have influence on yourcompany and say here's how we might want to improve it, which makes me morebought in and theyrefore more likely to say I, like this yeah yeah completelyso who's doing it. Well, you know what are some innovators outthere, whether they're, you know those big buradic systems who have figuredout a way to innovate, or whether it's some innovators out there, that either luck or or our experience and expertise thatare just doing it really well that our listeners and our audience should payattention to yeah. You know, what's sad about that. It's like when people askme who's a great president. Over the last hundred years I startedi ithjumped any answer, and I mean that as a negative. It'sjust like when I think about you know: Maybe we've idealized the Jeffersons orthe Washingtons of th link much, but you know so many flaws about so manypeople today, it's hard to come up with someone, so no I've gotten to know somany innovators health system, intevrators throughout the country. Ithink a lot of my former peers are doing some really great things to saythat everybody anyone has it completely figured out, and this is the model thatabsolutely works, I think, would be probably bote. I do think some of thethings that I'de been exposed to the Amazons and the googles of the worldare probably more jawdropping than people who haven't seen them or goingto recognize and they're doing things with a very different mindset, or Ithink their approaches were going to deliver health. That doesn't feel likecare and I think that's a very different mindset and it's one thatuntil we change our mindset of what it means to be a hospital or wit, means tobe a doctor. We're going to continue to...

Delivera care based on that mentalmodel that we operate with, and innovation is going to be limited basedupon what we think the boundaries of that metal model are. So you know, Iwould say that I've seen some great things coming out of some systemsaround the country, and I think providence is doing some reallyinteresting things. I've seen some great stuff. I really like what SteveGlasgow is advocating forward down at Jefferson, and I think he's Nice h's ahe's, a big voice for change in the industry, which I think is fantasticyeah wrone Chrishman, who is the CEO rush in Chicago, is really pushing theenvelope and saying we need to think differently about health care. A wellas how woul train doctors norm. Boushamp, who is the Dean in theCollege of Human Medicine at Michigan State, is taking a very differentapproach to how he thinks about educating the next group of pomitions,and, I think, is riht people who are very open. Who will change the mindsetof Rour clinish is to say I don't need to think about being a doptor like youknow they did with th S. TV shows about what it means to be anentrepreneur and a doctor and a business person and someone who is ascientist all at the same time and do something differently. So I would sayyou know. The people who are the best irrespective locals are the people. Ithink who are changing the rigidity from which they look at the world andar won ossibly itexciting. It 's exciting, to hearabout more people like that that are out there, because we are so desperatefor change. Yeah Yeah, it's a pretty broal consystemt right now, yeah yea,so so for the for our audience, that's listening! The last question t I havefor you is what advice do you have for them for the entrepreneurs, I would say just it's kind of silly to say it but believe in what you have more than thefeedback you receive. I think it's very easy for people whoare in positions of these large corporations to make you feel thatyou're, not as talented or as competent as what they are, because the positionthey're in but having sad in both positions. I believe it's actuallytwenty x harder to start something. Then it is to maintain something that'salready operating, and so you know take take some comfort in recognizing thatWhil, you don't have the all the answers and you may not have theexpense account to do exactly what you want i's The energy of the entrepreneurthat actually drives the innovation for the entire country and truly what made this country. You know the economicleader that it is it's not the corporation. Even the big companies arewhether you're talking about some of the large companies that we'vementioned a lot of their innovation doesn't come internally. It comes fromsaying we're OINGTA go by someone who already is innovative. Absolutely youknow, I would say, keep fighting to the lastbreath so speak and I think the best way for them to get some credibility isto find someone who believes in then.

So find that one versus trying to finda lot and if you get N, let them be your spoks person yeah, that's greatadvice. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with our audiencetoday. I really appreciate it theios that want to connect with you in thefuture. How do they get a hold of you sure you can email me at Roger S, R,Oger, dot, Janson Ja, N Sen at the health ECOCOM, so the word the and thenhealth and ECOCOM excellent thanks, Foager Appreciatin, take so much fortime to appreciate you. What's the difference between watchingand commercializing a health care novation many people will watch a newproduct. Few will commercialize it to learn the difference between watchand commercialization and to watch past episodes of the show head to our videoshow page at Dr Roxycom. Thank so much for watching and listening to the showyou can subscribe to the latest episodes on your favorite podcast, APPlike apple podcasts and spotify, or subscribe to the video episodes on ourYoutube Channel, no matter the platform just search Coiq with Dr Roxey untilnext time. LET'S RAISE OUR COIQ.

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