Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 76 · 11 months ago

One critical thing you need to increase adoption w/ Gunter Wessels


The pandemic has changed the way we all do business - our tried and true methods have been tested and found to be lacking in this new digital environment.

But what’s a company to do? How are you supposed to be able to commercialize or sell your product when you can’t even meet with your prospects?

It’s enough to send your blood pressure soaring and the muscles in your neck twitching - if you don’t know the secret sauce.

So, take a deep breath and give a listen to what Gunter Wessels, Co-founder of LiquidSmarts, has to say about value-based selling, marketing, and communication in a digital environment.

Gunter uses humor and candor to dive into the psychology of value-based digital business management, and then shows our viewers exactly how it’s done.

Here are the show highlights:

  • Why you don’t have to conduct in-person business to make an impact (3:44)
  • Building relationships in a digital environment (6:03)
  • Understanding the essence of value-based selling (10:04)
  • Technology may be implicit, but it’s not the whole story (12:59)
  • How adoption of an innovation is only constrained by the relevance of your communication (18:23)
  • It’s more valuable to be a customer expert instead of a product expert (32:43)

Guest Bio

Gunter Wessels is the Co-Founder and Practice General Manager of LiquidSmarts, a company that reduces miscommunication, misalignment of resources, and dis-coordination of action to increase engagement and sales volume.

His decades-long career in sales and business diagnostics and innovation has evolved into a strategy that uses the latest micro-learning approaches to value-based business solutions.

Gunter received his BS in Biology and MBA in Marketing Management from the University of California, Riverside, and Ph.D. in Management from the University of Arizona.

If you’d like to reach out to Gunter, you can email him at or reach out to him on his website at

You're listening to health innovators, apodcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adopters who are shapingthe future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back healthinnovators. On today's episode I have Dr Gunder vessels with me. Heis the founder of liquid smarts. Welcome to the show. Thanks for Roxy, great to be here and thanks everybody for listening. Yeah, so Iam really excited about this conversation today because we share so many similar passions thatI think that this is going to be a very rich conversation about commercialization.So, before we get into the nuts and bolts of things, just giveour listeners a little bit of information about your background and what you do.I started off as a sales rep in healthcare. Is Only the industry I'vebeen in one thousand nine hundred and ninety two, which seems like yesterday,but it's being a longer and longer time free day that goes by. I'vebeen a consultant, beginning in healthcare economics and then in commercialization, since twothousand and four and do this worldwide and so forth, and were our aimis to help our clients be relevant in today's healthcare environment. And so that'swhat liquid smarts is about. Making the know how that exists out there portable, fluid and able to be put into whatever container you need it. Soliquid smarts, how long have you had the company? We spun off outof another firm in July of two thousand and seventeen. So that also seemslike yesterday, but it's getting to be a little bit further in history everyday. So how has your business, how is your business changed since thepandemic? Wow. So, yeah, during during the beginning of last year, around this time, I was having a great time. I was Iwas getting ready to go on a ski trip in the steamboat and everything seemedour right. We're selling some new business and so forth. I got backfrom my ski trip in my entire year's production disappeared. So we had norevenue and no so that's faithful. It felt awesome. I had so therewas like do PPP do all that sort of stuff. We didn't do it. Yeah, you know, I've been successful enough and we pivoted hard.We started giving our clients access to skills that they needed to survive in thethe distant selling world put together as a programm or two, did some webinarsand so on, and then started training our clients and perspective clients on howto be better distance sellers. We did that from May through. It's currentlygoing on right now. We did eight global programs and we've done about fiftynational programs in addition to that, fullblown training sessions to teach sales people howto sell in a digital environment, multiple media, text, email, phone, conference call, video call and all that stuff, with a real strongeye towards how to influence, and that created for us a little bit ofsustaining revenue. We were limping along, Yep, in January. So it'sFebruary five. In January we sold and closed annual run rate business that wasbigger than the year priors amount of business and we're set to double that thismonth. So we're going from a year of famine to a explosive level ofgrowth and I don't think we've even tapped but like thirty percent of our runwaythis year. So yeah, yeah, it's COVID. I've had a prettyI've had a talent issue. I need talent. Yeah, so in myown is pretty poor. So you got to get it something. You know, it's interesting because it's been like this...

...mass, the opposite of mass exodustowards digital communications for healthcare. What I find is so fascinating as you've got, you know, all of these other industries, I think, that havebeen doing distance selling for yawns, right, and healthcare as a whole was justso reliant on trade shows and facetoface encounters and it's been like wait,what, how the heck do we do this? And really thinking their entireyou know, marketing and sales and and kind of what you're saying. Allof that money that these companies had allocated to travel and trade shows, Isee them investing more and sales and marketing. Yeah, and they should. Yeah, look, I started out what so my sales training in one thousandnine hundred and ninety t two at a commission only job. Was My thebusiness owner at this little distributor ship handing me at Thomas Guide, and ifyou know what a Thomas Guide is, you're you're okay with me. Thelittle maps and then circled on the pages where the hospitals were and he saidgo here, right, right, that was it. That was it mightas well hand you a phone book. And he did. He's like,if you can't find him, here's some quarters. Call in the lobby.Right glass receptions with the phone number is calling the lobby, see if youcan get in. It was all just burning shoe leather. Correct, incrediblyinefficient, incredibly inefficient, credibly costly, and we have this obsession. Right. It's great to have a relationship and you need to breathe the same airfrom time to time, but to get the business done, that's maybe fiveto ten percent of it. The rest of it we're sitting in our officesanyway. But we have this fictive notion that you know, if I getout there it's going to be better. I'm able to do eighteen different callsa day now. I reserve my free time between midnight and four am,so I able to put a few extra hours of work in. But I'mable to do eighteen client facing visits in a day and I need to becauseof the growth were facing. Right, we can get so much more donethis way and deliver higher quality of work because I'm not spending the time intraffic and listening to talk radio. Yeah, so, so you know, Ihave a client that comes to mine where I kind of had a verysimilar conversation and trying to create that reality picture for them of how many visitsdoes your air average sales wrap it get to see facetoface when you're out onthe road, and it was about six, and you think about how that canbe multiplied with digital communications so exponentially. But what would what I want towhat I want to kind of get at here is how many people areyou coming across? Because I know I am that kind of can't wait toget back to the good old days with trade shows and conferences again, andkind of almost thinking of like, okay, fine, you know, tell mewhat I need to do in this temporary moment around the pandemic before Iget back to my old ways of selling and doing business. Everybody. Ican't wait to get back out there. Three years ago I did two hundredand fortyzero miles in the air, right, you're before. The year after thatI was doing about a hundred and Eighty Tho, the airlines loved meand I had status. You know, I haven't flown since last years.The longest I haven't flown since like high school. Yeah, and that wasn'tthat wasn't recent, and I love it? Yeah, I love it. Whenyou do fly now it's actually for you know, for when you dofly again, it will be for a vacation, for personal time, notnecessarily for work. I mean the I remember just being stuck in airports,you know, late at night, walking around, and now it was asmiserable and it made it ages you.

But everybody's got this again, fictivenotion that to influence I've got to be in breathing the same air. It'sexpensive for both parties. The average cost for a salesperson to be in frontof a client cost the company in excess of five hundred dollars. That's howmuch she's spent there. I ask sales people to tell me what value didthey get for that visit and can they quantified? And is it near fivehundred dollars? Is it anywhere near five hundred? Because what did you dothere? To make a zoom call doesn't cost you as much and therefore thethe progress you can make. US hire and people can fit you in.It's not as long, it's not as it's not as expensive. Well,they're spending five hundred dollars to fly across town to hand someone. They areawful brochure. Oh like well, that's the other problem. You know,wow, brochures. Getting a visit from a salesperson, unfortunately, historically waslike getting a visitor who brought their own garbage and said, hey, here, you throw this away. I got too many of them. Put itin your recycling bend. You know, you charged by the pound for thistrash. I've got something extra for you. Thank me later. And they spenda ton of time making some donuts. Yeah, here, you throw bothof these away. Feed the nurses. Now it's it's more respectful of people'stime to add value. Right. So the internal and external credibility weleverage when we're doing our job as a salesperson really is about bringing an insight, not a bunch of donuts. I was the king of doughnuts back inthe day, but I would sit there with the client. We be workingon the deal because we're understanding a better, cleaner more. I mean I whenI walked around, I was capturing data the whole time when I wasin those in those client client operations, I was doing proper discovery, measurementand so other things so that we could get their faster. So capital equipmentwhen I was pushing it, the average sale cycle was twenty four months.My average seal cycle was seven. But I was focused on it and Iwanted to get some but again, we're we're lulled into this that you know, just takes seven visits to get there and all this other stuff. Life'sfull of relationships. You get introduced, you're already six visits in. Yeah, yeah, so you talk a lot about relevance and to me there's adis dis inked relationship between value, which you were just talking about. Wegot to deliver value. It's not about handing someone your garbage and being relevant. So talk a little bit about the relationship between these two words and theimportance that they play in sales, but also in the grander strategy of commercialization. So we're known for value, that liquid smarts. From when I wrotean article in the Healthcare Financial Managers Journal on value based purchasing, where Medicarewanted to buy more value, they wanted to get better outcomes and lower costthat it permeated the we have the strong focus on value based purchasing, valuebased marketing and value based selling. Sounds Nice, right. What is valuebased? Get me a really good way to stand apart from your competitors andyour rival projects, which are not just your competitors but other things inside thehospital, hell system or doctor's office. And when you stand apart, beingrelevant therefore requires the ability to deliver value if, and only if you've discovereda deficit, pain point or other issue that the customers dealing with. Sovalues in the eye of the beholder. We as people, Judge What isvaluable through our emotional filter of what's bugging me the most right now is themost valuable thing, because I portion my time toward it. So the biggestdumpster fire I've got is my biggest pain point. I value you putting thatout first, the most you want to come in and get my time focuson something that's hurting me. That's the...

...essence of value, base selling andvalue demonstration is then quantifying that pain. How much is it costing you toput up with a dumpster fire? There's one of the things we deal withright is there are a lot of urgent but not important things that distract ourcustomers, and then there's non urgent but important things, and we have toshow the client that. Look, if you ignore this for more time,it's just going to keep costing your money and creating massive problems. Let mehelp you quantify what you're losing, what you're spending, where your deficits arein this space so that you can help the organization understand that it's a priorityto do today, that it is a value to the organization to make thischange. There's always a cost of change, there's always some difficulty in implementation,there's always all these other things that need to happen. But is itworth doing? Yes, because the problems we are living with are this muchmore expensive than they could be if we mobilize the solution, that's value,and in healthcare or any other industry, that means the customers pain point getsfixed and it's not just the individual, but it starts with the individual andthen scales up to how it fits within the organization. So so, youknow, when you talk about value based sales or marketing or value based healthcare, to me it's it's interesting because it's almost like an oxymoron in the senseof, you know, I think of like other industry, other folks inother industries. They go well, of course, like if we weren't deliveringvalue or communicating value, we wouldn't have a business. But healthcare has beenso different, where we have had non value based healthcare, non value basedmarketing, non value based sales. So you know what's shifting, what's happeningthat's creating this distinction where now all of a sudden we're all paying attention andwe're like hey, you know what? We need to actually provide value tohave a sustainable business. So there's two things. The first one is thefocal point of innovation in the market place, in the healthcare market place, hasshifted from a technology centric approach to a process entered approach. Technology usedto be hey, look what we can do. So we had these stepwisefunctions of new capabilities that opened up new avenues of care delivery. So thethe race was, how can I add this capability and do more? We'renot doing that much more of that anymore. The steps are getting smaller and smallerand smaller. Share their meaningful. Sure they do important things and share. There's plenty of green field still in some areas, but right now thecosts of healthcare are burdening economies around the world and the requires to do processbased innovation. Treating patients consistently in a and properly in a lower intense city, lower cost environment, making sure that care is is extended throughout a patient's, you know, disease life cycle or multiple care episodes across the the pathway. How am I managing chronic disease? How am my leveraging strategic service lines? How am I dealing with nor how am I how am I recruiting patientsand making sure they remain compliant? The technology is implicit in that stack,but it isn't the story. It's an enabling part of the story. Soso now you're standing there saying, well, we do this and the supply shamemanager goes. That's cool. Get me the value analysis committee. Whatthey have these things? Yeah, okay, send them all this paperwork and peopleare scratching around. I left that study in my other pants. I'llbe right back to get that for you. Let me fly back home and getit and I'll be back next email it. So then this all goesinto this big black hole and at the other end of Value Analysis Committee saysMare, after making you wait six months for it to land on our committeesfront door. We go, man, it's not worth the cost of change. So thanks so much where you are...

...a technical choice but it wouldn't work. Yeah, yeah, well, okay. Value Analysis is saying there's Nope,there's no reason to disrupt the process of care based on this little incrementalpiece of technology. When I'm doing value based marketing and selling, I'm doingtwo things. Value based marketing is talking to the customer about a pain pointthat they can aunt solve, a relative relevant pain point relevant to the technologyand the customer, that there's a game point and that there's a proof point, so that the Vac Committee can go Huh Oh, yeah, if weforgot about that. We're partners with the best value analysis committee, the valueanalysis training in the you know, the country in the world. It's oneof our curriculum items. We've licensed it. And then the other thing that happensis the value based selling. The salesperson walks in and says, Igot this pain, here's the game, here's the proof. Let me quantifythe pain for you, let me help you build a business case that sayshere's the with depth and and you know volume of the deficit you're living with. Well, all of a sudden now it jumps up on the hierarchy ofthings to do. Now the that committee puts it on the front and theygo, you know, why wouldn't we solve this? Are there any substitutes? Asks the supply chain manager, based on what marketing said. Is thispain point with this solution point so closely match with a proof point? Theygo not really go forward. Yeah, Game Changer. Yeah, much morefun to sell in that environment, but you actually have to do stuff otherthan burp product features and all the stuff that I mean. Look, theway classical marketing happens is as if we put sales people in boxes and pokethem with sticks, you know, like a rabbit animal with all this productinformation untill there's stuffed so full that they can't avoid erupting on austomer without theslightest bit of provocation. Right, the customer stands there's how awesome we are. Here's well, you know, it's like a new customers were rubbing himselfup with that was awkward. That was really awkward. Do you remember?I want any of that in? The salesperson is dizzy because they've just,you know, erupted so much. Did it work that? Did they likeit? I think I got a little more. I got a little it'sworse. We aren't we you know. And this is human stuff, valuebased selling stars with simple skills like listening, deploying all that years of experiences.A salesperson listening to your customer going, wait a second, how are youdealing with this? And the customer goes that hurts. Yeah, yeah, so you say a lot about there's this phrase of adoption technology. Soon the show we talk a lot about technology, adoption. Right, healthcare, TAK adoption and commercialization, and you have a phrase. Let make sureI get it right. Adoption con is constrained by relevant communication. Hmm,what do you mean by that? Well, again I'm I have to rise abovethe noise so that I can communicate that there's something here for the customerto talk about, to think about. So what on Earth Are you know? What on Earth would compel you to look at this thing? Once theylook at it, they then imprint, to Pon it, their style ofdoing things, and the adoption action is actually the customer taking ownership of theimplementation. There's a really annoying saying we have in a lot of marketing andsales circles where we go hey, we will do this for you, wewill give you, we will give you efficiency, we will give you.We don't give them annything where we don't save a money, we cost themmoney. Let's be clear. What the customer does with our technology is mobilizedsavings, mobilized efficiency, mobilized that stuff. So for this to actually happen,we need to be real about what...

...we're doing and that the customer adopted, bring it home and then take on the burden of making the solution workwith our help, direction suggestions. Yeah, we don't do this. So we'renow talking about, hey, we got cool stuff. Look, it'scovid right. How many times you think a hospital here's from people on adaily basis going hey, I got a covid test? It's almost like sayinghello, right, right, Hey, I've got a covid test. Ahahyeah, a symptom Checker, thermometers, I got PPE, I got this, I got that. Uh Huh. It's not really something that's going toreduce that's going to increase efficiency and reduce costs. Oh but I love that. Write the abstract messaging on a whole list stick level. We will increasethe patient compliance and satisfaction with your broad general services. Can I quantify that? Yeah, yet, so it's not relevant. I don't know how tomeasure it and I don't know how to take it to my boss. And, by the way, in case you haven't noticed, we have some stuffhappening here. We have patients in the hallways. So excuse me for asecond, while I don't want to talk to you about your scale or whateverelse you're selling me. HMM, you're not relevant. I think that thepandemic. So we've been in the attention economy before the pandemic, right,but the fierceness of competition for attention has been amplified significantly with the pandemic becausesome of the traditional channels that we would use to get in front of folksaren't effective or closed, and so now we've got more people on Linkedin,more people on the inbox right, more people in these digital channels than everbefore. So what are you know, maybe two or three best practices orsuggestions that you would have, as you're thinking about value based marketing and valuebased sales, that you would recommend for our audience? So it goes backdown to the pain point and being relevant to the pain point in communications.When I'm sending an outbound message whether and don't do voice mail, but youtalking to for don't do voicemail. I know a lot of people hide thisis so any delete, it doesn't work anymore. Text if you have permission, but in emails or in bound telephone communications. One of the things wehave to do is a suage a customers concerned that they're going to waste theirtime. There's reason we have an attention based competition and the only competition isfor your customers attention. Yeah, and the only, the only sustainable formof differentiation is the customer relationship. Oh No, now we have everything iscrucialized, right. I have to get to them, build a relationship withthem. If I can't even get their attention and my sunk. Yeah,so one of the things that a customer, and like a normal person, doesn'twant to do is waste their time talking to someone they don't know aboutsomething they don't care about. No relevance in the request for time we need. We must let the customer know what they're going to get for the outcome. I can tell you. I can point on one hand the number ofin training sessions, the number of companies we're right out of the gate.I got the answer we're looking for says, how do you get an account totalk to you? It's always I'd like to, I'm knew, I'dlike to come in here and tell you about my product. And so canyou please pick between Thursday? Who Cares? I don't care that you're new,I don't care that you have a product, I don't care. Idon't care about you. So so what are some of the tactics that you'veused to try to or to not try to actually get people that have beenentrenched in these old ways of thinking and...

...doing to actually change their mindset intheir behavior, because they cannot be the hero of the story. They haveto focus on what's in it for the person that they're talking to and notgo in with you know, I'm the hero. Look at me, lookat what I have to offer. But it those are just old mindsets andhabits to break. So we we are always working with the client on tryingto establish a value based mindset. Like you pointed them, it's a wayto think. So mindset changing has to do with how you appropriate words andyou begin to build habits. So back to if I want to get ifI want to get access, I got to tell the customer what they're goingto get. What's in it for you? Now that's what's in it for you, as in with them. Is I need to tell the client thatthey're going to receive something for the time they're going to invest. And isthat return on investment important to them? Is it relevant to their job?So, if I'm going to bring an insight, right, I've got somenew information, I've got some insights, I've got something that use it,that is based on your role, important to you in advancing your mission?It must be mission relevant to the organization. It can't be. We have this. It's based on where you're going. We have some insights around this.I'd like to spend thirty minutes with you. At the end you're goingto have a report that's based on our interaction that gives you these three insights. It's going to take a half hour. We're going to have to ask yousome questions. Let's book it. Okay, relevant, something I need, something I can't get and if it's more difficult is it would be ashame for you to lose this resource, because we have it ready for youto be ashamed to lose it. I'm framing it appropriately to towards a painpoint, not getting a resource. Yeah, the sales teams. And again thisis because we've been put in a cage and poked with product information solong. That's like feature benefit, feature benefit. And sometimes this is oneof the statements. Sometimes the best sales people don't really know their products.I completely agree with you. You could actually be a much better, moreeffective salesperson knowing nothing about the product, because then you're not even tempted todo the word vomit on someone because you don't even have it in your arsenal. Well, but then they that mean it's difficult for a seal, aprofessional salesperson, to manage that fear, that is, that they're going toask me about my product that I don't know. Right. You are nota human pop up at that's what your garbage is for. That's the that'sthe you know all the specs and detailer there what matters to the customer.But matters to the customer is them. So, Hey, here's an idea. If you're new, walk in and don't go hey, I'm new,say I really would like to get to know your and your organization, youroperations. For that time investment. I'll make sure that we, as acompany are easier to work with. That's my job. You have to livewith our company. I can get a new job, but you have acontract. All right, let's make sure, let's make sure that we're treating youproperly. Let's work on that part. Let's clean up some messages, let'sdo and the trust build. And then during that process you go inwhat's that? Oh, that's your competitors and thing. Oh really, youlike it? You know it's okay. How does it compare to our system? Say how I got most of my product training, by the way.I would pay that and I knew I had the ability to absorb a lotof information. So marketing would tell me what we've gotten, why it's awesomeand all that sort of stuff. But I always took that down as likewe are a little self serving, to be honest. Come on. SoI don't say customer, Hey, what do you like about it? Thisis I got. How does that compare to ours? They go oh,well, your thing does it this way and that's pretty good because of this, this and this, but we do... this way and what we couldprobably do it your way, but it takes this to do it. Nowthat's some handy little information. Right, yeah, that's gold. So Ididn't stand there and go, oh, yeah, that's the such and such. You know, we're better at this and at than that one. Shutup, you wise. You know I didn't ask you right. Right,says, we're walking over there to go completely different outcome. Don't tell meI made a mistake. Ask Me what I did right and I will beselfcritical and then say be critical of my product, because that's what I'm goingto bump up against. All my clients taught me exactly how to sell them, because I asked them. Why would you buy for me? This isa decent sales question. Why would you buy from me? Well, welike you. That it a you got a pretty good product portfolio. Yourcompanies are right. Your pricing is a little off, okay. Why wouldn'tyou buy from me? No reason. Well, and gun to the reasonwhy I think that is so important is because, as human beings, weare all very different and even if you are selling to a perceived to behomogeneous group, right, I'm I'm selling to all of the administrators at ahospital systems across the country in the US we are still very different as humanbeings and we interpret and experience things very different. So this one powerful questionthat you just shared with our audience is is really getting to know how tosell and persuade them, and not like in a Sneezy, sleezy snake oilkind of way, but it's like, what is their particular pain mean?How can you can deliver them specific personal value, which may be very differentfor the exact same persona ideal customer profile down the street? We end upbeing obsessed with being an expert, and I was a Boni fight expert inmy domain. I knew stuff, I knew all about these things, butI somehow was able to not let that affect my ability to listen to mycustomers. See, for for the we said this earlier, but for forthe technology to make it to the patient side, commercial operations must succeed.Yeah, what that means is we need to be ready to fulfill and deliveron our promise. But at the pointy end they're right, where we dowhat we do to get things sold. The salesperson to succeed needs the customerto win, and that doesn't mean get a great price or take it outof me. You know, we have this this phony warbased mentality about howwe develop markets and how we sell. Well, right, I'm going todominate, I'm going to wit. No where is it written that. It, you know, has to be adversarial, even in even in a negotiation,even with the most adversarial negotiating team on the other side. I getit. You need this, you need that. I understand. Let's Iunderstand. It's okay, but here's what we need. When I need to, we need to, we need to fight about it, and you're goingto want to deal. You'll get a deal for me. I Care AboutYour Business. And here's the one thing you need to understand. Genuinely,if you cheap our price down enough that it is unprofitable for us, thatshould tell you something about us that should make you want to walk away,which is we are willing to lose money on this deal. And if we'rewilling to do that with you, we're willing to do that all over theplace, which diminishes our financial performance, which means we're not as stable andreliable a partner to you. And, by the way, this is apart of your operations you're going to be putting in relying on. You needa profitable, stable, reliable business partner like us. That's why my priceis higher, because I'm going to be here at the other side. Reallygo with the you can go with the...

...a cheap guy. You go thecheap guy, but don't don't think that he's going to be as properly resourceto support you. Don't think that he's going to be as properly resource tobring out the new stuff. They're not do things cost money. Well,and you just made the value argument right and it was even still in thewhat's in it for them? Like you're not I'm not going to lower myprice because I'm looking out for you. But it's true exactly. It's true, but it's a just a different perspective. We, you know again, weget stuck in this stuff, with these path dependencies of the way weused to do things. When we when we free ourselves from that relies,it's a relationship and the relationship is the sustainable form of competitive advantage. Weseek to build relationships and let the vehicle that carries US forward in that relationshipbe whatever we happen to be selling. So, if you had to aswe wrap up here, if you had to summarize, what are the mainideas or takeaways that you want our audience to Glean from your expertise and inthe insights that you share today? I think the first thing is you needto challenge your model and really understand what you are taking for granted in yourcommercial operations. Do you need a corporate accounts team or can you rent one? Do you need account managers everywhere, or can you use distributors? Whyand why not? You know, is it really necessary for you to haveproduct specialists? Are you overburdening product specialists or account managers by the way you'redealing with them? The second thing is built some business rules that make yourorganization more Nimble. So part of what we're doing in a value base mindsetis we're establishing the way we want to go to market, and those looklike business rules that can make it all the way down to the salesperson andthe regional manager. But for one example, it would be what are we doingright now? And first business rule. Does it help us be more valuableto our customers? Now that's second Lens. That can business rule.Does this make us more productive and efficient as a team, not just meas a team. What? So? Hey, we need to have acall to review the forecast. Great idea. Does it help us become more valuableto our customers? Know? Does it help us be more productive andefficient as a team? Yes, okay, fifty, let's go. We needto do this. Does it help us? And you just structure YourBusiness rules that way to continue to build what you're trying to do within thatculture. The third thing I want you to think about is the way youtalk about your customers. Is it value oriented or is IT technology oriented?We talked about our customer segments by business lines. You know, this isthe this segment, this is the that segment. Why can't we talk aboutour customers in terms of pain points, of problems and create solutions across businesslines? Because that's how they see us. They see us as a mixture ofthings that will help them solve an operational problem. So for us tobe effective today, we need to recognize what we do clinically that they can'talready have. Why do we help them with their clinical utility? But wedidn't stop there. We have to also say what do we do to helpthem be more operationally efficient, because that's the focal point of innovation. Howare we helping them mobilize their people, their processes and technology better so thatthey can deliver better clinically utility? And then the third thing we need todo is we need to ask ourselves, how does this affect the financial performanceof the customer? What are the financial performance deficits? No, it's notalways a reimbursement story. Right, it's...

...about can they afford it or mustthey afford it? Hospitals are used to losing money. Healthcare is used tolosing money because they're on the leading edge and reimbursement catches up. If thatleading edge saves money for the society, hospitals will take it and the healthsystem will make it. That's why we have all this integration. The focalareas were working within that live in a budget constrained environment are trying to keeptheir cost down because they are cost centers and they are centers of huge intensityof finances and resources. But there's nothing wrong with having a device cost twiceas much as the reimbursement if it reduces downstream utilization and the ID and canbenefit from it. But you're not going to get that message across when you'reselling about just technically or clinically to the you know, the main buyer.I have to fill in the picture, which means I have to understand thecustomers environment, which means it might not be as important that I know everythingabout my product and my competitor's product. It might be that I need toknow how they're doing this stuff in the first place. So be open mind. Yeah, customer expert instead of a product expert. And, by theway, you don't have to have a degree to get that. You justhave to ask questions. Questions I found out actually have a pretty low cost, last time I checked. Yeah, it didn't cost me anymore to say, what time is it? Where's the bathroom, versus old still, letme tell you about my product, right. And you know, I think somany times we think that when we ask questions that it makes us looklike we don't know the answers and we're incompetent. We want to, youknow, put on this facade that we have all the answers so we don'thave asked questions, when really it's the opposite of fact, right, likeyou're saying. You know, and I hope all of our listeners are heatingthis right now is that when you're asking questions, you know you actually candemonstrate some authority by asking the right questions, the most meaningful questions. Well,by the quality of my questions, I give myself broader access and presentsinside the account by the quality of my questions, I'm telling the customer I'mconsidering their their situation at a deeper level. That's how you convey expertise. Whydo you think professors don't just well, good professors ask questions. It's alittle like a little deep there. Well, thank you so much foryour time today. It's been a wonderful experience. I think that our listenersare going to really enjoy this conversation. How do folks get ahold of youif they want to follow up with you after the show? Welcome to tripleW DOT liquid smarts. Plural, let's because we have street smarts and theirliquid liquid smartscom you'll see a narcissistic view of the firm with me as abig picture on it. It's fairly easy to navigate. Go to the website, put fill in the contact form, not going to spam you on there. There's a few other things and then the email. Also email works,gunter gun tar at liquid smartscom. We're happy to help you revitalize your commitcommercial operations, because we can't get that technology to the patient without commercial operationssucceeding. We do a very good job for our clients making sure that youcan have a commercial ops that is working for you and for the marketplace.Awesome. Thank you so much for your time today. Thanks, Roxy,you were delightful. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busyworking to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time andattention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe tothe show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher.Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone...

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