Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 76 · 9 months ago

One critical thing you need to increase adoption w/ Gunter Wessels


The pandemic has changed the way we all do business - our tried and true methods have been tested and found to be lacking in this new digital environment.

But what’s a company to do? How are you supposed to be able to commercialize or sell your product when you can’t even meet with your prospects?

It’s enough to send your blood pressure soaring and the muscles in your neck twitching - if you don’t know the secret sauce.

So, take a deep breath and give a listen to what Gunter Wessels, Co-founder of LiquidSmarts, has to say about value-based selling, marketing, and communication in a digital environment.

Gunter uses humor and candor to dive into the psychology of value-based digital business management, and then shows our viewers exactly how it’s done.

Here are the show highlights:

  • Why you don’t have to conduct in-person business to make an impact (3:44)
  • Building relationships in a digital environment (6:03)
  • Understanding the essence of value-based selling (10:04)
  • Technology may be implicit, but it’s not the whole story (12:59)
  • How adoption of an innovation is only constrained by the relevance of your communication (18:23)
  • It’s more valuable to be a customer expert instead of a product expert (32:43)

Guest Bio

Gunter Wessels is the Co-Founder and Practice General Manager of LiquidSmarts, a company that reduces miscommunication, misalignment of resources, and dis-coordination of action to increase engagement and sales volume.

His decades-long career in sales and business diagnostics and innovation has evolved into a strategy that uses the latest micro-learning approaches to value-based business solutions.

Gunter received his BS in Biology and MBA in Marketing Management from the University of California, Riverside, and Ph.D. in Management from the University of Arizona.

If you’d like to reach out to Gunter, you can email him at or reach out to him on his website at

IYOU're listening to health, innovators,a podcast and video show about the leaders influencers and early adopterswho are shaping the future of health care on your host Doctor Roxey movie welcome back health innovators. Ontoday's episode I have doctor Gunder vessels with me. He is the founder ofLiquard smarts. Welcome to the show, thanks for oxy great to be here andthanks foeverywody for listening yeah. So I am really excited about thisconversation today, because we share so many similar passions that I think thatthis is going to be a very rich conversation about commercialization.So before we get into the nuts and bolts of things, just give ourlisteners a little bit of information about your background and what you do, I started off as a sales rep in healthcare TSO. Only the industry, I've been ININ, one thousand nine hundred andninety two, which seems like yesterday, but it's being a longer and longer timeevery day that goes by I've been a consultant beginning onhealth care, economics and Thenan commercialization since two thousandand four, and do this worldwide and so forth. And U, our aim is to help ourclients be relevant in today's healthcare environment, and so that'swhat liquid smarts is about, making the know how that exists out there portablefluid and able to be put into whatever container you needid, so liquid smarts. How long have you hadthe company we spun off out of another firm in Julyof two thwousand and seventeen, so that also seems like yesterday, butit's getting to be a little bit further in history every day. So how has your business? How is your business changed since thepandemic, wow so yeah during during the beginning of last year? Round this timeI was having a great time I was was getting ready to go on a ski trip in steamboat and everything seemed all right: We'reselling some new business and so forth. I got back fror my ski trip in myentire year's production disappeared, so we had no revenue and no so painful. It felt awesome. I had H SOS like DPPP. Do all that sortof stuff? We didn't do it yeah. You know I've been successful enough and we pivoted hard. We started giving lients access to skills that theyneeded to survive in t e, the distant selling world put together a program ortwo did some webbinars and so on, and then started training our clients andperspective clients on how to be better distant sellers. We did that from Maythrough its currently going on right now we did eight global programs andwe've done about fifteen national programs, in addition to that, fullblown training sessions to teach sales people how to sell in a digitalenvironment, multiple media text, email phone conference call video call andall that stuff with a real, strong eye towards how to influence and that created for us a little bit of sustaining revenue. Wewewere limping along yeap and in January. So it's February five in January, we sold and closed and you'll run ratebusiness that was bigger than the year priors amount of business and were setto double that this month. So we're going from a year of famine to aexplosive level of growth, and I don't think, we've even tapped but likethirty percent of our runway this year, so ea yeah, Jis covid. I've had a I'vehad a talent issue. I need talent, yeah O my own is pretty poor, so you got taget I... know it's interesting because it'sbeen like this mass, the opposite of mass exodus towardsdigital communications, for health care. What I find is so fascinating as you'vegot. You know all of these other industries. I think that have beendoing. Distance Selling for Nean, priht and healthcare is and whole was just soreliant on trade shows and face toface encounters, and it's been like wait.What how the heck do we do this and reallythinking their entire? You know marketing and Sales d and kind of whatyou're saying all of that money that these companieshad allocated to travel and trade shows. I see them investing more in sales andmarketing yeah and they should yeah, but I started out what so my salestraining in one housand, nine hundred and ninety two at a commission. Onlyjob was my the business owner at this little distributorship handing me atThomas Guide and if you know what a Thomas Gide is you you're, okay with me,the little maps and then circled on the pages where the hospitals were, and hesaid, go here right igh. That was it. That was it.You might as well hand you a phone book and he did he's like if you can't findhim. Here's some quarters Callin the lobby y right, Goss e receptions withthe phone number is calling the lobby see if you can get in. It was all justburning, shoe leather, corrent, incredibly inefficient, incrediblyinefficient, credibly costly, and we have this obsession right. It's greatto have a relationship and you need to breathe the same air from time to time,but to get the business done, that's may be five to ten percent of it. Therest of it were sitting in our offices anyway, but we have this fictive notionthat you know. If I get out there, it's going to be better. I'm able to do eighteen different calls.A day. Now I reserve my free time between midnight and four am so I ableto put a few extra hours of work in, but I'm able to do eighteen clientfacing visits in a day that I need to because of the growth we're facingright. We can get so much more done this way and deliver higher qualityword, because I'm not spending the time in traffic and listening to talk radioyeah. So so you know, I have a client that comes to mine, where I kind of hada very similar conversation and trying to create that reality picture for them.Of How many visits does your average sale rap VI get to see face to facewhen you're out on the road, and it was about six and you think about how thatcan be multiplied with digital communications, so explonentially? But what would whatI want to talk? What I want to kind of get at here is how many people are youcoming across, because I know I am that kind of can't wait to get back to thegood old days with trade shows and conferences again and kind of almostthinking of like okay, fine, you know tell me what I need to do in thistemporary moment around the pandemic. Before I get back to my old ways ofselling and doing business everybody, Oh, I can't wait to get back out there.Three years ago I did two hundred and forty thousand miles in the air rightthe year befre the year after that I was doing about a hundred and eightysand h, airlines loved me and I had status. You know I haven't flown since last year's thelongest I haven't flown since, like high school yeah and that it wasn'tthat wasn't recent and I love it yeah. I love it when you do fly now, it's actually F,you know Fwhen, you do fly again. It will be for a vacation for personaltime, not necessarily for work. I mean these. I remember just being stuck inairports. You know late at night, walalking around and no itiwasmiserable and it made it ages. You but...

...everybody's got this again fictivenotion that to influence I've got to be in breathing the same air, it'sexpensive for both parties, the average cost for a salesperson to be in frontof a client cost the company in excess of five hundred dollars. That's howmuch she spent there. I ask sales people to tell me what value did theyget for that visit and can they quantify it and is it near five hundreddollars? Is it anywhere near five hundred dollars, because what did youdo there to make? A zoom call doesn't cost you as much and therefore the theprogress you can make is hired. People can fit you in it's not as long it's,not it's not as expensive. Well, they're spending five hundredlars tofly across town to hand someone there awful Broshore, oh like well, that'sthe other problem. You know, wow broshures, getting a visit from a salesperson.Unfortunately, historically was like getting a visitor who brought their owngarbage and said: Hey here you throw this away. I got too many of them put it in yourrecycling bend. You know you g charged by the pound for this trash. I've gotsomething extra for you thank me later and they spend a ton oftime Ain some donuts yeah ere you throw both desease away, feed the nurses. Now it's it's more respectful of people's timeto add value right. So the internal and external credibility. We leverage whenwe're doingin our job as a salesperson really is about bringing an insight,not a a bunch of dohnuts. I was the king of donuts back in the day, but Iwould sit there with the client we be working on the deal because we'reunderstanding a better cleaner. More I mean I when I walked around. I wascapturing data the whole time when I was in those in those clinate clientoperations. I was doing proper discovery measurement and so otherthings so that we could get there faster, so capital equipment. When Iwas pushing it, the average sale cycle was twenty four months. My aversilcycle was seven, but I was focused on it nd. I wanted toget some, but again we're we're lulled into this, that you know it just takesan visits to get there and all this other stuff life's full ofrelationships. You get introduced, you're already six visits in yeah yeah.So you talk a lot about relevance and to me there's a just a distinctrelationship between value whath. You were just talking about when you got todeliver value, it's not about handing someone, your garbage and beingrelevant, so talk a little bit about the relationship between these twowords and the importance that they play in sales, but also in the granderstrategy of commercialization. So we're known for value that liquidsmarts from when I wrote an article in theHealthcare Financial Managers Journal on Value Base purchasing where Medicarewanted to buy more value, they wanted to get better outcomes and lower cost that permeated the, and we have thestrong focus on value base. Purchasing valubased marketing and valuebaseselling. Sounds Nice right. What is value based get me a really good way tostandapart from your competitors and your rival, projects, which are notjust your competitors but other things inside the hospital health system ordoctor's office, and when you stand apart being relevant, thereforerequires the ability to deliver value if and only if, you've discovered adeficit, painpoint or other issue that the customers dealing with so values inthe eye of the beholder we as people judge what is valuable through ouremotional filter of what's bugging me. The most right now is the most valuablething, because aportion my time toward it, so thebiggest dumpster fire I've got is my biggest painpoint. I value putting thatout. First, the most you want to come in and get my time focus on somethingthat's hurting me.

That's the essence of valuebay sellingand value demonstration is then quantifying that pain. How much is itcosting you to put up with a dumpster fire there's? One of the things we dealwith right is: There are a lot of urgent but not important things thatdistract oir customers and then there's none urgent but important things, andwe have to show the client that look. If you ignore this for more time, it'sjust going to keep costing your money and creating massive problems. Let mehelp you quantify what you're losing what you're spending where yourdeficits are in this space, so that you can help the organization understandthat it's a priority to do today that it is a value to the organization tomake this change. There's always a cost of change. There's always somedifficulty n implementation. There's always all these other things that needto happen, but is it worth doing? Yes, because the problems we are living withare this much more expensive than they could be if we mobileize the solution,that's value and in healthcare or any other industry? That means thecustomers. painpoint gets fixed and it's not just the individual, but itstarts with the individual and then scales up to how it fits within theorganization. So so you know when you talk about value based sales armarketing or value based health care o to me,it's interesting because it's almost like an oxymorine in the sense of youknow I think of like other industry other folks in other industries. Theygo well, of course like if we weren't delivering value or communicating value,we wouldn't have a business, but healthcare has been so different wherewe have had nonvalue based healthcare, non value base, marketing nonvaluebased sales. So you know, what's shifting, what's happening, that'screating this distinction. Where now all of a sudden we're all payingattention and we're like hey, you know what we need to actually provide valueto have a sustainable business. So there's two things: the first one is the focal point of innovation in themarketplace in the healthcare market. Place has shifted from a technologycentric approach to a process, centered approach technology used to be hey,look what we can do so we had these stepwise functions of new capabilitiesthat opened up new avenues of care delivery. So the the race was. How canI add this capability and do more we're? Not doing that much more of thatanymore, the steps are getting smaller and smaller and smaller sure they'remeaningful sure they do important things and sure there's plenty ofgreenfield still in some areas, but right now the costs of healthcare areburdening economies around the world and the require us to do. Process basedinnovation, treating patients consistently in and properly in a lowerintensity, lower cost environment, making sure that Kareis is extendedthroughout a patient's. You know, disease, life cycle or multiple careepisodes across the the pathway. How M I managing chronic disease? How am Ileveraging strategic servicelines? How my dealing with ne? How might how am Irecruiting patients and making sure they remain compliant? The technologyis implicit in that stack, but it isn't the story. It's an enabling part of thestory. So so now, you're standing there saying. Well, we do this and the supplyshe manager goes. That's cool. Get me the value analysis committee. What they have these things, yeah, okay,send them all this paperwork and people are scratching around. I left thatstudy and my other pants I'll be right back to get that for you. Let me flyback home and get it and I'll be back. Ani Email it. So then this all goesinto this big black hole and, at the other end the Valle Analysis Committeesays man. After making you wait six months for itto land on our committee's front door, we go ma, it's not worth the cost, Ochange. So thanks so much weird, you...

...ere a technical choice, but it wouldn'twork. Yeah, yeah, well, okay, value analysis is saying: There's no, there'sno reason to disrupt the process of care based on this little incrementalpiece of technology when I'm doing valuble, marketing andselling I'm doing two things. valuebased marketing is talking to thecustomer about a painpoint that they can't solve a relative, relevant painpoint relevantto the technology and the customer that there's a gamepoint and that there's aproof point so that the VAT committee can go huh. Oh yeah, we forgot aboutthat we're partners with the best valueanalysis committee of the value, annousis training in the you know inthe country. In the world, that's one of our curriculum items, we've licensedit and then the other thing that happensis the valuebase selling the salesperson walks in and says. I gotthis pain, here's the game, here's the proof. Let me quantify the pain for you.Let me help you build a business case that says: here's the with depth andand ou volume of the deficit you're living with welall of a sudden. Now itjumps up on the hierarchy of things to do now. The vact committee puts it on thefront and they go. You know why? Wouldn't we solve this? Are there anysubstitutes asks the supply, chame manager based on what marketing said?Is this payinpoint with this solution point so closely? Matchd with a proofpoint, they go not really go forward. Yeah game, Changer, yeah, much more fun tosell in that environment, but you actually have to do stuff other thanburb, but product features and all this stuff that I mean look. The wayclassical marketing happens is is if we put sales people in boxes and pokhenwith sticks. You know, like a rabbit animal with all this productinformation until they're, stuffed so full that they can't avoid erupting ona customer without the slightest bit of provocation right, the customerstanders. How awesome we are you know it's like, and the customerserubbing thestelf up wad, that was awkward. That was really awkward. Do you thinkyou want any of that and the salesperson is dizzy because they've,just you know, Ereptid so much lik it did it work did ID ID, did they like it?I think I got a little more. I got a little it's worse. We aren't we. Youknow- and this is human stuff value base, selling stars with simple skillslike listening deplying. All that years of experienceis a salesperson listening to your customer, going wait a second. How are you dealing with this and thecustomer Goes Oo that Hurts Yeah Yeah? So so you say a lot about there's thisphrase of adoption technot. So on this show wetalk a lot about technology, adoption right, healthcare, teck, adoption andcommercialization, and you have a phrase on me- show get it right.Adoption can is constrained by relevant communication. What do you mean by that? Well again, I'm I have to rise above the noise so thatI can communicate that there's something here for the customer to talkabout to think about. So what on Earth Are you know? What on Earth wouldcompel you to look at this thing once they look at it? They then imprint uponit, their style of doing things and the adoption action is actually thecustomer taking ownership of the implementation. There's a reallyannoying saying we have in in a lot of marketing and sales circles where we gohey. We will do this for you. We will give you, we will give you EFICIENCY.We will give you, we don't give them anything, wait, we don't save themmoney, we cost them money. Let's be got clear. What the customer does with ourtechnology is mobile. Ize Savings, mobilize efficiency, mobilize thatstuff. So for this to actually happen,...

...we need to be real about what we'redoing and hat the customer adoptit bring it home and then take on theburden of making the solution work with our help direction. Suggestions yeah,we don't do this so we're now talking about hey, we got cool stuff. Look it's covid right B. How many times you think a hospitalhereis from people on a daily basis going hey. I got a Covi test. It'salmost like saying hello right right, Helo I've got a covetus uhhuh yeah, asymptom, checker t themoometers. I got PPE. I got this. I got that Uhhuh, it's not Reahav, something that's goingto Redu, that's going to increase efficiency and reduce costs. Oh, but Ilove that right, the abstract messaging. On a holistic level, we will increasethe patient compliance and satisfaction with your broad general services. Can Iquantify that Yeah Yeah? So it's not relevant. Idon't know how to measure it and I don't know how to take it to my Bossonby the way. In case you haven't notice. We have some stuff happening here. Wehav patience in the hallways. So excuse me for a second. While I don't want totalk to you about your scale or whatever else you're selling me mm you're not relevant. I think thatthe pandemic, so so we've been in the attention economy before the pandemicright, but the fierceness of competition for attentionhas been amplified significantly with the pandemic, because some of thetraditional channels that we would use to get in front of folks aren'teffective or closed, and so now we've got more people on Linkedin, morepeople on the inbox write more people in these digital channels than everbefore. So what are you know? Maybe two or three best practices or suggestionsthat you would have as you're thinking about value based marketing and valuebase sales that you would recommend for our audience. So it goes back down tothe PAINPOINT and being relevant to the painpoint in communications when I'msending an upbound message with her and don't do voice mail, but you talk intofoot, don't Dou Voice Mal. I know a lot of people hi. This is so ndelete. Itdoesn't work anymore text if you have permission, but in emails or Inboun telephonecommunications. One of the things we have to do is Asuaga customersconcerned that they are going to waste their time. Ther's reason we have anattention based competition and the only competition is for your customers.Attention and the only the only sustainable form of differentiation isthe customer relationship. Oh No, now we have everything is crucialized right.I have to get to them, build a relationship with them. If I can't evenget their attention and my I'm sunk yeah. So one of the things that a customerlike a normal person doesn't want to do is waste their time talking to someone.They don't know about something. They don't care about. No relevance in therequest for time. We need. We must let the customer know what they're going toget for the outcome. I can tell you I can point on one handthe number of in training sessions. The number of companies were right out ofthe gate. I got the answer, we're looking for says. How do you get anaccount to talk to you? It's Alalways I'd like to I'm new I'd like to come inhere and tell you about my product, and so can you please pick between Thursday?Who Cares? I don't care that you're new? I don't care that you have a product, Idon't C, I don't care about you, so so what are some of the tactics thatyou've used to try to, or not try to...

...actually get people that have beenentrenched in these old ways of thinking and doing to actually changetheir mindset in their behavior, because they cannot be the hero of thestory. They have to focus on. What's in it, for the person that they're talkingto and not go in with you know, I'm the hero. Look at me, look at what I haveto offer, but those are just old mindsets and habits to break, so we, we are always working with theclient on trying to establish a value based mindset. Like you point, it's away to think so. Mindset changing has to do with how you appropriate words,and you begin to build habits so back to. If I want to get. If I want to getaccess, I got to tell the customer what they're going to get what's in it, foryou now that, what's what's in it for you as in Whitham, is I need to tellthe client that they're going to receive something for the time they'regoing to invest and is that return on investment important to them? Is itrelevant to their job? So if I'm going to bring an insight right, I've gotsome new information. I've got some insights. I've got something that useit. That is based on your role, important to you in advancing yourmission. It must be missionrelevant to the organization it can't be. We havethis it's based on where you're going. We have some insights around this I'dlike to spend thirty minutes with you at the end, you're going to have areport, that's based on our interaction that gives you these three insights.It's going to take a half hour. We're goin no, have to ask you some questions.Let's book it, okay relevant something, I needsomething I can't get and then, if it's more difficult cau, it would be a shamefor you to lose this resource because we have it ready for you be ashamed tolose it, I'm framing it appropriately to towards a painpoint, not getting aresource, yeah the sales teams and again this is because we've been put ina cage and poked with product information. So long, this like featurebenefit feature benefit, and sometimes this is one of the statements.Sometimes the best salespeople, don't really know their products. Icompletely agree with you. You can actually be a much better, moreeffective salesperson, knowing nothing about the product, because then you'renot even tempted to do the ward voment on someone, because you don't even haveit in your arsenal. Well, but then they that mean it'sdifficult for, sell a professional salesperson to manage that fear. Thatis that they're going to ask me about my product hand. I don't know right.You are not a human popup ad, that's what your garbage is for. That's thethat's the you know all the specks, an detailer there. What matters to thecustomer but matners to the customer is them so hey here's, an idea. If you'renew walk in and don't go, Hey I'm new say I really would like to get to know yourand your organization, your operations for that time, investment I'll makesure that we as a company are easier to work with that's my job. You have tolive with our company. I can get a new job, but you have a contract. I Hao.Let's make sure, let's make sure that we're treating you properly. Let's workon that part, let's clean up some messes, let's do and the trust build,and then, during that process you go in. What's that? Oh that's your competitors!INF THING! Oh really, you like it, you know thits, okay, how does it compare to our system? Thisis how I got most of my product training. By the way I would pay Thi,and I knew I had. I have the ability to absorb a lot of information. Somarketing would tell me what we've Goten, why it's awesome and all thatsort of stuff, but I always took that down as like. We are a littleselfserving to be honest, come on so hats, ome Customer Hey! What do youlike about it this this like? How does that compare to ours? Hiy O? Oh! Well,your thing does it this way, and that's...

...pretty good because of this this andthis, but we do it this way and well. We could probably do it your way, butit takes this to do it now. That's some handy little oation right, yeah, that'sgold! So I didn't stand there and go oh yeah! That's the such and such you knowwe're better at this and that than that one shut up. You Wise! You know Ididn't ask you right right! SAUSE, we ere walking over there to go completely different outcome. Don'ttell me I made a mistake. Ask Me what I did write and I will be self critical and thensay be critical of my product, because that's what I'm going to bump upagainst all my clients taught me exactly how to sell them, because Iasked them. Why would you buy? For me this is a decent sales question. Whywould you buy for me? Well, we like you that it id you got apretty good product, porfolio your companies, all right. Your pricing is alittle off okay. Why? Wouldn't you buy from me no reason well in Gunto? The reason why I thinkthat is so important is because, as human beings we are all very differentand even if you are selling to a perceived to be homogenius group right,I'm selling to all of the administrators at a hospital systemsacross the country in the US we are still very different as human beingsand we interpret and experience things very different. So this one powerfulquestion that you just shared with our audience is is really getting to knowhow to sell and persuade them and not like in a sneezy sleezy snake oil kindof way. But it's like what is their particular pain. How can you candeliver them specific personal value, which may be very different for theexact same persona, ideal customer profile down the street? We end up being obsessed with being anexpert, and I was a bonifight expert in my domain. I knew stuff, I knew allabout these things, but I somehow was able to not let that affect my abilityto listen to my customers, seefor for the we said this earlier,but for for the technology to make it to the patient side. Commercialoperations must succeed yeah, but that means is. We need to be ready tofulfill and deliver on our promise, but at the point end there right where wedo what we do to get things sold. The salesperson to succeed needs thecustomer to win and I doesn't mean get a great price or take it out of me. Youknow we have this. This phony war based mentality about how we develop marketsand how we sell well right, I'm going to dominate a I'm Gonto wit, no, the! Where is it written that ityou know, has to be adversarial, even in even in a negotiation, even with themost adversarial negotiating team. On the other side, I get it youre need this. You need that.I understand let'. I understand it's okay, but here's what we need, but Ineed to we nearlybt. I need to fight about it and you're going to want todeal you'll get a deal for me. I Care About Your Business and here's the onething you need to understand genuinely. If you cheap our price down enough,that it is unprofitable for us that should tell you something about us thatshould make you want to walk away, which is we are willing to lose hismoney on this deal and if we're willing to do that with you, we're willing todo that all over the place which diminishes our financial performance,which means we're not as stable and reliable a partner to you and by theway this is a part of your operations. You're going to be putting in relyingon you need a profitable, stable, reliable business partner. Like us,that's Whyr, my price is higher because I'm going to be here at the other side,wherl ye go with the you can go with...

...the ACHEAP guy. You go the cheap guy, but don't don'tthink that he's going to be as properly resource to support? You don't thinkthat he's going to be as properly research to bring out the new stuffthey're, not things cost money well, and you just made the valueargument right and it was even still in the what's init for them like you're, not I'm not going to lower my price, because I'mlooking out for you, but it's true exactly it's true, butit's a just a different perspective. We you know again we get stuck in thisstuff with these path. dependencies of the way we used to do things when we,when we free ourselves from that realize it's a relationship and therelationship is the sustainable form of competitive advantage. We seek thebuill relationships and let the vehicle that carries US forward in thatrelationship, be whatever we happen to be selling. So, if you had to as we wrap up here,if you had to summarize what are the main ideas or takeaways that you wantour audience to Glean from your expertise and in the insights that youshare today. I think the first thing is: You need to challenge your model andreally understand what you are taking for. Granted in your commercialoperations, do you need a corporate accounts team,or can you rent one? Do you need account managers everywhere,or can you use distributors? Why? And why not you know, is it really necessary foryou to have product specialists? Are youoverburdening product specialists or account managers by the way you'redealing with them? The second thing is it built some business rules that makeyour organization more Nimble. So part of what we are doing in a valuebased mindset is we're establishing the way we want to go to market and thoselook like business rules that can make it all the way down to the salespersonand the the regional manager, but for hone example. It would be. What are wedoing right now and first business rule? Does it help us be more valuable to ourcustomers now that' Len eckon business rule? Doesthis make us more productive and efficient as a team, not just me as ateam? What so hey? We need to have a call to review the forecast. Great Idea:Does it help us become more valuable to our customers? No does it help us bemore productive and efficient as a team? Yes, okay, fit fifty, let's go, we needto do this. Does it help us and you just structure Your Business rules thatway to continue to build what you're trying to do within that culture? The third thing I want you to thinkabout is the way you talk about your customers. Is it value warranted or is ITtechnology oriented? We talk about our customer segments by business lines.You know this is the this segment. This is that that segment, why can't we talkabout our customers in terms of painpoints and problems and createsolutions across business lines, because that's how they see us, theysee us as a mixture of things that will help them solve an operational problem. So for us to be effective today we needto recognize what we do clinically that they can't already have. Why do we helpthem with their colinical utility, but we dadn't stop there. We have to alsosay: What do we do to help them be more operationally efficient, because that'sthe focal point of innovation? How are we helping them? Mobilize their people,their processes and technology better so that they can deliver betterclinicall utility and then the third thing we need to do is we need to askourselves: How does this affect the financial performance of the customer?What are the financial performance deficits? No, it's not always areimbursement story right, it's about.

Can they afford it or must they affordit? Hospitals are used to losing money.Health cares used to losing money because they're on the leading edge andreimbursement catches up, if that leading edge, saves money for thesociety, hospitals will take it and the health system will make it that's why we have all this integration.The focal aries were working within that live in a budget constrainedenvironment are trying to keep their cost down because they are cost centersand they are centers of huge intensity of finances and resources, but there'snothing wrong with having a device cost twice as much as the reimbursement ifit reduces downstream utilization and the IDEAN can benefit from it. Butyou're not going to get that message across when you're selling about justtechnically or clinically to the you know the main buyer I have to fill inthe picture, which means I have to understand the customers environment,which means it might not be as important that I know verything aboutmy product on my competitors product. It might be that I need to know howthey're doing this stuff in the first place, so be open. Min Yeah customerexpert instead of a product expert, an by the way you don't have to have adegree to get that you just have to ask questions. Questions Ive found outactually have a pretty low cost. Last time I checked yeah, it didn't cost me anymore to saywhat time is it wers? The bathroom versus hold still, let me tell youabout my product right, and you know I think so many times. We think that whenwe ask questions that it makes us look like we don't know the answers andwe're in competent. We want to you know, put on this facade that we have all theanswers, so we don't have taske questions when really it's the oppositeeffect right, like you're saying you know, and I hope all of our listenersare heeting this right now- is that when you're asking questions you knowyou actually can demonstrate some authority by asking the right questionsthe most meaningful questions. Well by the quality of my questions, I givemyself broader access and presence inside the account by the quality of myquestions. I'm telling the customer I'mconsidering heir their situation at a deeper level. That's how you conveyexpertise. Why do you think professors? Don't just well good professors, askquestions eahtit's a Littlei kind of little deepthere. Well! Thank you so much for your time.Today, it's been a wonderful experience. I think that our listeners are going toreally enjoy this conversation. How do folks get a hold of you if they want tofollow up with you after the show? Well come to triplewliquid smarts, plural?Let's, because we have street smarts and their liquid liquid smartcom you'll,see a narcissistic view of of the firm with me is a big picture on it. It'sfairly easy to navigate, go to the website, fill in the contact, FormarAcanispam Ya, on there there's a few other things andthen the email also email works. Gunter, Gu, N ter at liquid smartcom we'rehappy to help you revitalize your comur commercial operations, because we can'tget that technology to the patient without commercial operationssucceeding. We do a very good job for our clients, making sure that you canhave a commercial ops that is working for you and for the marketplace. Awesome. Thank you! So much for yourtime today, thanks fo Roxy, you were delightful. Thank you so much for listening. I knowyou're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market, and Ivalue your time and attention to get the latest episodes on your mobiledevice automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast Tapp,like apple podcast, spotify and...

...stitcher. Thank you for listening, andI appreciate everyone who shared the show with friends and colleagues Seeyouon the next episode of Health Innovator.

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