Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 81 · 9 months ago

How proper positioning increases your chances of success w/ George Makhoul


When it comes to strategies, there are many different types you can utilize when commercializing an innovation.

But what happens when the market throws a curveball you, nor your investors, were expecting?

George Makhoul, CEO and CCO of Biom’up says that with a bit of grit, drive, and belief you can creatively - and successfully - commercialize a product, even during a pandemic.

Whether driving adoption or securing a champion, George explains how, when it all comes down to it, investors simply invest - it’s up to the innovator to work on the commercialization.

Join us on this journey with George as he delivers some tricks and tips his organization has used to continue working toward a successful commercialization in an unpredictable market.

Here are the show highlights:

Three characteristics you need to drive a successful commercialization strategy (2:01)

How you can successfully leverage unexpected setbacks (5:14)

How a hybrid approach to relationship building works in a digital environment (10:30)

Why it’s up to you, not investors, to commercialize for what you want (13:53)

Not being able to drive adoption could be the best problem to have! (21:24)

From concept to commercialization: know your audience (27:19)

Guest Bio

George Makhoul is CEO and CCO of Biom’up, a specialist in collagen-based absorbable medical devices who is committed to making life easier for surgeons and better for patients.

George has taken an over 20 year career in healthcare fields and parlayed it into driving revenue in the Medical Devices, Biologics, and pharmaceutical industries.

His diverse experience in everything from sales leadership to launch execution has been applied to developing new markets and maximizing the success of mature brands.

George earned his BA in Management, Business, Economics, Chemistry, Biosciences and Biology from Monrovia University.   

If you’d like to get in touch with George after the show, feel free to reach out to him via LinkedIn at George Makhoul. 

You're listening to health innovators, apodcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adopters who are shapingthe future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back healthinnovators. On today's episode I have George McCool with me. He isthe US CEO for Biom Up. Welcome to the show, George. Hey, thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here today.Thank you so much. So if you could just for our listeners, tellthem a little bit about your background and what you've been innovating these days.Okay, so, being my name is George mccole and I've been in thehealth can industry for over twenty years, so I've been fortunate enough to havea lot of different roles in sales, sales, marketing, marketing leadership,business, you enterprise leadership, and in the last almost three years I've beenable to be the CU of a smaller startup which is got a distructive technologyin the human stasis world, and I've been lucky enough to work for somegreat companies over the years, like fiser and Genz on and striker, whichhave led me to where I am today and we've we've really stumbled upon avery unique he mystatic agent called hemoblast fellows, and it was approved by the FDAright before two thousand and eighteen and we commercially launched it in two thousandand nineteen. So we've had a great a great trajectory in the time thatwe've launched this and we are going in a market where there's two very,very large competitors who have had a good stronghold in this area of the marketand we've been fortunate to have something that's highly at the Kege, has highlydifferentiated and something that's certains tend to gravitate to more once they started using it. So not going too much more in detail on that intro but it's beena nice run so far, so so. Thank you for that. So itsounds like you've got just a really...

...strong background in all things commercialization,especially around med device. So I'm really excited to kind of dig into someof your experience today. So so, as you think about this commercialization process, what, from your perspective, is is like the number one, themost important strategy for success. So when you think about what it takes todo great in this market place, there's three characteristics you have to really haveand it's drive, grit and belief. And when I talk about these thingsto people it's really key that these are, you're in a characteristics that nobody canreally train you on. You're born with these. And when I talkabout drive, it's you get out of bed in the morning and are youinspired to get up and go to work and be excited about what you're doing? If you have that drive every day where you can't fall asleep or youjust you can't wait to get the sleep, you can get to tomorrow, that'sa real key thing to have right. And then you've got to have thisgrip where, let's just face it, things are not getting any easier inthe medical device world for anybody to have success and it's getting harder hospitals. Once you can solidate best less wrap access and now that things have happenedwith covid nineteen, they want fewer people to interact with anyone in a hospital. So you have to have that grit to be there. And with vendorconsolidation, there's a lot of large companies out there who have good relationships andgood market position. You have to fight them. It takes a lot ofgrit to do that. But then on top of it is, once youhave access, you can get in front of people, you have to demonstratethat belief in what you're doing, what you're promoting, is really something that'sgoing to make a difference in either that surgeon, that patient or that hospitaloutcome. And that belief comes from within and if you have that, peoplewill feel that energy from you and they will just want to listen to youand want to try what you have and...

...those are the things are really youhave to start with that foundation in order to be successful. You know,it's so true. I mean those those three traits are, I think,fundamental no matter what you're trying to commercialize or sell. I mean really,ultimately, no matter what you're trying to do in your career, but evenmore so in healthcare, that it requires this sense of resilience that we mightnot have to have and other industries if you plan to survive. Yeah,you're it's so true, and it's even harder when you're younger in your careerand you're trying to get acclimated to this right because things are starting off alot harder now, or there's people who are more veteran in these roles,where they have the established relationships, they have the contacts, they understand whatit takes to work in these environments, so it's a lot easier for themto navigate the change, or someone who's brand new. They're starting with areally, really large disadvantage compared to some of their peers that I've been doingthis for quite some time. So yeah, like it goes into it. Yeah, starting off in the covid world is a whole different dynamic, differentenvironment. So let's just talk about Covid for a minute, you know.So obviously I would imagine that things have it gone exactly like planned when youguys first launched on two thousand and nineteen. Two Twenty, two thousand and twentyone's been a bit different than anyone could have possibly predicted. And sohow has that affected or has it affected your your commercialization and, you know, your launch and roll out? So when you look at it, everythingwas normal during night time in two thousand and nineteen. You had your offensethat you're going to run. You're running the game plan and you're executing onit. Things are going great and kick off two thousand and twenty and everyone'scharged up because the prior year was such a successful launch, and you've goteveryone is just full of energy in Ers, all this wind pushing you for right. You think these great tail winds,...

...and then January, February, great, and then march hits and all of a sudden things come to agrinding hall. Yeah, very abruptly, and everyone's initially taking in that shockof okay, let's see where this takes us. There's me two weeks,slow down, things are going to happen. Then, of course, naturally thatgets extended and then, the first time, I think in history,probably ever, you saw something that was never going to be occurring, whichwas hospitals were now limiting surgical procedures. I think anybody who's been in thebusiness long enough always said medical device and Pharma student was will recession proof,but we never thought we'd have to talk about them being pandemic proof. Right, right for anything different mindset. So now you're sitting there and wondering,okay, we have surgeons who are rotating shifts, they're at home, they'relimiting numbers of surgical procedures happening because they want to make sure that there's nottoo many beds being taken away from the potential need for I see you's neededright now. The Oars are becoming makeshift. I see it, everything is happeningreal time. Changes were being limplemented in place daily, and now everythingis just all bets are off, all trends are out the windows, andnow you really can't. You can't look back at prior history to figure outhow this is going to play out. Right now, says, we've seen. From then to now you learn a lot more about this virus, howhow it mutates, how it has infected, how it can be prevented, howit can be treated. So things start to change. But one thingthat was really interesting that we learned during this was the definition of an electiveprocedure really changed. Right prior to you think, okay, elective might bea total knee replacement, or I'm going to get this hernia fixed or I'mgoing to have some plastic surgery to reminder things. But then elective became somethingthat wasn't life threatening. So, in other words, right if you needsurgery, but they're not going to terminate...

...if they don't get the surgery soon, so let's delay and let's put we're ties who needs to come in.So you have to think about how that change the whole world, which wecould. We could spend hours talking about right. Yeah, but from ourperspective commercially and talking to a lot of other CEOS who are in similarly situatedbusinesses like ours, we probably lost somewhere between sixty eight months of business.Right. The worst of it was in April and may started to rebound alittle bit. June got better, July had gone well and then August,September through the rest of the year the trajectory just went straight up and thenyou had this second wave. Yeah, so you kicked off January and Februarywith a slowdown, but the slowdown was more geographic. We saw certain pocketsof the country's slow down and then all of a sudden, now, speakingfor US and other folks, marches is taken off tremendously. So fertally feelreally good about where things are going. And as restrictions start to ease morepeople become vaccinated, I think we're in a much better place to manage throughthis process than we were. But during that time we had to start thinkingabout, okay, what can we do differently. Yeah, and make surewe're maintaining some relevant so what we did during that time was we really focuseda lot internally on developing our people working on some different skill sets that theycould use some touch and training on. I think anytime you're in a startupenvironment you are just hitting the accelerator and your goal is to go out thereand touch as many customers as possible and get the word out about what you'retrying to accomplish. Sometimes you don't get to professionally developer people and you don'tneed to do as much of developing your key opinion leaders and other customer targets. Right. So we spent time investing a lot of zoom videos, severala day internally, and then what else we were doing was offering educational platforms. So we did over thirty educational platforms where we could speak to different typesof healthcare providers about our product. Team... stakes as complications of bleeding,and we had a great audience because, as I was alluding to earlier,people were around, they were not working the same shifts and level of hoursthat they normally would on a daytoday basis. So we had a great audience andwe were able to engage a lot of people. So when things startedto open up, it really benefited us and we hit this like a springboardand really started to achieve a lot of our goals much fast than I thoughtanybody had anticipators to do. So so let me ask you, how isthis? You know, did you already have those established relationships? Because whenI hear you describe this strategy tactic of educating, you know, kind ofin the meet in the interim and still being able to deliver value and buildthat rapport build trust, if you're a startup company, you might not alwayshave those connections to be able to get in front of those people. Soso did you guys already have that in place or where's there something else creativelythat you were doing to actually even be able to invite them? So youthink about how you structure these organizations. I think a lot of venture capital, private equity, start up CEOS and operations folks, they always wrestle withhow to structure your organization right. So it's a very similar exercise and discussionsthat happen and always board rooms across the globe. So what do you do? Do you hire very experienced people and go very direct yeah by or experiencecommercialization leaders and go this independent route and try to get really good tuning ninesto help you promote your products, or do you balance at a hybrid?Well, we've done here is we put a hybrid together. So there's otherpeople like myself who have been some industry veterans and have experience in this spaceand the understand these products, these technologies, to understand how to navigate hospitals,the understand what the buying decision process is like and we have a balancewith different ten on nine that are are independent distributors. And we've also beenfortunate enough to as well, to have...

...a retired cardiac surgeon on our team. Is Name is after bill spott. It's he is arguably the most publishedauthor on him is that seelings and he says he has over ninety published papers. So there are tremendous amount of cardiac surgeons who know him well and knowhis work. But even with that said, you never know all of the potentialsurgeons and contacts you're trying to reach. But you have that foundation. Ithink that foundation helps you put together an offense that you can try towork with similar specialty. So did we know everyone that we constantly stayed intouch with? No, but what we did was we used our network,we used the skills from things that we've done in the past and try tohelp us stay top of mine to all of these other people we wanted tointeract with, and that's helped us, because there were a lot of peoplethat we were meeting for the first time on meetings. I remember doing alot of zoom videos introducing myself to a lot of surgeons and I'll just happyto listen to them speak and hear their perspectives and gain their insight when sothere's always sometimes you can go to the folks that you've known for a longtime and you can have really good conversation. So it's just it's striking that balanceand it's not easy, but I think you have to really rely onyour network going into this. But if you're in a group where you don'thave that strong network, you need to have some type of benefit for themwanting to spend time with you, right because, yeah, thirty minutes toan hour of their time right, that's taking away from family, patient,you name it, somewhat. Something else is going to have to give forthat. So there needs to be some type of a value added them.Right. What is the hot button that they're thinking about? What is theissue that you can help solve for them? Yeah, think once you've once youunderstand that, now you can really start to get some traction with people. So so, George, I want to ask you want to kind ofswitch gears to get a bit so you and I were talking earlier and wewere talking about positioning, in how we...

...position the innovation being such a criticalstep to that commercialization process. Talk a little bit about that. What?What? How do you define positioning and how is that impacted your strategy goingforward? So you have to think about this from different angles and I thinkanytime you're coming out of the new product or something that's going to be whata hospital would look like as adding cost or adding another Sku to the inventory, what are you trying to accomplish? Are you in a commodity line whereare you going to bring a quality product at a much lower price point tocreate value? Are you at a unique, niche product that's going to solve sometype of unmet need or you can demand a premium, or are yougoing to have a very good product that can solve needs and it can becompetitively priced so that you're not adding to the healthcare system cost you're finding waysto reduce so you can create efficiencies, you can do different things. Soevery company has to wrestle with that when they're going through this because just gettingan FDA approval, depending on whether you're going through a K process or wehad to go through a PMA, those takes significant time investment and you're workingwith FDA. So sometimes your investors don't have the appetite to give you anythingelse more than the approval of the you're going to find you now you needto go out there and commercializes and anything else you want. EXAGIC, right. That's so it's challenging the pathway where for us in particularly, wanted tolaunch with very good clinical data and have a good story to tell, becausea lot of times you don't get that. So we actually have seven published papersin reputable surgery journals that help us to promote outcomes for our product.But even if we didn't have those, just on our characteristics alone the productis unique enough frighten. There's no mixing,... thawing or refrigeration. Is Simpleto use. It sticks to tissue and it works and it works reallywell. And the FDA indication that the team was able to get is onethat no one else has in their labeling. So that alone was really key inthe strategy and I think you have to start putting these things in mindwhen you're going through your product development stage with your teams of what do youwant to be able to say when the product is approved? So if youdon't have a single published clinical study when it's launched, what are the claimsyou want to be able to make? And you have to incorporate those ina the Rd pathway. And if you can have that foresight early enough fromthe process, then you can hit the ground running. Otherwise, you don'twant to be in a spot where you're you're begging people to try this outand see if it works well. Right. You want to have a way youcan go to people with confidence. And going back to a point yousaid earlier of Hey, what do you do when you've got the established network? Are you tapping into it? That helps you get an entry way intoshowing someone new technology? Yep, but there is a single surgeon on theplanet that I know will use a product that is not adequate, in orinferior. If they've got a relationship with you right, they're not just goingto use something because of what it will do is it will allow you opportunity. Like you, but not that much. I'm not putting any patient at riskor my outcome at risk. Spoil out. There's no way they're goingto do that. But we'll give the opportunity to speak to them at leasthave a good dialog. So I think, I think that the you know,spending just a little bit more time even on the positioning is so importantand I hope that our viewers and listeners, you know, kind of glean ontothis. I talk a lot about when I'm working with clients. Thisnonhealthcare example of something I think most people can relate to, of just thedifference between positioning of like Taco Bell and Chipotli. Yes, you know,when you've got two companies that are going to play in the same space butthey really don't play in the same space.

Right, the buyer for Taco Bellis very different than the buyer for Chipoltli and and they thought really longand hard and strategically about how they position those two when in some ways youmight seem per similar products, for other people it's like, well, no, no, those are not even close to being similar products. And Imean, and I think that same approach is just as critical in healthcare whenwe're talking about this commercialization process, especially for someone like yourself, when you'resaying that you're going up against the market of two really strong incumbents and andif you don't have clarity on the space that you're going to own and beable to communicate that clearly to your target audience, well, it makes itso much more difficult to actually be able to steal market share from them.It's becomes incredibly challenging because again, you hit it right on ahead right.Are you somebody who wants to have a race to the bottom and just sellthe lowest cost Bot and move a lout of volume? Yeah, or doyou want to have something that is reputable, dependable, that you're going to payan okay price for, but you're comfortable with it because you know you'regoing to get what you pay for? And that holds true a lot inthis industry. And when you talk about sometimes sales folks they think automatically asmis simmer from purchasing asks and what price it is, they get very nervousand they almost don't want to even say what they're the price of their trueproduct cost, because they their automatical going to assume that the person is goingto come so expensive you have to do better, which is not right.There everyone's always stream or a better price, but it doesn't mean your price ashigh. And I think sometimes a lot of industry folks will get caughtup in the fact of if they have a product that's, let's say,three or four hundred dollars, they might perceive as being expensive, but theydon't realize the person who they're talking to at this moment is signing Po's andpurchase orders for products that are five hundred and two thousand, five hundred andtwenty hundred, three hundred thousand dollars at a time. But they do agreat job of making you think that you...

...are ruining the entire budget of theoverall. Right, right, so you just have to know what you're goinginto an half confidence in which you're promoting. But it also matters to is who'shelping advocate with you. So if it's just you as the industry person, advocating, you've got a weaker situation to be into. You need tohave that clinician really talk about the benefits of this and champion is for youthrough the process. Otherwise that no one's going to believe your story, nomatter what you tell them, because if there isn't a surge and champion backingyou in this industry, you're really out of luck unless you've got something that'scommonized, that you can commit there and create a value or there's some significantchange to the process in whatever you're going to be working in the operating roomor wherever it may be, that's going to create a major efficiency and it'stangible and recognizable. Right Hospital and it's not a not going to hospitle system. They just don't do a good job on measuring the intangible savings that leadto things. Right like if you say, Hey, this problem is going toreduce your your rate of infection, but we don't know what rate that'sgoing to decrease it by, but doing this will inherently reduce that, it'sa hard sellness you have the tangible study fight and who's investing in that veryfable or doing that? So you have to go through this whole algorithm inprocess of doing things, but it can be done. So to other anglesthat I want to kind of explore with this is, you know, soin healthcare we're usually talking about multiple stakeholders that are involved in the buying process. And so what are you encountering and maybe how are you overcoming this whenyou know you've got a hospital system that may be writing the check and thenyou've got a sergeant that's actually the user right of the tool and being ableto make sure that that you're getting buy in from all of the stakeholders,not just one. Because if the surgeon says yes, they want to useit, can they do? And so how is all that working? Andthen once you get the sale, you...

...know, what are what are yourexperiences when you're trying to actually get adoption for you know, sometimes we assumethat just because a product is better, that it's just going to be soobvious that now it's available, they're just going to start using it. Andone of the things that I see with some clients is that, you know, we've we close the deal, but nobody's actually adopting the solution because they'redo you know, kind of still tied to their old habits and old practices, are old tools that they've been using. So I know I threw a lotout of you, but kind of two levels. Well, you've gottwo really interesting scenaries to have. The second scenarire with the one that weaspire to get to for US personally as an organization that can active once wehave things approved, then it's a lot easier for us to find people whowill want to use these products. But when you talk about what's going on, and it's like you bring up a lot of different instances that happen.So you can pick examples, and I won't mention names of systems, butyou'll have this large idem or large purchasing entity and they'll have several members thatare underneath it and you'll always have these local hospitals or the one off hospitalinside the system that's going to bucket and buy something off of the contract becausethey do believe it's better for their patients. They do have a certain champion whowants it and you can navigate that through. Then you have the othersystem that's Ay, look, we only have one vendor in this category andwe're not going to deviate. Yea even though you might have something in yourcompliance it says they only have to purchase ninety percent of a good room fora card up or something unique or whatever it may be. So you haveto understand how to navigate through that process and you have to keep knocking ondifferent doors in order to find out who's willing to fight hard enough for youto have this in in other words, is have you done a good enoughof a job really finding the right champion, because I think a lot of timesof half into commercial people is that they get fixated on a one individualbecause they have a title and they think they need to get to that personand their lukewarm on whether they want to...

...really fight this battle. Go toa committee meeting, it's going to cancel that the reschedule. They've missed timein or day to keep going and going through that process. It is exhaustingand it's intentionally done by the systems to see how bad that this is.Want to push for a product and they have process, and you know thisvery well. So they know that if you, if they push back onyou hard enough, you're eventually going to give up and forget about this newproduct because you really didn't need it that badly. So you have to dowork and find out who is willing to fight that battle and you have topoint blank ask them. Look, this is what's going to happen. Iknow you're aware of this. Are you willing to do this? Because ifyou're not, we're just not going to have success here. It is healthsystem some of US going to come down to. They can do their job, but now it's going to come back to you, to the negotiating table, and how creative are you willing to get, or you're going to stayvery rigid into okay, every hospital gets this price. They can't get thisdeal unless they do x, Y and Z. and you have to alsobe willing to be flexible in how you structure a deal because every customer purchaseis differently. Every system operates in a different way. You can have somethere's large gpos out there like health trust, for example. I do a greatjob of driving compliance of their contract in vendors. You can find membersin that system who will get the best thing they can for their patients.They will do that and then over time you'll build up enough to man whereyou're going to make enough noise that they want to talk to you about anational agreement and you're finding for those things, but you really have to make surethat you're finding the right people to work with you in this process,because it's not just you asking someone to try the product. Right, butthose days have dissipated tremendously where the surgeon would ask for it, the eitherchargers or Perryop coordinator or the supply champers was ordered the next day. Thosedays almost don't exist anywhere anymore and we have to be really diligent on howwe're doing things and what we're asking for...

...that and then, once you getit in, that's, I think, more than on you as a commercialindividual. Okay, now, how are you engaging the potential users? Canyou get into the hospital and have a reason to be in the operating room? Years ago you would spend time in the operating room, you'd have achance to look at the surgical board, you would know who is operating whenyou've run into them and you get a chance to connect. And that's beingmore restrictive now, especially, I think, with covid and having access. Sowhat else are you doing? Do you have a chance to invest inany live labs where they can do demonstrations. Could avers. Are you doing anyprograms that are of interest for them? Right there's different ways for you engageyour customers and have an opportunity become invited into their rooms and be there. But it's a lot easier to ask somebody to pull the product and tryon their next case tomorrow then it is to ask them, would you mind? Champion is through the value analysis committee process for six months. They're goingto say a lot more yeses to trying it tomorrow when you've already done theleg work in there. So I think if anyone's completing about not being ableto drive adoption, that's the best problem you could have. You're like,that's a win in my book. Oh my goodness. So so what elseyou know? kind of thinking about our audience, there's definitely going to besome other chief commercial officers for Med device companies, but you know they'll bechief innovation officers at hospital systems as well as just other innovators that are inthe trenches. What advice do you have for them going from concept to commercialization? So involve a lot of different stakeholders. So as you're developing your products andthinking about your strategy. Bring in people from all different walks. Don'tjust only limited to surgeons who are innovators and and users. Bring in peoplewho work in supply chain, people who work in contracting, people who arethere in the operating rooms, different charge...

...nurses, different text everyone, anybodywho's going to be you hate to overuse the word stakeholder, but anyone who'sgoing to have a hand in this product, in this process, get their feedbackon how to do it. Because the things you want to think aboutwhen you're in these stages and look some chief commercial officers, some folks whoare in these companies. They're coming into the company to help them and growtheir business. Everything's already been done, so they can't go back and rewind. But if you have those chances to do that, you want to thinkabout, okay, what are we going to price this at? Well,make sure you've done your homework enough to come in price it right, becauseyou don't always get a second chance to come to the negotiating table. Soif you make somebody upset with you in your pricing, they're not going towelcome you back. And he said, Hey, we're not going off twothirty, forty fifty percent. Now they're going to say, well, wherewere you the first time when I was interested? Right, you've got alot to that right. M Don't come to your circulating nurses or your surgicaltech or your assistance and say, okay, we can try to make this moreefficient for you, but can you at least try to muscle through itnow for us? And they're going to say, well, why didn't youask US ahead of time as you were developing this? Did you not talkto a single person who works in the operator room? Right, other repswho either are in that segment or their adjacent to it's they can tell you, look, this is how this works, this is what we do, theseare the challenges we face. Understand that, right. But then sometimesyou're in a situation where you're right into a company and everything's already been builtfor you. So now you have to go out and figure out how todo your job, and that's what you need to get really tight and youhave to set right expectation with people and say, okay, look, thisis the segment we think we can capture. We understand your telling us the marketopportunity here is worth a hundred million dollars if we had all the marketshare. But realistically, of the specialties we're going to play in with whatwe have, say our more opportunity might be five million or ten million,right. That's if we maximize that right. So you want to make sure you'resetting the right expectations because I think...

...many people get enamored with going inand take big company experience and bring it to a start up and they're goingto work, that offensive is going to work. It's not always affective becauseyou know, when you come in these startups you don't have that same levelof resources. You don't have anything massive thieves, right, you are ateam, right, and whoever else is with you, everyone's taking on everyrole and I think you have to make sure that you understand what you're signingup for. But again, it's drive Britain belief. If you have thosecharacteristics, it will propel you through this because you'll find a different pieces ofinformation you don't under uncover. Yeah, I was working with a client nottoo long ago who came from Phillips and then decided to go out and starta startup company innovating something, you know, some kind of met device, ontheir own and wow, you know. You know, just as we workthrough that whole commercialization process, it was like wow, this is sodifferent. I'm used to having a team to go out and do all thestuff for me, like I know high level how to do it, butI'm not the one that's been usually executing that. And now I'm a teamof five and so I'm having to do all of these things that I rollup my sleeve and do all these things that I never had to do beforebecause I don't have the personnel to rely on, because we just don't havethe resources for that. And it's great you have this idea in these ofthe pain. Well, go ahead, after Roxy, you want you toexecute this and get it done, and you're going to say what poll Ineed people, and you don't always have that and I think sometime people doit, but I also think to the folks who are making the hiring forthose rules, they have to do their homework to make sure they're hiring peoplewho have that ability to have a long runway and have those capabilities to dothose things. But you're so spot on with that. Yeah, yeah,well, thank you so much for your time today. It's been a greatconversation very invaluable insights to our audience. How can folks get Ahold of you? If anyone wants to follow up with you after the episode, saven wantsto connect with me, you can reach... on my linkedin page. Itstop private, so you're able to access be if you are in and I'msure they can connect with you and if they want to get in contact withme, then we'll work something out from that stampoint. Okay, sounds great. Thank you so much for joining me today, George. Okay, youhave a great rest of the day and great weekend. Thank you so muchfor listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation tomarket and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodes on yourmobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP likeapple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyonewho shared the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode ofHealth Innovators.

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