Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 105 · 3 weeks ago

Data liberation: The next wave of healthcare innovation w/ Chuck Hazzard, Francesco Lucarelli & Sarah Badahman

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

All data is not created equal. In fact, there is data out there that’s incredibly valuable, but not being used.

Understanding how data shapes strategies and business models can be one of the most important keys to success that a healthcare entrepreneur can access.

On our latest Executive Briefing, we talk to a new panel featuring Francesco Lucarelli, Chief Commercial Officer and Partner at HCB Health, Chuck Hazzard, VP of Wearables and Integrations at Heads Up Health, and Sara Badahman, CEO and Founder of HIPAAtrek. We discussed everything from interoperability to health information exchange (HIEs) to help identify data that can build strategies and tactics which any innovator can deploy in their commercialization process.

It doesn’t matter if you’re a startup entrepreneur or a corporate innovator, there’s gold here - and you just might uncover a bit of wisdom and insight that gives you the edge you need to push your innovation forward. Come and listen to this week’s episode!

Here are the show highlights: 

  • What you need to do in order to find success (2:34)
  • Why you should never “go it alone” (5:52)
  • This is why we identify the need before jumping to technology(7:58)
  • Is it a “you” problem or an industry problem? (9:02)
  • Data validation of business models (16:48)
  • Healthcare and the rule of three (28:59)  

Guest Bios 

Francesco Lucarelli is Chief Commercial Officer and Partner at HCB Health, a full-service marketing agency focused on giving life-changing medicines a voice.

If you’d like to get in touch with Francesco after the show or learn more about HCB Health you can go to their website HCBHealth.com, email him at francesco.lucarelli@hcbhealth.com, or find him on linked in at Francesco Lucarelli.

Chuck Hazzard is VP of Wearables and Integrations at Heads Up Health, a health data analytics company that aggregates lifestyle data to enable healthcare clinics to generate presentations and graphs that increase patient engagement and trust while growing top-line revenue.

If you’d like to get in touch with Chuck after the show, or learn more about Heads Up Health, you can go to their website at HeadsUpHealth.com, email him at chuck@headsuphealth.com, or find him on LinkedIn at Chuck Hazzard.

Sarah Badahman is the CEO and Founder of HIPAAtrek, a one-stop-shop cloud-based platform that streamlines an organization's compliance program and allows it to create, manage and maintain its compliance processes from start to finish.

If you’d like to get in touch with Sarah after the show, or learn more about HIPAAtrek, you can go to their website at HIPAAtrek.com, email her at at sarah@hipaatrek.com, or find her on LinkedIn at Sarah Badahman, CHPSE.

I you're listening to health, innovators,a podcast and video show about the leaders influencers and early a doctorswho are shaping the future of health care. I'm your host Doctor Roxy Movie Welcome Back Health Innovators ontoday's episode. I am sitting down with three incredible health care leadersand innovators and we are doing another executive briefing, a panel discussion.We are flipping it upside down again and we are going to talk about a numberof different strategies and tactics that innovators can deploy in theircommercialization process, whether you are a start up entrepreneur or whetheryou're a corporate innovator. We have some wisdom and insights from ourguests to share with you today. So I would like you all just to introduceyourself say a little bit about your background and what you are innovatingthese days. Francesco set us off great. Thank you.So it's so great to be her doctor oxy! Thank you. So my name is for Cesare,I'm, the chief commercial officer partner of H, CB health, where BoutiqueFull Service Marketing Advertising Communications Company located inAustin Texas. A lot of our work is solved around the solutions for thehealth care Arina, so pharmaceutical companies, as well as medical devicecompanies, we really sort of specialize in emerging companies. So it's the sortof next ter company's next Gen companies, companies that are bringinga first product or first device to market so often times we are workingwith them in terms of their three and five year, commercialization strategyand how to get that device to market or product market. So, looking forward tothe discussion today, awesome welcome sorry, chark hazard of the VP of warbells and integrations and heads up. Health were a digital health, digital,healthy analytics company. We use lifestyle data with medical records andbe labs to help with patient engagement for clinic health, clinics and coaches. That's awesome and Sarah, and me hi. I am Sarah Badman.I am the founder of Hippata, which is a cloud base: Healthcare compliancemanagement, software tool. We are located in St Louis and inMinneapolis Minnesota health care background, which is led meto founding. My very first start up had the track awesome. So you know today'sconversation is going to be about strategies and tactics. You knoweverybody's at different places in this journey, and you know my goal inputting together this show in this group of people today is to you know,just share some wisdom and some guidance for folks to be able to grab agolden nugget from this episode and go...

...back and kind of see what of theimplications and how they might apply that to their own businesses. So Sarah,let's just start off and talk about the Entrepreneur Journey and share yourstory and some of the lessons that you've learned along the way. Oh, my you told me, we only had twentyminutes for the whole episode and you just ask me something that I love totalk about. So I will try to keep this as brief as possible. All right, soHYPOTHEC was founded seven years ago and prior to founding hypotrochoids wasin healthcare administration. I had worked a variety of different roles. Iwas in him at a hospital. I actually worked as an epidemiologist which,thanks to coved everybody, now knows what that is, and I also was aadministrator of a multi disciplinary practice through all of that, I actually saw aproblem, a pain point in need that we had at the the clinic that I wasrunning and I looked for a solution and couldn't find it right. Everything thatI saw was incomplete, cumbersome had like a guy like an interface thatlooked like it was from one thousand nine hundred and eighty five. You know,and so I thought I you know this is a problem I can solve. I'm a subjectmatter expert I can get in and I can actually solve this problem. So in founding the company you know, Idecided founded it a little bit late in my career, so I was in my late is whenI first started hip Atrek, and so I was lucky enough that I had you know andbest meant money of my own- that I had saved a side and a nest egg that Ipulled from to get started, taught myself how to Code and code, the codedthe first iteration of HIP Otrich and released it, and it failed miserably because I amnot a coder. I am a health care executive and I learned that I needed to pull a teamtogether, so I actually launched the firstversion of hypothec from my oldest daughter, who is now twenty Fivee, hercardiac contentive care unit where she was recovering from her second openheart surgery, and I launched the software from there one of the doctorsthat we released it to met me at the hospital and told me. I had a greatidea, but I executed it poorly and introduced me to a camp. Who is my cofounder now and not to worry? There's not a single line of code that I wroteleft Sido Hipata, so it does work now, no more failing code, which is awesome so but along through. All of that, likeI learned that you know, I could do it right. I justneeded the right people, but like standing beside me and helping me topropel the company forward, that I didn't need to know how to do everysingle thing in order to push push forward. I just had to have the ideaand the tenas see it through absolutely so Francesco thinking aboutyou coming from a...

...big corporate background, where some ofthe lessons that you've learned that might be similar or might be differentthan what Sarah's just talking about yeah. I think it's fantastic. I meanone of the things I pick up from what Sir just said was you know the theunderstanding and the willingness to know that you you shouldn't, try to goat all alone right, and I think true leadership shows that you know yousurround yourself with strong and good people that help filling the gaps whereyou don't have it. So that's. I think one of the biggest lines that I wouldcompletely agree with Sarah's experience and I've seen that tooadditionally, and I think, as you think, about bringing something new to market,whether it's a technology, whether it's a product, lot's a device, a drug. Whatnot you know it's the foresight of I always tell teams and and working withclients of you know, consider the end in mind at the beginning. Right, let'swhat's the end point, what's the goal whom or what are we trying to changebehavioral and if that's part of a customer journey, if that's part of apatient experience? Okay, we need to understand that out, come up front tothen define the early stages of that commercial path, and I can go all theway back to you know clinical discovery and lad work and patient reportedoutcomes and thinks of that nature. I've seen I'm sure. We've all witnessedthese things in the past experientially, where that wasn't done, and you knowsomeone felt they brought a great therapeutic or a great technology, oreven a great wearable chuck to the to the end stage and they're ready to nowbring it to market. But there really wasn't, there's really not a need forit or there really is not a true positive outcome for it, so that makesit all the more challenging. So I say to a lot of clients early on when myfirst engagements with them of hope is not a strategy right and they sort ofget a chuckle to it. But it's kind of very true you can't just you know, hopeand kind of stick your finger in the air and say this is going to work. Youreally have to look at it from a pragmatic perspective and understandwhat are we trying to do at the end to kind of bring that pathway all the waythrough? So you know, starting off with a marketneed or a problem, you know just doesn't seem like rocket science right.So what's happening like. Why are we over skipping skipping over this stepof starting with that versus technology? What's happening go had friend now I think.Unfortunately, I think a lot of folks do get tied up too much in their ownverticals and there's a lack of collaboration. There's a lack of Sarah mentioned earlier right. Thesubject matter expert, that's great, but that does not. You know the theJack of all trades master of none versus the subject matter. Expert Right.I think the ideal scenario is when you know Sarah gave a great experience. Sherealized that she learned a lot and could do a lot, but she also realizedwhere she wasn't the expert and she was able to find a partner. That was theexpert I think again it comes down to...

...leadership and it comes down toinnovation and when you think about bringing new products to market againexperientially, what I will. What I will share is that you know I've seensome companies where you get the CEO founder phenomena where they believethey can do every job function and they can't no offense to those out there,but they can't and they struggle with that. But then you see the ones thatare some of the most visionary CEOS and founders and entrepreneurs, and theywill say I am good at this- not ABCD, I'm going to bring in the aexpert to the expert or quite honestly, some of them may not even be an asubject matter expert in what they want to do, but they have a vision and theywill assemble. That team of I know I need an expert here and here and hereand by combining that at that resource by getting over the idea of I have tobe the ego ruler of all. I can bring in those right people that really setsthem off on the right trajectory yeah. It goes even further than that toFrancesco, because one of the things that you said was like, sometimesthere's not even a market fit right. So one of the things that we are, you knowI did it hipate before I even launched it was. I talked to the people. I wasgoing to be selling it to right. Do you even have this need do just because Iexperienced it in the places I worked, didn't mean that that was a universalproblem that was out there. It could have been a Sarah problem versus aproblem that the whole health care industry was experiencing so went outthere and I talked to people right, so I actually worked with a brilliant mannamed Rod Story who kind of helped me to figure it right, so he told it hecalled it Goo right get out of the building where I had to get up and goout and talk to the people that I wanted to buy my software, which wassomething that was super hard for me right. I am like an incredibleintrovert. I did not like talking with people. Iknow people are always surprised about that now, but this is this. Is Sevenyears later, Sara you were to try an before I started hippotas like there's.No way like you, somebody had emailed me and asked me e to do an event likethis. I would have been like. Oh, Oh, no right. We can kind of like massiveaudiences, which I do now on a regular basis on Hippocampi like there is noway I would have done that right, but thanks to like the ground work withthis consultant that I was so fortunate enough to get in touch with and help mefigure out. That process actually helped me to see that there is a marketneed for it, because I did get out of the building and started talking to whoour customers were going to be, and I found that I wasn't alone right, likeit wasn't just a problem I had in my clinic Gar the hospital I was workingat or at the the units that I was working in is when I was doing theepidemiology work. It was literally a problem that was not even localized toSt Louis. It was around the country,...

...hospitals, clinics, long term carefacilities. Everybody was struggling with how to manage their hip ofcompliance and not just kep up, but everything right, managing it throughspreadsheets and through these disjoined processes, and so the morepeople we talk to the more we realized. This problem is a lot bigger than Ithought it was you know like had I found out during that those first earlydays. I would have never even tapped into my nest egg. I would have nevereven gotten off the ground, because my idea would have been a good idea forSara, but not a good idea for the world, and I think that that's something tothat a lot of founders struggle with when they have something that theythink is such a brilliant idea and they're so afraid to go out and talk topeople and look I get it. I was afraid to. I was afraid of rejection. I wasafraid of actually talking to people like, I would drive to a clinic or ahospital that I had a meeting with arrived half an hour early and sit outin my car and give myself a pep talk to even walk inside the building. To Talkto the people. I had set up the meetings with so I get that it's ascary thing, but it's also a very necessary thing, because otherwise,when you get to the point, when you're working with friendes going his teamyou're not going to have anything to pull, to give to them, you're going topay Francesco a ton of money to not go anywhere, and I think to what you justsaid that that I find really interesting is- is I'll use. The wordhumility to describe that. You were humble enough to understand that youhad to find out early on that. I'm willing to shift my baby right. I'mwilling to sort of mould this this clay and the something that may not be whatI'm thinking it needs to be. But what my customers end or my end market needsand, and that's also one of the things I think you know humility has to cometo the table because again I've you know experienced good and bad acrossthe board and when you have the leaders, the founders that can say got a greatidea. Let's perfect it before it goes out to market versus. I've got a greatidea and we're taking this to market. Well that that can be a huge huge mess,and you know I think, that's where it gets back to are you are you a humbleleader that can say somebody's going to help me get down that that course alittle bit smoother, but there's a lot of misconceptions out there to thatpropel founders to take that route. Francesco because, like you see likeall these accelerator programs out there, thatare giving you twenty five to a hundred thousand dollars and like and theirwhole thing is, is like get it done fast, push move faster. You know, andyou see on the news like like companies acquired after five or six years ofbeing in business, and then you know I look at where I'm at and it's like, Ohwow, like I'm, not even close to being acquired. Yet I still got like anotherfive six years before I'll be acquired, you know, and it's like, but thosefounding stories are. Those acquisition stories are not always truthful to whothey are. So you have to think about...

...everything. That's behind that right,because did they start working before they ever incorporated? Did theyconvert from an L C to a sea corpora and then that's their start date, foryou know, there's a whole bunch of stuff that goes behind that. But whenwe don't see that that's what's happening, then we think that that company startedthree years ago and they just had a one billion dollar exit. How that have didthat happen? You know what's wrong with me if I haven't done that exactly youknow, but the thing is is that if they were honest, which was like a hugething right, so when we convert it, we were in ll when we first found it andwe converted to a Secor two thousand and eighteen and we did not restart ourstart date. Right like it's. No, we were founded back in two thousand andfourteen. That's what we're going to stick with people are going to know howlong this journey took us and also to in health care. Nobody wants to workwith new companies like a lot of times to even win a contract. You get to bein business for at least five years, so it didn't help. You know so is multiplereasons why that was important, but it is really important for when you aretrying to start a company to realize that in health care, especially yourjourney is going to take a long time, especially if you want to sell thehospitals, like our fps, are going to have strict requirements upon how youcan actually submit for those r FPS, including a timeline of how long you'rein business and there's nothing you can do to get around it. There's no amountof networking there's no amount of how great your product is. That's so muchbetter than everybody else's. If you don't meet that timeline, you're notgoing to get the RF kind of period right. So it takes time right todevelop like you're, nurturing a living thing, almost straight so conteurs liketo call their businesses their babies. It's true, yeah you're, my course of adog walking around so check. I want to kind of direct toyou and you know we're touching a little bit O on data and and we'retalking about the data that the quality of data or quantity of data thatvalidates our business model or validates our business idea early on, but a lot of what you guys are doing itdata at different stages. So what are some of the lessons that you learn forsomeone? That's coming probably a little bit more greener than the restof us when it comes to health care, so you're, not necessarily an outsider butlike when you look at the ecosystem in the different things that we're talkingabout. What do you observe and then how does data help us in thiscommercialization process? But we've mainly been working with boutiquepractices for the most part of the last year. You know a lot of mar cash paid more recently, a we're seeing more startup companies well funded medical practices going after remotepatient care, because now there are new codes at you get reimbursed for likeblood pressure monitoring,...

Glue coast monitoring. You know that'swhere a lot of the things that are traditionally thought it was consumerdevices can now Lever, be leveraged to generate more revenue, and so that'sthe use of traditionally lifestyle data. For some of these new start up.Companies that are using our platform and as Sara is just messing. We've hadopportunities to sort of get into some of the big hospital networks and thoseare like a year long sale cycle, at least because of all the politics andyou Haf to say we want to use you. You know the people up top want toreview everything five times and make sure it fits. But what we found, though, is for a vastmajority of people in health care, not in the big hospital chain here, they'remore than willing and embraced using lifestyle data to keep in contact withtheir patients with an audit in the hospital or the health clinic, becausethat gate is important is a getting fisted, and you may not know thatunless you are tracking it day to day yeah. I think there's so much data thathappens between the acute visit or the urgent visit, and you know just thetraditional health care ecosystem that a lot of us are missing out on that we're, starting to have a littlebit more interest in accumulating and weavingthat into our ecosystem. Hey, it's dor roxy, here with a quickbreak from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves youneed to make to survive and thrive in the new Co vid economy? I want everyhealth innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy,which is why I created the Co. Vid Proof Your Business Pisoti. The pivotkit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivotstrategies. It walks you throughsix categories. You need to examine for athree hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the sixcritical pivot lenses, as you make your way through this comprehensive kit,you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sureyou can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details andopportunities, learn more at legacy. Hyphen Daco back kid. You know when you touch on patientengagement, a lot of the things that we're talking about do touch patiencein some former fashion and that we might be able to sell our solutions inthis commercialization process. But I find that very often that sometimes wethink of that. As the you know, the finish line, but really being able toget someone to pay for something is very different than getting them to useit and use it on an ongoing basis. Right and adoption is really really incritical to our Ri in the investment...

...that we've made in our success so andpatient engagement is key yeah and that's. That is one of the challengeswhatever like in our. In our case, we provide a solution, a platform, there'sa lot of data. There who's going to look at it. You go into most healthclinics; they don't have time already they're already way, busy they've gotit their EHR or whatever they're have to put date into so you leveraging,like health sotus to took you to people the responsible as the primary point ofcontact for patients works really well and that's wherethere's a true success. The patients feel like they're part of their healthjourney, and not just you know somebody the doctor talks to once a year so think to that chuck and I'm justcurious about it. From from a perspective of you know the termpatient engagement unfortunately has in my mind, yeah coopted, into meaningeverything, and sometimes yes, and when I consider it from my perspective andagain working with with clients, and even you know recently, working on thedevelopment of a device that that's utilized ultimately and staged bypatients directly. You know it's really about what is an engaging element froma patient that you want to do looking at it from perspective of. Is it daytoday? Is it weekly? Is it monthly it? What's the type of condition we'retrying to do, and I think you know Roxy what you said about the data right, weoften times look at like okay, great now, we've collected data, but then itfalls short and not a lot is done with it and I do believe that's where healthcare is catching up to other verticals andother industries. Right I mean you, look across. You know other verticals,you know, big data is paid for handover fist right now. I think that a lot ofthe data and health care, though, is not shared because they're afraid ofhipolite. Honestly, I think it's a I know, butthat is where a lot of it's coming from right, because, like back in my rolewhen I was an epidemiologist like my role, was to gather prevalence ratesfor in stage renal disease and kind of calculate what we thought that that wasgoing to look like in a hundred and three five ten year span right, and soI would go into clinics and I would have to educate them. You know because,like if my job was I'm talking to cardiologist this this month, that Ineed to know of their aht at other hypertension. Patients with blood pressure result at their lastreading of one forty or higher right on their stoliker, and so I would go, andI try to gather this data and they be like they can't share it as like. Iliterally need to know the number you have thirty eight patients with a highpretension of this number. You know I don't need to know any other data. Ineed to know a number and I need to know age ranges like you know, twothousand, a thirty forty to fifty and it's all completely print but great,but because also like they're afraid of...

...hip by number one to share even thatvery innocuous kind of benign information that I'm asking for they'reafraid to share that information. But then also the ers do not make it easyto pull that type of information from right. Because e MRS had like inhealthcare, we haven't had that interoperability requirement. That's inliterally every other sector which we're trying to get there. We have thecure zack now trying cms has pushed out some new regulations around that youknow, but until we have true interoperability, where, like chucksdevices, can talk to the MR in exchange data and it's Mr Agni Yeah in real timelike that type of big data will not be used. So I'm here to tell you it is notagainst tip by to share information so long as you're sharing it within theguidelines of HIPPA and sharing de identified information is one hundredpercent permitted and it is important not just to get better tools out therefor the health care industry to be able to treat your patiens right. So liketools like what check is developing and like the client that Francesca isworking for there on the cutting edge of technology and cannot seem to getthe data that they need in order to push forward, because health caredoesn't want to share that information. It is allowed right, so health care isharming itself by not allowing that information to be free flowing because,like Chuck said that data is the life blood not just to the patient's betterquality of life, but also to the business perspective of the health careindustry as a whole. I mean nosy sounds like you know. When each of us has somespare time between us, we can crack that nut, because I think we do haveall the right parties here to put that piece of puzzle together. But you knowI always look at the the analogy of clinical trial registries right. Theydo that level and I go it's a small scale level, but they do that very welland it's if that model could be replicated and, as you said, across thehrs across wearables. Bringing that in the the the level of aggregate deidentified data could be so universally helpful that not only would there be inmet, or not only with it- the immediate measurable impact to today, but thatcould also feel the next wave of innovation by looking at that by bydoing data cuts and splices and looking at things and, as you said, you knowlooking at it by you name it by age range by by different demo segments byI'll use your your renal disease by looking at hypertension and low Gfr,coupled with you know. So much of that could be done and I do feel like we'rekind of playing the game with you know one hand tied behind our back, if notboth. Well, it's out of fear a lot and out ofa fear of what right fear of hip a fear of losing market share, fear of fill inthe blank. That's why that information's not being shared her oflosing my customers, because they're...

...going to go somewhere else. If I sharethat data with everyone else, you know. So it's almost like there's thisperception that if I don't share the data, then I keep my customers. If I doshare the data I at risk of losing them and we've got to come up with a betterway, a better strategy of keeping customers, then data hostage. Well, I mean in today the the OCRannounced their twentieth settlement for the right of accessinitiative right where hospitals and clinics are actually blocking patientsfrom getting access to their own records, which they have their right toright. So you're on. Why are we giving patients their own data back right?Chuck is smiling he's like yes, it is not only is it against the law.It's like the right thing to do, but in health care I don't know why, but we have a backwards way of thinking,and it's been that way. I mean I've been in health care since pre HIPPAright. So it's been that way. We can't blame it all on hip because it's beenthat way, even since before hippa started, where we were just backwardsin the way that we think about the data that we have belonging to the hospital,not even the doctor itself and not the patient, it belongs to the hospital,doesn't belong to anybody else, but the hospital will be free to share it. If,like Nevadas, comes in and pays them to doit right- or you know, big farm, it comes in and pays them for theirinformation. They'll share it right. So it's like how do we get this more freefling information and we've tried right back in two thousand and nine, likewith the high tech rule like we thought that we were going to get hies healthcare information exchanges. Those fell flat on their faces, we're just nowstarting to see a trickle of hies, but if you're not active in health care,just as a regular patient, you have no idea what an GIE is so like. That's.The next, like billion dollar idea, is how to like curiae that as a privatecommercial business versus as a state run in that's something that's going tocome from the health care ecosystem. Like is so something going to happen.That's going to be the catalyst for this transformation, or is it going tobe some type of heightened heightened awareness and like revolution, oradvocacy among consumers that finally come together, a stand up and say we'renot taking this anymore? It's my Dan, I'm not going to argue with you to getit you're going to pay me if you want it and I think it might be a mix ofboth right so like we can take Tela Health as an example right it took ovid.It took the whole world breaking before health care was like all right. Well,do tell a health visits, I guess Yeah Yeah, you know, and then they let thatgenie out of the bottle and even once they started seeing patients in personagain right. So, like my, I live in southern Illinois like an hour awayfrom St Louis, and I talked to my doctor on tell a health. Now I was likeno not coming in the office is as you...

...need me to, because I can do loud workdown the street at quest. I can get everything done here locally and stillhave you to be my doctor without driving our each way to your officeright, and so I will never go back unless I absolutely have to a right. Soit's kind of like that. It's going to take something like that. I honestlythought the pandemic would help with the HIE systems. I was wrong, but at least got US tell a health andprogress that forward. I think that there is going to have to be some majorevent that occurs for his to actually start to take off. Just like it took aglobal pandemic for Tella health. To start, I think to pick up on that.There's really three things, I'm a big rule of three guys, so I like to to dothat, but I think there's three things imbedded in this. So one way, as yousaid, Dr Oxe, this this idea of fear- it's in my mind, it's kind of ironicwhen you think about it, because as we individualize ourselves as consumersoutside of health care, we give all our data away everywhere and no one bats aneyelash on it. So that that's point one point two. I do agree with what yousaid about you know: sort of the the pandemic kind of getting people to begrudgingly accept, tell a help and cover it and all those things, but butI'm looking at it a little bit more, maybe glass, half full of. I do thinkthat it's maybe just the beginning of the snow ball, and I hope that maybe-and maybe I'm just being wishful, but I'm hopeful that that's going to startto trickle that snowball down hill and then I think the third thing of it andthis may sound a little bit outside the box. But I do believe that he, the more socialized advent of full genomeprofiling and genetic testing, is also going to be advantageous here, becauseI believe that's what is going to push that consumer activation. You know, asyou look at you know, and I'll look at it, particularly from an acolyte. Youknow now, patients can get you know, hole genome or whole EGS on sequencingdone so that they can start to understand, not only if they have acancer diagnosis. You know what team or types what mutational says, so theyhave, but also even some of the prognostic things of you know. You maybe impacted by this and that's going to, hopefully, as that becomes a little bitmore available and a little bit more cost effective. That's going to getpeople to change lifestyle habits, get more of Chucks wearable type oftechnology to better their help. And I'm again, maybe it's me a glass halffull, but I am really hopeful that that's going to get people to be moretaking a part in it and then also be more willing to say. Well, hey if thisday to help me now aggregate day is going to also help me so there's alittle bit of a pay at forward mentality to I'm really hoping that the like digitalhealth cards for the vaccinations becomes a catalyst for that where it'skind of like the first time, when we've kind of have like mass market havingownership of this data point across the board, and it's like okay. Well, it'sreally convenient for me to have this...

...personal health data. Maybe I shouldstart adding some other pieces of data about myself and my family into thiskind of ecosystem that we're just starting to scratch the surface tocreate and- and maybe that will start driving some more adoption and some more changein this. So I know we are at our time here today. We could probably talkabout this for another six hours, and so I want to be mindful of everyone'stime. So if we could just kind of go around,how do folks get a hold of you if they want to follow up with you after theshow start with Francisco, do yeah sure I'llgo around the horn again sure. So, please. If anyone has would like toreach out and learn more about myself or HC health, you can go to our website.HC Healtho. You can reach out to me directly Francesco and it's not an easyname: F, R, a N C E, so dot Lukely Luc, a R E L, L, I T H, Elco, would love tospeak to you and engage and talk more about. This may be some challenges thatyou might be having in your sort of commercialization journey. Thank you. Sarah Trap Chuck Chuck Heads Up Plom, obviouslythe company as heads up beltcom. We have both com, consumer products andhealth care products. Okay, some an me Sarah at Hippata, that'shippo with one P, two as tr Ekom, just like star Trek, but for Hiba, where we have software that helpshealth care organizations administrate their compliance. They can also find meat link on Linkedin Sara with an H and Bateman bad. Ah, an awesome, thank youguys so much and Gal for joining me today when his very rich conversationextracting you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busyworking to bring your life changing innovation to market, and I value yourtime and attention to get the latest episodes on your mobile deviceautomatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast AP, like ApplePodcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening, and I appreciateevery one who shares the show with friends and colleagues, see you on thenext episode of Health, innovator E T.

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