Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 105 · 10 months ago

Data liberation: The next wave of healthcare innovation w/ Chuck Hazzard, Francesco Lucarelli & Sarah Badahman

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

All data is not created equal. In fact, there is data out there that’s incredibly valuable, but not being used.

Understanding how data shapes strategies and business models can be one of the most important keys to success that a healthcare entrepreneur can access.

On our latest Executive Briefing, we talk to a new panel featuring Francesco Lucarelli, Chief Commercial Officer and Partner at HCB Health, Chuck Hazzard, VP of Wearables and Integrations at Heads Up Health, and Sara Badahman, CEO and Founder of HIPAAtrek. We discussed everything from interoperability to health information exchange (HIEs) to help identify data that can build strategies and tactics which any innovator can deploy in their commercialization process.

It doesn’t matter if you’re a startup entrepreneur or a corporate innovator, there’s gold here - and you just might uncover a bit of wisdom and insight that gives you the edge you need to push your innovation forward. Come and listen to this week’s episode!

Here are the show highlights: 

  • What you need to do in order to find success (2:34)
  • Why you should never “go it alone” (5:52)
  • This is why we identify the need before jumping to technology(7:58)
  • Is it a “you” problem or an industry problem? (9:02)
  • Data validation of business models (16:48)
  • Healthcare and the rule of three (28:59)  

Guest Bios 

Francesco Lucarelli is Chief Commercial Officer and Partner at HCB Health, a full-service marketing agency focused on giving life-changing medicines a voice.

If you’d like to get in touch with Francesco after the show or learn more about HCB Health you can go to their website HCBHealth.com, email him at francesco.lucarelli@hcbhealth.com, or find him on linked in at Francesco Lucarelli.

Chuck Hazzard is VP of Wearables and Integrations at Heads Up Health, a health data analytics company that aggregates lifestyle data to enable healthcare clinics to generate presentations and graphs that increase patient engagement and trust while growing top-line revenue.

If you’d like to get in touch with Chuck after the show, or learn more about Heads Up Health, you can go to their website at HeadsUpHealth.com, email him at chuck@headsuphealth.com, or find him on LinkedIn at Chuck Hazzard.

Sarah Badahman is the CEO and Founder of HIPAAtrek, a one-stop-shop cloud-based platform that streamlines an organization's compliance program and allows it to create, manage and maintain its compliance processes from start to finish.

If you’d like to get in touch with Sarah after the show, or learn more about HIPAAtrek, you can go to their website at HIPAAtrek.com, email her at at sarah@hipaatrek.com, or find her on LinkedIn at Sarah Badahman, CHPSE.

You're listening to health innovators, a podcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adoptors who are shaping the future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy. Movie. Welcome back health innovators. On today's episode, I am sitting down with three incredible healthcare leaders and innovators and we are doing another executive briefing, a panel discussion. We are flipping it upside down again and we are going to talk about a number of different strategies and tactics that innovators can deploy in their commercialization process, whether you are a startup entrepreneur or whether you're a corporate innovator. We have some wisdom and insights from our guests to share with you today. So I would like you all just to introduce yourself say a little bit about your background and what you are innovating these days. Francesco set us off great. Thank you. So it's so great to be here, Dr Roxy. Thank you. So my name is Franchessca Louk re Eli on, the Chief Commercial Officer and partner of HCB health. We're Boutique Full Service Marketing, Advertising Communications Company located in Austin, Texas. A lot of our work is solved around the solutions for the healthcare arena, so pharmaceutical companies as well as medical device companies. We really sort of specialize in emerging companies. So it's the sort of next tier companies, next Gen Company and these companies that are bringing a first product or first device to market. So oftentimes we are working with them in terms of their three and five your commercialization strategy and how to get that device to market or product market. So looking forward to the discussion today. Awesome, welcome. Thanks. Sorry, check hazard of the VP of werebels and integrations and heads up health, where a digital health and digital health analytics company. We use lifestyle data with medical records and labs to help with patient engagement for clinic health, clinics in coaches. Welcome, awesome, and Sarah and me's hi. I am Sarah Badman. I am the founder of Hippo Trek, which is a cloud based healthcare compliance management software tool. We are located in St Louis and in Minneapolis Minnesota. The healthcare background which is led me to founding my very first startup, hitpo truck. Awesome. So you know, today's conversation is going to be about strategies and tactics. You know, everybody's at different places in this journey and you know, my goal in putting together this show in this group of people today is to, you know, just share some wisdom and some guidance for folks to be able to grab a golden nugget from this episode and go...

...back and kind of see how what are the implications and how they might apply that to their own businesses. So, Sarah, let's just start off and talk about the entrepreneurial journey and share your story and some of the lessons that you've learned along the way. Oh my you told me we only have twenty minutes for the whole episode. It just asked me something that I love to talk about, so I will try to keep this as Freefe as possible. All right, so hippo truck was founded seven years ago and prior to founding HIPPOTRUK, I was in healthcare administration. I had worked a variety of different roles. I was in him at a hospital. I actually worked as an epidemiologist, which, thanks to covid everybody now knows what that is, and I also was an administrator of a multidisciplinary practice. Through all of that. I actually saw a problem of pain, point in need that we had at the the clinic that I was running and I looked for a solution and couldn't find it right. Everything that I saw was incomplete cumbersome. Had like a Gooy, like an interface that looked like it was from one thousand nine hundred and eighty five, you know, and so I thought I you know, this is a problem I can solve. I'm a subject matter expert, I can get in and I can actually solve this problem. So in founding the company, you know, I decided founded it a little bit late in my career, so is in my late s when I first started hippo truc, and so I was lucky enough that I had, you know, and best met money of my own that I had saved aside and a nest egg that I pulled from to get started. taught myself how to Code and code the coded the first iteration of Hippo Truk and released it and it failed miserably because I am not a coder. I am a healthcare executive and I learned that I needed to pull a team together. So I actually launched the first version of Hippo Truk from my oldest daughter, who's now twenty five, her cardiac intensive care unit where she was recovering from her second open heart surgery, and I launched the software from there. One of the doctors that we released it to met me at the hospital and told me I had a great idea but I executed it poorly, and introduced me to Ed camp who is my cofounder now. and not to worry, there's not a single line of code that I wrote left the side of hippo truck. So it does work now. No more failing code, which is awesome. So, but along through all of that, like, I learned that, you know, I could do it right. I just needed the right people bought like standing beside me and helping me to propel the company forward, that I didn't need to know how to do every single thing in order to push push forward. I just had to have the idea and the tenacity to see it through. Absolutely. So, Francesco, thinking about you coming from a big corporate background, where are...

...some of the lessons that you've learned that might be similar or might be different than what Sarah's just talking about? Yeah, I think it's fantastic. I mean one of the things I pick up from what Sarah just said was, you know, the the understanding and the willingness to know that you you shouldn't try to go at all alone, right, and I think true leadership shows that, you know, you surround yourself with strong and good people that help fill in the gaps where you don't have it. So that's, I think, one of the biggest lines that I would completely agree with Sarah's experience and I've seen that too. Additionally, and I think as you think about bringing something new to market, whether it's a technology, whether it's a product, where it's a device, a drug, whatnot, you know, it's the foresight of I always tell teams and working with clients of you know, consider the end in mind at the beginning. Right, let's what's The endpoint? What's the goal? Whom or what are we trying to change behaviorally? And if that's part of a customer journey, if that's part of a patient experience, okay, we need to understand that outcome up front to then define the early stages of that commercial path. And that can go all the way back to, you know, clinical discovery and lab work and patient reported outcomes and thinks of that nature. I've seen, I'm sure we've all witnessed these things in the past experientially where that wasn't done and, you know, someone felt they brought a great therapeutic or a great technology or even a great wearable chuck to the to the end stage and they're ready to now bring it to market, but there really wasn't. There's really not a need for it or there really is not a true positive outcome for it. So that makes it all the more challenging. So I say to a lot of clients early on, one of my first engagements with them, of hope is not a strategy, right, and they sort of get a chuckle to it, but it's kind of very true. You can't just, you know, hope and kind of stick your finger in the air and say this is going to work. You really have to look at it from a pragmatic perspective and understand what are we trying to do at the end to kind of bring that pathway all the way through. So, you know, starting off with a market need or problem, you know, just doesn't seem like rocket science, right. So what's happening? Like? Why are we over skipping, skipping over this step of starting with that versus technology. What's happening, good friend? Now, I think, unfortunately, I think a lot of folks do get tied up too much in their own verticals and there's a lack of collaboration. There's a lack of Sarah mentioned earlier, right, the subject matter expert. That's great, but that does not, you know, the the Jack of all trades, master of none, versus the subject matter expert. Right. I think the the ideal scenario is when, you know, Sarah gave a great experience, she really realize that she learned a lot and could do a lot, but she also realized where she wasn't the expert and she was able to find a partner that was the expert. I think again, it comes down to leadership...

...and it comes down to innovation and when you think about bringing new products to market, again, experientially, what I will what I will share is that, you know, I've seen some companies where you get the CEO founder phenomena where they believe they can do every job function and they can't. No offense to those out there, but they can't and they struggle with that. But then you see the ones that are some of the most visionary CEOS and founders and entrepreneurs and they will say, I am good at this, not ABCD, I'm going to bring in the a expert of the expert or, quite honestly, some of them may not even be a subject matter expert and what they want to do, but they have a vision and they will assemble that team of I know I need an expert here and here and here, and by combining that, that that resource, by getting over the idea of I have to be the ego ruler of all, I can bring in those right people. That really sets them off on the right trajectory. Yeah, I think it goes even further than that, to Francisco, because one of the things that you said was like sometimes there's not even a market fit. Right. So one of the things that we are you know, I did a hip, a track before I even launched it was I talked to the people I was going to be selling it to. Right, do you even have this neat, do you? Just because I experienced it in the places I worked didn't mean that that was a universal problem that was out there. It could have been a Sarah problem versus a problem that the whole healthcare industry was experiencing. So we went out there and I talked to people. Right. So I actually worked with a brilliant man named Ron Story who kind of helped me to figure it right. So he told it, he called it Goo right get out of the building where I had to get up and go out and talk to the people that I wanted to buy my software, which was something that was super hard for me. Right. I am like an incredible introvert. I did not like talking with people. I know people are always surprised about that now, but this is this is seven years later, Sarah. If you were to try before I started hip a truck, like there's no way, like, if somebody had emailed me and asked me to do an event like this, I would have been like, Oh, oh, no, right, you can kind of like massive audiences, which I do now on a regular basis on hippo compliance. Like there was no way I would have done that, right. But thanks to like the ground work with this consultant that I was so fortunate enough to get in touch with and help me figure out, that process actually helped me to see that there is a market need for it, because I did get out of the building and started talking to who our customers were going to be, and I found that I wasn't alone. Right like, it wasn't just a problem I had in my clinic or the hospital I was working at or at the units that I was working and is when I was doing the epidemiology work. It was literally a problem that was not even localized to St Louis. It was around the country.

Hospitals, clinics, long term care facilities, everybody was struggling with how to manage their hippo compliance, and not just hippa but everything right, managing it through spreadsheets and through these disjointed processes. And so the more people we talked to, the more we realized this problem is a lot bigger than I thought it was, you know. But had I found out during that those first early days, I would have never even tapped into my nest egg. I would have never even gotten off the ground, because my idea would have been a good idea for Sarah but not a good idea for the world. And I think that that's something too, that a lot of founders struggle with when they have something that they think is such a brilliant idea and they're so afraid to go out and talk to people. And Look, I get it. I was afraid to, I was afraid of rejection, I was afraid of actually talking to people. Like I would drive to a clinic or a hospital that I had a meeting with, arrived half an hour early and sit out in my car and give myself a pep talk to even walk inside the building way to talk to the people I had set up the meetings with. So I get that. It's a scary thing, but it's also a very necessary thing, because otherwise, when you get to the point when you're working with Francesco and his team, you're not going to have anything to pull to give to them. You're going to pay Francesco a ton of money to not go anywhere. And I think to what you just said that I find really interesting is is, I'll use the word humility to describe that. You were humble enough to understand that you had to find out early on that I'm willing to shift my my baby right. I'm willing to sort of mold this this clay and the something that may not be what I'm thinking it needs to be, but what my customers and or my end market needs and and that's also one of the things I think. You know, humility has to come to the table because again, I've, you know, experienced getting bad across the board. And when you have the the leaders, the founders that can say got a great idea, let's perfect it before it goes out to market, versus I've got a great idea and we're taking this to market, well, that that can be a huge, huge miss and, you know, I think that's where it gets back to or you are you a humble leader that can say somebody's going to help me get down that horse a little bit smoother. But there's a lot of misconceptions out there to that propel founders to take that route, Francesco, because, like you see, like all these accelerator programs out there that are giving you twenty five to a hundred thousand dollars and like in their whole thing is is like get it done fast, push, move faster, you know, and you see on the news, I like, companies acquired after five or six years of being in business and then, you know, I look at where I'm at and it's like, Oh now, like I'm not even close to being acquired yet. I still got like another five, six years before I'll be acquired, you know, and it's like, but those founding stories are those acquisition stories are not always truthful to who they are. So you had to think about everything that's behind that,...

...right, because did they start working before they ever incorporated? Did they convert from an LLC to a sea corpor and then that's their start date for you know, there's a whole bunch of stuff that goes behind that. But when we don't see that that's what's happening, then we think that that company started three years ago and they just had a one billion dollar exit. How the heck did that happen? You knowhing's wrong with me if I haven't done that exactly. You know. But the thing is is like if they were honest, which was like a huge thing, right. So when we converted, we were in LLC when we first found it, and we converted to a Steak Corp in two thousand and eighteen and we did not restart our start date right, like it's no, we were founded back in two thousand and fourteen. That's what we're going to stick with. People are going to know how long this journey took us and also to in healthcare, and nobody wants to work with new companies. Like a lot of times to even win a contract yet to be in business were at least five years. So it didn't help out, you know. So there's multiple reasons why that was important, but it is really important for when you are trying to start a company to realize that in healthcare especially, your journey is going to take a long time, especially if you want to sell. The hospitals, like our FPS, are going to have strict requirements upon how you can actually submit for those rfps, including a timeline of how long you're in business, and there's nothing you can do to get around it. There's no amount of networking, there's no amount of how great your product is that's so much better than everybody else's. If you don't meet that timeline, you're not going to get the RFP kind of period. All right. So it takes time great to develop, like you're nurturing a living thing, almost right. So entrepreneurs like to call their businesses their babies. It's true. Yeah, you're my horse of a dog walking around. So check. I want to kind of direct to you, and you know we're touching a little bit of on data and in we're talking about the data that the qualitative data or quantitative data that validates our business model or validates our business idea early on. But a lot of what you guys are doing at data at different stages. So what are some of the lessons that you learn for someone that's coming probably a little bit more greener than the rest of us when it comes to healthcare, so you're not necessarily an outsider, but like when you look at the ecosystem in the different things that we're talking about, what do you observe? And then how does data help us in this commercialization process? We've mainly been working with boutique practices for the most part of the last year, you know, a lot of more cash paid. More recently we're seeing more startup companies. Well funded medical practice is going after remote patient care because now there are new codes so get reimbursed for like Blood Pressure Monitoring, glucose monitoring, you know, and that's where a lot of...

...the things that are traditionally thought it as consumer devices can now leverage, be leverage to generate more revenue, and so that's the use of traditionally lifestyle data for some of these new startup companies that are using our platform and, as Sarah's just messining, we've had opportunities to sort of get into some of the big hospital networks and those are like a yearlong sales cycle at least because of all the politics and need. If they say we'd want to use you know the people up top want to review everything five times and make sure it fits. But what we found, though, is for a vast majority of people in healthcare, not in the big hospital chain, there more than willing and in embrace using lifestyle data to keep into contact with their patients with a not in the hospital or the health clinic, because that date is important. Is it getting whish the then you may not know that unless you're tracking it daytoday. Yeah, I think there's so much touch data that happens between the acute visit or the urgent visit and you know, just the traditional healthcare ecosystem that a lot of us are missing out on that we're starting to have a little bit more interest in accumulating and weaving that into our ecosystem. Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy. I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities. Learn more at legacy and DNACOM backslash kit. You know, when you touch on patient engagement, a lot of the things that we're talking about do touch patients in some former fashion and that we might be able to sell our solutions in this commercialization process, but I find that very often that sometimes we think of that as the you know, the finish line, but really being able to get someone to pay for something is very different than getting them to use it and use it on an ongoing basis. Right, and adoption is really, really and critical to our Ur lie and the Investment that we've made in our...

...success. So and patient engagement is key. Yeah, and that's it is one of the challenges whatever, like in our in our case, we provide a solution of platform. There's a lot of data there. Who's going to look at it? You go into most health clinics, they don't have time already, they're already way busy. They've got it their HR or whatever their hath to put date into. So you leveraging like health coches, to be the people, they're responsible as the primary point of contact for patients, works really well and that's where this true success. The patients feel like they're part of their health journey and not just, you know, somebody the doctor talks to once a year. So think to that, chuck, and I'm just curious about it from from a perspective of you know, the term patient engagement unfortunately, has, in my mind, yeah, coopted into meaning everything and sometimes yes, and when I consider it from my perspective and again, working with with clients and even, you know, recently, working on the development of a device that's that's utilize ultimately and page by patients directly. You know, it's really about what is in engaging element from a patient that you want to do, looking at it from perspective of is it day to day? Is it weekly, isn't monthly? What's the type of condition we're trying to do? And I think you know Roxy what you said about the data, right. We oftentimes looked at like okay, great, now we've collected data, but then it falls short and not a lot is done with it. And I do believe that's where healthcare is catching up to other verticals and other industries right. I mean you look across you know other verticals, you know big data is paid for handover fist. Right now. I think that a lot of the data and healthcare, though, is not shared because they're afraid of hippo like. Honestly, I think you've Aa, I know, but that is where a lot of it's coming from, right because, like back in my role, when I was an epidemiologists, like my role was to gather prevalence rates for in stage renal disease in kind of calculate what we thought that that was going to look like in a one hundred and thirty five ten year span, right, and so I would go into clinics and I would have to educate them, you know, because I get my job was I'm talking to cardiologists this this month, that I need to know all of their ht all their hypertension patients with blood pressure result at their last reading of one hundred and forty or higher right on their stallic and so I would go and I try to get out of this data and they be like they can't share it. As like I literally need to know the number. You have thirty eight patients with a high pertension of this number. You know, I don't need to know any other data, I need to know a number and I need to know age ranges, like you know, twenty to thirty, forty to fifty, and it's all completely different. But Great. But because also, like there are afraid of hippo number one, to share even that very...

...innocuous kind of by nine information that I'm asking for. They're afraid to share that information. But then also the emrs do not make it easy to pull that type of information from right, because EMRS has in healthcare. We haven't had that interoperability requirement. That's in literally every other sector which we're trying to get there. We have the cures act now trying. CMS has pushed out some new regulations around that, you know, but until we have true interoperability, we're like Chuck's devices can talk to the Emr and exchange data and it's Emr and I yeah, in real time like that type of big data will not be used. So I'm here to tell you it is not against Tippa to share information so long as you're sharing it within the guidelines of hippop and sharing d identified information is one hundred percent permitted and it is important not just to get better tools out there for the healthcare industry to be able to treat your patients right. So like tools like what check is developing in, like the client set Francesco is working where they're on the cutting edge of technology and cannot seem to get the data that they need in order to push forward because healthcare doesn't want to share the information it is allowed right. So healthcare is harming itself by not allowing that information to be free flowing because, like chucks that that data is the life blood not just to the patients better quality of life, but also to the business perspective of the healthcare industry as a whole. I mean when I say sounds like, you know, when each of us has some spare time between us, we can crack that nut, because I think we do have all the right parties here to put that piece of the puzzle together. But you know, I always look at the the analogy of clinical trial registries. Right, they do that level, and I got it's a small scale level, but they do that very well and it's if that model could be replicated and, as you said, across the hrs, across wearables, bring that in the the the level of aggregate d identified data could be so universally helpful that not only would there be in met or not only would there be immediate, measurable impact to today, but that could also fuel the next wave of innovation. By looking at that, by by doing data cuts and splices and looking at things and, as you said, you know, looking at it by you name it, by age range, by by different demo segments, by, I'll use your your renal disease, by looking at hypertension and Lowe gfar coupled with you know, so much of that could be done and I do feel like we're kind of playing the game with, you know, one hand tied behind our back, if not both. Well, it's out of fear a lot, and out of and fear of what right? Fear of HIPP A, fear of losing market share, fear of filling the blank. That's why that information is not being shared. Ear of losing my my customers, because they're going to go somewhere else if I...

...share that data with everyone else, you know. So it's almost like there's this perception that if I don't share the data, then I keep my customers, if I do share the data, I'm at risk of losing them, and we've got to come up with a better way, a better strategy of keeping customers then data hostage. Well, I mean in today the the OCR announced their twenty settlement for the right of access initiative, right where hospitals and clinics are actually blocking patients from getting access to their own records, which they have their right to write. So your one. Why are we giving patients their own data back? Right? Chuck is smiling. He's like yes, and it is. Not only is it against the law, it's like the right thing to do, but in healthcare, I don't know why, but we have a backwards way of thinking and it's been that way. I mean I've been in healthcare since pre Hippah, right, so it's been that way. We can't believe it all on hippo because it's been that way even since before Hippah started, where we were just backwards in the way that we think about the data that we have belonging to the hospital, not even the doctor itself and not the patient. It belongs to the hospital. Doesn't belong to anybody else. But the hospital will be free to share it. If, like nevadas comes in and pay them to do it right, or, you know, big farm it comes in and base them for their information, they'll share it right. So it's like how do we get this more free flowing information? And we've tried right back in two thousand and nine, like with the high tech rule, like we thought that we were going to get hiese healthcare information exchanges. Those fell flat on their faces. We're just now starting to see a trickle of his. But if you're not active in healthcare, it just as a regular patient, you have no idea what an Hie is. So like that's the next like billion dollar. Idea is how to like create that as a private commercial business versus as a state run age. I think that's something that's going to come from the healthcare ecosystem. Like is some something going to happen that's going to be the catalyst for this transformation, or is it going to be some type of heightened, heightened awareness, in like revolution or advocacy among consumers that finally come together a stand up and say we're not taking this anymore, it's my dam. I'm not going to argue with you to get it. You're going to pay me if you want it. And I think it might be a mix of both. Right. So, like we can take tell a health as an example. Right, it took Ovid it took the whole world breaking before healthcare was like all right, we'll do tell a health visits, I guess, yeah, you know, and then they let that genie out of the bottle and even once they started seeing patients in person again. Right. So, like my I live in southern Illinois, like an hour away from St Louis, and I talk to my doctor and tell a health. Now I was like Nope, not coming in the office and less you need me to, because I can do lab work...

...down the street at quest I can get everything done here locally and still have you be my doctor without driving our each way to your office, right, and so I will never go back unless I absolutely have to. All right, so it's kind of like that. It's going to take something like that. I honestly thought the pandemic would help with the HIE systems. I was wrong, but it at least got us tell a health and progress that forward. I think that there is going to have to be some major event that occurs for Hie's to actually start to take off, just like it took a global pandemic for tell a health to start. All right, I think, to pick up on that, there's really three things on a big rule of three guys. So I like to yeah, you do that, but I think there's three things embedded in this. So one way, as you said, Dr Oxy, to this this idea of fear. It's in my mind, it's kind of ironic when you think about it, because as we individualize ourselves up as consumers outside of healthcare, we give all our data away everywhere and no one bats an eyelash on it. So that's point one. Point two, I do agree with what you said about, you know, sort of the pandemic, kind of getting people to begrudgingly accept tell a help and cover it and all those things. But I'm looking at it a little bit more, maybe glass half full, of I do think that's it's maybe just the beginning of the snowball and I hope the maybe, and maybe I'm just being wishful, but I'm hopeful that that's going to start to trickle that snowball downhill. And then I think the third thing of it, and this may sound a little bit outside the box, but I do believe that the the the more socialized advent of full genomic profiling and genetic testing is also going to be advantageous here, because I believe that's what is going to push that consumer activation. You know, as you look at you know, and I'll look at it particular from an oncology perspective, you know, now patients can get, you know, whole genome or whole exone sequencing done so that they can start to understand not only if they have a cancer diagnosis, you know, what humor types, what mutational status so they have, but also even some of the prognostic things of you know you may be impacted by this and that's going to hopefully, as that becomes a little bit more available and a little bit more cost effective, that's going to get people to change lifestyle habits, get more of Chuck's wearable type of technology to better their health. And I'm again, maybe it's me a glass half full, but I am really hopeful that that's going to get people to be more taking a part in it and then also be more willing to say will hey, if this day to help me, now aggregate day is going to also help me. So there's a little bit of a pay it forward mentality to I'm really hoping that the like digital health cards for the vaccinations becomes a catalyst for that, where it's kind of like the first time we've kind of have like mass market having ownership of this data point across the board and it's like, okay, well, it's really convenient for me to have this personal health data, maybe I should start...

...adding some other pieces of data about myself and my family into this kind of ecosystem that we're just starting to scratch the surface to create, and maybe that will start driving some more adoption and some more change in this so I know we are at our time here today. We could probably talk about this for another six hours and so I want to be mindful of everyone's time. So if we could just kind of go around how to folks get a hold of you if they want to follow up with you after the show? Start with Francisco Don Yeah, sure, I'll go around the horn again. Sure. So please. If anyone has would like to reach out and learn more about myself or HCB health, you can go to our website, HCB healthcom. You can reach out to me directly. Francesco, and it's not an easy named FRA A and CESCO, dot Lucarelli, Lu see are Ellli at HC helpcom. Would love to speak to you and engage and talk more about this, maybe some challenge that you might be having in your sort of commercialization journey. Thank you. Sarah Truck Chuck Chuck at heads up helpcom. Obviously the company is heads up helpcom. We have both consumer products in healthcare products. Okay, awesome. And Me, Sarah, at Hippo trukcom. That's hippo with one key two as Turkcom, just like star Truk but for HIPPA, where we have software that helps healthcare organizations administrate their compliance. They can also find me at linked on Linkedin Sarah with an H and Bataman be Adah, a man awesome. Thank you, guys so much, and Gal for joining me today. It's very rich conversation. Thanks Roxy. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who shared the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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