Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 105 · 2 months ago

Data liberation: The next wave of healthcare innovation w/ Chuck Hazzard, Francesco Lucarelli & Sarah Badahman


All data is not created equal. In fact, there is data out there that’s incredibly valuable, but not being used.

Understanding how data shapes strategies and business models can be one of the most important keys to success that a healthcare entrepreneur can access.

On our latest Executive Briefing, we talk to a new panel featuring Francesco Lucarelli, Chief Commercial Officer and Partner at HCB Health, Chuck Hazzard, VP of Wearables and Integrations at Heads Up Health, and Sara Badahman, CEO and Founder of HIPAAtrek. We discussed everything from interoperability to health information exchange (HIEs) to help identify data that can build strategies and tactics which any innovator can deploy in their commercialization process.

It doesn’t matter if you’re a startup entrepreneur or a corporate innovator, there’s gold here - and you just might uncover a bit of wisdom and insight that gives you the edge you need to push your innovation forward. Come and listen to this week’s episode!

Here are the show highlights: 

  • What you need to do in order to find success (2:34)
  • Why you should never “go it alone” (5:52)
  • This is why we identify the need before jumping to technology(7:58)
  • Is it a “you” problem or an industry problem? (9:02)
  • Data validation of business models (16:48)
  • Healthcare and the rule of three (28:59)  

Guest Bios 

Francesco Lucarelli is Chief Commercial Officer and Partner at HCB Health, a full-service marketing agency focused on giving life-changing medicines a voice.

If you’d like to get in touch with Francesco after the show or learn more about HCB Health you can go to their website, email him at, or find him on linked in at Francesco Lucarelli.

Chuck Hazzard is VP of Wearables and Integrations at Heads Up Health, a health data analytics company that aggregates lifestyle data to enable healthcare clinics to generate presentations and graphs that increase patient engagement and trust while growing top-line revenue.

If you’d like to get in touch with Chuck after the show, or learn more about Heads Up Health, you can go to their website at, email him at, or find him on LinkedIn at Chuck Hazzard.

Sarah Badahman is the CEO and Founder of HIPAAtrek, a one-stop-shop cloud-based platform that streamlines an organization's compliance program and allows it to create, manage and maintain its compliance processes from start to finish.

If you’d like to get in touch with Sarah after the show, or learn more about HIPAAtrek, you can go to their website at, email her at at, or find her on LinkedIn at Sarah Badahman, CHPSE.

You're listening to health innovators, apodcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adoptors who are shapingthe future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy. Movie. Welcome backhealth innovators. On today's episode, I am sitting down with three incrediblehealthcare leaders and innovators and we are doing another executive briefing, a panel discussion. We are flipping it upside down again and we are going to talk abouta number of different strategies and tactics that innovators can deploy in their commercialization process, whether you are a startup entrepreneur or whether you're a corporate innovator. Wehave some wisdom and insights from our guests to share with you today. SoI would like you all just to introduce yourself say a little bit about yourbackground and what you are innovating these days. Francesco set us off great. Thankyou. So it's so great to be here, Dr Roxy. Thankyou. So my name is Franchessca Louk re Eli on, the Chief CommercialOfficer and partner of HCB health. We're Boutique Full Service Marketing, Advertising CommunicationsCompany located in Austin, Texas. A lot of our work is solved aroundthe solutions for the healthcare arena, so pharmaceutical companies as well as medical devicecompanies. We really sort of specialize in emerging companies. So it's the sortof next tier companies, next Gen Company and these companies that are bringing afirst product or first device to market. So oftentimes we are working with themin terms of their three and five your commercialization strategy and how to get thatdevice to market or product market. So looking forward to the discussion today.Awesome, welcome. Thanks. Sorry, check hazard of the VP of werebelsand integrations and heads up health, where a digital health and digital health analyticscompany. We use lifestyle data with medical records and labs to help with patientengagement for clinic health, clinics in coaches. Welcome, awesome, and Sarah andme's hi. I am Sarah Badman. I am the founder of Hippo Trek, which is a cloud based healthcare compliance management software tool. We arelocated in St Louis and in Minneapolis Minnesota. The healthcare background which is led meto founding my very first startup, hitpo truck. Awesome. So youknow, today's conversation is going to be about strategies and tactics. You know, everybody's at different places in this journey and you know, my goal inputting together this show in this group of people today is to, you know, just share some wisdom and some guidance for folks to be able to graba golden nugget from this episode and go...

...back and kind of see how whatare the implications and how they might apply that to their own businesses. So, Sarah, let's just start off and talk about the entrepreneurial journey and shareyour story and some of the lessons that you've learned along the way. Ohmy you told me we only have twenty minutes for the whole episode. Itjust asked me something that I love to talk about, so I will tryto keep this as Freefe as possible. All right, so hippo truck wasfounded seven years ago and prior to founding HIPPOTRUK, I was in healthcare administration. I had worked a variety of different roles. I was in him ata hospital. I actually worked as an epidemiologist, which, thanks to covideverybody now knows what that is, and I also was an administrator of amultidisciplinary practice. Through all of that. I actually saw a problem of pain, point in need that we had at the the clinic that I was runningand I looked for a solution and couldn't find it right. Everything that Isaw was incomplete cumbersome. Had like a Gooy, like an interface that lookedlike it was from one thousand nine hundred and eighty five, you know,and so I thought I you know, this is a problem I can solve. I'm a subject matter expert, I can get in and I can actuallysolve this problem. So in founding the company, you know, I decidedfounded it a little bit late in my career, so is in my lates when I first started hippo truc, and so I was lucky enough thatI had, you know, and best met money of my own that Ihad saved aside and a nest egg that I pulled from to get started.taught myself how to Code and code the coded the first iteration of Hippo Trukand released it and it failed miserably because I am not a coder. Iam a healthcare executive and I learned that I needed to pull a team together. So I actually launched the first version of Hippo Truk from my oldest daughter, who's now twenty five, her cardiac intensive care unit where she was recoveringfrom her second open heart surgery, and I launched the software from there.One of the doctors that we released it to met me at the hospital andtold me I had a great idea but I executed it poorly, and introducedme to Ed camp who is my cofounder now. and not to worry,there's not a single line of code that I wrote left the side of hippotruck. So it does work now. No more failing code, which isawesome. So, but along through all of that, like, I learnedthat, you know, I could do it right. I just needed theright people bought like standing beside me and helping me to propel the company forward, that I didn't need to know how to do every single thing in orderto push push forward. I just had to have the idea and the tenacityto see it through. Absolutely. So, Francesco, thinking about you coming froma big corporate background, where are...

...some of the lessons that you've learnedthat might be similar or might be different than what Sarah's just talking about?Yeah, I think it's fantastic. I mean one of the things I pickup from what Sarah just said was, you know, the the understanding andthe willingness to know that you you shouldn't try to go at all alone,right, and I think true leadership shows that, you know, you surroundyourself with strong and good people that help fill in the gaps where you don'thave it. So that's, I think, one of the biggest lines that Iwould completely agree with Sarah's experience and I've seen that too. Additionally,and I think as you think about bringing something new to market, whether it'sa technology, whether it's a product, where it's a device, a drug, whatnot, you know, it's the foresight of I always tell teams andworking with clients of you know, consider the end in mind at the beginning. Right, let's what's The endpoint? What's the goal? Whom or whatare we trying to change behaviorally? And if that's part of a customer journey, if that's part of a patient experience, okay, we need to understand thatoutcome up front to then define the early stages of that commercial path.And that can go all the way back to, you know, clinical discoveryand lab work and patient reported outcomes and thinks of that nature. I've seen, I'm sure we've all witnessed these things in the past experientially where that wasn'tdone and, you know, someone felt they brought a great therapeutic or agreat technology or even a great wearable chuck to the to the end stage andthey're ready to now bring it to market, but there really wasn't. There's reallynot a need for it or there really is not a true positive outcomefor it. So that makes it all the more challenging. So I sayto a lot of clients early on, one of my first engagements with them, of hope is not a strategy, right, and they sort of geta chuckle to it, but it's kind of very true. You can't just, you know, hope and kind of stick your finger in the air andsay this is going to work. You really have to look at it froma pragmatic perspective and understand what are we trying to do at the end tokind of bring that pathway all the way through. So, you know,starting off with a market need or problem, you know, just doesn't seem likerocket science, right. So what's happening? Like? Why are weover skipping, skipping over this step of starting with that versus technology. What'shappening, good friend? Now, I think, unfortunately, I think alot of folks do get tied up too much in their own verticals and there'sa lack of collaboration. There's a lack of Sarah mentioned earlier, right,the subject matter expert. That's great, but that does not, you know, the the Jack of all trades, master of none, versus the subjectmatter expert. Right. I think the the ideal scenario is when, youknow, Sarah gave a great experience, she really realize that she learned alot and could do a lot, but she also realized where she wasn't theexpert and she was able to find a partner that was the expert. Ithink again, it comes down to leadership...

...and it comes down to innovation andwhen you think about bringing new products to market, again, experientially, whatI will what I will share is that, you know, I've seen some companieswhere you get the CEO founder phenomena where they believe they can do everyjob function and they can't. No offense to those out there, but theycan't and they struggle with that. But then you see the ones that aresome of the most visionary CEOS and founders and entrepreneurs and they will say,I am good at this, not ABCD, I'm going to bring in the aexpert of the expert or, quite honestly, some of them may noteven be a subject matter expert and what they want to do, but theyhave a vision and they will assemble that team of I know I need anexpert here and here and here, and by combining that, that that resource, by getting over the idea of I have to be the ego ruler ofall, I can bring in those right people. That really sets them offon the right trajectory. Yeah, I think it goes even further than that, to Francisco, because one of the things that you said was like sometimesthere's not even a market fit. Right. So one of the things that weare you know, I did a hip, a track before I evenlaunched it was I talked to the people I was going to be selling itto. Right, do you even have this neat, do you? Justbecause I experienced it in the places I worked didn't mean that that was auniversal problem that was out there. It could have been a Sarah problem versusa problem that the whole healthcare industry was experiencing. So we went out thereand I talked to people. Right. So I actually worked with a brilliantman named Ron Story who kind of helped me to figure it right. Sohe told it, he called it Goo right get out of the building whereI had to get up and go out and talk to the people that Iwanted to buy my software, which was something that was super hard for me. Right. I am like an incredible introvert. I did not like talkingwith people. I know people are always surprised about that now, but thisis this is seven years later, Sarah. If you were to try before Istarted hip a truck, like there's no way, like, if somebodyhad emailed me and asked me to do an event like this, I wouldhave been like, Oh, oh, no, right, you can kindof like massive audiences, which I do now on a regular basis on hippocompliance. Like there was no way I would have done that, right.But thanks to like the ground work with this consultant that I was so fortunateenough to get in touch with and help me figure out, that process actuallyhelped me to see that there is a market need for it, because Idid get out of the building and started talking to who our customers were goingto be, and I found that I wasn't alone. Right like, itwasn't just a problem I had in my clinic or the hospital I was workingat or at the units that I was working and is when I was doingthe epidemiology work. It was literally a problem that was not even localized toSt Louis. It was around the country.

Hospitals, clinics, long term carefacilities, everybody was struggling with how to manage their hippo compliance, andnot just hippa but everything right, managing it through spreadsheets and through these disjointedprocesses. And so the more people we talked to, the more we realizedthis problem is a lot bigger than I thought it was, you know.But had I found out during that those first early days, I would havenever even tapped into my nest egg. I would have never even gotten offthe ground, because my idea would have been a good idea for Sarah butnot a good idea for the world. And I think that that's something too, that a lot of founders struggle with when they have something that they thinkis such a brilliant idea and they're so afraid to go out and talk topeople. And Look, I get it. I was afraid to, I wasafraid of rejection, I was afraid of actually talking to people. LikeI would drive to a clinic or a hospital that I had a meeting with, arrived half an hour early and sit out in my car and give myselfa pep talk to even walk inside the building way to talk to the peopleI had set up the meetings with. So I get that. It's ascary thing, but it's also a very necessary thing, because otherwise, whenyou get to the point when you're working with Francesco and his team, you'renot going to have anything to pull to give to them. You're going topay Francesco a ton of money to not go anywhere. And I think towhat you just said that I find really interesting is is, I'll use theword humility to describe that. You were humble enough to understand that you hadto find out early on that I'm willing to shift my my baby right.I'm willing to sort of mold this this clay and the something that may notbe what I'm thinking it needs to be, but what my customers and or myend market needs and and that's also one of the things I think.You know, humility has to come to the table because again, I've,you know, experienced getting bad across the board. And when you have thethe leaders, the founders that can say got a great idea, let's perfectit before it goes out to market, versus I've got a great idea andwe're taking this to market, well, that that can be a huge,huge miss and, you know, I think that's where it gets back toor you are you a humble leader that can say somebody's going to help meget down that horse a little bit smoother. But there's a lot of misconceptions outthere to that propel founders to take that route, Francesco, because,like you see, like all these accelerator programs out there that are giving youtwenty five to a hundred thousand dollars and like in their whole thing is islike get it done fast, push, move faster, you know, andyou see on the news, I like, companies acquired after five or six yearsof being in business and then, you know, I look at whereI'm at and it's like, Oh now, like I'm not even close to beingacquired yet. I still got like another five, six years before I'llbe acquired, you know, and it's like, but those founding stories arethose acquisition stories are not always truthful to who they are. So you hadto think about everything that's behind that,...

...right, because did they start workingbefore they ever incorporated? Did they convert from an LLC to a sea corporand then that's their start date for you know, there's a whole bunch ofstuff that goes behind that. But when we don't see that that's what's happening, then we think that that company started three years ago and they just hada one billion dollar exit. How the heck did that happen? You knowhing'swrong with me if I haven't done that exactly. You know. But thething is is like if they were honest, which was like a huge thing,right. So when we converted, we were in LLC when we firstfound it, and we converted to a Steak Corp in two thousand and eighteenand we did not restart our start date right, like it's no, wewere founded back in two thousand and fourteen. That's what we're going to stick with. People are going to know how long this journey took us and alsoto in healthcare, and nobody wants to work with new companies. Like alot of times to even win a contract yet to be in business were atleast five years. So it didn't help out, you know. So there'smultiple reasons why that was important, but it is really important for when youare trying to start a company to realize that in healthcare especially, your journeyis going to take a long time, especially if you want to sell.The hospitals, like our FPS, are going to have strict requirements upon howyou can actually submit for those rfps, including a timeline of how long you'rein business, and there's nothing you can do to get around it. There'sno amount of networking, there's no amount of how great your product is that'sso much better than everybody else's. If you don't meet that timeline, you'renot going to get the RFP kind of period. All right. So ittakes time great to develop, like you're nurturing a living thing, almost right. So entrepreneurs like to call their businesses their babies. It's true. Yeah, you're my horse of a dog walking around. So check. I wantto kind of direct to you, and you know we're touching a little bitof on data and in we're talking about the data that the qualitative data orquantitative data that validates our business model or validates our business idea early on.But a lot of what you guys are doing at data at different stages.So what are some of the lessons that you learn for someone that's coming probablya little bit more greener than the rest of us when it comes to healthcare, so you're not necessarily an outsider, but like when you look at theecosystem in the different things that we're talking about, what do you observe?And then how does data help us in this commercialization process? We've mainly beenworking with boutique practices for the most part of the last year, you know, a lot of more cash paid. More recently we're seeing more startup companies. Well funded medical practice is going after remote patient care because now there arenew codes so get reimbursed for like Blood Pressure Monitoring, glucose monitoring, youknow, and that's where a lot of...

...the things that are traditionally thought itas consumer devices can now leverage, be leverage to generate more revenue, andso that's the use of traditionally lifestyle data for some of these new startup companiesthat are using our platform and, as Sarah's just messining, we've had opportunitiesto sort of get into some of the big hospital networks and those are likea yearlong sales cycle at least because of all the politics and need. Ifthey say we'd want to use you know the people up top want to revieweverything five times and make sure it fits. But what we found, though,is for a vast majority of people in healthcare, not in the bighospital chain, there more than willing and in embrace using lifestyle data to keepinto contact with their patients with a not in the hospital or the health clinic, because that date is important. Is it getting whish the then you maynot know that unless you're tracking it daytoday. Yeah, I think there's so muchtouch data that happens between the acute visit or the urgent visit and youknow, just the traditional healthcare ecosystem that a lot of us are missing outon that we're starting to have a little bit more interest in accumulating and weavingthat into our ecosystem. Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick breakfrom the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need tomake to survive and thrive in the new covid economy. I want every healthinnovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why Icreated the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step bystep framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks youthrough six categories you need to examine for a three hundred and sixty degree viewof your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As youmake your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools,tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missingout on critical details and opportunities. Learn more at legacy and DNACOM backslash kit. You know, when you touch on patient engagement, a lot of thethings that we're talking about do touch patients in some former fashion and that wemight be able to sell our solutions in this commercialization process, but I findthat very often that sometimes we think of that as the you know, thefinish line, but really being able to get someone to pay for something isvery different than getting them to use it and use it on an ongoing basis. Right, and adoption is really, really and critical to our Ur lieand the Investment that we've made in our...

...success. So and patient engagement iskey. Yeah, and that's it is one of the challenges whatever, likein our in our case, we provide a solution of platform. There's alot of data there. Who's going to look at it? You go intomost health clinics, they don't have time already, they're already way busy.They've got it their HR or whatever their hath to put date into. Soyou leveraging like health coches, to be the people, they're responsible as theprimary point of contact for patients, works really well and that's where this truesuccess. The patients feel like they're part of their health journey and not just, you know, somebody the doctor talks to once a year. So thinkto that, chuck, and I'm just curious about it from from a perspectiveof you know, the term patient engagement unfortunately, has, in my mind, yeah, coopted into meaning everything and sometimes yes, and when I considerit from my perspective and again, working with with clients and even, youknow, recently, working on the development of a device that's that's utilize ultimatelyand page by patients directly. You know, it's really about what is in engagingelement from a patient that you want to do, looking at it fromperspective of is it day to day? Is it weekly, isn't monthly?What's the type of condition we're trying to do? And I think you knowRoxy what you said about the data, right. We oftentimes looked at likeokay, great, now we've collected data, but then it falls short and nota lot is done with it. And I do believe that's where healthcareis catching up to other verticals and other industries right. I mean you lookacross you know other verticals, you know big data is paid for handover fist. Right now. I think that a lot of the data and healthcare,though, is not shared because they're afraid of hippo like. Honestly, Ithink you've Aa, I know, but that is where a lot of it'scoming from, right because, like back in my role, when I wasan epidemiologists, like my role was to gather prevalence rates for in stage renaldisease in kind of calculate what we thought that that was going to look likein a one hundred and thirty five ten year span, right, and soI would go into clinics and I would have to educate them, you know, because I get my job was I'm talking to cardiologists this this month,that I need to know all of their ht all their hypertension patients with bloodpressure result at their last reading of one hundred and forty or higher right ontheir stallic and so I would go and I try to get out of thisdata and they be like they can't share it. As like I literally needto know the number. You have thirty eight patients with a high pertension ofthis number. You know, I don't need to know any other data,I need to know a number and I need to know age ranges, likeyou know, twenty to thirty, forty to fifty, and it's all completelydifferent. But Great. But because also, like there are afraid of hippo numberone, to share even that very...

...innocuous kind of by nine information thatI'm asking for. They're afraid to share that information. But then also theemrs do not make it easy to pull that type of information from right,because EMRS has in healthcare. We haven't had that interoperability requirement. That's inliterally every other sector which we're trying to get there. We have the curesact now trying. CMS has pushed out some new regulations around that, youknow, but until we have true interoperability, we're like Chuck's devices can talk tothe Emr and exchange data and it's Emr and I yeah, in realtime like that type of big data will not be used. So I'm hereto tell you it is not against Tippa to share information so long as you'resharing it within the guidelines of hippop and sharing d identified information is one hundredpercent permitted and it is important not just to get better tools out there forthe healthcare industry to be able to treat your patients right. So like toolslike what check is developing in, like the client set Francesco is working wherethey're on the cutting edge of technology and cannot seem to get the data thatthey need in order to push forward because healthcare doesn't want to share the informationit is allowed right. So healthcare is harming itself by not allowing that informationto be free flowing because, like chucks that that data is the life bloodnot just to the patients better quality of life, but also to the businessperspective of the healthcare industry as a whole. I mean when I say sounds like, you know, when each of us has some spare time between us, we can crack that nut, because I think we do have all theright parties here to put that piece of the puzzle together. But you know, I always look at the the analogy of clinical trial registries. Right,they do that level, and I got it's a small scale level, butthey do that very well and it's if that model could be replicated and,as you said, across the hrs, across wearables, bring that in thethe the level of aggregate d identified data could be so universally helpful that notonly would there be in met or not only would there be immediate, measurableimpact to today, but that could also fuel the next wave of innovation.By looking at that, by by doing data cuts and splices and looking atthings and, as you said, you know, looking at it by youname it, by age range, by by different demo segments, by,I'll use your your renal disease, by looking at hypertension and Lowe gfar coupledwith you know, so much of that could be done and I do feellike we're kind of playing the game with, you know, one hand tied behindour back, if not both. Well, it's out of fear alot, and out of and fear of what right? Fear of HIPP A, fear of losing market share, fear of filling the blank. That's whythat information is not being shared. Ear of losing my my customers, becausethey're going to go somewhere else if I...

...share that data with everyone else,you know. So it's almost like there's this perception that if I don't sharethe data, then I keep my customers, if I do share the data,I'm at risk of losing them, and we've got to come up witha better way, a better strategy of keeping customers then data hostage. Well, I mean in today the the OCR announced their twenty settlement for the rightof access initiative, right where hospitals and clinics are actually blocking patients from gettingaccess to their own records, which they have their right to write. Soyour one. Why are we giving patients their own data back? Right?Chuck is smiling. He's like yes, and it is. Not only isit against the law, it's like the right thing to do, but inhealthcare, I don't know why, but we have a backwards way of thinkingand it's been that way. I mean I've been in healthcare since pre Hippah, right, so it's been that way. We can't believe it all on hippobecause it's been that way even since before Hippah started, where we werejust backwards in the way that we think about the data that we have belongingto the hospital, not even the doctor itself and not the patient. Itbelongs to the hospital. Doesn't belong to anybody else. But the hospital willbe free to share it. If, like nevadas comes in and pay themto do it right, or, you know, big farm it comes inand base them for their information, they'll share it right. So it's likehow do we get this more free flowing information? And we've tried right backin two thousand and nine, like with the high tech rule, like wethought that we were going to get hiese healthcare information exchanges. Those fell flaton their faces. We're just now starting to see a trickle of his.But if you're not active in healthcare, it just as a regular patient,you have no idea what an Hie is. So like that's the next like billiondollar. Idea is how to like create that as a private commercial businessversus as a state run age. I think that's something that's going to comefrom the healthcare ecosystem. Like is some something going to happen that's going tobe the catalyst for this transformation, or is it going to be some typeof heightened, heightened awareness, in like revolution or advocacy among consumers that finallycome together a stand up and say we're not taking this anymore, it's mydam. I'm not going to argue with you to get it. You're goingto pay me if you want it. And I think it might be amix of both. Right. So, like we can take tell a healthas an example. Right, it took Ovid it took the whole world breakingbefore healthcare was like all right, we'll do tell a health visits, Iguess, yeah, you know, and then they let that genie out ofthe bottle and even once they started seeing patients in person again. Right.So, like my I live in southern Illinois, like an hour away fromSt Louis, and I talk to my doctor and tell a health. NowI was like Nope, not coming in the office and less you need meto, because I can do lab work...

...down the street at quest I canget everything done here locally and still have you be my doctor without driving oureach way to your office, right, and so I will never go backunless I absolutely have to. All right, so it's kind of like that.It's going to take something like that. I honestly thought the pandemic would helpwith the HIE systems. I was wrong, but it at least gotus tell a health and progress that forward. I think that there is going tohave to be some major event that occurs for Hie's to actually start totake off, just like it took a global pandemic for tell a health tostart. All right, I think, to pick up on that, there'sreally three things on a big rule of three guys. So I like toyeah, you do that, but I think there's three things embedded in this. So one way, as you said, Dr Oxy, to this this ideaof fear. It's in my mind, it's kind of ironic when you thinkabout it, because as we individualize ourselves up as consumers outside of healthcare, we give all our data away everywhere and no one bats an eyelash onit. So that's point one. Point two, I do agree with whatyou said about, you know, sort of the pandemic, kind of gettingpeople to begrudgingly accept tell a help and cover it and all those things.But I'm looking at it a little bit more, maybe glass half full,of I do think that's it's maybe just the beginning of the snowball and Ihope the maybe, and maybe I'm just being wishful, but I'm hopeful thatthat's going to start to trickle that snowball downhill. And then I think thethird thing of it, and this may sound a little bit outside the box, but I do believe that the the the more socialized advent of full genomicprofiling and genetic testing is also going to be advantageous here, because I believethat's what is going to push that consumer activation. You know, as youlook at you know, and I'll look at it particular from an oncology perspective, you know, now patients can get, you know, whole genome or wholeexone sequencing done so that they can start to understand not only if theyhave a cancer diagnosis, you know, what humor types, what mutational statusso they have, but also even some of the prognostic things of you knowyou may be impacted by this and that's going to hopefully, as that becomesa little bit more available and a little bit more cost effective, that's goingto get people to change lifestyle habits, get more of Chuck's wearable type oftechnology to better their health. And I'm again, maybe it's me a glasshalf full, but I am really hopeful that that's going to get people tobe more taking a part in it and then also be more willing to saywill hey, if this day to help me, now aggregate day is goingto also help me. So there's a little bit of a pay it forwardmentality to I'm really hoping that the like digital health cards for the vaccinations becomesa catalyst for that, where it's kind of like the first time we've kindof have like mass market having ownership of this data point across the board andit's like, okay, well, it's really convenient for me to have thispersonal health data, maybe I should start...

...adding some other pieces of data aboutmyself and my family into this kind of ecosystem that we're just starting to scratchthe surface to create, and maybe that will start driving some more adoption andsome more change in this so I know we are at our time here today. We could probably talk about this for another six hours and so I wantto be mindful of everyone's time. So if we could just kind of goaround how to folks get a hold of you if they want to follow upwith you after the show? Start with Francisco Don Yeah, sure, I'llgo around the horn again. Sure. So please. If anyone has wouldlike to reach out and learn more about myself or HCB health, you cango to our website, HCB healthcom. You can reach out to me directly. Francesco, and it's not an easy named FRA A and CESCO, dotLucarelli, Lu see are Ellli at HC helpcom. Would love to speak toyou and engage and talk more about this, maybe some challenge that you might behaving in your sort of commercialization journey. Thank you. Sarah Truck Chuck Chuckat heads up helpcom. Obviously the company is heads up helpcom. Wehave both consumer products in healthcare products. Okay, awesome. And Me,Sarah, at Hippo trukcom. That's hippo with one key two as Turkcom,just like star Truk but for HIPPA, where we have software that helps healthcareorganizations administrate their compliance. They can also find me at linked on Linkedin Sarahwith an H and Bataman be Adah, a man awesome. Thank you,guys so much, and Gal for joining me today. It's very rich conversation. Thanks Roxy. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. Iknow you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I valueyour time and attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device,automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotifyand stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who shared the showwith friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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