Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 108 · 9 months ago

Uncovering problem and solution fit on a startup budget w/ Eric Dai


“If you build it, they will come” only works in baseball. The truth is if you build it and they don’t know about it, you’ll never be seen.

Eric Dai from Bio Launch at the University of Pennsylvania knows a few things about establishing problem and solution awareness - and how that works with product-market fit

One of the keys to being “seen” is by helping people first. You’ll never make money if you’re not providing a product or service that fills a need or solves a problem.

Intrigued? We were. So we invited Eric to come on the show and talk to us about the enormous impact transparency, positivity, and balanced relationships have on problem-solution awareness.

If you’re a budding entrepreneur, this episode has your name written all over it!

Here are the show highlights: 

  • Why we need to do the right things for the right reasons (10:30)
  • The positive effects of purpose-driven organizations (12:30)
  • How value propositions and building relationships affect funding (18:52)
  • The importance of knowing your value proposition’s sweet spot (22:17)
  • Do you have problem-solution awareness? (26:55)
  • This HUGE company killed it on co-creation (29:04) 

Guest Bio 

Eric Dai is a venture associate at Pillar VC/Petri and co-founder and Managing Director for Bio Launch, the University of Pennsylvania’s first student-run biotech accelerator.

He’s also co-founder and host of Behind Biotech, a podcast that shares the stories of the innovative science and leaders behind biotech to educate and inspire future leaders in the life sciences.

Eric uses his experience and expertise in technical problem-solving to fuel his passion for bringing people together. He’s out to change the world for the better.

If you’d like more information about Bio Launch, you can contact Eric directly at or you can find him on LinkedIn at Eric Dai. 

You're listening to health innovators, a podcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adopters who are shaping the future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back to the show health innovators. On today's episode I'm sitting down with Eric Day. He is a venture associate at pillar VC. He's also the CO founder and managing director for bio launch. Welcome to the show, Eric. Thanks. Were great to have it's great to be here. D Roxy. Yeah, great to have you here. So I always like to start off by having my guest share a little bit about your background and what you've been doing these days, just to kind of give our audience a little bit of context for our conversation today. Yeah, so it's wonderful to be here and I think I can break myself down into maybe two main components that describe who I am as a person. The first one is the work I do in science in the second one is the work I do in and working together with other people, so connecting people. So I can talk first about my science. I've kind of been a lifelong scientist. I am a PhD student in bioengineering at the University of Pennsylvania and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and I'm in the lab of Robert Mack where I study stem cell engineering for regenerative medicine. And so what that basically means is stem cells are these cells with three putency. They can turn into many different kinds of cells, and the question that we have in our up is what guides that word pot can see, how do you turn a cell from a naive state into a terminal or differentiated state or a functional state? And so I'm by answering those questions we can then I'm start to guide cells in a more guided manner, are more targeted manner, towards specific behaviors to regenerate a lost or damage or somehow misfunctioning dissues in the body. And so in our lob we specifically focus on the orthopedic Muscle scoutial system, so looking at systems like your joints and your spine to take stem cells and then hopefully regenerate these previously kind of unregenerable, are unhealable tissues. So that's kind of the focus of my work in the lab and it's aging kind of yeah, yeah, exact. It's some new joints. Eric I couldn't we all? Yeah, I'm hitting about age where it's starting to become real to me, you know, joint pain and things like that. So yeah, my parents are definitely there too. So it's something that really affects a lot of people. It's probably something that I think it's the second or third most prevalent disease is, behind kind of like heart disease and cancer. So super, super big, super big deals in the unit states in around the world. Yeah, so the other part of my background is my work in business. Are Working really bringing people together. So I've been really fortunate to do my PhD at the University Pennsylvania, which has the Warton School of business. So we have a really strong community for kind of biotech business on campus and I got involved at that pretty early on my phd when I realize it is something that I could become good at and something I could get excited about. And so my work there has spent a lot of different areas, but most recently it's been and two main ones, which is in a biotic accelerator. Helped launch at pain, so that's...

...called pen bio launch, and we recently actually became nucleate phillies or part of the National Organisation called Nucleate, which are really proud of. It's a reganization that brings over a thousand people across United States, spanning researchers, physicians, entrepreneurs, investors from some of the top firms and some of the top universities, and we bring them all together to certain new companies in biotech. So it's something that we're really excited about and and we're really passion about building. And the other thing that I'm involved in is I'm a venture associate ad pillar BC and specifically in the bio arm of pillar BC, which is Petrie and and there we invest in a kind of transformational technologies and invents inventors at the interest working at the intersection of biology and engineering to help solve some really important and impactful questions in healthcare, sustainability and other spaces. So so lots of exciting things happen. I can see the common thread that's woven between all of those initiatives, but each one kind of gives you a different angle on things. Going back to pin bio launch, you know there are so many accelerators and incubators already throughout the country. So you know from your perspective, what's still missing and what is something that maybe you know, this accelerator or incubator brings to the market place that kind of meets that on met need or fills that gap? Yeah, that's that's an amazing question. I think it's one that's definitely worth addressing. I think what pen by a launch and what is now nucleate really serves to address is that unmet layer between academia and industry. And what I say by that? What I mean by that is that, you know, some of the most cutting edge innovative science in the world is happening. Happening in our academic university labs, and so these are PhD students, these are postdocs from these are physicians who are going into the lab and doing some incredible research, but because they don't have that business training, the they don't have that business backgrounds and they don't know what's possible with their research when it comes time to take that research and turn it into something that really has a practical impact on the world through through patient care, through new therapeutic discovery, through new dowd diagnostics, so and so forth. They don't know how to answer that question. Is What we're finding time and time again, and so, looking at this problem in this white space in kind of the the intersection between academia and industry, we decided to create something that was really targeted towards specifically academics, I. You know, towards those PC students post docs, and then create an opportunity for them to get involved in entrepreneurship during their PhD are during their post doc, without having to kind of leave their programs. And so they don't have to make that hunt deer to hundred leap into entrepreneurship and they can tied it out first and and meet, make connections, understand what the process is like and start to build a company without leaving their PhD A postock. You know, that's that's so important and I think it's a conversation that we don't have enough is be able to bridge this gap between research and practice. You know, there's a whole lot of very experienced...

...entrepreneurs and innovators out there that, you know, don't always apply the latest in science and business acumen or commercialization expertise. And then, you know, very often I'll hear you know, Oh, you really don't want to pilot with anybody in academia, because they're just trying to publish a paper. It's not something that's going to be commercialized, and so it's nice to you know, kind of think of being able to bridge these two in a more meaningful way. Yeah, absolutely, and it's something that I think has been a long time coming, but at the time is now. I think what we're seeing with the pandemic is that, first, biotech is more than ever one of the driving forces of innovation and change in society. Right, the COVID nineteen vaccines or only possible because of the cutting edge science that is happening at universities and a big farm of companies for decades at this point, and that was just a convergence of all these things coming together. You know, the the Maderna and fiser vaccines took lesson a week to develop in the lab. Right, they tested less in a week. Development took just a few months or Pero, which is unprecedented timelines, and I think that's a kind of thing we're going to be seeing more and more going forwards, when to be seeing unprecedented time lines discovery and approval for drugs. I'm not just in invectous diseases, but also in cancer and Alzheimer's. I'm recently an Alzheimer's of Actine, where I was put into face when trials so so exciting to think of the idea that, you know, in fifty years you could eradicate disease like cancer and Alzheimer's and and heart disease and any number of other things that plague us as a as a civilization. Yeah, you know, it really would be incredible to truly transform the health of the nation of the world. That's the yeah, meaningful way. I talked a lot about the statistic that ninety five percent of innovations that are brought to market failed. They fail to reach any adequate level of customer adoption or financial Roi and and so, you know, that's actually kind of how I got into my career path in the last decade is really trying to figure out why. What's going on and kind of to your point, is is that you've got all these innovations that are going to be brought to market and if majority of the of them are going to be unsuccessful, we've got a problem. How do we fix that? And I think this bridge between academia and business practice is definitely a big step in that right direction. A totally, totally yeah. I think what we saw from the Chech worlds in the two thousands up to the mid two tens is such an explosion of startups and the specifically, it's a very specific kind of stereotype or archetype that you're seeing from the start of founders. Generally they're younger, generally they don't they don't even necessarily have a batress scree they might have dropped out of Undergrad and they're doing something that's extremely bold and extremely visionary, and I think that's the same kind of trend we're seeing now in biotech and the kind of trend that we're trying to really foster and amplify, which is...

...looking at these bold young founders who don't have a preconceived notion of what's possible or once not possible in the world of biotech. Because I'm once you become a season better in our executive in a big farm a company, or I me you've worked in a hospital for many decades, of course you have experience, very valuable experience, might add, but what's missing might be that sense of optimism and that sense of hope about what hasn't been imagined yet, and so I think that's what we're seeing in biotech now, is is this new way of founders who haven't been, you know, jaded yet by industry and have a chance to go and do something really inventive and unique and innovative. Yeah, and I mean I think sometimes we just get fat and lazy. Quite honestly, that happens. I mean, you know, we've just we have a lot of success on our belt and you know, we just kind of like a coasting along with the status quo, and so it's definitely nice to see an injection of new energy and enthusiasm to kind of reignite what can be that that's certainly happening. You know, one of the things that stands out to me when we were, you know, talking earlier, you mentioned the word kindness, and that is I've talked to hundreds of innovators, I've done hundreds of interviews and I've never had an entrepreneur talk about kindness and in in their it being one of their personal goals or professional goals. So let's just peel that back a little bit. Why is that word so meaningful to you? And how is it playing out in you know, personally and professionally? Yeah, I think kindness and probably more more descriptive of even goodness, I think, are some of the most important traits that you can have. Is Not so eric, we were talking earlier and you mentioned the word kindness, and that is a word that I don't hear very often. I've had conversations with hundreds of innovators and have, you know, hundreds of guests on the show and it's very rare that I hear someone talking about kindness and how that might fit into their personal and professional goals or even in the commercialization process. So just kind of give our audience a little bit of color around what you mean by that and how that's playing a role in what you're doing. Yeah, so, Dr Roxey, that's a great question. I think that's so important to dress because it's not talked about enough, which is the role of kindness or probably more descriptively, goodness, and the value of our work. I think for anyone WHO's out there looking to make ambitious goals make an impact, it has to come first from a place where you're making impact for the right reasons. And what right means to you is different than it right means to me or anyone else. But I'm defining what goodness means to you. I think it is such an important, important process and for me I can, I can describe my process. I think you know, I've always told myself and told others that I'm an ambitious person. I want to make an impact, but you know, I have to do good before doing great, and what that means to me is treating others with respect, treating others with dignity and looking to do something that brightens up other people's days and does some think, good for people first and foremost, and that comes down to...

...things as simple ast social interactions. It doesn't have to be that I, you know, make a huge difference by to any good, a lot of money or, you know, creating a life stuming drug on every single day. Obviously that's not possible, but what is possible is, you know, treating people, going out of their way, your way to treat people, to respect, remember the little details about them and and I think these kinds of things have a really strong pay it forward kind of positive amplification effect, because when you make someone else's Day a little bit better and you help them believe that they can achieve more tomorrow than they could have today, then that kind of effects, especially if they go on to do it for someone else, has such a positive feedback effect that you can't measure with, you know, with with any kind of metric it. It's something that it just makes society innumerably better. So I'm all about it. Okay, so is that a millennial thing or is that an eric thing? I do think it's a millennial thing. I do think millennials are more and more about keeping a mind on these things in a way that maybe previously generations, previous enter nations, weren't. But maybe it's also just a me thing. But I like to think it's a generational thing. I think. I'm very positive about our generations ability to the truth with each other with respect and think about the positive implications that we can have on the world around us. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I'm certainly not claiming that all millennials are like you or all millennials will, you know, have that same kind of mindset, but I do think it is characteristic of that generation. One of the beauties of interviewing guests on the show for so long I think maybe about three years now is that you get to chance to kind of step back and see patterns. And I've had a handful of the younger start up entrepreneurs on the show and those folks are usually building very purpose driven organizations. It's just at the core. So I think very fundamentally about what you have, what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, purpose driven. I love that word. I think for anyone who's looking to be an entrepreneur out there, define your purpose first. I define your North Star, and there everything else will follow because you'll start to see the steps of what it takes to achieve a particular purpose. And so for me I can tell you that my purpose every day is to mark of the the cutting edge of science, to bring that science to people in a positive way that impacts our lives and there, through their health or through their families health, or through their environmental health, their mindments health, whatever it may be, doing something to bring science to a positive impact. So are positive results. So yeah, you know, one of the other things that I've kind of noticed over time about millennials is the the ability to or the interest in being candid and transparent on the show about about what life is really like what you know, wherever you are in your career, just being really candid and transparent about what that's like, as as been really much more in tuned with the millennial guests that I've had on the show. Yeah, I think. I think that's such a that's definitely a...

...trend. I think. I think people in our generation are so much more about sharing things online through social media, so much more open about sharing their own personal struggles with each other in person, and this is something that defines your generation because, you know, putting on a front of how things actually are might have been great when things are generally going better, but things have been progressively getting worse, subjectively in our environment, in our personal health. You know, death rates are going up, life expectans he's going down. We can see global warming is is a rising problem. Industry is kind of ravaging a lot of what as makes this makes our planet great, and I think these are things that, objectively, are not so positive think about, but it's something that we can do to counteract this overt negativity. That's that that we've kind of launched into, our thrust into as a generation is to say posit and say open with each other and think about how he can create purpose driven organizations to counteract these these things. Yeah, and I think it just it normalizes the challenges and so you just don't feel like it's something's wrong with you or something's wrong with me because I'm experiencing these obstacles, that we're all in this together. Oh yeah, it's all just part of the process. So I think that it's been very inspiring. That's the feedback that I get from the community, is that it's just very inspiring to hear that authenticity and that transparency. Absolutely, yeah, and on that topic, you know, I'm happy to share that I didn't grow up as a purpose drifferent organ individual. I'm not someone who grew up feeling like I knew exactly what I want to do with my life and that I had everything figured out. In fact, most of my life I didn't have much figured out at all. I just kind of followed what my parents had told me at what society had told me I should be doing, and as a result, I actually fell into a lot of pretty pretty long and pretty serious about to depression, and I think that's something that I'm very happy to talk about with people because a lot of people struggle with this and I was able to manage my own struggles to depression by finding more purpose in my work and finding more purpose and support from the community around me and VI sub versed by supporting people around me and finding other helping others find their purpose in their work. And so such an important part of individual kind of accomplishment, but also just communal kind of coming together to bring to do something important and meaningful. Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think sometimes, you know, we think that entrepreneurship is, you know, just all rainbows and butterflies. You hear these stories like tell a doc or Lavongo or you know so many more that are just kind of cashing out and IPO and going public and you know, it's sexy and it sells and but it can also be quite depressing. You know. We also have, you know, theories called the Valley of death and the Trougho sorrow and, yeah, some of the realities of those ups and downs and and so I do think being really candid about that can just encourage and inspire the whole healthcare innovation community and ultimately I think that that type of inspiration just helps us...

...keep moving in the directions that we were you know, intending to and to have greater commercial success and get those innovations in the hands of the people that need them. That's right. Yeah, I think such an important thing to remember is that we can lose track of this as individuals, but the work that we do isn't for ourselves, it's for the world around us, and until we can create an impact on the world around us, you can never become successful in anything that you do right, so anything that you do. If you can create an impact in the lives of people who consume your content or, you know, take your drug or do something that positively impacts them in a way that they'll come that you know that they'll pay money for it, then then you start to become successful. Success is secondary to make an impact. Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy? I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities. Learn more at legacy DNACOM backslash kit. Isn't that like, Duh, we're in healthcare, but it really is something to still be said, because it needs to be said. That's right, that's right. Yeah, if you're an entrepreship to make money, I think, I think you know, you could be successful, but I think going in for make a to make a purposeful impact, is is a lot more of a high. It's a better way to go about it, I think. Yeah, yeah, so let's let's switch gears a little bit and talk about funding. So this is always a very interesting topic. You've got a lot of conversations about the trends and funding in the billions and trillions of dollars that's being poured into healthcare innovation right now and and then you've got, you know, the stories of those innovators that are in the trenches. You know early stage, idea stage, you know even you know after several seed rounds that are still struggling to raise money. So from your perspective, you know what are some of the things that are happening in the market place and what do folks need to do to get funding? Yeah, that's that's an amazing question. So we can talk first about what's happening in the market place right now. So I think it's never been a better time to be in biotech. I think we have some of the most positive outlooks of by on the industry biotech that...

...we've had in probably decades, as far as I can tell, and the amount of money going into by a check at every stage, from the seed stage to series a all the way to IPO and kind of farm of acquisition. It's never been more positive in terms of the amount of money going in. So things are really exciting and biocheck right now. But the Frank Truth is we have more money going to biocheck then we have new startups, and so the amount of new starters being being created right now I don't think is is actually changing much from, you know, five years ago, ten years ago. It's just a more higher injection of capital. And so to all those would be entrepreneurs out there who are thinking should I know? I should I or should I not? Try Starting a company? And you've always had you's one of the tip of your tongue or you've had an idea, now is a better time than any because they're more money than there are great startups, and so now is a great time to go into it. And so I guess, going on to the second topic, you know how you would raise money? I think there's there's plenty of people who know way more about this than I do, but what I can say is that the startups that really do a phenomenal job raising money know what their unique value proposition is, know how to sell it and know that every single investor meeting is a chance to build a partnership. It's not where you're trying to raise money and then go on to your next round of raising money. It's trying to build a company light a lifelong partner with the person that you're talking to. My lifelong partnership, and so think about building relationships over raising money and when you start to build relationships, the money comes afterwards. HMM, wow, why are we missing that? I think we're missing that because the way that you know, we talked about pitching and raising money feels like you're talking to an institution. But institutions are just collections or organizations of people, and so you're going to be talking probably to an associate first and your first pass of trying to raise money. But if you are to know the partners that are particular firm, then you can talk to the partners, but ultimately there's going to be one or two people at most who gathered together and they're making a decision about whether or not they're going to give you money. And so quit thinking about raising money as talking to an institution or talking to a pool of money and start thinking about building relations with people who want to help you because their partners with you. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's such valuable advice. I can't tell you how many partners that I speak to that says, you know, they're hearing, you know, five hundred and ten, fifteen pitches a day and you know half of them they still have no idea what those folks do. Yeah, yeah, so really getting clear on that unique value proposition, I think is, you know, such a such a challenge. Why do you think that's a challenge? I think it's a root that USP. Yeah, that unique value proposition. I think it's a real challenge because first you may not have kind of a technology that really is true unique. So that's that's that's what actually creating any technology is really hard, right, if, whether you're a scientist in a lab or your a business person who's partnering...

...with scientists like that's that's really really challenging, right, or if you're in health tech, you know, coming up with a unique spin towards healthcare deliveries, are interre their pair and the PMP system. Right, it's all really really difficult stuff. So first the foremast is just challenging to begin with, and no one, I don't want to underspeak kind of how difficult this is create a unique product the first place. Yeah, and the second aspect that's really hard is once you do have unique product, let's say you do have that, you're at that point then messaging it. Are Delivering that message in a way where someone understands that there is a lot of complexity and nuance to your product or to your idea that you can go a long way and delivering a lot of value to a lot of people without over complicating yet or getting to the point where they're overwhelmed by the amount of information you're giving them. Hitting that sweet spot between the two is such a difficult thing, and so when you look at the truly incredible founders of a generation, I think they've all been able to do something very, very specifically, which is being able to deliver, e. exactly the message they have in mind without either underwhelming or overwhelming their audience. And so that to all, you know, all those aspiring founders. When you can hit that point, then you've really kind of a sense, you know, hit the DOC pot. Yeah, and I've seen you know, I think a lot of times the conversation that I have with folks is like the chicken or the egg thing, right, like I am a maybe a scientist, maybe an engineer. I have the idea for this innovative tech or this innovative solution, but I am not an expert at developing value propositions or storytelling or balancing, you know, what's going to bring clarity versus too much detail. And now I've just like completely board my audience or confuse them at worst. And in so, you know, definitely needing resources, needing funding to be able to develop those core assets of the pitch, but also needing to be able to pitch, to be able to get the funding to be able to, you know, fund the Batter Pitch and and I just see that that's something that a lot of folks still really struggle with. Yeah, yeah, it's you can under the question. Is a great way to put it. And I think you know, the Frank Truth of entrepreneurship to is that there are a lot of systemic biases that are in the world of Entrepreneurship and fund raising right and so you know, it's a lot easier to raise money if you happen to come from one of those institutions, for example as a scientist, where money typically flows towards right. You know, you using a lot more fun and go towards Harvard and Stanford and m t than you are, you know, at a lot of other greatstitutions that are doing amazing work. And so this is an example of just systemic bias that is extremely hard to overcome and it's just a reality of this is that we live in but what I will say is more than ever, those assistant those into those institutional barriers that separate us or, you know, hierarchicized, I sort of like you know, layer us as individuals, are starting to break down more and more. You know nowadays. You know, previously, if you weren't in Boston or the bay area, it was extremely hard to get in a meeting with the top investor, but nowadays anyone can...

...go on as a meeting with anyone, right, and so these barriers are breaking down. So start thinking about, I love to think about how we can continue to accelerate that process of breaking down barriers and how people with great ideas get the money they deserve to make an impact. Sure I you know, I think you make a really good point. I think one of the silver linings of Covid, and you know there are certainly many of them, is one of them is the breaking down of those barriers and for us to kind of rethink how we connect with folks and in this digital or virtual world and in that certainly helps us get greater access to folks that we might not have come across in those more traditional facetoface encounters. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, men an optimal worlds where things are more capital flows to the best ideas in the best people to utilize that capital. I think that's the world that we're moving towards and I'm very I'm very hopeful about that, I'm optimistic about that and of course you can make some negative arguments against that, but you know, to me I'm all about optimism, and so let's let's. I see that trend and I want to continue to amplify it. Absolutely. So let's talk about problem solution awareness and that challenge with early stage companies. So give our give our listeners a little bit of more context about this challenge and then let's talk about it. Yeah, Problem Solution Awareness. It's a little bit different than what you might normally here, which is plop problem, sorry, product market fit. So mostly entrepreneurs and vcs will talk about product market fit, but another component of product market fit, which is that idea that you have a particular product that you're selling or service that you're selling the market need is willing to pay values on, pay money for right. A component of that is problem solution awareness. And so and if you're if your market are, your audience isn't aware of the problem they have or aware that a solution exists for a problem they know they have, then you essentially don't have what's called problems solution awareness. And so building problem solution awareness for those markets where either your audience isn't aware that there's a problem that they have or isn't aware that for a problem they do have there's a solution that exists and they can purchase, is really important, and so that's in a critical component of kind of eventually building product market fit. It's definitely the key step right before product market fit. And so what's happening with that? Like how is that you know from your perspective, how is that being skipped over or overlooked? I think one of the biggest things that's happening is that, you know, for these really large institutional players like big farm of companies, they spend an Amendu amount of money on creating problem solution awareness. Right there's an immense budget that goes into advertising for their drugs, but for these smaller startup companies that can be really challenging, and so you have to really understand how to create problem solution awareness and and ultimately product market fit while engaging customers on a very low capital budget, and so you have to come up with creative guerrilla... strategies, you have to come up with word of mouth strategies, things that can really stretch your dollar very far while still creating that awareness and eventually that market base that you need to create a successful company. You know. So I'm sure our community gets tired of hearing me talk about this term co creation, but in my mind co creation is the strategy to solve this problem, solution awareness issue, on zero marketing budget, or ten of the marketing budget and zero advertising budget. It's involving customers in that co creation process really, really early on, and that allows you to be able to get your validation and clinical clinical efficacy. It allows you to be able to get your early buyers and those folks ultimately become part of your external marketing team when you when you're getting to the CO launch process, and I think that those folks having voice and playing a role in that word of mouth marketing early on is is really really critical to that commercial success, especially when you're talking about companies like like you had given you know, that are really bootstrapping or really strapped for funds on a big advertising and marketing budget. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When your customers become your advocates and your cheerleaders and they become your partners and Co creating your company or your brand or your product, I think you have an immense value out there. You know, I can't I think of Collins examples for that kind of network effect has amplified the value of product far, far past, you know, what could have happened with, you know, a regular traditional advertising kind of approach. And and one example that comes to top of mind is Tesla. Right, test the spends absolutely serio dollars on over marketing budget or advertising budget. Right. Everything is through word of mouth and through kind of the branding of the cars themself, providing that you on provides throughs, you know, twitter feed and other social media routes. But that's such a great example of, you know, people who are Tesla owners aren't just car owners, they are their cheerleaders for Testla. They your advocates. They're like fanatical about Tesla and it's and that's an a great example of, you know, go getting your customers as co creators to create extremely valuable brands and companies. Yeah, and I think that that solves for a couple of problems that you had mentioned. Is is one like the the number one reason why we don't get product market fit or we don't have commercial success is because there's no need for the solution anyway. Yeah, sure, right. And and and so being able to involve customers that will tell you that your baby is ugly or tell you that your idea is is not relevant or meaningful, really, really early on, I think, is so critical. And then being able to shape what that might look like is also really powerful. So, Eric, this is just been a very great conversation. Is there anything else that you would want to share with our community based upon your experience and observations? Yeah, the last thing I would say is that believe... yourself and the unique value that you bring to the world's and every single relationship you have, because I believe that everyone has something in creible they can do with their lives, and the sooner that you start shedding the mental shackles that we all placed in ourselves and for whatever reason, or have been placed on us, the sooner you are shutting those mental shackles, the more you can start accomplishing the incredible things that you didn't know you could do, and so that's a position I've been very grateful to have in my life and I hope that everyone can listening can also we get to shed their own mental shackles and do some incredible things. Wow, that's great. What a great way to end today's conversation. Imagine what the world would be like if we could all shed those mental shackles exactly. Yeah, I can't even imagine it. So, yeah, right, right, oh my goodness, freedom. So how would folks get ahold of you if they want to follow up with you after the show? Yeah, feel free to reach out to me through my my work email, which is eric at petree dot bio. So that's Eri, see at Petri Dot bioh thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you actually, Dr Roxy. It's great. It's great to be here. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who shared the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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