Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 107 · 2 weeks ago

D2C: How to solve gaps in your path to commercial success w/ Elizabeth Ruzzo


The first rule of successful commercialization is mapping out your path. The second rule is understanding when you have to adjust direction.

Where to start; where to go; whether your product caters to consumers, providers, payers, or all three can change over the course of your commercialization journey.

Dr. Elizabeth Ruzzo knows this first hand and she’s bringing us the scoop on how her startup was able to not only meet a need, but make that solution enticing to both customers and payers alike.

Dishing on everything from out-of-this-world-crazy statistics to successfully weighing the pros and cons that line your commercialization path, Dr. Ruzzo delivers on key insights and strategies we know you’re looking for.

If you’re trying to figure out which commercialization journey is right for you, you’re not going to want to miss this episode!

Here are the show highlights:

  • The crazy research statistic you haven’t heard about (1:56)
  • Understanding where to start your commercialization journey (8:25)
  • How to empower consumers with consumer-first healthcare (12:39)
  • Weighing the pros and cons on your commercialization path (15:18)
  • Data’s influence on audience message mapping (23:10)
  • Influencer marketing - will it work for you? (25:01)

Guest Bio

Dr. Elizabeth Ruzzo is Founder and CEO of adyn, a company focused on bridging the medical research gap and making scientific discovery more inclusive.

After more than a decade immersed in the study of human genomics and medical genetics, Dr. Ruzzo began noticing large knowledge gaps in medical research and information. It was then that she decided to build a new standard of care and work to close gaps caused by historic inequity in medical research.

The recipient of many awards including the Charles J. Epstein Trainee Awardee for Excellence in Human Genetics Research, and the Jo Rae Wright Fellowship for Outstanding Women in Science, Dr. Ruzzo completed her graduate work at Duke University and postdoctoral research at UCLA.

If you’d like to contact Dr. Ruzzo directly, you can email her at, or find her on LinkedIn at Elizabeth Ruzzo, PhD. If you’d like more information about adyn, visit their website at

I you're listening to health, innovators,a podcast and video show about the leaders influencers and early adopterswho are shaping the future of health care on your host Doctor Roxey movie health. Innovators. Welcome back totoday's episode, I'm sitting down with Elizabeth Rusa, who is the founder andCEO of Aden, welcome to the show Elizabeth Hi thanks for having me, I'mexcited to talk to you. It is great to have you here today. So, let's startoff by sharing a little bit about your background and what you're innovatingthese days. Sure. So my background is in getic Ihave a PhD in human genetics and Genomic, and I spent many years lookingfor genetic causes of diseases. I spent a lot of time looking at both epilepsyand autism and a lot of what I realized in the course of that decade, plus ofresearch was that there were a couple of health inequities that I keptexperiencing. So the first was that any time I wentto do a genetic study in a non European population, I had less statisticalpower to make the I same kind of discoveries, as I could in a Europeanpopulation to explain that a little bit sure so. Basically, genetics in the early days did a lot ofsequencing of European individuals, which meant that all of your healthycontrols that you would compare a disease population to would also be European. So if youwanted to do that in an on European population and look for in our case,we're looking for a lot of rare variants, if you didn't see it in thecontrols, you didn't know if it was truly rare or if it only looked rare,because we hadn't looked in enough well matched samples, okay, that make sense,yeah, yeah and the the second health, an equity that we kept. Seeing was this medical research gender gap. Sothis became especially parent when I was doing work in autism, which hasfour times as many males as females that get diagnosed with autism, and sowe were working on understanding the biological basis of that, and it becameclear that there were just far less research studies done to understand. Women's biology and women wereintentionally excluded from clinical trials for many years and not actuallyrequired to be included in them until one thousand nine hundred and ninetythree okay wait yeah, it's crazy! So we even why aren't more people like eventalking about this? I mean I've never heard this before it's a prettyoutrageous statistic and I think that people are also other people, andcompanies and institutions are working...

...on it, but it's shocking, and so weeven had this problem not just in humans, but even down to animal studies like animal studies were focused ononly you know: Male mice, for example, because it was thought that there was alot more variability in females, including because of their hormonefluctuations, which is part of what I now interested in, studying, right andturns out. Hormone fluctuations happen in and out of a controlled study, soyou want to actually understand that variability and and use it to youradvantage to understand. What's actually going to happen when you bringsomething to market, especially in the case of drug development. So when yousaid intentional, it wasn't necessarily intentional to be biased or sexist inthe medical research. It was just more of like ruling out, so maybe theadditional complexities or variables within the study so kind of simplifyingthe data or the study. Exactly like it makes your life easier to have a reallyhomogeneous sample that this happens. A lot with clinical trials to they'llhave a very long list of requirements for what it takes to be eligible forthat clinical trial, and it turns out later when you go and look at thosedata that, in fact you can maybe have helped a whole lot of a broader subsetof people more heterogeneous population, but it just was easier to start withthat homogeneous set yeah, which which I do see that veryoften why that real world evidence, post marketing surveillance, is socritical because it's more of a regular population instead ofwhatever was for that example in that particular clinical trial, okay, Axai. So one thousand nine hundred and ninetythree. So what happened then? So, then they created requirements in the USthat required that women were included. I in every clinical study, and so wehave slowly been getting better and better at this. But what a din! So now you ask what myinnovation was. I founded a company called Aden and our mission is to makescientific discovery more inclusive, and so in order to do that, we're starting with working on thingsthat were previously ignored, primarily working on helping individuals in needof birth control, find the right birth control for their biology. So we'vecreated the first test. That's designed to prevent birth control, side effects, and why is that important issue? So there are well, maybe I'll. Have youguess? Do you want to guess how many birth control options are available inthe US? Well, my husband had a vasectomy, sothat was my route lucky, so I have not stayed tuned into theboth world of birth control,...

...but I imagine there are quite a fewyeah, so there are nearly two hundred options available in the US. Neverguess that, and you know, women use birth control for thirty years onaverage in the US, and the other important thing to remember is thatbirth control is not just used for preventing pregnancy. It's also used asmedicine to treat a number of reproductive disorders or at leastmanage their symptoms for things like endometritis and P cos. So the problemright now is that doctors have no way to predict ahead of time, which patientis going to experience which side effect, which is why the majority ofwomen have to try for or more methods to find one that works for them. HMM,okay. So so, then, let's swear. Are you inthe innovation process now? So we are currently running our pilotstudy and we are basically starting with twoof the most dangerous side effect, so risk for depression and risk for bloodclots, and so the way I can describe a little bit about how we've doped theproduct. So it's at home test kit, that's ordered by our doctors that then get sent to yourhome. You take a saliva sample for us to analyze DNA and a small finger spotof blood for us to analyze hormones, and then we generate a report thatincludes your read out some from both yourgenetic risk and your your hormone levels, and then we also provide a way for you to understand the pros andcons of all the available birth control options that are out there and weprovide a tell medicine visit with with providers that we've trainedspecifically to not only understand the biological redouts we're giving, butalso help. You understand what your, how that fits in with yourown reproductive goals and priorities right. So the other really interestingthing about birth control is there's preference involved. You know somepeople hate having to remember to take a pill.At the same time every day some people hate the idea of having somethingpermanently implanted, so our providers are really focused onmaking sure that the patient feels empowered with now having all theinformation at their disposal that they have to make the best possible decisionand hopefully avoid that that long, our Jewish process of trial and error. So I think you know there's never a only onecommercialization path for any organization, so kind of just take usback to maybe some of the earlier days, depending on whether that was sixtydays ago or six years ago, when you were determining you knowwhich path you were going to take. Who...

...was going to be your target audienceand what was going to be that business model around your commercializationstrategy yeah. So I went back and forth to be honest aboutif this was best to try to start in a clinical setting or a director consumer. But what I realized was that it was ideal to kind of have the bestof both worlds, so we're having physicians involved in theprocess from the beginning so that they can, which is why we builtan not tell a medicine visit so that we can have the medical communities seethat what we're doing is scientifically robust and accurate and that it willactually make their lives easier. You know the average contraceptivecounseling appointment is thirteen minutes in the US, so they don't havethe amount of time or the amount of information that we are going toprovide for them. Making that decision. Well, though, we're starting direct toconsumer also in part, because you can get the prescriptions by mailorder right now and a lot of people are doing that, there's also a push in theUS in a number of states. I believe it's already thirteen states where youcan get birth control over the counter from your pharmacist and so to imagineyou know, birth Gedol is kind of influx. Where people need it, they might needto be able to get it discreetly. They might not have the resources to be ableto go out of their way to visit a doctor, and so we're really thinkingabout accessibility and also thinking longer charm, about how do we partnerwith those those doctors and clinics to help make their job of prescribing the best we can so so, essentially, the the entire experience is beingtriggered by the consumer instead of by the physician in the normal ortraditional health care model, correct, Yep, okay, and so the consumer istriggering that and then, of course in states wherethey can't whether they can get it over the counter or whether it'sprescription based they're still going. The next step is, you know, you'vebuilt awareness and demand with the consumer, they raise their hand, theysay yes and they tell a health visit or no the test. They order the test. Technically, it's ordered. On the back end. We basically collectenough information that the doctor needs to agree that they are a goodcandidate for getting this test. So that's all kind of behind the scenesordered for them, and then the test results also get approved by thatclinician. Before the customer sees it again, so then after the customer seestheir results, they have the option to schedule that to medicine visit and gothrough the test results and make that contraceptive counseling appointment sowho's paying for it. The tell em...

...medicine visit what the test and thetown at so a lot of times when we're talking about direct, a consumer, we'retalking about cash, pay, yeah, and this seems to be somewhat of a unique model.Possibly so we yeah so right now we're startingas cash pay but, as I mentioned earlier, were really focused on accessibility.So what I think is unique about aid and, as converted to a lot of tests that areout there is that it is providing medically actionable results,and so our hope is that because you're actually making animpact that helps have economic outcome. That's favorable for the insurancecompanies, which is what really matters to get coverage that they would beinterested in covering this test for their customers. So that is definitelywhat we are working towards. I think it's innovative. I think it's aninnovative business model and I think that the timing is well. I guess your data will tell usright in the near future, but I think the timing is really ripe for consumerfirst health care, where you know, as consumers, we're making differentchoices than the health care system would make for us and more choice, moreempowerment and, frankly, willing to put some money out of pocket to be ableto express that choice. I think we're seeing more and more of that happen.Yeah. Absolutely. I think it's I think it's more important than ever thatpeople can make informed and personalized choices about their sexualand reproductive health, and I think that one benefit of this nightmare that we'vebeen in, which is Ovid, is the availability and comfort that peoplehave adopted with Tela Medicine and with at home testing right people aregiving themselves coved tests at home or getting them quite frequently, andso I think people see that that is. Is Freedom Right to be able to understand,what's happening and we're hoping to do the same thing with with birth control,I've ordered blood tests online. I have you yeah and how wasyour experience excellent good, and it was so quick, so convent, and I got thepanel that I wanted instead of the panel that that you know that came withmy insurance yep and then I've done the hormone testing online and I'vedone the allergy testing now we'll sayactually not the allergy testing. It was more of it wasn't what you'reallergic to, but it was what like works with your DNA. Oh cool, different wayto describe it anyway, and I identified all of these things that I shouldn'teat and I was like yeah, I'm not giving that up. So I I mean so the whole test model works, but then Iwas like yeah no right. I mean they yeah. It'sinteresting. How sometimes knowledge of...

...that information still doesn't changebehavior now, if they had told you that you know you had a super high risk ofbreast cancer and there were more frequent screenings, you could do orthings like that you might have been more motivated to do that. Then youknow I give up. COPAEANS is such a staple exactly so, as you were kind of wrestling withthis idea, when you were saying that you went back and forth what were someof those things where you were looking at the pros and cons. You know we kindof touched on some of them, but you know: Is there anything else that wouldbe valuable to our audience on some of the pros and cons that you weighed, asyou were, looking at the different commercialization paths you could take,I think there were two that really pushed me over the edge. So when I thought about what it would looklike to do it and in existing health systems, it required that you were confident doctors had writtendown birth control, side effects which, as someone who was gap slippedby my medical professional and told that I was not having birth in fullside effects. When I was there's no there's a very low likelihood thatthat's captured and it's definitely unlikely to be captured as structureddata, meaning it might be written in notes which have become a naturallanguage processing. You know data mining, nightmare yeah, so that was that wasdefinitely in the cons category and in the pros category. Con for goingin the the Beta be route and and pro for the the direct consumer route isalso that ability to consent them to participate in researchand to be able to recontact them. So what I mean by that is with our missionof making scientific discovery more inclusive, we're hoping to that peoplewill understand the importance of that larger mission that they will recognizethat we are trying to make up for decades of people not studying diseasesthat primarily affect or majority affect women and girls, and so byopting in you can help us by letting us do things like reach back out and say:Hey. Have you ever experienced Uder fibrates? Have you ever experiencedthis other thing and really be able to help make discoveries that we will thenpublish for the larger medical community for everyone to benefit fromYeah Yep? Okay, that makes sense. Hey It's Dr Roxy, here with a quickbreak from the conversation? Are you trying to figure out what moves youneed to make to survive and thrive in the new Co vid economy? I want everyhealth innovator to find their most...

...viable and profitable pivit strategy,which is why I created the Co. Vid proof, Your Business Pivot Kid. Thepivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivotstrategies. It walks you through six categories, you need to examine, orthree hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the sixcritical pivot lenses, as you make your way through this comprehensive kit,you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sureyou can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details andopportunities, learn more at legacy: Hyphen Daco backslid, so you know kind of thinking about this. You know gender gap, one of the topics that often comes upwhen it's not always the case, but one of the topics that often comes up whenI have female guest on the show is what is it like to be an innovator in healthcare as a female entrepreneur and a we're making progress? But, on a you know, highly dominated maledominated environment, especially in the reason why I want to talk aboutthis even more so with you is especially when you're talking about a highly female based company at like you have yeah, I mean I think the Times it is most obvious has been whenI was talking to investors. So if I was talking to male investors, who arestill the majority of investors in in the US, I would basically see that if they understood the problem, they were likely interested t to continue the conversation. But ifthey didn't understand the problem, it was such a barrier because they didn'thave a partner or sister. You know daughter who had experiencedthis, and so they, even though I had stats, even though you know they justdidn't, they didn't believe it or they didn't see the need to fix it or theythought. Oh, but you know their doctor can already do that. That's whatdoctors do so. I think that that has been one ofthe biggest challenges. Okay, and I think that that's I mean there's somepart of that. That's just inherit right, like where you know investors aren'tgoing to be passionate about solving everyone's. You know problem, there'ssoily some kind of mission, AL purpose, but behind those investments that arebeing made- and then I think you kind of circumventing the traditional healthcare system certainly eliminates some of those...

...gender encounters that you might wouldhave to deal with traditionally and bring it an innovation to market beingable to go directly to consumers, yeah yeah, exactly okay. So let's talk about your go tomarket strategy. Where are you now in that process? Andand then what are some of the strategies that you're deploying thatyou've had success with? And what are some of the things that have beenchallenges or barriers for you yeah? So right now we are have launched our pilot, so we're goingthrough the full experience with these individuals from filling out their medical history andgetting the test all the way through to generating the report having it signedoff on by the physician and then scheduling those tell medicine visitsand all the way through to potentially getting a male order subscription. Ifthe patient chooses to do that, and so meanwhile, we have been in aearly access stage. So on our website, we launched away for people to come,tell us a little bit about who they are and sign up, and then we also includeda rewards program in that. So if you, a referral, rewards program. So if youtell one three or five of your friends, youcan potentially you get different rewards at those levels and part ofwhat we're hoping to do with. That is really also make it an easy way tostart a conversation about side effects, which is you know something that issometimes still stigmatized side effects around birth control. So aboutlike a new hair product that I have at a party is that ingle different thantalking about my birth control, yeah right exactly exactly so. We've had some success with thatalready, and we've been just now really starting to think aboutour digital strategy on different channels where our customers are- and Ithink one of the biggest challenges since you asked is just thinking about how do we market a product that appliesto three decades of individuals. So that is a challenge that I'm going toapply your same business model to your marketing strategy, recognizing thatyou don't want to do trial and era health care, but you also don't want todo trial and error marketing in your target audience exactly all different,too yeah yeah exactly and- and you know, I think they are a different lifestages right. So it comes from people who have never been on birthcontrol before, but seven and ten teens use birth control to manage symptoms ofPMS. So it's important to understand where everyone is finding you or it'ssomebody who's. You know in their mid late twenties and has had a bunch ofbad experiences with side effects, a lot of trial and error and is sick ofit or maybe at someone post, partum who's just had a baby and wants to nothave another one right away and think...

...about what that option looks like andreevaluate, or you know all the way through to someone starting to gothrough periments. So how do we talk to them? How do we communicate what we're doing in a waythat resonates with with those somewhat disparate needs? Yeah, so you know itsounds like you guys are taking your targeting strategy to another level,which I think is really important when you're talking about director consumer,you know you've identified a gender you've identified an age range, butrecognizing that, like we said, not everybody in that gender in that agerange is going to be this homogeneous group, they're all going to beexperiencing problems or use cases in a different way. So what are some of thethings and maybe you're still figuring that out? But what are some of thethings that you're putting in place because you're not going to be the onlyone out there? That's trying to figure out this like audience message mappingif you will yeah on a a really broad scale, yeah winna identify those different cases, use cases aswell as being able to match your marketing to that specific audience inthat specific situational triggers. If you will Dava is the goal, but so anything fromthinking about surveys to you know pay at experiments to alsojust recognizing. What's already in the data about demographic people it on differentchannels, you know tick talk versus Facebook, age ranges are very different,yeah things like that, so trying to focus on what we can to understandthose those different groups and also get in more traditional media outletsthat might have like a user group that would resonate. You know I have a asuspicion that you know we want people who believe in science who understand,or maybe they don't care what we're doing, but they trust that we know whatwe're doing. I think that that's going to be likely to get faster adoption,yeah and definitely influence or marketing yeah, because they will knowtheir tribe. They would probably be able to help you identify those thoseuse cases within their tribe and being able to cultivate those messages andmatch that exactly yeah, and I think that's a good point. I think we'retrying to start thinking about how we can leverage influencers notjust to reach those audiences, but also let those influencers do the messaging.They think they found in a way that would resonate. You know kind ofpartnering with them to I'm not saying. Oh here's, this script, here's this! Wewant you to do exactly this, because I don't think that's this! This, that'snot making the best use of their their knowledge about their own audience.Well, and certainly you know you've kind of got the movement energy thecause behind this. You know so it's you...

...won't find it too difficult to find agroup of social media influences or just participants that want to rallythe cause of the disparities and medical research around Winder Yep Yep,and we need more people to be shouting about it from the roof top. So I hopewe're right about that. In order for that to change faster yeah, I mean youcan probably come up with like a dream. One hundred list of influencers thathave some really big big voices and big influence around these specific topics.Yeah, absolutely, I think, you're think you're right on about that. Would thatbe your primary go to would be influencers or do you have any othersecret tricks when you think about that broad of an audience? I definitelythink the influencers. Sometimes it's it's the you know, and I also dependsokay. So, when you're going to direct a consumer, obviously it's going to be alot more expensive than doing me to be right. So there's some kind of grassroots approaches that you can take, and so you know those people with you.Fifteen million followers are going to be priced very differently than someonethat has, you know, let's say a million, and so it's not necessarily always thebest proach, especially for an early stage, come down. Try to get those youknow most prominent influences to heaven. Second Tier or even third tearinfluencers can be the right approach, they t and then it could be there's anumber of different factors. You know brand alignment, you know, is yourbrand bold and you know like what's the attitude andpersonality of your brand and then making sure that you're findinginfluences that share that common attitude? And personally, I thinkthat's really important. So, if you're going to be like this science basedtype of brand, that's going to be very different than if you're out there andyou're, you know rallying around gender issues.You know like do you do that you could do that same thing and two completelydifferent ways. So I think that brand alignment is going to be reallyimportant and I'm a huge advocate if anyone'slisten to this show, you probably are like. I know what she's going to say:She's going to say, Co creation does that on every episode, but cocreation you know, is getting co, creating what the influencers andbringing them into the conversation, putting some tools in place to be ableto cocreate what this launch so a lot of times when we're thinking aboutinvolving customers in the process, we're usually thinking about design tothe thinking or human center design. We design something and we go like hey.Look at this. Tell me what you think: We really as a whole in the industrymissed out on CO, creating the launch- and you know we might higher marketingagencies or teams, internal or external and come up with this. You KnowMarketing, plan of channels and messages and audiences and what not andmost often we do thosee very siloed...

...without including the target customersand- and I go okay. Let's stop that right now and co I mean every companyshould be co, creating yeah with those target customers. It will save you lotsof headaches, lots of money and also you know, help you with your window ofopportunity, because you know when you don't you're kind of guessing along theway guessing wrong. You might run out of money and you might have actually,then you know took you two years to figure out what that formula was goingto be. What was that conversion path going to be? And now you know, there'sfive more competitors in the space. The young are started, Yeah Yeah!Absolutely! No, I think that's, I think, that's a spot on and, of course,influencers. That's they're in their that's in their DNA, an the use thatword co creation or not like that's what they're passionate about doing so.There's there's a bunch of tools and things that you can do to kind of bringthem in and remove the guest work and formulate your entire go to marketstrategy. Yeah thanks. I think that's really R you're welcome. So it is youkind of just think about where you are now. Are there any other lessonslearned or any other tips to be aware of, or things forpeople to watch out pitfalls to watch out far for as there either making thatdecision between B Toban BC or if they choose the bee to be be to see route?Is there anything that you've already learned of like stay away from this ordo this huh? That's a very good question. Idon't know if I have any real stay away from or do this, but Iwill say, I think part of what part of what made itfeel less scary to go. The direct consumer route was like well, I'm aconsumer, so I understand like somewhat inherently what that might look like orhow I might figure out messaging, and I know that it would involve social andthese kinds of things, but there's so many things there's so much more to itthan that. Like I never thought I would be thinking about key terms, and so- and you know so-it's been fun. I, like all that stuff, but I think it's just being aware of yeah how those howthose are going to look super different, and I think, on the on the Beta B side.You know you just have a different different set of problems, but thenmaybe you need a sales team and a sales strategy, and so I think I guess myadvice would be like don't over agonize the route. If, if you think you have ayou need to figure out what pwhat the product needs, what makes more sense tomake it a reality. Yeah Yeah, you know, and your spot on themarketing piece can be so complicated. You know, if you ask someone, what doyou do? Oh well, I'm in marketing. Well, that could mean a different things: aright there's, so many different domains of expertise, there's so manydifferent channels. I mean it's just...

...the world of marketing and let's justsay that it's also dynamic right. So, if you're like oh social, media, okay,well, what twenty? What I? What of the twenty channels? Are you talking aboutup and next month there's a new one up and then the algorithms changed a huge undertaking. You know, and soyou know you just partner with experts and those different areas. Maybe sometimes you have a blend ofgeneralists. That know a little bit about different things, but then atsome point being able to make the investment in those specialists yeaharound specific things. The other thing that I would just say what you'retalking about is, I think, sometimes, when people are going direct, aconsumer, it can be it's really easy to get caught up in, like how would I say this like Shiny Marketing Syndrome, in the senseof like do. I need oh well, take talks really hot right now. I need to be ontick, Tock and, and we had to be on youtube and T E Y go. She got to be anINSTA and you know all these different things and then all of a sudden, youknow you've got you had fifty sandolas a month to work with, but now you'vespread yourself out so fairly that none of it's really effective and you'relike Oh, maybe this director Consumer Hath isn't going to work well. Actuallyit could work so yeah, starting off with a couple of channels, yeah andmaking those very successful and having some restraint with thetemptation. When someone goes, Oh, you definitely need to get on whatever thatis and taking the time to like analyze your own learnings, from whatever youdid, try to understand. What's what might be working and what's not beforeyou go, throw a bunch of money at a new channel thinking, that's going to besome kind of magic. If you never like figured out a message that resonatesdoesn't matter where you're going yeah yeah absolutely I mean it could be thatyou think I mean I see this all the time with clients. You know it thinkingthat the channel doesn't work for MEE and it's probably not the channel. It'smore of the ads or it's more of the message exactly what you're talkingabout so getting that that alignment between the audience, the message andthe channel or the offer is always you know, that's the fun part right. It's aexperimentation, yeah. I think so. I'm like Oh another data problem. I can a well Elizabeth. This has been sowonderful. Thank you so much for joining me. If there's anyone in theaudience that would like to get a hold of you to learn more about Aden or justconnect with you about your founders journey, how would they get in touchwith you yeah? You can email us at hello at Aden, a d y Nomand myself or someone else will get back to you. Someone else is better atpoking my calendar than reaching out to man box directly. Thank you so much for joining me today.Thank you! So much roxy.

Thank you so much for listening. I knowyou're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market, and Ivalue your time and attention to get the latest episodes on your mobiledevice automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast AP, likeApple Podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening, and Iappreciate every one who shared the show with friends and colleagues, seeyou on the next episode of Health, Innovators.

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