Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 87 · 4 months ago

It’s not about you, it never was w/ David Fishbach


Building a company that someone wants to buy, instead of the one you want to sell, can be tricky - but it’s almost always necessary if you want your startup to succeed.

Knowing who your customer is, what problems they need to be solved, and whether the problem is big enough to build a successful business model is the price of admission to “product-market fit.”

David Fishbach, Founder and Principal at Excel Executive Business Advisors knows a thing or two about how a startup can increase its chances for success.

Using his extensive experience in the technology, life science, and healthcare fields, he walks our listeners and viewers through the ways a customer’s experience drives success.

Entrepreneurs and startups who are looking for a strong market entry - and exit strategy - for their innovation should take note: it’s not about you, it never was. It’s all about your customer.

Here are the show highlights:

  • Why you need to build a company someone wants to buy, not one you want to sell (3:04)
  • The most compelling founders solve problems they, themselves, have experienced (5:59)
  • Is the problem you’re solving pervasive enough to create a viable business model? (8:22)
  • Understanding the importance of the user’s journey (12:34)
  • Two sustainable competitive advantages to aid in achieving product-market fit (14:09)
  • This is why even the greatest athletes, musicians, and performers have trainers (23:33)

Guest Bio

David Fishbach is the Founder and Principal of Excel Executive Business Advisors, an organization offering corporate strategy, operations, and leadership development in the technology, life sciences, and healthcare space.

His decades of experience in operational, executive, and consultative roles helped him lead teams in the delivery of software, services, and support for clinical trials, and throughout the life cycle of pharmaceutical development and commercialization

David holds a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical & Aerospace Engineering, and a Certificate in Business Strategy from Cornell University.

If you’d like to reach out to David, you can find him on LinkedIn at David Fishbach, or email him at

I you're listening to health, innovators,a podcast and video show about the leaders influencers and early a doctorswho are shaping the future of health care in your host. Dor Roxy Movie.Welcome back to the show health innovators on today's episode. I amsitting down with David Fishback, who is the founder and principle of Excelexecutive business advisers. Welcome to the show David thanks for Roxy. It'sgreat to see you again, and I appreciate you Havin Yeah. AbsolutelyI'm excited to have this conversation today, but before we get started withour questions, tell our audience a little bit about your background andwhat you do. Oh sure, thanks for asking yeah. So you know I started my careerin Mechanical Aropa e engineering and I had pretty traditional engineeringroles for the first eight years or so, but right around the year, two thousand,all my buddies were joining software startups and I happened to encounter asoftware statical face forward and we were doing what would now be calledcloud base systems for clinical research, the testing of drugs andmedical devices and the safety and parmacittee that goes along with those.So that set me on to a different path. You know I was there early, it was nota founder, but I was there early and we grew very quickly made multipleacquisitions and operational, litigations, both poorly and well hadour IPO soul do ORCA. That was a good day and I was running customer successful or PalHealth Sciences. That's oracles division with forty plus software andservice solutions for the health care and life sciences. Industry left thereto go to another life. Scientist software start up, but also not as afounder, but to participate in some pretty explosive growth have my secondIP. Now, for about six years, I've had my own strategy operations andleadership, development consultant so working primarily with technology, lifesciences and health care companies, and really working on corporate strategiesfor Inger Planning, operational scale up operational tuning and then a lot ofleadership, development and coaching- and you know, there's two kinds ofconsultants in our industry in item in general and in health care life.Science. Is it consultants that call themselves consultants and are pickingup the odd project in order to tread water and not look unemployed whilethey look for their next full time, posting and consultants that are fullycommitted to doing this as the way they make a living. So I freely confessed toanyone ace that I started out as the first kind. I thought. No, I would I'dbe looking for another executive role with another life. Science of softwarestart up, but the work came in and it turns out that I really enjoy focusing on the most urgent, strategicand tactical priorities with my customers, helping them to... identify and plan and execute, andyou know that's why it's been working out so so. Thank you for that, and I thinkthat there's a lot of us that have started off and one box and moved tothe other. I know so I sure have at different seasons in my career. So so I want to go back to one of thoseearlier jobs that you talked about where you went from being an earlystage employee to kind of going through that due diligence in the IPO and kindof selling to Oracle is kind of look back in hindsight. What are some of thelessons that you learned that are around you know: Innovation, strategy,business strategy, leadership or commercialization yeah greatquestion: Thanks Roxy, you know, first of all, just to say I was not. You knowsleeves rolled up hands on with a lot of the details of those transactions.You know we were. We were responsible for the relentless tactical executionof our commitments to customers. That really is kind of the price ofadmission to every other conversation that you want to have, or even to anIPO. I mean I'm going to sound old and maybe a little judge when I say thisback in the day you had to have happy paying customers in order to go, havean if you no kidding. I swear it. So you know wewere you know we were always selling. Wewere always trying to improve and grow, and because you know it was arelatively young category, we also were educating the marketplace and ourcustomers in real time, but really that idea of selling anddelivering and executing the idea of what now is called customer success.Although that wasn't really a bosor in these early days to me, it really issort of the price of admission to everything else that you're planning orhoping to do, but to specifically to your question,you know: How do you get acquired? You get acquired really by building a company thatsomebody wants to buy, not by building a company that you want to sell right,there's a big difference, so the way that you grow into a an enormous globalpowerhouse in your own right and publicly traded and the way that yougrow to a point that you have a book of business and a set of products andhappy customers and expertise and market positioning. That is a goodpuzzle. Piece to you, know someone who may want to acquire you, the daily tactical execution of that doesn't lookvery different from each other right. I do encounter people whose exit plan isto build and sell, and that's fine right, I mean, but you can't really skip over the buildingpart. You know I mean a occasionally. You can trick some people into... know overvaluing a platform playthat you know is eating and operating loss because it's a market land graband sometimes that works. But you know it's not the play that I would pick forthe play book. Well, you know. I think that that's really interesting, becausea lot of the you know start up founders that I work with. They don't alwayshave the exit strategy in mine and they're not necessary. They are moreoften building the company that they want to build as opposed or that theywant to sell, as opposed to looking at it as building a company that somebodyelse wants to buy, and I think that there are some decisions that are thesame, but there are also some decisions that are pretty different and and soreally being able to sort through that up front. I was talking to someone youknow last year, you know way before the Ovid pandemic, and you know they were.They were in the early early stages of their company and I was asking themabout their exit strategy and they were like Whoa like we're in like free,launched mode, and I'm like yes like. We need to be able to think aboutthat long, distance vision that you have so that we were making some ofthose decisions early on that sent you for that right path. Yet you know, I obviously I don't knowall the details of that particular relationship with that particularcustomer. In general, I prefer a founder in a founding team in a companythat isn't overly focused on the exit strategy. You know to me the mostcompelling founders are ones who are trying to solve a problem that theyexperienced and they think they have a way to ameliorate that experience for otherpeople in the position that they used to have or with the responsibilitiesthat they used to have where they go out and they're trying to you know,resolve an issue. You know so the first start of that I was a part of wasfounded by a guy named Dr Paul Blicher, brilliant physician, brilliant coniton great guy to right, but he was aimingdirectly at the things about clinical research that drove him crazy and thathe perceived took an inordinate amount of time from his staff without addingvalue and that's what he was laser focused not- and I think that was partof why we were successful was because he was right that he was not the onlyposition who felt this way or who needed these tools, and theseimprovements yeah. You know and well yeah, and I think that that's that'sdefinitely a great motivator and a great starting point. One of thepitfalls I see around that approach, though, is that is that P problempervasive enough to create a viable business model around it and a lot oftimes when I'm working with innovators. They really do fall in love with thesolution that they have in mind to...

...bring to market because they've. Sothey have such personal experience with the problem and are so passionate abouthow to solve that. In their own ecosystem that sometimes tend to likecretors over critical strategic decision making around you knowcustomer discovery or you know, validating and testing business ideasearly on they're like no, no, no, no, it's real. I know it and I can skip allof that and then end up bringing something to market where there reallyis. No general market need to have a viable,feasible business around it, but it also at the same time, is a greatstarting point to kind of ignite that passion of wanting to transform theindustry right. You're completely right about that right. You know the thecritical step of figuring out. Am I really you know just one of many whohave this problem and would pay for it to be solved? I and figuring out is thething that I built really a thing that solves this problem that relieves thispain and figuring out. You know whether the thing that I'm building, that I'mreally you know very much in love with, is already out there in the marketplace. You know, I I encountered a potential new client.They were very excited about what they were doing. They were very excitedabout what they built and they had a good mb. You Know Me Bible, product M,but there were other products already market. That already were doing almostexactly the same thing and they were deflated when I you knowpointed them to these. You know they obviously hadn't even looked right. Ilike anyone else, was already doing yeah, so many people are like no oneelse is doing this and you pay was I I just did a simple Google church and yes,they are was it was the painful moment but hanful you know it saved them. Somewasted effort right and the thing about that that you're saying right now isthe problem. Big enough is the pain real enough? Do People really need this?Will people really pay for it? You know that comes to a really important pointthat I make with all of my clients, and not all my clients are starts right. Iwork with some. You know, customers of appreciable size and when they starttelling me, Oh you know we are a machine learning AI driven. You know,go stop right, you know we don't sell prodent, we sell pay relief yet yeh. Sowhat's the pain and they go oh well, we use machine, he'll, stop and that's a league issue. I think thatis one of it's I mean getting the the communication in the value message orthe offer correct is so it's so simple, but it is extremely difficult and Ithink that in a lot of ways you can have a lot of other things right, butif you don't get that right, you're going to be set on a path of failureinstead of success. I agree with you. I...

I usually refer to grandma's pot right.This is how I talk about. Okay, I go. I go. Okay, you know you own. The kitchen, you've designedand built a lot of the equipment you bought state in the art equipment.Right. You're really excited to tell me about all of the futures you know ofGrandma's o. You know you can do this, and this and this I go. There will bepeople who care about that. You know large enterprise customers. You willwant to know. What's going on in the kitchen, anybody who's looking topartner with you or wire will want to know what's going on in the kitchen,but most people want to taste the pie. Don't talk about. Grandma's obin talkedabout grandma's pine yeah, and this is really all about how your customers andyour users, and especially in the SASS world, especially in healthcare it not only, but especially your customers, the people that are makingthe mind decision and your users, the people that are going to have to usethis software or this equipment, or these tools are often not the samepeople. And so you have to pay attention to the customer journey thebuying journey, but also the users carty. You know you want to talk about howthey're going to experience your solution and how are they going toexperience it so and when you can do that, you know it's funny, because yousaid something along the lines of it. It's hard and it's easy. I used to workfor a guy who said that he always kept two presentations ready to go on hislaptop, and one presentation was about how hard this is, and the otherpresentation was about how easy this is when you get the market messed right,and it's so right that it seems so obvious and that it seems so simple that the amount of work that went intoclearing away all of the buzz words and all the Schwatzen all the distractions,to really really tune that message and find it and nail it and have everyperson in the company and every investor and every target customer go.Oh Yeah. I totally get yeah it's hard to make it look that easy. But when youget it right, you know they a yeah. So you've talked you know quite a bit insome of our earlier conversations around differentiation and competitiveadvantage and and so kind of just share with our audience. What are some of thethe mishaps around trying to differentiate your solution from otherother ones on the market? And then what do we need to do going forward to makesure that we're really are owning the space that we canfrom a positioning in competitive, antage standpoint, yea great greatquestion right in most of these markets,...

...a technological, competitive advantageor a feature and function competitive advantage is very, very difficult to establish andimpossible to sustain yeah intellectual property notwithstanding right, thefeature and function and technology normalize and re normalize very quicklyand the customers do it to you without meaning to they go. Oh, you know what Ilove your solution, but your competitor has these purple flags and my boss Lovethe purple flags because Berteris his favorite color and you guys totallyShita purples legs right six months later, every one of your competitors asPurple Flax, yeah you'd, always rather be setting the feature in function race.Then you know trying to catch up in it right, but that is not going to be asustainable competitive. So what's a stain competitive advantage,there's really only two. In my opinion, one is authentic customer success andthe other is trusted partner, lemanis. So for authentic customer success. Youknow. Customer success gets a lot of buzz words, a lot of conferences, a lotof offering. I define it as post delivery, operational success with theuse of deliver technology, asser right, and so you know you can think of apiece of exercise. You buy a treadmill for your house and you do all yourresearch and you pick the absolute best possible treadmills for you and sixmonths later you know it's still being used to dry damp tuns and no one hasused the tread right. So there's nothing wrong with the treadmill, but that was not the successful userexperience right, because the delivered technology asset was not used in theway in which it was intended to be used and we're not going to blame the userfor that by the way I had to blame you know, so it didn't deliver its o. So you know if you are unable to make an Roy works return oninvestment workship right. You know what I'm going to reward this for thepositive. Any technology or service provider whowants any target customer to part with money in exchange for a service orsolution needs to be able to have a very clear,very simple return on investment workshop that they can put in front of theclient yeah. They can say you know you have you know a hundred commissionsand in four locations and in general we find that in the organization of yoursize you spend about x hours on this manual repeatin task that sound aboutright and they go. Oh, I never thought of, for they go. Oh actually it's more,but then Oh, no, it's less right, but you have to take them through...

...the ways in which you are going to makethings better for it and we don't sell product it on Sol Service. We sell pain,movies, Yeah Yeah. Do that you don't have your market message, you don'thave your market ticket. I you can't explain, you can say it's the coolesttack. It learns. You know by watching you and then it starts taking over F.Okay, that's cool! That's what she learning! I love it, I'm a totaltechnically right but yeah how the user experiences that right. What happensfor that? You know we don't sell product. I sell pain relief, so Roi andcustomer success, which I consider to go together right, good experience andit was worth the purchase is one of, in my opinion, the only two sustainablecompetitive advantages and the other one is relationships right. There arecertain portions in this market, especially in health care, where therisks are too high, not to work with the trusted parapets,and so, if your customers trust that you will make certain they aresuccessful and if they trust that you have the appropriate knowledge anddiscipline to protect their interests and do these things the right way, thenyour competitor, coming in five percent last ten percent, less isgoing to be less of a exasperator. Hey! It's Dr Roxy. Here with a quickbreak from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves youneed to make to survive and thrive in the new Co vid economy? I want everyhealth innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy,which is why I created the Co. Vid proof, Your Business Pivot Kid. Thepivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivotstrategies. It walks you through six categories. You need to examine for athree hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the sixcritical pivot lenses, as you make your way through this comprehensive kit,you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sureyou can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details andopportunities, learn more at legacy: Hyphen Daco Back Kit. So going back to the customer successyou know, and all of the research that I've done is is one of the thingsthat's like just a critical milestone in this commercialization journey isthat when you have those early byer customers making sure that they havethat positive post purchased experience right. The customer success is socritical to being able to cross that chasm into the mainstream market,because those are the people that become the raving fans and theadvocates that then promote word of through word of mouthright. It doesn't even have to be any type of official capacity, but end upbeing those word of mouth marketers for you to extend that trust in thatcredibility to the next set of buyers.

That are a lot more risk averse thatare a lot more hesitant for whatever is new, but you know Bob bought it earlierand Bob said that it's great so now, okay, he had success with it. So thatmeans I will probably have success with it, and I just think that that's socritical we put a lot more emphasis on thelaunch and the clothes and and really kind of forget how toforget the importance of nurturing that post purchase relationship and makingsure that they become advocates and then facilitating that advocacy intothe sales process. Yeah. I agree completely, you know, sowe learned that the hard way right yet we tale and our before customer successwas a common FRIS right. You know shortly after the turn of theMillennium. That's yes, you know we were experienced, Cosexperiencing customer dissatisfaction and we had we're doing software forpolitical traps right and so the software would be configured and itwould be deployed and the teams would be trained and we'd go. Oh See, okay,we're done exactly, but the software wasn't the real project. The clinicaltrial was the real project yeah and so they hand the customer. The key is andgo all support. If you need anything, you know that wasn't working right, andso we called it operational account management because again customers, I thess,wasn't a thing right, but we realized that we needed this systematic approach to helping our customers to experienceoperational success with the technology assets that we've delivered, and oncewe started doing that a lot of things fell into place. A lot ofother things fell into place to where I don't want to give all the credit to mydepartment. You know we had to be an absolutely terrific software. We hadabsolutely re sales people. You know this was a really exciting andwonderful company which to be a part and are talented alumni or throughoutthe industry because of the success that we had yeah, but it really, you know I'll, tell a different angleon it right. So we had a large operation in Europe, alarge operation in the United States. We were growing very very quickly. Wewere hiring project ers. We were a software company for clinical trams, sonot through any discussion, but just because of what people knew or what people thoughtin the United States. We primarily were hiring seasoned, experienced well trained itproject, maters and in Europe we were hiring season,experienced well trained clinical project managers, woden runningclinical trials for pharmaceutical companies or contract researchorganizations and whose knowledge and experience of software was less thantheir American colleagues, but for the...

...anarian colleagues, the knowledge andexperience of what a clinical trial really involved. It was piperly lessthan the European College Siller, and you know we eventually came tounderstand that we were kind of both wrong and both right, you know, but itreally was my European colleagues who first illuminated to me that deliveringthe software wasn't the project. The clinical trial was the project once westarted talking that way once we started talking in terms of ourcustomers project as opposed to ours, and that's when a lot of things reallybegan to fall to place. So you know, when I hear you know youspeak or even myself speak. You know. A lot of this stuff is somewhat common knowledge in the senseof that. It's it's a lot like, intellectually as business leaders. Weknow these things I so we're why? where, and why do we struggle so difficult tolike yeah? It's in my head? It's really easy for me to tell other people whatthey should do, but when it actually comes down to putting in practice,there's just seems to be this disconnect where I kind of forgetwhat's in my head, and you know- and I just overlook those things, it's agreat question right I mean if we can, if we can solve it, I think we'rereally on to something yeah. Let's T we can monitor. I lay my mother, so I received a tax from an old friend,but I hadn't talked to in a while, and this was just purely random. She said Iwas quoting your mother today and I was like about what she's like common senseand common knowledge are not common. No, no! No I'm sorry! I must. I can'tbelieve I can't re yeah an now she's like she's, like your mother, alwaysused to say common sense and common courtesy are not common and you know-and so maybe that's part of the is, but theother part of the answer is it's a lot easier to take a clear, eyed, look atwhat everything else. What everyone else is doing then, to look at ourselves right andreally understand a ORSO know. I think that's really where people like you ormyself come into play, because you know even for ourselves we're in the jar. Wecan't see it when you need that adviser. You need that. Someone that someone onthe outside that can see things much more clearly and again. We know that, but we still, you know thoseinvestments are worth it, no matter how brilliant and how experienced thoseinnovators are within those large organizations or the start up,entrepreneurs, no matter how many times they've done it successfully. You stillneed that thinking partner. You still...

...need that adviser. That's going to helpyou wrestle with all of these choices anddecisions that you're making along the way and get you and hopefully be ableto shine some light on different things that maybe you weren'tgoing to consider before yeah yeah you're. Absolutely right- and you knowI tell people- look you're very good at this right.You've gotten very very far and you've done very well and that's why you're inthe position that you're in you o greatest athletes, the greatestmusician, the greatest performers in the world have trainers and havecoaches, because they are always working on improving their crop. And you know it sometimes depends on WHO's.Bringing you right if the private equity firm is bringing me in, then I'mgreeted by the executive team differently that port as Ben. Maybethat and true that, if the board is bringing me in it was case, I'm breadabout the executive team differently than if the senior was bring right. Butit all begins the same way, which is you know if I go? Oh I'm here to listenand help. Yes, I am here to listen and help, but you know those words: Don'thave a lot of impact right, you have to get in there and you really have tolisten and reflect, and then you know something you and I were talking aboutthe other day right. Every CEO Early in a coachingrelationship will tell me that they need a thought partner. You know withequivalent or greater experience in this part of the businessworld and they have it who will challenge their thinking. You knowsomeone who will try to help them see their blind spots, you know, and theyall believe they mean it when they say it. It sounds so good in the beginning ofthe relationship it finally run that wants to be challenged and to the endof their credit to out of me times in my experience that it really does workin that way right, we leave in Yeah ackle authority problems that have beendifficult to unravel one time out of three. What they really want me to dois you know, raise the level of play of every one of their key function:Leaders across the departments, which I also do right, a these coachingrelationships with you know the head of each core major punctions, but when Istart asking to CEO uncomfortable questionsand then you know all of a sudden, this meeting gets skipped and that meetinggets skipped. You know, then, that that turns out tobe a different experience, so yeah, but you know and look sometimes I'm wrong.You know, but we add value by asking difficult questions. This is something that I believe very,very strongly right and one of the other things you and I have talkedabout- is this idea of relationship before task right, so we're human firstyeah and we do have actual you know... responsibilities for planningand execution. You know and commitments that we may tothe people that are paying us or the people that are counting on us to builda company. So you know I'm a pretty touchy, feely Guy, if we're beinghonest, but it can't all be touching feeling right, but this idea, but thisidea of being human first, this idea of relationship. I Portas this idea of taking the time to know a littlesomething about the people that you're working with and it's actually a new children's bookcoming out called, I think, Ezra's invisible, backpack and the idea. Iknow the author right. So here's a plum, okay, fuck right, but you know the ideathat everyone is carrying weight. No one else can see right and I can't justunderstanding and respecting that during a global pandemic, or you know,when a global pandemic is you know, is but a memory. I think understandingthat everybody has invisible distractions burdens, but that we also all are here to get ajob done. So I think that's really important. Yeah I see in a resurgenceif you will- or I don't know if you Eisenau Gence, but it's it's just muchgreater elevation of the conversation around empathy in business. Right Imean we were really weren't talking about that before, and I think thatthat really coincides with what you're you know talking about. Today is justempathy for our clients for customers, for our clients, customers for theleaders, the board, the P firm. You know just everybody involved and forourselves, Roxy e forgot. You forgot yourself, you know yeaing to encourageyou to show yourself a little empathy, yeah and related, but different, butbut related is the conversation about mental health hm. So mental health is health right. The challenges that wereexperiencing with our brains or our emotions are no less medical, no lessauthentic, no less important and no more our own fault. Then you know her nate disk gave thateelack yeah and I think we are finally starting to makeprogress on this idea. You know in the idea that dealing withTreman resistent depression is critical in treating cancer igri there they're inexorablyintertwined and- and I would say that it's probably intertwined with anyother medical physical medical condition. You know it's, it's allinterconnected,...

...absolutely absolutely! There's a really great organization found it bysome oncologist. They're called son, MON therapies and they're working onthis idea. Right that you know treating cancer is not only about killing cancercells and they're, doing some really exciting stuff, which is really good.So the thing about empathy and relationship before taskand mental health. The way a lot of that manifest itselfin the business world actually is in the critical importance of difficult decisions and difficult conversations m right. Sodifficult conversations are an absolute mission, critical under utilized underappreciatedleadership tool when they're done correctly, whenthey're done with empathy, when they're done with a focus on identifyingproblems and seeking solutions, they strengthen relationships and people and people are relieved thatit's now out there right yeah and if it's done the right way, like you said,like the trust, is deeper, the connection is deeper and you're.Actually the relationship is better for moving through that conflict had theyversus avoiding it right. I agree. Yeah, I mean way back in the early years ofthe first software start up. The customer was very, very upset with us and to the point where, in my opinion,the project manager hadn't done anything wrong, but she needed to bereplaced in order to appease the customer. Oh okay, and- and so you knowso I was so that I was brought in right and told like fix this right and one ofthe first things that I said to the clients like yeah. We really messedthat up and they're like what I'm like. Ohthere shit, I I'm like yeah. We didn't do that. Theway we expect ourselves to handle things. We didn't do it well, you knowwe in being against you. We disappointed you I'm like nobody hereis happy about how that's gone they're like really I'm like yeah real. Youthink you know right right, yeah, so you know, and sometimes you just have to takeownership- maybe not sometimes maybe you know owning your outcomes andowning your responsibilities and accountability. You know, maybe that'san everyday thing. Yeah I mean it. Obviously that plays a part intoleaders and innovators, but just really everyday life. You know, I think it'sso much easier for us to get into a habit of of defending and blamingversus empathy and owning.

You know that kind of stuff, so you know cheers to healthier leadersand healthier businesses. So, as we wrap up here David, it's been a reallywonderful yeah. Let's cheers HMM really wonderful conversation. We couldcertainly continue on much longer, but we do have to wrap up here for the sake of our audience andwhatever they have to do next. So before we wrap up, though, just tellour audience: How can they get a hold of you if they want to reach out to youto talk more about these crucial conversations about customer success,leadership strategy, corporate strategy, any of the things that we've talkedabout today that you have to offer yeah thanks so much roxy. So, first of all,I have the benefit of a relatively uncommon name, and so you can findDavid Fish back on Lindon pretty easily. You can email me at David at ExcelAdvisors, Excel Dash Advisor Scom. You also can read more about who I am andwhat I've done and what we are doing as a team these days on the Excel Avierowebsite. So I look forward to to our conversations, so thank you so much forbeing a guest today, thank you for having you roxy. It's always a pleasure,and you know just a plug for you in termsof the things that you are doing in the health care it market place forcommercialization and bringing real beneficial solutions to solve realproblems for real customers. It shouldn't be underestimated. I don'tthink I don't think the great worth Hinghan you for all that you're doing-and you know I look bored to market in your collaborations- absolutely I'msure, there's more to come. People just for our audience just be on the lookoutfor it thanks so much. Thank you so much for listening. I knowyou're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market, and Ivalue your time and attention to get the latest episodes on your mobiledevice automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast aft, likeApple Podcast, potii and stitcher. Thank you for listening, and Iappreciate every one who shares the show with friends and colleagues, seeyou on the next episode of Health Innovator, a.

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