Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 87 · 1 year ago

It’s not about you, it never was w/ David Fishbach


Building a company that someone wants to buy, instead of the one you want to sell, can be tricky - but it’s almost always necessary if you want your startup to succeed.

Knowing who your customer is, what problems they need to be solved, and whether the problem is big enough to build a successful business model is the price of admission to “product-market fit.”

David Fishbach, Founder and Principal at Excel Executive Business Advisors knows a thing or two about how a startup can increase its chances for success.

Using his extensive experience in the technology, life science, and healthcare fields, he walks our listeners and viewers through the ways a customer’s experience drives success.

Entrepreneurs and startups who are looking for a strong market entry - and exit strategy - for their innovation should take note: it’s not about you, it never was. It’s all about your customer.

Here are the show highlights:

  • Why you need to build a company someone wants to buy, not one you want to sell (3:04)
  • The most compelling founders solve problems they, themselves, have experienced (5:59)
  • Is the problem you’re solving pervasive enough to create a viable business model? (8:22)
  • Understanding the importance of the user’s journey (12:34)
  • Two sustainable competitive advantages to aid in achieving product-market fit (14:09)
  • This is why even the greatest athletes, musicians, and performers have trainers (23:33)

Guest Bio

David Fishbach is the Founder and Principal of Excel Executive Business Advisors, an organization offering corporate strategy, operations, and leadership development in the technology, life sciences, and healthcare space.

His decades of experience in operational, executive, and consultative roles helped him lead teams in the delivery of software, services, and support for clinical trials, and throughout the life cycle of pharmaceutical development and commercialization

David holds a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical & Aerospace Engineering, and a Certificate in Business Strategy from Cornell University.

If you’d like to reach out to David, you can find him on LinkedIn at David Fishbach, or email him at

You're listening to health innovators, a podcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adopters who are shaping the future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back to the show health innovators. On today's episode I am sitting down with David Fishback, who is the founder and principle of Excel executive business advisors. Welcome to the show, David. Thanks Roxy, it's great to see you again and I appreciate you having me. Yeah, absolutely, I'm excited to have this conversation today. But before we get started with our questions, tell our audience a little bit about your background and what you do. Oh sure, thanks for asking. Yeah, so, you know, I started my career in mechanical and Aerospace Engineering and I had pretty traditional engineering roles for the first eight years or so, but right around the year two thousand, all my buddies were joining software startups and I happened to encounter a software startup. Cope face forward, and we were doing what would now be called cloud based systems for clinical research, the testing of drugs and medical devices and the safety and Parmaco vigilants that goes along with those. So that set me on to a different path. You know, I was there early. It was not a founder, but I was there early and we grew very quickly. Made Multiple Acquisitions and operational integrations, both poorly and well. Had Our IPO sold to orgle. I was a good day and I was running customer successful Oracle Health Sciences. That's oracles division with forty plus software and service solutions for the healthcare and life sciences industry. Left there to go to another life sciences software startup, also not as a founder, but to participate in some pretty explosive growth. Had My second IPO. Now for about six years I've had my own strategy, operations and leadership development consultancy. So working primarily with technology, life sciences and healthcare companies and really working on corporate strategies for Keg of planning, operational scale up, operational tuning and then a lot of Leadership Development and coaching. And you know, there's two kinds of consultants in our industry, in in it in general and in healthcare and life sciences. It consultants that call themselves consultants and are picking up the odd project in order to tread water and not look unemployed, while they look for their next full time posting and consultants that are fully committed to doing this as the way they make a living. So I freely confess to anyone roxy that I started out as the first guy. I thought, you know, I would I'd be looking for another executive role with another life science of software start up, but the work came in and it turns out that I really enjoy focusing on the most urgent strategic and tactical priorities with my customers, helping them... to identify and plan and execute, and you know, thus far it's been working out. So thank you for that. And I think that there's a lot of us that have started off and one box and moved to the other. I know so. I sure have at different seasons in my career. So so I want to go back to one of those earlier jobs that you talked about, where you went from being an early stage employee to kind of going through that due diligence and the IPO and kind of selling to Oracle. Is Kind of look back in hindsight. What are some of the lessons that you learned that are around, you know, Innovation Strategy, business strategy, leadership or commercialization. Yeah, great question. Thanks Roxy. You know, first of all just to say I was not, you know, sleeves rolled up, hands on with a lot of the details of those transactions. And you know, we were. We were responsible for the relentless, tactical execution of our commitments to customers. That really is kind of the price of admission to every other conversation that you want to have, or even to an IPO. I mean, I'm going to sound old and maybe a little judge you when I say this is back in the day you had to have happy paying customers in order to go have an IPO. No kidding, I swear it. So you know, we were. You know, we were always selling, we were always trying to improve and grow and because, you know, it was a relatively young category, we also were educating the marketplace and our customers in real time. But really, that idea of selling and delivering and executing the idea of what now is called customer success, although that wasn't really a buzz word in these early days. To me it really is sort of the price of admission to everything else that you're planning or hoping to do. But to specifically to your question, you know how do you get acquired? You get acquired really by building a company that somebody wants to buy, not by building a company that you want to sell. Right, there's a big difference. So the way that you grow into an enormous global powerhouse in your own right and publicly traded, and the way that you grow to a point that you have a book of business and a set of products and happy customers and expertise and market positioning. That is a good puzzle piece to you know, someone who may want to acquire you. The daily tactical execution of that doesn't look very different from each other. Right. I do encounter people whose exit plan is to build and sell, and that's fine, right. I mean, but you can don't really skip over the building part, you know. I mean oys you occasionally, you can trick some people into,... know, overvaluing a platform play that you know is eating an operating loss because it's a market land graph. And sometimes that works, but you know, it's not the play that I would pick from the book. Well, you know, I think that that's really interesting because a lot of the, you know, startup founders that I work with, they don't always have the exit strategy in mind, and they're not necessarily. They are more often building the company that they want to build as opposed or that they want to sell, as opposed to looking at it as building a company that somebody else wants to buy. And I think that there are some decisions that are the same, but there are also some decisions that are pretty different and and show really being able to sort through that up front. I was talking to someone, you know, last year, you know, way before the covid pandemic, and you know they were they were in the early, early stages of their company and I was asking them about their exit strategy and they were like, Whoa, whoaa, we like, we're in like free launch mode, and I'm like yes, like, we need to be able to think about that long distance vision that you have, so that way we're making some of those decisions early on that set you for that right path. Yet, you know, I obviously I don't know all the details of that particular relationship with that particular costomer. In general, I prefer a founder and a founding team and a company that isn't overly focused on the exit strategy. You know, to me the most compelling founders are ones who are trying to solve a problem that they experienced and they think they have a way to ameliorate that experience for other people in the position that they used to have or the responsibilities that they used to have, where they go out and they're trying to, you know, resolve an issue. You know. So the first startup that I was a part of was founded by a guy named Dr Paul blizer. Brilliant physician, brilliant clinician, great guy to right, but he was aiming directly at the things about clinical research that drove him crazy and that he perceived took an inordinate amount of time from his staff without adding value, and that's what he was laser focused on, and I think that was part of why we were successful, was because he was right that he was not the only physician who felt this way or who needed these tools and these improvements. Yeah, you know, and well, yeah, and I think that that's that's definitely a great motivator and a great starting point. One of the pitfalls I see around that approach, though, is that is that problem pervasive enough to create a suct a viable business model around it? And a lot of times when I'm working with innovators, they really do fall in love with the solution that they have... mind to bring to market because they've so they have such personal experience with the problem and are so passionate about how to solve that in their own ecosystem that sometimes tend to, like Creto Crip, skip over critical strategic decisionmaking around, you know, customer discovery or, you know, validating and testing business ideas early on. They're like no, no, no, it's real, I know it and I can skip all of that and then end up bringing something to market, whether it really is no, general market need to have a viable, feasible business around it. But it also, at the same time, is it is a great starting point to kind of ignite that passion of wanting to transform the industry. Right, you're completely right about that. Right, you know, the the critical step of figuring out. Am I really, you know, just one of many who have this problem and would pay for it to be solved? Yeah, and figuring out is the thing that I built really a thing that solves this problem, that relieves this pain? And figuring out, you know, whether the thing that I'm building, that I'm really, you know, very much in love with is already out there in the market place. You know, I I encountered a potential new client. They were very side about what they were doing. They were very excited about what they built and they had a good mvp in the Bible product. Uh, but there were other products already market that already we're doing almost exactly the same thing, and they were deflated when I, you know, pointed them to these. You know, they obviously hadn't even looked right. Anyone else was already doing yeah, so many people are like no one else is doing this, and you was. I just did a simple google search and yes, they are. Was it was the painful moment. But Yeah, fully, you know, it's saved them some wasted effort. Right, everything about that that you're saying right, you know, is the problem big enough? Is the pain real enough? Do People really need this? Will people really pay for it? You know, that comes to a really important point that I make with all of my clients. And Not all my clients are startings right, and I work with some, you know, customers of appreciable size. And when they started telling me, Oh, you know, we are a machine learning ai driven you know, go stop right. You know, we don't sell product, we sell pain relief. Yeah, yeah, so what's the pain? And they go, oh, but we use machiello stop, and that's a big issue. I think that is one of it's I mean getting the communication in the value message or the offer correct, is so it's so simple, but it is extremely difficult and I think that in a lot of ways you can have a lot of other things right, but if you don't get that right, you're going to be set on a...

...path of failure instead of success. I agree with you. I am I usually refer to grandma's pie right, this is how I talk about okay, I go, I go. Okay, you know, you own the kitchen. You've designed and built a lot of the equipment. You bought state of the art equipment. Right. You're really excited to tell me about all of the futures. You know of Grandma's of you know you can do this and this and this. I there will be people who care about that. You know, large enterprise customers. You will want to know what's going on in the kitchen. Anybody who's looking to partner with you, or why are you will want to know what's going on in the kitchen. But most people want to taste the pie. Don't talk about Grandma's oven, talk about grandma's Pie. Yeah, this is really all about how your customers and your users, and especially in the SASS world, especially in healthcare, it not only but especially your customers, the people that are making the buying decision, and your users, the people that are going to have to use this software or this equipment or these tools, are often not the same people, and so you have to pay attention to the customers, Jarney, the buying journey, but also the users journey. You know, you want to talk about how they're going to experience your solution and how are they going to experience it? So and when you can do that? You know, it's funny because you said something along the lines of it's hard and it's easy. I used to work for a guy who said that he always kept two presentations ready to go on his laptop, and one presentation was about how hard this is and the other presentation was about how easy this is when you get the market message right. Yeah, it's so right that it seems so obvious and that it seems so simple, that the amount of work that went into clearing away all of the buzz words and all the what's in all the distractions to really really tune that message and find it and nail it and have every person in the company and every investor and every target customer go, Oh, yeah, I totally get it. Yeah, it's hard to make it look that easy, but when you get it right, you know absolutely. Yeah. So you've talked, you know, quite a bit in some of our earlier conversations around differentiation and competitive advantage and and so kind of just share with our audience what are some of the mishaps around trying to differentiate your solution from other other ones on the market? And then what do we need to do going forward to make sure that we're really are owning the space that we can from a positioning in competitive and standpoint? Yeah, great, great question. Right, in most of...

...these markets, a technological competitive advantage or a feature and function competitive advantage is very, very difficult to establish and impossible to sustain. Yeah, intellectual property notwithstanding, right, the feature and function and technology normalizes and renormalizes very quickly and the customers do it to you without meaning to. They go, Oh, you know what, I love your solution, but your competitor has these purple flags and my boss Love the purple flags because purple this his favorite color. And you guys told the should have purple flags. Right. Next months later, every one of your competitors as purple flags. Yep, you'd always rather be setting the future and function race then, you know, trying to catch up in it, right, but that is not going to be a sustainable competitive so what sustainable competitive advantage? There's really only two in my opinion. One is authentic customer success and the other is trusted partner relationships. So for authentic customer success, you know, customer success gets a lot of buzz words, a lot of conferences, a lot of offering. I define it as post delivery operational success with the use of the liver technology asset right. And so you know, you can think of a piece of exercise of the right. You buy a treadmill for your house and you do all your research and you pick the absolute best possible treadmill for you and six months later, you know it's still being used to dry damn jeans and no one has used the treadmill. Right. So there's nothing wrong with the treadmill, but that was not a successful user experience, right, because the delivered technology asset was not used in the way in which it was intended to be used, and we're not going to blame the user for that, by the way, I gonna blame you know. So it didn't deliver its so, you know, if you are unable to make an Roy workshop return on investment worksheet right, you know what? I'm going to reward this for the positive. Any technology or service provider who wants any target customer to part with money in exchange for a service or solution needs to be able to have a very clear, very simple return on investment worksheet that they can put in front of the client. Yeah, they can say, you know, you have, you know, a hundred clinicians and in four locations and in general we find that in the organization of your size you spend about x hours on this Manu repeated task. That sound about right. And they go, I never thought about for they go, Oh, actually, it's more they oh, no, it's less right. But you have to take them through the ways in which you are...

...going to make things better. For it right. We don't sell product, they don't sell service, we sell pain relief. Yeah, yeah, do that. You don't have your market message. You don't have your market fit yet. If you can't explain, you can say it's the coolest tech. It learns, you know, by watching you, and then it starts taking over for okay, that's cool, that's machine learning. I love it. A total technology. Right. But how the user experiences that? Right, what happens for them? You know, we don't sell product, we sell pain relief. So Roy and customer success, which I consider to go together, right, good experience and it was worth the purchase, is one of, in my opinion, the only two sustainable competitive advantages, and the other one is relationships. Right. There are certain portions of this market, especially in health care, where the risks are too high not to work with the trusted pair of hails. And so if your customers trust that you will make certain they are successful, and if they trust that you have the appropriate knowledge and discipline to protect their interests and do these things the right way, then your competitor coming in five percent, last, ten percent last, is going to be less of the next stantual crap. Sure, Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy. I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools, tips and s strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities. Learn more at legacy and DNACOM backslash kit. So going back to the customer success, you know, and all of the research that I've done is is one of the things that's like just a critical milestone in this commercialization journey is that when you have those early buy your customers, making sure that they have that positive post purchased experience right the customers success is so critical to being able to across that chasm into the mainstream market, because those are the people that become the raving fans and the advocates that then promote word of through word of mouth. Right, it doesn't even have to be any type of official capacity, but end up being those word of mouth marketers for you to extend that trust and that credibility to the next set of buyers that are a lot more risk...

...averse, that are a lot more hesitant for whatever is new. But you know, Bob bought it earlier and Bob said that it's great. So now, okay, he had success with it, so that means I will probably have success with it, and I just think that that's so critical. We put a lot more emphasis on the launch in the close and and really kind of forget how to forget the importance of nurturing that post purchase relationship and making sure that they become advocates and then facilitating that advocacy into the sales process. Yeah, I agree completely. You know, we we learned that the Hardaway, right, we and our before customer success was a common for us, right, you know, shortly after the turn of the Millennium. That's yes, you know, we were experienced custom experiencing customer dissatisfaction and we had we're doing software for political jobs. Right, and so the software would be configured and would be deployed and the teams would be trained and we'd go see, okay, we're done exactly. But the software wasn't the real project. The clinical trial was the real project. Yeah, and so day and the customer. The key is and go call support if you need anything. You know, that wasn't working, right, and so we called it operational account management because, again, customer success wasn't a thing, right, but we realize that we needed this systematic approach to helping our customers to experience operational success with the technology assets that we've delivered. And once we started doing that, a lot of things fell into place. A lot of other things fell into place to right, I don't want to give all the credit to my department. And you know, we had absolutely truepic software, we had absolutely ripely sales people. You know, this was a really exciting and wonderful company which to be apart and our talented alumni or throughout the industry because of the success that we had. Yeah, but it really you know, I'll tell a different angle on it. Right. So we had a large operation in Europe, the large operation of the United States we were growing very, very quickly. We were hiring project we were a software company for clinical products. So not through any discussion, but just because of what people knew or what people thought. In the United States we've primarily or hiring seasoned, experienced, well trained it project managers, and in Europe we were hiring season experienced, well trained clinical project managers. We've been running clinical trials for pharmaceutical companies or contract research organizations and whose knowledge and experience of software was less than their American colleagues.

But for the American colleagues, the knowledge and experience of what a clinical trial really involved was typically less than the European colleague. Sure, and you know, we eventually came to understand that we were kind of both wrong and both right, you know, but it really was my European colleagues who first illuminated to me that delivering the software wasn't the project. The clinical trial was the project. MMM, once we started talking that way, once we started talking in terms of our customers project as opposed to ours, that's when a lot of things really began to fall to place. So, you know, when I hear you, know you speak, or even myself speak, you know, a lot of this stuff is somewhat common knowledge in the sense of that it's it's a lot like intellectually, as business leaders, we know these things. So we're why, where? And why do we struggle so difficult to like, yeah, it's in my head. It's really easy for me to tell other people what they should do, but when it actually comes down and putting in practice, there's just seems to be this disconnect where kind of forget what's in my head and you know, and I just overlook those things. It's a great question, right, I mean, if we can, if we can solve it, I think we're really onto something. Yeah, let's just we can monitorze that Labor. My mother. So I received a text from an old friend that I hadn't talked to in a while, and this was just purely random, but she said I was quoting your mother today and I was like about what she's like, common sense and common knowledge are not common. No, no, I'm sorry, I'm muft to I can't believe yeah, she's like, she's like your mother always used to say common sense and common courtesy are not common, you know, and so maybe that's part of the answer, but the other part of the answer is it's a lot easier to take a clear eyed look at what everything else, what everyone else is doing, then to look at ourselves right and really understand our so, you know, I think that's really where people like you or myself come into play because, you know, even for ourselves, were in the jar. We can't see it. But you need that advisor, you need that someone that that someone on the outside that can see things much more clearly. And again, we know that, but we still, you know, those investments are worth it. No matter how brilliant and how experienced those innovators are within those Lord organizations or the startup entrepreneurs, no matter how many times they've done it successfully, you still need that thinking partner, you still need that advisor...

...that's going to help you wrestle with all of these choices and decisions that you're making along the way and get you and hopefully be able to shine some light on different things that maybe you weren't going to consider before. Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. And you know, I tell people, look, you're very good at this right you've gotten very, very far and you've done very well and that's why you're in the position that you're in. Yeah, greatest athletes, the greatest musicians, the greatest performers in the world have trainers and have coaches because they are always working on improving their craft. And you know, it sometimes depends on who's bringing you in. Right, if the private equity firm is bringing me in, then I'm greeted by the executive team differently. That's very bad. Truth, the board is bringing me in, there was case I'm good by the executive team differently than if the scene, you know, is bringing right, yeah, but it all begins the same way, which is, you know, if I go, Oh, I'm here to listen and help. Yes, I am here to listen and help, but you know, those words don't have a lot of impact. Right, you have to get in there and you really have to listen and reflect. And then, you know something you and I were talking about the other day. Right, every CEO, early in a coaching relationship, will tell me that they need a thought partner, you know, with equivalent or greater experience in this part of the business world than they have. All right, one who will challenge their thinking, you know, someone who will try to help them see their blind spots, you know, and they all believe they mean it when they say it. It sounds so good in the beginning of the relationship and it's finally run that wants to be challenged and to the end. To their credit, two out of three times, in my experience that it really does work that way. Right, we leave in yeah, tackle the thorny problems that have been difficult to unravel. One time out of three. What they really want me to do is, you know, raise the level of play of every one of their key functional leaders across the departments, which I also do. Right, he's coaching relationships with, you know, the head of each core major function. But when I start asking to see uncomfortable questions and then, you know, all of a sudden this meeting gets skipped in that meeting gets skipped, you know, than that, that turns out to be a different experience. So, yeah, but you know, and look, sometimes I'm wrong, you know, but we add value by asking difficult questions. This is something that I believe very, very strongly. Right, one of the things you and I have talked about is is this idea of relationship or for task. Right, so we're human first. Yeah,...

...and we do have actual you know, business responsibilities for planning and execution, you know, and commitments that we may do the people that are paying us or to the people that are counting on us to build a company. So, you know, I'm a pretty touchy feeling guy, if we're being honest. But it can't all be touchy feeling, right. This idea, but this idea of being human first, this idea of relationship or for task, this idea of taking the time to know a little something about the people that you're working with. And it's actually a new children's book coming out called, I think as was, invisible backpack, and the idea, I know the author right. So here's a plan, okay, right. But you know, the idea that everyone is carrying weight no one else can see, right, and I think just understanding and respecting that during a global pandemic, or you know when a global pandemic is, you know, is but a memory. I think understand ending that everybody has invisible distractions, burdens, but that we also all are here to get a job done. So I think that's really important. But yeah, I've seen a resurgence, if you will, or I don't know if you did send a resurgence, but it's it's just much greater elevation of the conversation around empathy in business, right. I mean, we were really weren't talking about that before, and I think that that really coincides with what you're, you know, talking about today. Is just empathy for our clients, for our customers, for our clients customers, for the leaders to the board, the P firm, you know, just everybody involved and everywhere ourselves. Roxy Forgot you forgot yourself. You know, I'm going to encourage you to show yourself a little empathy. Yeah, and related, but different. But but related is the conversation about mental health. HMM, so mental health is health. Right, the challenges that we're experiencing with our brains or our emotions are no less medical, no less authentic, no less important and no more our own fault than, you know, her neated Disk Inn that ar broken leg. Yeah, and I think we are finally starting to make progress on this idea, you know, I'm the idea that dealing with treatment resistant depression is critical in treating cancer. Right there, they're inexorably intertwined and and I would say that it's probably intertwined with any other medical, physical medical condition you know, it's it's all interconnected. Absolutely.

Absolutely. There's a really great organization founded by some ecologists called sense on therapies, and they're working on this idea, right that, you know, treating cancer is not only about killing cancer cells, and they're doing some really exciting stuff which is really good. So the thing about empathy and relationship before task and mental health, the way a lot of that manifest itself in the business world actually is in the critical importance of difficult decisions and difficult conversations. M Right. So difficult conversations are an absolute mission, critical under utilized, under appreciated leadership tool. When they're done correctly, when they're done with empathy, when they're done with a focus on identifying problems and seeking solutions, they strengthen relationships and people and people are relieved that it's now out there, right. Yeah, and if it's done the right way, like you said, like the trust is deeper, the connection is deeper and you're actually the relationship is better for moving through that conflict had they versus avoiding it, right. I agree. Yeah, I mean way back in the early years of the first software startup, a customer was very, very upset with us and to the point where, in my opinion, the project manager hadn't done anything wrong, but she needed to be replaced in order to appease the customer. Right, Oh, okay. So you know. So I was so that I was brought in right and told like fix this right, and one of the first things that I said to the clients like yeah, we really mess that up, and they're like what? I'm like, ownership. I'm like, yeah, we didn't do that the way we expect ourselves to handle things. We didn't do it well. You know, we inconvene ins you, we disappointed you. I'm like, nobody here is happy about how that's gone. They're like really. I'm like yeah, really, do you think you know right? Right, yeah, so, you know, and sometimes you just have to take ownership. Maybe not sometimes, maybe, you know, owning your outcomes and owning your responsibilities and accountability. You know, maybe that's an everyday thing. Yeah, I mean, and obviously that plays a part into leaders and innovators, but just really everyday life. You know, I think it's so much easier for us to get into a habit of defending and blaming versus empathy and owning. You know, that kind of stuff. So, you...

...know, cheers to healthier leaders and healthier businesses. So, as we wrap up here, David, it's been a really wonderful yell. Let's cheers. HMM, really wonderful conversation. We could certainly continue on much longer, but I we do have to wrap up here for the sake of our audience and whatever they have to do next. So, before we wrap up, though, just tell our audience how can they get ahold of you if they want to reach out to you to talk more about these crucial conversations about customer success, leadership strategy, corporate strategy, any of the things that we've talked about today that you have to offer. Yeah, thanks so much. Roxy So, first of all, I have the benefit of a relatively uncommon name and so you can find David fishback on linkedin pretty easily. You can email me at David at excel advice. There's ex CEL adds o RSCOM. You also can read more about who I am and what I've done and what we are doing as a team these days on the Excel Advisorscom website. So I look forward to to our conversations. So thank you so much for being a guest today. Thank you for having me Roxy It's always a pleasure and, you know, just a plug for you in terms of the things that you are doing in the healthcare it market place for commercialization and bringing real beneficial solutions to solve real problems for real customers. It shouldn't be underestimated, I don't think. I don't think the great work that you're thank you for all that you're doing and you know, I look forward to our continue collaborations. Absolutely I'm sure there's more to come. People just are our audience. Just be on the lookout for it. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who shared the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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