Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 86 · 6 months ago

How to build a better lemonade stand w/ Dave Whelan


Product-market fit can sometimes seem like an exotic term that no one can really define with any level of simplicity - until now.

When asked for his take on the subject, Dave Whelan, CEO of BioscienceLA brought a “when life gives you lemons, make lemonade” approach to the table.

Using a simple lemonade stand as a metaphor for startups, Dave breaks down product-market fit using target markets, pricing, and product solutions in an easily digestible example.

His decades-long experience in many branches of the healthcare industry has helped him hone his unique and effective understanding of how product-market fit and commercialization work.

And on this week’s episode, he’s bringing that expertise to our viewers.

If you’re an entrepreneur and product-market fit has eluded or confused you - or you’re just not sure how to begin commercializing your innovation - this is your episode!

Here are the show highlights:

  • Why product-market fit is mission-critical (15:05)
  • Are you wasting time or money doing this? (23:15)
  • Myths, barriers, or pitfalls of commercialization (24:13)
  • How to run a successful “lemonade stand” (31:54)
  • This is what product-market fit looks like (36:37)
  • Next-level marketing strategy (37:53)

Guest Bio

David Whelan is CEO of BioscienceLA, a company with a passion for nurturing a vibrant ecosystem that will create new opportunities for all stakeholders.

A seasoned strategy, business development, and general management executive, Dave inspires entrepreneurs at the intersection of technology, health, and wellness.

His experience spans genomics, wearables, digital health, consumer health, wellness and nutrition, enterprise health services, and healthcare providers, among other areas.

Dave earned an MBA from the UCLA Anderson School, a BS in Symbolic Systems from Stanford University, and has studied at London Business School and Carnegie Mellon University.

If you’d like to reach out to Dave, you can find him on LinkedIn at Dave Whelan, on Twitter at @djwhelan, or visit

You're listening to health, innovators,a podcast and video show about the leaders influencers and early adopterswho are shaping the future of health care on your host Doctor Roxey movie welcome back health innovators. Ontoday's episode I am sitting down with Dave whalen who's, the CEO of Biocca,welcome to the show Dave Ray. Thank you so much for happening me. I'm soexcited awesome. So let's get started bytelling our audience a little bit about who you are what you do, what you'vebeen innovating these days right. So for many years I've I've saidthat I am a consultant who basically inspires entrepreneurs at theintersection of technology, health and wellness, and that's been a journeythat I've been on for many years. I think of myself as a technologist. Istudied artificial intelligence once upon a time a long time ago he came aIII was cool so so much before it was cool that I ended up becoming an it guyfor a venture capital firm and then becoming an executive recruiter andeventually going to business school. So technology guy turned a business. GuyTurned turned health business guy got into that through the the wearablespace and then spent some time in the world of Genomic, and before I knew it, I was buildingbusinesses and inspiring entrepreneurs at this intersection that pulls inhealth data and new health technologies, sometimes on the biotech side,sometimes on the Med tex side, sometimes on digital health, and so over the years I'm based in Los Angeles,I've lived in La for twenty years, but a lot of my time over over the pasttwenty years has been working with organizations and ecosystem and otherplaces a lot of time in New York a lot of time elsewhere. The area things likethat and every time it came back to la I would say- or my wife would say, it'slike H, Y W Y. Why arn't you doing more of that kind of cool stuff here, in LosAngeles and thankfully, a group led by Los Angeles County a few years ago was-was kicking off initiative. That became this organization by a Science La andso I joined last year as the first permanent CEO bio science la to reallylead the charge to grow the life sciences and health, innovation,ecosystem sort of the innovation ecosystem in the Greater La regionwhich to me, is growing funding, growing space, growing talent and thengrowing the entire messaging around that to create awareness, so what's happening in La you know, arethere some different trends that are happening? Maybe there in that pocketor market compared to some other places across the nation or across the globe.Yeah I mean, I think, there's there's you know, I will say: There's both alot and still not enough and part of you know, part of what we have in LosAngeles is you know we, along with New York, a lot of similarities and sinceI've spent time there, I tend to draw those we're both massive metro regions,huge populations, hugely diverse populations, and you know diverse fromfrom a you know: ethnic. You know racial socioeconomic background, butalso diversity of industries. So I would say you know, I always point toLa in New York is sort of the two places in the in the US for sure whereyou, quite literally, every industry exists here. So you know, people thinkof Los Angeles is being entertainment and it is- and you know it's alsoaerospace- it's also a peril, and then you go a little further afield. It'sit's manufacturing of all times, Los Angeles has actually e the largestmanufacturing hub in the US and so and we're also a huge transportation hub,and so you take all of those other... and you layer. This growinglife science is innovation economy which is not just about biotech. So when I always what I always caution,people especially my board, is that you know we're we're not trying to create abiotech cub. You know, biofeedback rivals the bay area, arrivals, Boston.I think there's a lot of depths there that that's not what we will become ourgoal. If I don't, we become a better version of the La that we have, whichis this amazing mix of biotech and Ned tact and digital health. We havearguably the the greatest talent and technology around a R and Vr fordigital therapeutics and again part of that. Incidentally, ties back to themedia, entertainment industry that we have here. We've got great ai aroundclinical trials and then we've even got some really. You know interestingleadership around you know. A Meno therapy is that youhave carte a kite. Your kite was founded here and now part of Gilead,and so we've got some amazing sort of not just pockets the sort of threads ofinnovation, along with some amazing academic institutions that produce some of the the greatest mindsin the in the country, and now we have an opportunity to really help move theminto to companies. Yeah. I like how you mentioned this potential convergencebetween the creativity of the entertainment industry in convergingwith the health care. I mean, that's so needed yeah. It's I mean it's, you know we andyou know part of it. You know I certainly use it for from the LosAngeles story standpoint, because what I one of the other messages I've beensort of sharing within the community is, if we want the world to know about.What's going on in Los Angeles, we have to make sure that Los Angeles knowswhat's going on a lot canclaus first, and how do you tell your story so thatyour your neighbors know what you're doing you know? How do you tell a lifescience story here, such that those aerospace, people and government peopleand academics understand what's going on, but no broader, broader story aboutmedia, I think is so important and you know we've certainly seen you know the past. Obviously, we'veseen so many things over the over the past year, but I think one of thethreads that is very apparent. There is this idea of communications and engagement andawareness, and it's you know we talk a lot about access tohealth care, but you don't even get to access to health care until you get toawareness to health care which comes from the right messaging communications,around health care and if we could channel the media and entertainmentindustries to actually be more partners in that there's a huge opportunity, notjust for La not just for the US, but for the whole world in terms of how newinnovations are shared, new challenges or shared and people actually takeaction. So so, let's talk about that a little bit, let's just jump right intothe meat of it right. We talk a lot about commercialization here. Howimportant like, what's happening from your perspective, around thecommunication and the media and the awareness and the messaging and valueprops and all that stuff, and and what do we need to do about it? Yeah Yeah. I use a couple a couple ofexamples and one is sort of I'll call it more. On the you know: The consumers, the consumerside of health and wellness. You know more on the wellness side. Soif you look at the past some of us in the past ten years, your companies like net Flix, have been, I think, very active in the in thedocumentary space, and you know if you would a if you'd ask me fifteen yearsago. Do people want to see a documentary about? You know nutrition,I would have said I don't know. Maybe maybe one right and you know- nets likeNetlik has produced like twenty five...

...documentaries about nutrition over thepast. You know several years a e home last night and said he's no longereating seafood because he just watched this documentary on seafood last night.With that Flix an I one of the one of the companiesI'm advising just recommended. I I watched that documentary. So it'svery good, they're working on a you know, sell cell based, you know, sellbased. You know, meat technology for for Lupin, tuna and they're developing this here in Los Angeles.It's that's a that space is another interesting. We could. We could talkabout synthetic biology to, but on the media side, so you've got you've, gotcommunications sort of from that consumer media side of things, but youknow we also continue to be in this mode of as as much as I think everyone thinksabout you know we affordable par act and sort of you know, acts like that'sbeen here forever and sort of consumer consumer access and awareness to healthcare has been around forever. You know we're still in the early stages of thatand it's you know, continues to evolve and so the more that we have consumersmaking decisions about health care, asking questions about health care, themore we have consumers with access to you know with access to phones withdata with access to wearables, with data, whether they're consumer, facingtools or more, like you know, diabetes, technologies. Things like that. Themore of those are out there, the more there are questions coming from bothpatients and consumers, whether it's family members or just you know otherconsumers, the more we need to find ways to get information in a in a timelyfashion. In a in a sort of package able fashion to to individuals, so they canunderstand it and you, some of that is some of that is how do we, you knowembrace tick, Tock or snap or whatever the you know, whatever the newtechnology of the day is you know some of it here in La we have a fewcompanies. You know one called Impulse Mobile. That works a lot with textmessaging, so text messages that come from your physician or text messagesthat come from from a company like me, tronic to a to a physician or to someone within ahospital, that's helping to guide them and what they should be doing. We havecompanies that are producing video content for for patients, a company called MotiSpark. That's really about you know, sharing these what they call sparks.Basically, these little bursts of inspiration or births of guidance thatwill help people do the right thing which you know might be. How do we eattoday? It might be how to we exercise an. I also might be you know. Did youtake your mends, or did you remember to go back for the second vaccine shot orthings like that? There's a lot that we can do just in terms of connecting withpeople where they are in the voice that they're expecting, which again is? As we talked aboutdiversity in Los Angeles, you know that voice is, is many many languages? It'smany many approaches, it's being you know it's being in the right place atthe right time, with the right message and approach to help people make abetter decision yeah, so so dave. How important is this to thecommercialization process and where, where are we getting it wrong like?Where is it you know? What are we doing incorrectly that we need to likerecalibrate or reset yeah? It's a Gret, it's a great question. Then you know itespecially here in La because I see both sides. You looked at for thetraditional called by if biofeedback, the traditional side of life sciences,Innovation and then digital health is your clearly the newer side. Yeah, Ithink it's you know not black and white, but I would say- and you know in someways- you know in some ways the biopsy... more of the old model, which is, youknow clearly trying to salivate problem, trying to solve a problem in the enduser, but not necessarily for the end user. So it's trying to try to tackle a disease or somethinglike that, but not necessarily understanding who that end user is how they will re.You know how they will relate to it and you, so you know some things like postcome into that. Certainly- and you challenges around that, but I think ifyou look at, if things go more digital, we see companies that are taking moreof this design. You know design thinking, viewpoint, this user centerreview point and- and that's not always that's not always right, because Ithink sometimes we end up with the complete other side of the pendulum,which is we have technologists sort of working on. You know working on theuser and really understanding the user, but then somewhere in the middlethey've missed you know actually solving the problem right. So it's likea bisness component. You Guy was the business right. Yes, no of customersays they love and they'll buy, but really they not going to buy right.It's not ible or feasible for the business yeah yeah exactly, and so Ithink you know clearly clearly were we understand where we want to go withthat. What what I think is great that I'm seeing more of is some of thosetraditional companies, whether they're by a Farma, whether they're big device,you know and companies are teaming up with the digital companies and findingways to use some of the data coming fromdigital health to help inform the development process of things clinicaltrials is one where we've seen huge tribes, huge stridesand recruitment of clinical trials, and you know companies, like you, know,apples involved in clinical trials through through their research kit,product and companies. Here, like science, thirty seven are involved with you know, getting a better populationof political trials faster or even even virtual. You know virtualised patientdata, randomize patient data things like that.All of that can help to move that process forward faster and start tostart to get to solutions faster and hopefully, again the past year. At somany examples there, you know whether it's the move into Tellah tell amedicine finally or patience understanding that if they have, ifthey have some kind of data, you know in that data might just be. Temperaturemight just be how you're feeling, but now there's finally ways for a patientto take something happen to them and get it to their physician. That doesn'tinvolve a fax machine any more and that's that's pretty exciting. That's athat's a huge! You know huge boost of productivity. I hope that's a wholenother episode, Dave the whole facts, Chan. What happened to the fact machineor what's still happening, the sack machine? Yes, it's ludicrous, but in some ways it can still beeffective. It's just embarrassingly effective right, W e Christen w now the biggestchallenges you know on the consumer side as well. How do you, where do youfind a fat Cochin to actually sack something to the doctor right, Iexactly so what it from your perspective, what doyou think is the the number one strategy? That's really missing:mission, critical for Commercial Success Yeah. I think this is. This is m, maybethe maybe the easy answer, but I always go back to that early stage of you know.How do you understand? How do you get to product market fit? Which is really?How do you understand who that customer is who the customers are and that youknow again that could be from on the enterprise level? You've got thefinancial customer. You've got the you...

...know, executive decision makingcustomer you have the customers actually using it. Maybe you have theend user patient, but really taking the time to understand who those individuals are who thosepersonas are really understanding, what theirindividual pain points are and they're, probably different across those, andthen making sure that the product that you're developing is eventually goingto address a lot of those. But it's also not going to address a lot ofthose on day one because if you try to do that, you're never going to launchthis product. So where do you want to go and then you know move it back towhether you call it? You know minimum viable product or call it the you knowyour. You know your you know early. You know early data, you know pilot sort ofopportunity, but making sure that there's there's a real story line there.Where do you want to go? Where do you start and how do you know that whatyour building is actually going to help doing that, and I think that you know Iwork with. I've worked with a lot of companies that are sort of in the call it the the venture or want to beventure future venture back world, and then I work with companies that aregoing through Ns and NI h. You know Sbir grants and things likethat, and you know. Interestingly, the the NS in particular really has astrong process around that early data gathering understand the market. Youknow interview custoses things like that and if you're going through a anaccelerator program, a Tech Stars program or something like that, whycombinator they do a really good job with that as well. Sometimes, whenyou're, an entre printer or three entrepreneurs working on a text startup, and you know where you want to go, think you know where you want to go andyou start building it. Those are the groups that sometimes forget to talk tothe customers. You know until they're in front of the venture. Capitalistasking for you know asking for an investment in the DC says: Well howmany, how many customers have you talked to and they sort of lookedaround and say we I I mean my brother would really love this product itexactly. Oh, my gosh. We a all the time on that ship on this show. This is likeone of my soap boxes, so I'm going to ask you so I face this more than Iwould ever want is that you have the innovator. They are so committed andsomewhat obsessed with the innovation in the configuration that they believethey want, that they want to bring to market, and you know, they've had someconversations with people like you said people say they love it. People saythey will buy it. Just people right, but no hard data to validate the demandfor it and they skip to you know. Can you help build a go tomarket strategy and plan? Can you help with digital advertising? So we canbuild awareness? What do you say to I'll? Tell you what I say, but I wantto know what you say to those folks that really want to skip all of thesereally key steps. What do you say yeah well spit? Firstof all, I have I have a little a side story, because I just I remember this was something I was talking to a weekor so ago. I many years ago when I was graduating with my artificialintelligence degree and trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I wasinterviewing with an educational software company, for you know it wasfor a product product manager. You know product, you know, assistant, you knowmanager, whatever role, and I remember sitting across from the the interviewerwho was like the head of product for the company, and you know we're in theheat of the interview, and he says he said you know Dave. If I you know, if Igave you a piece of paper, you know, could you you? Could you map out aproduct plan for a new, a new piece of soft know, a new APP we want to do, andI, of course you know I was. I was twenty one years old and like o thisGuywas, I need to know how to do this,... I'm like well yeah. I would you know,and I started to like- do something and he's like it's like Dave. No, you couldnot do that, like you, do not have any of the information to do this, so donot jump into that and I feel like that's what these entrepreneurs arelike sometimes, and so I really do you know, tell them to stop slow down, andyou know, let's again, you know understand you now do we knowwhere we are today. Do we know where we want to go and do we know how we thinkwe'll get there along the way, especially knowing that, ultimately,even if you have a really good plan based on data based on customerfeedback, invariably you're going to take a turn along the way, becausethey're going to realize that something that you, even if you plan it reallywell, something you thought was correct is not there. So, even if you plan really well you'restill not going to take a straight line. Clearly, if you don't plan at allyou're, absolutely not going to take a straight line and maybe you're lyingover made of your line is doing in the wrong direction, and so you know I I milione that nobody wantsright right. I do you know I do send a lot of people back to the drawing boardand I was talking to some entrepreneurs recently, where they're in again very very passionateand there they're talking- and this is all over too. Of course it's a littleharder, but you know they're talking about what they're doing and then I wasI was just like look. There's there's clearly an opportunity, I know, there'sa need and what you're talking about but, like I don't think you even have aproduct here yet like like. Let's figure out like we know, there's aproblem now, let's figure out what we're building that's going to addressthat problem, not just hey, there's a problem: let's get in there because wecan. You know we can fix the problem and I think that's the differencebetween sort of you know if you are a if you are atechnologist. Sometimes there is that I guess it's the the mechanic versusthe engineer, sort of sort of minse right and like sometimes acknowledge usact like mechanics and like we. We need mechanics. There's great, you know,there's lots of places where mechanics are needed, but you don't tend to builda company based on being a mechanic. You build a company based on being anengineer, even if what you're engineering is actually something thatother people use as a mechanic for their problem, but you still need toengineer a product engineer, a business as opposed to trying to fix someone.You know someone's individual private product or yeah. Probably absolutely so.You know two things come to mind. One is that you know just acknowledgingit's hard right, so it's so much easier for us to give that wisdom to otherpeople than to take it for ourselves. Right I mean I have I mean likeliterally, maybe not so literally, but like left apresentation that I gave on how important it is to co, create with yourcustomers and then went into the rand room and started innovating thestrategy product that no one had ever validated, but I was so passionate andso sure that everybody was going to want it, and it's like. Oh my gosh,it's just hard yeah yeah a as I like to say, I'm very good at giving thisguidance to people, because I've had lots of personal failures where I'vetotally missed that. So I definitely know what happens when you fail thereright right exactly you know. The other thing is you know. Sometimes you knowwhen- and I'm sure you face this too- is that when you you get people thatare just digging their heels and and they're so strong. You know you justhave to say. Well, then I'm not the right consultant, I'm not the rightstrategist for you, because I am not going to. I won't be able to sleep atnight if I'm, if I'm part of you pouring money into building anawareness campaign for something that I really think is, has no chance ofsuccess...

...and I'm sure you'll be able to findsomeone else. That will waste your money, but it won't be me right. I've definitely used that beforethen, of course, there's the ones who that, like they look at that as reversepsychology, and they say- oh wait, okay, wait! Now! I will change my ways. Iwant to work with you, so sometimes it actually works in the end. Yeah Yepexactly you're right. It does sometimes it does it, and sometimes I'm like allright, come back and see me in two years: Yeah, Hey! It's Dr Roxy, here with a quickbreak from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves youneed to make to survive and thrive in the new Co vid economy? I want everyhealth innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivit strategy,which is why I created the coid proof. Your Business Pisoti, the pivot kit isa step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategies. Itwalks you through six categories. You need to examine for a three hundred andsixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses,as you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed withthe tools, chips and strategies you need to make sure you can pit it withspeed without missing out on critical details and opportunities, learn moreat legacy: Hyphen Daco backlaid. Let's talk about some of them and youcan kind of pick which ones you want to talk about, but what are some of themyths, barriers or pitfalls of commercialization that we haven'ttalked about yet? HMM, that's a very, very, very goodquestion so, and I think I touched I touched on a little a little bit, but Ithink it bears. It bears repeating this idea that you, you know you need to understandwhat the fully what the fully baked product you know and not even the sillybig pret. I feel like a lot of a lot of entrepreneurs feel like they have tounderstand what versions three point: Oh, isn't going to be exactly before:They've even launched. You Know Beta zero point one, and so I think and again part of that mightcome from people like us talking about understand the customer and plan andmake sure you have this whole thing and they sort of take it to the extreme andso part of it is you. Nobody knows what version three point: Oh is going to beabsolutely, and so you know have a North Star which might be version tenpoint. Oh, but then you've got to work back and you're really focusing on. Howdo you get from? You know pilot to Beta to to launch, and so you know dream.You know think big, but then plan you know, Plan Small and incrementally Ithink that's one of the things that gets the guest people hung up yeah. You know funny that reminds me. Ihad a frank ricotta on the show a couple of months ago and he was gettinga lot of feedback, not necessarily from customers, more so probably from hisboard and his investors, and after several years in he just he was lookingat like his original business partner and said you know what this is reallynot even the business that we want to be in like what happened. How did weget here? So they were listening, but listening to maybe some of the some ofthem. I don't want to say the wrong people, because they absolutely shouldhave a voice and then he completely pivoted about a year ago and said no,I'm getting back to my nose star, I'm getting back to the dream and thevision that I had originally and he's bent do tremendously well the last year yeah exactly and I think those takingtaking time to realize those and sometimes taking time to scrap you know what you've been doing for thepast month or the past year, or it can be hard, but it's all so essential got.I think you know one of the other one of the other myths, especially withwith early stage companies, is that competition is bad or when you, youknow, you're working your kind of heads...

...down working on something that youthink is. You know this innovative new mouse trap, and then you put it putyour head out and you're like Oh wait. They have a new mouse trap and theyhave a new mass trap and some people look at that and say we're done. We shouldn't even beworking on this, and you know that sometimes that's true, but I tend touse that example with with entrepreneurs to say well. First of all,this clearly means that there are people out there who are looking foranother house trap. So we are we're in the right business like this ses. Theright I can be broking on and I know, and then it comes down to you know maybe they're not in exactlythe same market. Maybe they aren't even going to execute on this. You knowmaybe they've just you know, announced this. Vapor were a thing that willnever come out, and so, if we can actually build this and do what youknow do what the competition has now just gotten the public excited about,then we're going to be huge winters here and so that whole idea of likedon't quit just because, even if it's exactly the same thing, becausesometimes exactly the same thing never comes to market doesn't actually workor eventually people don't like, and they like your product yeah. I meanthat that is so true. I mean look MacDonald's burer King and Wendy's,some kind of way they've carved out their mark, their space, their marketcustomer in a very commoditie market, yeah, exactly exact, I think, there'seven more. You know that and that's a that's a great example, because you gotthose but then you've got then you could put in like the chick fillet orKaf or whatever, and so there is the yeah you know. Are we talking aboutcompeting with restaurants? Are we talking about competing with the kindof food product? And so it's like the you look at, especially in digitalhealth. We have, you know a huge number of chronicdisease management. You know tools, platforms, resources out there and moreevery day, and so that looks like a crowded market, but it's also there'scontinuing to be new entrance and obvioussly. A lot of you know M A andshits going on, and then you know, are we talking about kinic diseasemanagement or are we talking about a solution for diabetes? Is a solutionfor obesity, a solution for living with cancer, and so you can take any one of those you couldtake. The top level you could take one of these niches within it. You couldtake that for a certain population, you could take it, for you know a certaingeography. I think, there's there's massive opportunities. If you find yourright, you know find that right niche in a very big market yeah. You know,I'm so glad that you brought that up, because I do think that that is astrong myth. I talked to a lot of people that think that being first tomarket is, there is the winning strategy and they really overlook a lotof the advantages of being a follower or even being a late follower. I meanone of the advantages that comes to mind. Is You get an opportunity to seewhat worked well and what didn't work and then carve out your competitiveadvantage in that space, or you might even had someone that was first tomarket that went through all the expense of creating that new marketcategory that you don't have to fork out now right now, absolutely- and Ithink you know, I'm a big big apple user and Apple Fan as abusiness, and you know, sort of apple for as in as innovated as people alwaystalk about apple being, you know, in some ways, apple is most famous for taking five or ten technologies thatare already out there already proven they package them together. They add alittle bit of you, know, magical PASA around it for sure, and then that'sthat's their product and and- and I think so many times you the Apple Watchand the you know the I phone before it- and things like that were examples ofthis- is already out there. It's just nobody cares because it doesn't work.Quite you know quite well enough, and it's about that. You know repackagingit with a certain. You know with a certain brand to it and I do thinkthere's there's opportunities there.

Where there's there are products. Thereare products that are out there that are perfectly serviceable. Nobody isreally complaining about them or not loudly complaining about them. You canlook at it and say you know if we just if we just added this little piece,which is missing, but nobody even realizes that it's going to open up awhole new market, and I think those are the kinds of things where, as you said,yeah you can you can look at somebody else's example. You can make sure youdon't make the same mistakes they made or even like you can. You know ride ontheir on their marketing dollars. I mean there's a lot of my devils outthere of just being able to this company is spending a lot of marketingand they're, making the public the consumer, the user, awarethat this is an opportunity, and now we come in with a slightly better productand we don't spend any money on marketing and people love us becausethey now they're looking for a solution right right. Exactly Yep, let somebodyelse put the bill for creating demand, so you mentioned product market fit andone of the things that I don't think we've ever really done on the show isreally talk about like what is product market fit? How do you get to productmarket fit? And how do you know that you've gotten there, because you knowit's kind of a real popular buzz word and these incubator right in thecommunities that we are in, and I don't know that there's a real, clearunderstanding of what that is and how to get there and how to know thatyou're there yeah and that's you know it's a d, you kind of get on all thekey questions and challenges around it, and- and I actually do think thatsometimes there are probably investors who aresitting across four Montepreux saying you know: you've got to get to productmarket fit and they don't even necessarily know what what that means-and I mean in my mind- you know in my mind it says it's as simple as you've got something or you're buildingsomething that works. That needs they need and that he, the person at whoseneeded meets, will actually pay for it and yeah. That's kind of, I think,that's the you know the simplest term I mean go tolike a you know, a super simple business. You know a kids, you know a kid'slemonade stand right, I mean so like. Do you actually have the product? LikeI mean, if you you know, you have a lemonade, stand and you're selling icetea, your selling water, you know you don't have the product right and thenyou know is there? Is there a market for it? Are People going to be walkingby or people going to see it? Do you have neighbors, you have friends andthen, even if you do like, if you have the lemonade stand and the lemoned costten dollars nobody's going to buy it, but if it costs a dollar, people aregoing to buy it, and I think, when you kind of make it inthose simple terms, I mean clearly it's a lot harder. When again, I think tothe point of what is the product supposed to be. If the customer tdoesn't even know what the like, what they're missing, so you still have tofigure out what the product is yeah, the O. is there a customer again in theworld of the health care hugely complicated, because you have patients and physicians andadministrators, and you know the C fo and you have the payers who arepotentially involved in this. You have the government regulators who are notnecessarily the they're, not as I o the customers but they're part of that youknow the launch saying and then there's the you know: Will they will they payfor it and how much will they pay for it and especially when you're creatingsomething? That's that's brand new. It's a real challenge. You know,especially you know, especially to health care.You know when I've worked with the Cedar, Syni Cela rator here in La youknow the the easy, the the easy advice I always remind all of me.Entrepreneurs is, you know a hospital is going to ifhospital is going to look at something and ultimately buy it. If it's going tosave the money or help them make more... and making more money is by youknow, delivering delivering quality care more efficiently more effectively,so that there's there's more of that right. So there's not that soundsreally simple. Right either make money or save money, but then you know whatdoes that actually mean when you're trying to insert something into anexisting system- and maybe you know maybe at scale if everyone in theorganization is using it, it will save money for the organization. But how doyou even get someone to look at it when the only way for it to get to thatpoint is to be installed across the entire organization? You know to be inuse in every department or to be in use with every physician, and so that'swhere that's, where piloting can be so important and finding finding someearly adopter. You know, fine, you know, does the the Ed you want to look atthis, or does you know your ology want to take this on and you know and testit and if they get results there, that can lead to one understanding thatproduct markets sit sometimes understanding like your example a fewminutes ago. Wait we're in we're in completely the wrong business or youknow we. The problem is what we thought but like what we're trying to do iscompletely. You know, what's completely wrong, let's, let's change dramaticallyand I think, there's a lot of opportunities. If you get into theright accelerator program work with the right advisors, they can help guide,especially in health care, help guide to those solutions, so you're not outthere trying to sell something that ultimately, you know nobody's going tobuy because you know nobody wants to pay for it. There's no customers outthere and in fact the product isn't even the right thing. Yeah Yeah exactlyyou know. I love her lemonade analogy because I think it really breaks itdown an like. I mean simple terms right. You know the whole idea of reality ofhealth care is just so complex, but you know thinking back about the limonadeanalogy. I go back and go okay. Well, if you shut down the lemonade stand,does at least forty per cent of the people in the neighborhood care. Ifnobody tinners that you shut down the limers lemonade stain, you reallylimiting stand, not staying, you really don't have product market fit. Nobodycares whether you go right. That's that's that's, but that's thebest addition to that yeah do people. The people show up in the morningbefore you even set the stand up because yeah they want it like right,right, yeah and going back to your apple story. You know you think aboutproduct market fit and all the people that were standing in line for days forthe next I phone and just you know, O man talk about product market fit andbeing able to confirm that you have. It will say, as that, I'm a huge Apple Fan,but I've never actually stood in line for a ison. So I guess I'm, maybe I'mnot. Maybe I maybe I shouldn't say that I'm not, I guess I'm not as big of anapple fan as I leave people to believe right, yeah me either. I'm actually probablywhat I you know. I think that that defusion of innovation curve we cankind of fit on that continuum based upon different different scenarios thatwe're talking about and when it comes to. I mean I'll, be candid when itcomes to the apple shone. I malagre, because I just got one like a year agoI mean I've, been a droid fan like a staunch troid fan for so long. The onlyreason why I even converted- and I have an and I've had a MAC alaptop for years, but the only reason why I got the I phones, because Iwanted the Darn Apple Watch, and so I had to finally give in that's see the and that's that's that'sthe kind of that's the next level sort of marketing thinking that apple does,because you know the there are and, like you know- and there are you knowin fact you're right and there are people who have who have bought Max,because they've started to use Niphon or something like that, so they have agreat way of doing that. It's a great product strategy right.

So before we wrap up. I want to justkind of give you a little bit of time to talk about bio futures and what'shappening there. You know what should our audience knowabout what's happening with that program that you've lot, that you'relaunching yeah? Now that sounds very, very excited and we just actually just in a major announcement around so withwithin by a science L AER within the La region, especially you know long term. The the biggestdriver of success in the industry, I think, is people and having havingtalent who can not just help develop your products but help build them andmarket them and sell them and fix them. It's the entire kind of you know talent,spectrum of an organization and so and that's even more important again, I'mgoing to use. My third is my third time to use the example of over the pastyear, because you know we've bone from a health care crisis which is led to aneconomic crisis which has been exacerbated or amplified by multiplesocial prices, and especially in Los Angeles that is so visible and sointerconnected, and especially around health care and so last fall. We announced a programcalled bio futures, which is a subsidized internship program wherebywe're we're connecting with students from under represented populations,community college students four year college students bringing him through an applicationprocess helping to connect them with life sciences, health check companiesin the La Region for summer internship and then we're subsidizing. The themajority of of the internship, because there are still a lot of companies thateither you know, don't or won't pay for interns andespecially startups. Where you know every dollar is precious you're like weneed help, but we can have you we can barely afford. You know deaths. How canwe or we can't afford it that port in turn? But so we want to make that wewant to make that easier, and so we we have students supplying right. Now we have,I think, students from almost twenty colleges in the La region who are partof our database now and we just open the data Baseo to companies in you know here we are in mid Aprilthat we just introduce companies. The data base and they're already startedto interduce students, and our goal is to be able to bring hundreds of students through aprogram like this over the coming years. With this idea of every dollar we'respending on this is it's an investment in the student? Certainly, it's also aninvestment in their school, because the school is sort of getting credit forhaving the student yeah. That's kind of the workforce, talent develop in sideof things, but it's also an economic development program because we're alsoinvesting in the companies, and so I was talking to someone yesterday- and Isaid you know if we, you know, if we're spending you know average of you knowfive thousand dollars per pe in turn. If we have, you know if we have ahundred companies that are you know that are doing this over you know overthe summer, that's like bias. Science La has made.You know five hundred thousand dollars of investments into the start upecosystem yeah. I'm so super excited about that. It's you know. This isobviously very la focused, but you know we're you know. Certainly, there are alot of companies who are outside of La with operations here, and so, if they,if they end up hearing this, we're certainly happen. It's happy to talkabout how we can maybe get an intern in there yeah yeah okay, so you heard ithere if you're listening, you're watching and your company is based outof La reach out to Dave and see how you can get in all expenses paid in turn. I'm very excited about this. If justone of many programs were launching around sort of the entirecommercialization spectrum that you mentioned, which is all about, how dowe go from academic innovation to start...

...up to early stage funding to laterstage funding to you know IPO or acquisition, or I guess back at, weshould t we should throw s pack in there now, like everyone, has theirspack dream, but whenever it whatever it takes along theGros spectrum right right? Okay, so I would be so we're at the end of ourtime here, but I feel like I would be remiss if I did not give you anopportunity to share this fun fact about yourself that has to do withsharp tank, hmm yeah. So a few minutes ago wetalked about, I said a lot of the guidance I give entrepreneurs, you knowfrom from failures, and so yes, so so several years ago I was working with anentrepreneur. He was in an advise and I ended up becoming a CO founder and wehad this amazing consumer health tech product, and this is the case where the market wasclearly there. Thero the product was not theres, so we had. We had a market,we have the story. We just did how a working product- yes, because I stilllearned eventually, but we we pitched, I actually pitched Pitch Shark tank inLas Vegas during the consumer. Electronics show and made it throughthat round. They did through a couple more rounds and we actually went to. Wewere in dress rehearsals for shark tank, which meant that, like the followingweekend, we would have potentially taped for shark tank and even if youtake for shark tank, doesn't mean you actually end up on the air, but we weresuper closed. I even have my now ten year old son, who I guess was like fiveat the time he was going to be on there with us, because this was a you know.It was. It was a a wearable thermometer and so my side, I I was putting thethermometer on my son and yeah yeah, so we made it super super close, but didnot, and so this is kind of like the fish. You know talking about the thefishing trip where the fish that got away or whatever right right, the fishwas just big and I'll. Tell you be exciting, it's so exciting, you're soclose, but thankfully I've worked. I've workedwith some companies in the ensuing years. You actually have you know, havemade it on a shark tank and there's some very cool. You know health healthcare related companies in La that have, you know, been a shark tank, Latininvestment, some to pain in those episodes. Yeah that's great yeah. Itcould be like you said it could be the ones that they did it and it just maybedidn't er yeah, I'm not watching every episode either, but they do some goodstuff there they do you do. You do learn a lot about like there's a long,a long document that I probably shouldn't talk about. The basicallysays you know if, if you, if we take you, you might have might not make iton the show like you could get in an investment and not end up on the show.You could obviously not get an investment and end up on the show,because ultimately, it's television they're looking for a good guys and badguys and winners and losers and know everything. So it's a fastnat process. Man, that's awesome! So I'd love tohave you back on the show, I think there's so much. We can talk about andmaybe we'll be able to dig into more some of those learnings in that shark.Take journey so Dave, how can our audience get a hold of you if anybodywants to follow up with you after they tune into the show sure so definitely check out bio science, LADOT or G, which is the my organizations website and then on social? I am D: J,Wale en D J, W H E l, a n on pretty much everything, except for snap chatwhere I didn't get that and it's okay, because I've never used snapshot. So Ido not do not contact one snap chat, because I will not find you. I thank you so much. It's been a greatconversation today, thanks for your two. Thank you. Thank you. So much a lot offun and looking forward to coming back. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. I knowyou're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market, and Ivalue your time and attention to get the latest episodes on your mobiledevice automatically subscribe to the... on your favorite podcast APP likeapple podcast, potii and stitcher. Thank you for listening, and Iappreciate every one who shared the show with friends and colleagues, seeyou on the next episode of Health Innovator.

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