Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 100 · 7 months ago

Creating Value for Everyone in the Value Chain w/ Dave Dolan

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

If creating value is foundational to a successful business, creating value for everyone in the value chain is the Holy Grail.

Dave Dolan, Executive Chairman and Co-founder of MultiFunctional Imaging, knows what it means to create value - he’s one of those rare entrepreneurs who achieved the “Holy Grail.”

In this episode, Dave discusses business models and roadmaps that can help entrepreneurs “cross the chasm” to success.

If you’re looking to build and cultivate KOL (key opinion leader) relationships, blaze your path across the chasm, or simply want to be better at co-creating with your customers, you’re going to want to listen.

Come hear Dave’s story!

Here are the show highlights:

This is why it’s important to “play well in the sandbox” (4:19)

Is your business model missing key components to your story? (9:27)

How to find your way across the chasm (11:09)

Nurturing and cultivating KOL relationships (17:26)

Strong KOL partnerships are the engines that drive you (23:21)

How to win at co-creation (30:19) 

Guest Bio

Dave Dolan is the Executive Chairman and Co-founder of MultiFunctional Imaging.

His career has been built on successes centering around the commercialization and customer adoption of innovative MedTech products/services. 

From Fortune 500 corporations through startups, he has built medical device innovations into record growth, elevated market shares, and attractive market valuations. 

A trusted business leader, Dave employs an analytical and data-driven approach to identify and capitalize on opportunities that will advance an organization’s strategic vision.

To learn more about what Dave does, go to his website at multifunctionalimaging.com. If you’d like to reach Dave directly, you can find him on LinkedIn at Dave Dolan, or you can email him at dave.dolan@mfimage.com. 

You're listening to health innovators, a podcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adopters who are shaping the future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back health innovators. On today's episode I'm sitting down with Dave Dolan, who is the executive chairman and Co founder of multi functional imaging. Welcome to the show, Dave Roxy. Thank you very much the invitation. It's joy to be here. I'm glad to have you here. So tell us a little bit about your background and what you've been innovating these days. Great. Well. Thanks. I am a Mettech bettern. Been in the industry for just over twenty years. I cut my teeth at GE healthcare in the diagnostic imaging spacebolf capital equipment as well as services. As my career is progressed, I moved on to more agile and innovative companies. Is My career as progressed. After my Stina Gye, how was the GM platform leader for Beca Dickinson sitution therapy units. Then went on to buiosons webster, which is the electric physiology unit of Johnston Johnson, and work for a cutest medical for a spin and then cofounded multi functional imaging back in two thousand and thirteen with my partner, Dan catapist. So what we are, as were, in early stage commercial company and what we do is we specializes in making pet and pet CT scanners run more official plan. So, for instance, in the world of cardiac pet which is the gold standard for cardiac imaging, depend on the radio tracer that a medicine technician or a cardiologist with utilize the see and takes about eighty to ninety minutes. What our software does is able to condense that time and actually be able to conduct the rest and stressful Marto biocardial profusion imaging scan in about fifteen to twenty minutes. And so what you get is you get the economies of scale, you get much more of an efficient process and, most importantly, the patient benefits from a much surer duration of the scan. That who, quite frankly, be pretty intimidating when you look at from a patient standpoint. Sure. Yeah. So, so let's just talk about that moment when you decided that you were going to leave corporate healthcare and and go out on your own. What were some of those things that you thought and kind of Wade the pros and cons and making that decision. Yeah, it was. It was definitely a kind of a left turn. It actually came across the technology when I was doing my my my Mbat the University of UTAH. The Dean of the business school had asked me to take a look at some of the invention disclosures at the University of Utah had, which are probably aware of. The University Utah Medical Center is cover renowned cardiology facility in and I was asking to take a look into in system the mentioned disclosures at positions and professors have submitted. Oh yeah, I regretted...

...that offer almost immediately because about three days after I agreed to do that I had two legal boxes full of paper files of invention disclosures and I'll be honest, it was about about there's about a thousand that were submitted and about nine hundred and ninety of them were really elaborate solutions of problems that haven't been invented yet, the typical level with a lot of innovations today. Right exactly, you know, the typical you know text than out you know kind of stuff. But I came across one that was really interesting. It was a neglar physicist, had an algorithm to be able to condense the time it takes to do cardiac pat again, going from ninety minutes down to fifteen to twenty minutes. What was kind of interesting is that he saw all the value of at least initially, was at it was going to be able to provide a better image. You know, which it does. But I introduced myself to them and I educated them love. Hey, you know, to say that one image is better than another image usually involves a pretty lengthy chlinical trial that would be difficult to try to finance. But being able to say that you take a ninety minute scam, it condensed down to twenty minutes, that's something you don't need to do a clinical trial for. In the value is intrinsic. And so that night we decide to form an LLC and started building the company up. That's incredible. So you've certainly have been had your way around right with Med device corporations. Just kind of described for our audience you know, what was some of that experience, some of the things that were most exciting to you and most challenging to you when you were innovating or working for those innovative companies around Med device. Yeah, well, what drew me, drew my attention to this technology was actually my time at gg healthcare. I was there for about twelve years and as a product marketing manager over the services unit, myself and my teenager ask that kind of tackle kind of a serious problem that gg healthcare at the time and that was they were losing service contracts for their Om equipment or their gg equipment, and so often time what was going on is that they would have you know, if you're aware, there's a city system is sold for about two million dollars but then also has a service contract to make sure that it's maintained and make sure the up time is up, and those contracts could run about a hundred fifty two hundred thousand dollars. What we ran into in a lot of cases it was either former g employees or often times form of Phillips seasons employers were forming their own service companies and then going in and performing the services to reduced price to general electrics and so Markettinghe was asked of hey, how can we address this, because you know, we're losing our market share with this and we're getting business and starting we...

...were certain to see price compression with our services, and so we were dealt with that problem and we bring stormed and we came up with kind of a clever idea. This is happening during the late s early S, kind of in the middle of GE six sigma renaissance, as you can you know, like to call it, and where you statistical tools to be able to make things more efficient. It's typically a manufacturing discipline. I had known from my experience that customers did not like being told about six sigma. Were being educated on six sigma, but I we could see that this would actually be beneficial for this process and during this time all employees, including myself, had to complete at least form project, a lot assignment to be able to be green belt certified. They called it the sign and what we decide to do is kind of lean into that. We had a lot of service engineers or managers like myself that had to do a project within here, and so we came up with the performance solutions package for MRI and CT systems where, for a premium price, we would assign you a green belt specialist to go in and figure out how to make your scanning more efficients hmm. And so utilizing those tools. But the beauty of is we never mentioned six sigma. We just said now this is a this a premium service package. Yeah, and sure enough it took off. We offered an uptime guarantee as well as a performance guarantee where we fail to make it more efficient, that there would be money out of pocket for us. But we signed about a hundred fifty of those contracts and we never had to issue any guarantee checks whatsoever. So that was always kind of in the back of my mind of customers value having the their capital equipment being more efficient. You know, as you're aware, you got a pretty large capital asset, whether it's Mli or CT, and you've got a capitated reimbursement. So you're limited in terms of how you know how profitable it could be. For Healthcare Facility. Really the only way you can you can make it more profitable is get by getting more patients a thing, improving the other throughput, and so that was always kind of in the back of my head, and so when Dan catteramists of and I were able to go through this technology, that kind of spring back to my mind. Ah, here we go now we got a facility as trying to do seven to eight patients. That wow, we can probably do like twenty five patients a day, and so that's really was kind of the kind of work stem from. It. All matters, doesn't it all just bills on each other. Yeah, and what's Nice about what we do have multifunctional imaging and is that we like to say that we played well in the sandbox. What we mean by that is every partner within the value chain of the scan benefits from our existence. So Ge Siemens Phillips, they benefit from the fact that their capitalescent's now more attainable because the return on investment is are because they can get more patients in. The radio tracer companies or the the drug distributors, they benefit from our existence because it's opportunity for them as sell or radio traces or cell worked...

...dose. The healthcare facilities benefit, and that is simply they benefit the economies of scale. You know, they're able to attain more revenue while still maintaining the you know, the operating expenses. And then, lastly, the patient benefits the most because, you know, I'm sure I drew a lot of your listeners have either been in a CT or a pet CT system before it's pretty intimidated. And when you're talking about doing arrested stress, it's two separate scans that the patient has. Has To do with our software, the really only doing at once and again it's a much more pleasant experience. And so it's nice about us is we don't displace any of those value members. They all benefit from the existence of our software. So one of the things I think is so interesting of what you just described is, you know, in healthcare we're all almost always dealing with multisided markets, even if we're not even thinking about throughout the entire value chain, and and you were able to so easily articulate the value proposition for each one of those players within that value chain. And I think that that's something that very often corporate innovators or, you know, start up entrepreneurs, early stage entrepreneurs, end up really missing out on is really, you know, kind of sitting down and mapping out that business model and looking at the value prop for each stakeholder group that's involved in that value chain, as opposed to who the user is or who the buyer is, and in missing components of the value and commissing key components of that story. Yeah, it's pretty unique. I I've got, like I said, twenty pous years in the metech industry and I've always, from a commercial standpoint, always came into all right, as an incumbent. I'm trying to upgrade a new product or service to something that they're currently using, a bind which presents a challenge, or the tougher one. There they're comfortable with the competitor that they're currently using and you have to prove that you're that much better than that. So you're displacing something. You know. Again, sometimes we have to have a sit down and explain this, because a lot of time customers don't get it. They feel that they're going to lose something and we're able to say no, actually, everything becomes more conduct everything becomes more efficient, you know, and, like I said, that the equipment manufacturers benefit, drug manufactors benefit, facility benefits and again, most importantly, the patient benefits. So much more pleasant experience. Sure. Yeah. So, so you talk about commercialization, adoption, launch. You know, a lot of times people in the industry might use these words interchangeably and I like to just kind of pick people's brains to kind of say from your point of view, what's the difference between commercialization and launch or going to market in your experience? Yeah, well, I'm the big fan of the book crossing the Chasm, and they went to crossing chasm talks about is the various different stages of customers. When you enter into a product or service, you know you have was typically referred to as the early adopters, which are pretty much people that are...

...in it for the technology alone. You know they're interested in how it's made and they're also willing to kind of investl a lot of time to help you curate develop your product. It's a really important group to to embrace early on, but really the goal is to get to that second stage, like they referred to as the early majority, and these are people that represent kind of a large marketplace but might but probably think a little bit more progressively, and the idea is to embrace your earlier doctors, but try to get to that second phase of that early majority as fast as possible, because those are typically the facilities that will act, as we like to refer to it as pinball customers, where say a large key opinion leader facility decides to utilize this other key opinion leaders will fall in line and they see that it works for that person and so move into that early majority as soon as possible. Really benefits from being able to effectively commercialize and do it cost efficiently because he had these key opinion leaders, you know, tacitly endorsing what the technology could do. Beautiful and just so it's more more difficult than the sounds. I didn't prompt you to say that, but this is one of my soapboxes, this early adoption strategy and having a different strategy for those two slices, first two slices of the market, versus the mainstream market. And in what I found is that most innovators don't really understand that distinction. They're building one go to market strategy instead of a different one for those different spices of the market. And so then just really in the early stage of the company, wasting a whole lot of time trying to convince that mainstream market to buy their innovation. And there's this misalignment of messaging and the offer. And so what you just just described is such a golden nugget for our audience and viewers to kind of grab a hold of. And you know how is that been a game changer for you in your own business? Well, it's really a help for us. I mean, you know, first of all, beat those early adoptors that you know take you on your technology for technology set. They're in currently valuable because those people are also typically the ones to give you the most feedback, which is absolutely golden when you're starting. But I think we're sometimes, if you're a small entrepreneurial company, sometimes you can fall a little bit too much of love with the with that type of customer, and we need to be able to do and kind of have the discipline of the second you know you had that product dialed in. Okay, it's like you know, you know it is ready to go, and now you gotta transition that discipline to we need to go to that larger early majority customer now, even though it's scary, even though it's might be a little bit tough to get their attention at first. It's imperative that you make that transition very quickly. So how are you finding those early adopters in the in the first two slices of that?...

How are you finding those? What are you looking for? That's different than some of the mainstream market players that are going to be so much more resistant to what you have to offer early on. Yeah, and in our case, in this might not be everybody's case, my partner and cofounder, Gan Catamus is. He's a known quantity within the nugative medicine space and we're able to use a lot of his relationships that we that he had to the type of people that could really help us craft and be able to tell us, yes, okay, this is this is functioning the way it should. And then what I kind of brought to the table a little bit is myself, with kind of broad our commercial experience at GE and Beck and Dickinson and biosense Welbster, I was able, once we were ready to go to that larger scale, be able to take my contacts and say, all right, you know, I was I was one or two grews removed from a lot of us contacts, but was able to translate over. So, for instance, when we have our small consortium saying yes, all I ever ready to go Dan, and I immediately said, all right, let's transition this, let's go to the mail clinic and let's try to get the adoption over there, because that's representable early majority customer. Right, Yep, that makes sense. And then I love what you're touching on to, and I think it's so important, is how those early buyers really are the ones that help you sell into cross the chasm and sell into the mainstream market. So just kind of talk about a couple of stories, maybe on some folks that. What was that like for you, being able to help facilitate that endorsement or that that word of mouth to help you cross the PAP chasm? Yeah, we we were pretty fortunate in that. As you know, trying to get to those early majority customers and you have a lot of value analysis committees that you have to go through and again, you're in a lot of those cases you're trying to displace in a comment. Okay, you're trying to say that we're five or some better than what you know you're currently using right now. We're able to be able to drive home, especially with people outside of our internal champions, was, hey, this is a coss agents for you, this is an efficiency tool for you. You know you're are and be able to go from scanning seven times a day to thirty times a day without any incremental operating expenses, to be able to do that. So we are pretty fortunate in that we had a really good economic story of why adopting this just as soon as possible was going to be a benefit of we were talking about making improvements in the single digit range. We were talking about, Hey, you can double your scanning through put just simply by adopting the software, and so that's what really helped us out as what makes us a little bit unique. Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy? I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you...

...find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities learn more at legacy DNACOM backslash kit. So how have you maybe nurture, nurtured or cultivated those Kol Relationships? Yeah, well, we've had a great relationship with with the Mayo Clinic and they have written a paper speaking to our technology, which has been especially helpful for us with that. And you know, again, they walk through sort of like their base case of how they are your utiliz scanner utilization before our arrival and then after I think it was about six months of utilizing or software up their throughpoot was about point, and so having that paper that they they penned was extremely helpful for us and we're able to showcase that to not only in users but also other companies that would have an interest in terms of the distributing our software for US or partnering with us. So I know our audience wants to know how did you get them to do that? Right, because in healthcare, I mean it's just this weird thing where, you know, you can't put my logo on anything. You know. Yes, you're been a great customer. I mean yeah, great customer. Like we have a great relationship, but no, you can't include me in your slide deck, you can't put me on your website kind of thing. Right. It's just kind of a known thing in healthcare that maybe other industries don't encounter. So was that something that you guys initiated? Was it something that Mayo initiated? What kind of spurred that? Well, this is something that we initiated. I tell you what, there's not a lot of magic to it. It's really about persistence, especially when you go to larger facilities. A lot of it is simply just the repetition and never accepting no as an answer or, as like to say, is knows, the second best answer you can get, as long as you follow up with well, what else would we have to do? You know, if this isn't enough, what would be enough? And and what you got to do is, the fifteen time you run into that, don't roll your eyes, don't side to say that's interesting, saying okay, how could we address this so you'll be able to adopt us? So agree, person perseverance is really the secret. Yep, Yep, just be stubborn. Don't give us exactly. So I wanted to I made note here when you were talking earlier telling about the story. You said that you were an early stage, you know, Start Up Med device company, but that you you started the company in...

...two thousand and twelve and we're in. Yeah, anyone right? Yeah, yeah, what we did is is, for instance, I did this as sort of like a side while my partner worked on this full time. And so we originally started, we started doing the fundraising path and fundraising trail, but we discovered pretty quickly was we had some interesting offers from venture capitalism's also some private equity or some strategic investments that work are brought to our attention. We decide to take a little bit different a route in that we sought federal and state grants that were nondelutible to be able to build our company out. Now, the positive to that was, well, we have control the organization. You know, we don't have a third part for entity that's driving our strategy. You know that. Those with that Kennedy. Yeah, the downside is that it makes much more a deliberate rollout. And so after after myself and my partners looked at it, we decided that Ip was long enough, that let's do this deliberately, and so we so we built it out slowly. We got our K in two thousand and eighteen. So, you know, five years after kind of the foundry, were able to get our K. and I tell you what it's. It's it wasn't easy. It was a long walk through the desert for all of us. How many times did you want to quit? Oh Yeah, and you know, there is it's also there's something to be said, you know, being in a startup sometimes can be very romantic. But until you recognize that, okay, wow, payrolls Friday, we might not have the funds for payroll, that's real stress. That's when that's when you recognize, okay, this is what being an entrepreneur is really like. But yeah, we've been commercial since, since two thousand and eighteen, and and again we're methodically building out our face because we know that if you make things more efficient, the economic story becomes that much more that much more impactful, and so, you know, we're going about showcasing the fact with our customers of how much more efficient could be. So how are you getting in front of how are you building awareness and building that demand in front of your targeting customers, especially in this kind of it's not covid, it's not post Covid, it's just this quasi covid climate that we're in. Yeah, good question. You know one my partner, Dan catabist is again very known quantity and even the medicine, and so a lot of his relationships are able to help us do that. We recently hire a product manager who's very commercially focus, who's driving adoption with that. Would also we've benefited from is there's other companies within the space that participate in that value chain that I spoke of earlier that set up introductions for us to be will come in and talk about what we're doing because it benefits them. It's nice where...

...we're not contractually obligator for INSUS, they're not acting as a distributor, but again they're setting up warm invitations for us and say, Hey, are you aware with these people multifuction, limitary imaging you're doing? This might be a benefit to your facility, which is fantastic, and they would hand that over to us and then boom, we're talking to talking to an in user that it what exactly we're doing. So we've really kind of benefited from that word of mouth of companies within that body dream. So a lot of the research that I've done indicates exactly what you just said, that building that strong partnership network is key to crossing the chasm. Like if you don't have that network, you will really just kind of fall in and flat flounder. So that makes a lot of sense in this just this word of mouth, this Kol this partnership, you know, kind of having that engine behind you again, so you don't even have to be the one that's creating all of that awareness and demain and right you've kind of got that exponential effect with other people doing it on your behalf, even if you were, you know, you know, had millions of dollars to put into your sales and marketing efforts. Yeah, and you know, and I've had a career where if I'm trying to tell a customer of why my good service is better than, say, another, I would have to get a pen and a piece of paper out or have to get ipad out and say, well, this is why, with multi functional imaging, and it's like, okay, you're doing a patients today, right now, with us, we can get you to sixteen or twenty. And so I think those those adjacent companies. They can kind of be a good advocate for us because our bay proposition is so simple. Yeah, yeah, so I noticed, you know, when we were talking earlier, you mentioned something about Jack Welch. Obviously you know the leadership program. I was A, I'm a professor at the Jack Welch Management Institute and I have to say that the way he runs that school, are at the leads that school is like he would do at Ge. It's unlike any other university that I've ever attended or ever worked for, where the students are customers, just like you would in any other business. Oh, I have the opportunity to go to Crotonville is, as you know, it's kind of called internally. Yeah, it was beneficial in two different ways. You know, you kind of get assigned a typically room with another person from GE at that and so I remember eye rooms with a Soviet or a Russian national who worked in the aircraft engine, you know. So one it was like great having that experience of wow, you know you're from Russia. Tell me about that exactly. It's like, walk me through how actually a jet engine works. So you benefit from those relationships and then, like you said, I would say the class that I was in, probably about throw of the class was actually customers,...

...and so that's another dynamic and it's good. It's it was, you know, in my case it was a week long program your kind of holed out of the field. You're told to put yourself gone down and and let your team know that you're not going to be responsive that week. And now it's fantastic. You know, I cherished my time it. Ge. The entire playbook doesn't transition outside of g you know, there's some of it that you kind of got to leave and some, but some of it you vary directly over. You know, for instance, how how the fact that you value feedback to your employees as well to your customers, you know, being disciplined to share feedback the planning process, both strategic and operating, is something I still lean on today, even though I left you e quite a while ago. But yeah, there's some of it that doesn't carry over that, but that's that's that's why you see a lot of people from GE excel in other areas out because they pick up those nice and nutt get to pearls that translate anywhere. Yeah, that's great. So you did touch on a business plan, and you know just I think every you know founder has a business plan of some sort. If we all stacked our business plans side by side, they probably would look very, very differently in a number of ways. So what are some of the key components? I mean you don't have to go through like the basics of business plan, but what are some of the key components that you have found that has been like the components of the strategies that have been really key to success that you've accomplished so far? That we's funny you should ask that question because my partner and I we had a little bit of fun about six months ago. We pulled out our original business plan from two Po wow and it's exactly what you're doing today right. Looks the same, maintained, but you know, I tell you what it's been. It's twofold. What I've carried over from GE is the two stuff process. They referred to as the session one session to the timing of this's not necessarily important, but gee, in the springtime we do it's called their session one and this is the five year business plan. And really what it's about is, I always joked about it, was defending your life meaning that telling about the market, tell me about the competitive threats, tell me why this is even going to be in industry five years from now. So it was less about what we were actually doing. It was like, tell me about the market. Yeah, and really they were evaluating is this a good space to be in? All right, and there was a lot of decisions that was made at that meeting by, Hey, you know where the external drivers you know? How do we know that? You know, patients are going to continue to need this type of therapy. So that was beneficial. And then and then either or not, like Kodak or blockbuster. Right. Yeah, in the fall was was referred to a session to and that at last, this is how the next year is going to roll out. This is,...

...you know, our direct competitive threats, this is what our Broden is going to be, this is what our expenses are going to be, and it's much more of an operating plan type of scenario. So we have adopted that where we do that twice a here, kind of in a springtime, more strategic, you know, fall or operating focus. But when you're a small company, you got to be a lot less rigid and you got to be a lot more open minded to. Okay, that was a good idea three months ago, but you know, we're going to divert our path now and be able to do something like this. And so, when you're in a large company like a GE, like a Siemens, it is kind of like a battleshow okay, and that you're you go out, of course, and this is what the entire plant set up for. This is what shareholders are expecting, and we're going to do it this way. When your entrepreneurial, it's like you have to be able to adapt to what the market is being able to serve up to. I encourage all of our clients to create these ninety day plans, because I say that, you know, once you go beyond that, like, there's so much that changes as especially in this climate that we're, you know, operating under right now. I mean, so much changes, and so I think that's, you know, the beauty of being a startup or being a CO founder, right you get a chance to pivot and adapt and iterate in a much faster way than you can when you're this big behemoth organization like a GE or bed. Yeah, and I think also what's really beneficial when you're in a smaller, more agile environment is that you can invite your customer and to help you with that strategic mindset. You know, I you know, I worked in a for a small private equity firm a couple of years ago and worked in the electronic healthcare record space, and we're able to sign on a really large charpoy. Wanted two big players and we're able to come in. After we got them on board and we're helping them out. I asked for a meeting with their executive team and I asked them of hey, how are we doing? Went through some dashboards or we performing well? They said, wow, you guys great, but really happy. We adopt you guys a service. And then I said, well, okay, that's great. Can I ask you a favor? And they're like sure, where we beat? Did and I and I said what else could we be doing for you? You know, I think that there's other services or other batch of things that we might be able to do for you. What might some of those be? And I'll never forget, you know, the chief compliance officer stood up with a marker, went to the White Board and said we've got all these different things. That be a seven different vendors taken care of force and I'm sitting there fiously writing all this down and after about forty five minutes he stops, he puts the cap on his pin and he goes, you know what, you owe me dinner tonight. Why do I are you dinner tonight? He's like, I just give you your strategy exactly. Yes, you did. It's a little grateful for that meeting.

It's I mean that's such a great story, a real story. You know, personal example of, you know, this idea of Co creation that I'm always preaching for, an advocating for and and I'm hope that more organizations do it, whether you're big or whether you're small, being able to invite customers into the conversation, into our rd teams, are marketing teams, are sales teams, in not being embarrassed by asking those questions right. It takes you had to get kind of with ego at the door and be humble to say hey, well, what do you want next, instead of acting like you know what they want next. And I think that the companies that adopt co creation are going to be the ones that win, because they're going to stay closest to the customer and they're going to be able to deliver what the customer wants in a way that's going to be very different than those organizations that are, you know, making a lot of assumptions and building their strategies and product solutions based upon that. Yeah, yeah, it was very fortunate. I think that one he saw that we were a small company that was hustling and that we were really working hard to to exceed their expectations and we have some credibility to that. And and again, I think this individual came up with like twelve fantastic ideas and I came back to my week later said no, I think we could do three of these, and they ended up being really good and trust me, I want to do all of them. But again, you might not be a limited beings. We had to take the higher runners. Sure, yeah, it was, it was, it was great. And Yeah, he enjoyed her a stake dinner that night. Well, and I think that discernment that you just described as also extremely critical, because you know, you're also looking through that Lens. Okay, the cut, the customer provided these twelve ideas, but that doesn't mean that all twelve of them are viable or feasible, you know, being able to commercialize them across the entire ecosystem. You know, more customers. It could be just this one particular customer, and I think that goes back to what you were talking about earlier on. When you've got those that smallstliver, that first liver, that's really like into technology for technology sake and you don't want to get caught up in the trap of building customizing something for them and they kind of take over that product development and then that's something that's really great for these three customers. Exactly right, exactly you get. You got to be thinking of what's the early majority customer really wants. That's that's where you gotta that's your North Star that you gotta follow. Right. Yeah, so, Dave, this has been a fantastic conversation. Is there anything else that you want to share with our listeners before we wrap up today? No, it's want to thank you very much for allowing myself to talk about multifunctional imaging. You can find multifuncial energy at multifuncial IMAGINGCOM. You can also look me up on lookedin...

...if you want to reach out to to myself and my email addresses Dave Dot Dolan at MFI and a gecom. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today. Dr Rox, use a player. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who shared the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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