Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 124 · 2 months ago

Women+ digital health: Bridging the gap in female representation w/ Danika Kelly

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Question: What do you do when you have a solution that helps unlock the largest possible target market in the country?

If you answered, dig my heels in and keep going, you’d be right. But when that target market has been historically undervalued and overlooked, you might have your work cut out for you.

Hard work didn’t scare Danika Kelly. She saw value in women’s health where others saw nothing but complications.

And then she rolled up her sleeves and got down to business.

If you’ve been curious about fem tech, or just looking to push social innovation, drive business development, or simply be successful while doing some good in the world, we have you covered in this week’s episode!

Here are the show highlights:

  • Inclusion criteria and its effect on health tech (2:47)
  • Fem tech as a stepping stone in female health (4:07)
  • Social innovation and driving business development (7:13)
  • Being successful and doing “good” (8:26)
  • Target markets are fundamental to success (11:20)
  • The dichotomy and ethics of women’s issues (15:22)

Guest Bio

Danika Kelly is CEO and co-founder of My Normative. She is also a health and wellness professional and trained socio-cultural scholar in issues surrounding female health and representation.

For the past 14 years she’s worked globally focusing on health advancement and knowledge translation in developing economies.

Her strong history of leadership excellence in the social innovation space has earned her awards and recognition from Telus and The Future of Good, FemTech Analytics, Alberta Women Entrepreneurs and more.

If you want more information about Danika Kelly and her work, visit the MyNormative.ca website or, you can find her on LinkedIn @Danika Kelly

Like you're listening to health innovators, a podcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adopters who are shaping the future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back to the show health innovators. On today's episode I'm sitting down with Danica Calli, who is the CEO and Co founder of my normative. Welcome to the show, Danna, Danica, thank you for having me. It's so good to have you here. So if you could, let's just kick off by you sharing Um, a little bit about your background and what you've been innovating these days. Yeah, sure. So my background is in female health and in women's health and kind of the intersections of those sex and gender spaces and how there are different physiological health concerns for different cohorts and also different social health determinants and concerns for those different cohorts. Um, and so basically, throughout graduate school, and I'm sure you've got this is also, I think, the basis of this podcast, you notice these big, big gaps in data and in service Um and you're like someone should do something about that. Uh So, my former teammate and I actually, as we went through the Grad school process and we're like wow, someone really needs to actually properly account for female hormonal variability through time and it's impacts on Longitudinal health. We looked around. I couldn't find anyone who is attempting to do it seriously at a population wide scale and we're like, well, I guess that's off. Then we just started that we would be the ones to do something about it. So that's so awesome. Why is this even an issue? Yeah, I mean we can go we can go back a couple of centuries, but really, when we look at Um we can we get there some short form we can we can use here. So there's sexism and the Patriarchy or the short term short form ones. When we look at medical history and health histories actually within the Western health sciences, we see kind of either a exotification or reductionist approach to female bodies either being miniatures or corrupted or broken versions of male bodies. I think it was the aristotle who had some pretty terrible views on the female body, and those things are kind of informed through time. And so because the female by the body has either fitness exotic, highly complex thing that just cannot be accounted for or just small male bodies. We up until very recently, and I think in the US it was, we were allowed to just pretend that females were males and women were men UM in a medical context, and only very, very recently did we go hey, that's a really big problem. And so the we've started on the treatment side to acknowledge that women are women and not men and females are females and not males. But we have a backlog of hundreds of years of assumption that we have to address still. So who is aware of this...

...problem besides you and your co founder and looking to solve this in a meaningful way? That's a really good question. So I would actually say that very recently, with some key kind of popular science publications Um and with kind of research and policy and mandate changes, that even the general population to some extent is becoming more aware that they aren't being represented properly in in their pursuit of health and wellness and there's been an appetite for change in that arena. And then I would also say, and it might be different in the in the American context, but within Canada there are now equity diversion and inclusion criteria around sex and gender and representativeness. That basically demand that research moving forward is inclusive and representative of sex and gender variables. And with that we're starting to see this pressure into the market on Medtech, biotech, Pharmattech, health tech. That's that's kind of adjusting and adapting for that live reality, so that that that's starting from kind of a mandated place, at least in the Canadian context, and I know uh in the US are similar. My dates in place as well, and it's having this ruple effect across different industries. And it sounds like that's, you know, so important because we have this new vertical, or newer vertical within the healthcare Um Tech Industry called film tech, and it sounds like, you know that that is a step in the right direction, but film tech in its own silo of film tech is not going to really solve the problems that you're addressing. Yeah, I would say so. I think one of the Nice things about kind of like we talk, kind of like the entering of this issue around sex cern the representative in the in the public psyche, is that as a as a public, we need a way to address it, and so film tech is x because it goes. Here's the name for this problem that we can now discuss. The limitation of FEM check as you move forward is that it continues to other the female body, right, so it makes everything that's not fem check the normal, but that means that the normal is still not inclusive of female bodies, which is a huge problem. And so I think the entire vertical of FEM check is simply maybe a stepping stone into recognizing that female health has to be incorporated across everything. Yeah, Um, you know, I get a chance to learn from so many different people as they become guests on the show and Um, and so I've been just had a heightened awareness over the last couple of years of just how underrepresented women are in clinical trials and observational trials and some of the research data. And you know, kind of like you're indicating is that a lot of these decisions are being made on data that's skewed, that's not...

...representative of how it's going to actually perform on a real population that's a lot more diverse than what's happening earlier on in that commercialization phase. And we see that the number one reason why a pharmaceutical intervention is pulled off the market is, once it's in market, it fails on female bodies. The number one reason why a product is pulled off the market in that particulars isn't that mind blowing? That says so that again. Say That again. Right. So the number one reason, according to recent article that I read, that's like a scientifically pure, validated study, the number one reason why a pharmaceutical intervention is pulled off the market is, once it is in market, it fails on the female population. Wow, then that's a big deal, right. That says so much about the problems and the scientific process and within the regulatory process that allows us to sure we include women and female bodies and clinical trials, but do we make sure they representative? Do we allow them to be on birth control? Do we allow them to get pregnant to be account for the differences in health experiences across the observational clinical trial, or do we just look for outliers and then assumes similarities across sex and gender in terms of experiences with that intervention? It's it's it speaks to this entrenched bias within the research process that's allowing us to create health interventions that don't actually address fifty one of the population. So I've heard you refer to your business or your Um, the work that you're doing as social innovation. So just kind of give us a little bit of context of what do you mean by social innovation and how does that tie to what we're talking about? Yeah, so I actually fought the moniker of like social enterprise or social innegration for a long time because I felt like it. I think as a female founder, you're already fighting an uphill battle in terms of people taking your business and the opportunity you seriously at but the thing that I've kind of learned is that I don't want investors or stakeholders or her partners who don't want to have a positive impact on the world with the work that they're doing. And so I think one of those one of those really nice cash ALDs for for sayings is like you can do well by doing good. So like the business can do well, it can be financially progressive and productive, it can have an impact and it can be a socially beneficial um impact that is driving the progress of the company forward, not just like I'm nice to have or an add on but that social mandate of the company is what's actually driving business development. Yeah, which you know. I think. To your point is it's somewhat of an oxymoron that anybody would have a business in healthcare that isn't a social innovation, because it all be. I mean everything that we are doing should be um for the cause of impacting society in the communities that we live in in some form or fashion.

It's healthcare, right. But there's an interesting and I think that and I think that's a really interesting observation because, yeah, when people pitch Um robots that do heart surgery, they don't. You're not like, oh, it's a social innovation, but it is. But as a as a female founder or a woman identifying founder, there is a big pressure to be like, Oh, you're helping women, said as a social innovation, and and and yes, it is. And I'm aware of that batch proudly now, but I thought it for a long time because my my male colleagues or my colleagues you don't focus on women's centered issues don't get given that label. Right. Well, and I think that you're right. There's probably some negative stigma around that of being kind of more towards a nonprofit, a softer business model. Um, you know, not something that can do both right, that can be very commercially successful as well as doing good. Absolutely, yeah. Um. So how has this mission changed your commercialization process so far? That is a really good question and so maybe I'll start. So, when we started the company there was a big push for like, Um, my confunder renee and I were like, this is a research problem, that it's core, we need to help researchers do this thing. And we had a bunch of advisors who are powerhouses in the business community, who said research is a terrible market, it's a bad market, don't go into research. And then we spent about a year trying to find other beach heads and other markets to go into, and then a couple months ago we're like no, the beachhead is research, and what it allows us to do is by focusing on kind of that social part, that qualitative part of like this is a trusted, reliable, scientifically underpinned product that happens to also be commercial grade, we were able to expand into many more markets by having that first focus on the social, qualitative, brandon reputation aspect that we are able to target because of that research invation, by going after a small market first, just billions of dollars, small market first, and expanding, notewords. But it was there was a big journey around identifying where we're going. We're talking to where we're up to. Um, that was surprisingly challenging because of a distaste for science. Again, we're in healthcare. Yea, uh well, I will say that. To me, there's a couple of things that's been really impressive about you and about my normative and you know, when we've done some discovery prior to this conversation or even some of the conversations that we had at the interface women's summit here recently. Um, you know last few weeks. I there's so much focus on your commercial model, unlike a lot of other entrepreneurs that I see.

When I talk about like who's your target customer, it's like, well, we can go after this one, this one, this one, this one and this one, and they kind of have a list of the ten or twelve that they could sell to. Or when you're asking kind of what is your value proposition, it's it's really not succinct and clear because they are kind of still envisioning going to market in twelve different pathways that that value proposition gets so convoluted. What, whereas you, and I, you know, in these conversations and in these engagements, you're really clear on who your beach head market is, in the value proposition that you're delivering to that market, and that's fantastic. That are that's fundamental. It is fundamental and getting and I think the big one that for me as a founder, check time, especially as a as a first time founder, in the environment of like trying to build a massively scalable company. Um, it took time for me to get calm of fit int in my initial it took me a year to go no, my beachhead is the research world and then I'm going to move on from there, because everyone's like, oh, identified Medtech, identified digital helmet inifaction, and that's where you end up with those twelve potential market slaces and you're like, any of these could have saliency, but but it and all of those come from one route market and that route market is research. Yeah, Yep. So, speaking of research, was there any type of research, our market validation that you did Um, in this process to be able to also solidify that these, this target customer group is looking to solve the problem that you're able to bring. Yeah, that's a really great question. So I mean, luckily, Um, we could call this. So in in an anthropology we call this participant observation, where if you just participate or you just observe, you end up with a biased understanding of what's around you. Watching people do research, you're not really engaged in the process or understanding their pain points or anything like that, or maybe some of the underlying incentives that are driving them. And if you are just doing and you're not thinking bigger about the systems that play that are impacting you, you can also kind of get lost in the sauce. And said, this is beautiful methodological approach called participant observation. And because Rene and I come from the research world and we're trying to improve upon the research world, we have this uh exposure to people authentically griping about research and the new rules in place around getting funding, around building a team, around the kind of analysis that they're kind of being asked to do, the e D I initiatives in place, the the S G initiatives that are in place, that are all governing how you fund your laboratory and we're over here building a product and we're like, AH, is that so? Is that really frustrating for you? Wouldn't be helpful? Would...

...you like to get that millions of dollars grant? Yeah, what if? What if I could make answering that question on your ethics application Super Easy? Yeah, easy, son, easy. I will solve that problem for you. And it just comes from I'll call the approach participant observation, being in it, knowing the community well and also working really hard to kind of step outside and look at it from a problem solving perspective. Mm Hmm, wow, UM, brilliant. So one of the other things I've heard you all say is about, Um, you know, women's issues, Um uh, or differences just being kind of branded as complicated and being ignored. So kind of explain a little bit of context around that. Yeah, so it's fascinating. Is this really interesting dichotomy. There are two reasons and they still path path ethics, which blows my mind because it should not fly. But these are the two most accepted reasons for just pretending that female bodies don't exist. One is because women are men. The other one is it's too complicated. We couldn't possibly account for it. Two things should be mutually exclusive. One said they're the same and the other one says it's so complex we could never even and I don't, I don't understand how those make it through ethics. I have no idea, but it's starting to become unacceptable, which is great. But yeah, it's it's and I think it comes from this kind of mystification of the female body, this kind of mothering of the nuances of the female experience, whether that be fertility or that being even just energy helpful to zoological differences, the birthing process, the pregnancy process, the pay a mental calls and process, all of those things are so shrouded in culture that it becomes hard to touch them with, quote quote, science. So the topic that I covered at the women's health summit recently was do women need to pitch like men in order to raise capital? So how is your business, your commercial model being around addressing some of the complexities that are very fervently branded as too complex to solve, and now you're going to predominantly male investors to pitch this business idea? Um kind of explain that journey for all the women entrepreneurs that are in the audience, as well as the male entrepreneurs, just kind of giving a slice, a little sliver, of what it is that you...

...are encountering and how you're overcoming some of those obstacles. I have war rounds, I have war rounds from this fundraising process and that you can send. You can spend years and months talking to the wrong people Um and I would say that it's a lot like deciding, and this is an overused Pataphor in the in the investment space, which is it is a lot like going on dates, and the thing that I've learned is that it doesn't matter. Just like with your stuff, doesn't matter how much your candidate makes or has to offer, if they are jerks, don't have a second date, just just drop it. It's not like. I have had people tell me to my face that it would have been better if I picked a man as my co founder. I have had, to my face tell me that women don't make up a significant portion of the market, while they were looking at like a very like. And I apologize to the other CO founder who was on the all kind of as a part of this outreach initiative, because she specifically worked in Parkinson's and they were super interested in Parkinson's and I was like, look, you should fund Parkinson's. Absolutely, it's super important, but that's like point zero something percent of the population. Women are fifty one percent, and so if Parkinson's is a market, women and female bodies should be a market, because that is a much larger market. Also Fund Parkinson's. You don't throw other companies under the riser. But fascinating. Like I when I was pargnant, I got asked, while, are you even gonna want to have a company after you have the baby? I have in in meetings been like had my body commented on while I was pregnant and while I was postpartum. I have had entire meetings where like, I'm rest feeding right now. So, granted, my boobs are huge, but I have had to like I'm want to get close into here and like look at the investor and be like my eyes, my eyes are up here, oh white God in the wilds and is and and and and bless bless everyone. But yeah, you just have to if somebody gives you the creepy vibe or the I don't get a Vibe, it is not your problem, it is not your your hill to die on. Thank room for their time and get out. Oh my gosh, can I just say that I don't know how old you are and you don't need to tell me. I think maybe you're millennial, millennial, maybe you're even on the cusp, but I will tell you, my guest, that you are, because every single time I have a millennial on the show they're so transparent and candid about what life is really like. And boy isn't that a breath of fresh air to have on the show. We are talking about boobs that are very distracted on what's being pitched. Here it is and the lovely and then and so and one of you know. Do I care...

...that? They looked at my boobs like. Granted, are huge right now. They were Nice. Aside from the boost. We'll take the night right, right, right, right, right. Uh Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy? I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opper tunities. Learn more at legacy, Hyphen DNA DOT COM backslash kit. Have you raised money? Yeah, so, oh my gosh, and just yeah, yeah, more transparency. So we did a friends and family round which, if you're ever gonna put fire on your soul to be successful, friends and family rounds will certainly do that. They got us to an M v P for our product and initial funding for our clinical validation, which was so valuable, so important, and gave, I mean honest here, gave me the runway to learn how to be a CEO of a startup, which was amazing. Um, we then, especially while I was pregnant, super hard to raise money. Struggled with our precede. We have just knock ron wood, because it's up and down every day. Finished that pre seed and what is bonkers is that I have already closed the seed ground and I haven't got all the money in from my pre speed Whoa tell us about that? I hinted at this in the interface conference we did, which is if you're addressing issues like big opportunities, big market opportunities, that opportunity is there because someone else didn't do the groundwork and it's been too hard and too complicated to address until that. And so for a company that focuses on those systemic, systemically ignored kind of opportunities so you can get to precede or two seed, you have to be a much more mature company than in any other space. So, as an example, I just want to have a software that identifies as physiological states and bodies. I've had to do my team and I have actually everything from scratch. Everything...

...has to be observational in trialed, everything has to be clinic trial. Everything has to be tested before we even get to some in Canada usually you don't do seed until you have clinical validation, and so our company needed to do three years of research and development before we could even get to a seed round, which is supposed to be the starting point. Right, right, right, and the whole ideas you're like planning thing, you seed to germinate. No, we've been germinating for three years just to get to this point and finding precede investors to come on to systemically underlooked problem, the issue, and find me preseed investors who are willing to come on and know that, like, this is a long precede, like there's a lot of work and time and effort at risk. That's going to happen over the next couple of years. Incredibly challenging, incredibly challenging. Everyone I spoke to big VC firms and angels. They're like, once you have clinical validation, we're we're interested and absolutely going to go back to those people. But we found finally an investor who said I will finish your preseat so you can get to where you need to go and I'm going to be your lead angel in the next one and we're just gonna trunche it and only take as much as you need to bring on anyone who's strategic. But if you need to, we've got it covered. And that was it was the one to hit that kind of finished everything up. A lot of blood, sweat and tears to get there. Huh that if you had called me two days ago, I would have been in my feelings and and and the our angel, mystry was trying to help us close around before this, all kind of light started to perculate and everything could still go wrong. That's the that's the fun part, the rollercoaster part of Entrepreneur Um. A really bad day, trying to help us close a deal, uh, and he was like, I can't do it, I'm out and was going to pull all of the capitality promised out of vange around and they were like. So I sat down in the shower for half an hour and was like, I am not cut out for this. I called him, I didn't text him back, I didn't come him back. Didn't you know? I'm back. Wait until mid day the next day. He'd go in for work, came back, he said I found the rest of the money. Don't worry about it. And but it was one of those like twelve hour just I quit and you would never, you would never, but you just you're like, am I qualified? And I cut out. Yeah, I didn't. You know, like just give us a glimpse of what that journey is, that introspective conversation and journey is like, when you're questioning your your identity and you're a billity to capabilities to even do this. I...

...will say that being an athlete before coming into this was incredibly, incredibly helpful. Yeah, there's always a finish line and honestly, it doesn't matter how you cross it. If you need to crawl across it, you come across it. If it doesn't really matter. And every finish line that you managed to cross, you will become a better athlete and you will learn something about yourself. And so these finish lines that I've seen or that have been hard, so I would the investor pulling out of the lastment and then turning around it twelve hours later and being like okay, now I'm ready to go. Um. That is a lot like at s growing and when you're like Oh, I can see the finish line, it is right there, that I'm so close. That's also when you're like seven and a half minutes into the most pain you've ever been in your entire life, the seconds left of pain. And so when that person basically said I'm out, the answer wasn't okay, now I can't get across the finish line. The answer was, how much is it going to hurt to get this finish line and how much can I tolerate and what tools do I have available to me to get across the finish line? What compromises do we need to make? What changes do we have to make to my plan or my strategy? Because especially drive off, I quit, this is never actually on the table. It's more quitting until night, closing the books for tonight. I'M gonna go sleep on this and then figure out how to do those last fifty to get across the line. It's that resilience muscle that that's cultivated through this journey that is just absolutely incredible. And you know, I think we hear all the time about how failure is the path to success and you know, failure is really the common theme in the Entrepreneur Your Journey, because you've got to fail and fail until you get to the success right the right beachhead, the right value proposition, the right investor, all of those different things. It's just different when we're actually experiencing it firsthand and it's not someone else's story. It is way less sexy to be in fine yourself than it is to hear someone else resiliently overcoming their pain. Right, right, right, exactly, uh Um. So one of the things that I want to make sure I touch on is another thing that, again, I was really impressed about you and your team and what you've been able to accomplish, is, when we're doing this discovery, is that you said paid pilot, and this is like one of my soap boxes. I do workshops and, Um, speaking engagements around piloting to profit, because there's so many innovators out there that have five pilots, seventeen pilots, none of them are paid and they are just burning through cash like crazy trying to manage it all and it's just impossible for them to really be successful trying...

...to juggle that many pilots at a given time, especially when very often they're very they're different, Um, and not getting the clinical evidence that they need or the success and not having any type of monetization strategy on the back end. So speak to how in the heck did you get a paid pilot and share that story with our audience so that way they can get more paid pilot engagements as well. So I've used a couple of different strategies and I've had some good mentorship around this. And the different thing is is that every paid pilot is a little bit different and everyone has different incentives attached to it. So the first thing for pilots, some of them we don't get paid for. What we do with that is via as certain whether or not we want the candidate to be a partner of my normative. Is there mutually beneficial outcomes attached to them running their trial using our software? If it is super, super beneficial from a branding perspective or from an algorithmically validating perspective or population addression perspective, that we can just ask them to cover any increased costs that we have attached to the project, then we will do that. would be like, yes, you can use this software for free. There's going to be a bit of a bumping data costs. We will give you the platform if you can cover the cloud costs period, and that's revenue that's coming in for us. Helps US get to economies of scale and growser database helps our algorithms approve and nobody is going to go no, host my stuff for free. If you say I will give you my platform for free, will do the analytics, will let you data collect, let your data manage. Just cover the costs that that costs us. That is a great step into was this valuable, that this decrease your other costs? Overall, great. Let continue to use that. The other one is that often researchers have really specific pieces that they would like built into the platform and if it's again really really on our own wife and it's more of a partnership opportunity. But if it's just a nice little tweaker Adam, we're super happy to do that. It would cost us about this much to do that for you. Are you able to cover that cost? And it's just being really honest, and you talk about kind of like the millennial transparency is about. I want to do that for you and I want to help you do that. We can do that for you. This social cost us to do that for you. Can you cover that cost? And that's it's it's not pay us for our software, it's we can customize this for you. We can make it exactly what you need, as long as you have a little bit of budget for us to do that. And I have never had anyone say you know, and if and...

...if they don't have the budget to customize what we say, great, we can leave it as it is for you. We can. We can find a way to do it that way. Um, but we can't do anything beyond that because, like you said, if you're running eight pilots and make different fields and they all have different demands on them, you're just gonna run out of money and you're gonna run out a time. And so better someone has a customized will ask. The answer is yes, it's just gonna cost us a little bit to do that. Do you have a budget to cover it? So what is next for you and UH, minormative? What are some of your future commercialization milestones that are on the horizon? Yeah, so, I mean first, this is an exciting platform to be on high health innovators and researchers. I built a product for you. So, like you just heard, we are looking for we're looking for partners. If if you have a project or or a specific research innovation that you want to test and be really influences of female persons on and you're like my normative needs our research take next steps. Hey Man, I've got a pretty cheap platform for you. To use do your research on if you want to do that. If you are more looking for just a platform to decrease about lab costs, I also got your back. So we're looking to really build out the robustness and the variety of the types of research we can onboard onto our platform. That's super important to getting towards that step of representativeness. The next thing that we're looking to be on that is hardening the text so we have a beautiful data collection vehicle, we have a beautiful data lake, but to really make it so that when innovators come onto the software and they're pulling data and they're looking at analytics and everything else, but it's a positive experience. So building that research community around the platform so that there's collaboration opportunity, there's an opportunity to express yourself and get what you wanted, it super, super important. The third thing, which is more of an internal millstone because it's it's all kind of funded, already in underway, is we are almost at clinical validation for our algorithms. So data collection processes should be done this fall and then from there on we will be able to make the claim that we can replace a full bunch of your wet lap costs, which is a very helpful value proposition to people in the research space. That's so exciting. I can't wait to continue to watch your journey over the next few months and cheer you on. Thank you reach those milestones. So, Danica, how do people get a hold of you if they want to, Um, you know, get a demo of your platform, if they want to use your platform or kind of just follow you and your journey. Yeah, absolutely. So you can get abold to me personally at Jennica the A and I K A at my normative dolts. Yeah, that's my email address. It is open to you. Few questions, comes concern and STOATS, queries, comments on how and the...

...heck are you gonna be able to do that? I'm super having to have those conversations. You can find us on most social platforms. So twitter, instagram, facebook, at my normative or at my dodge normative. Um, just a little bit of very ability there. And Uh, the other place that you can find us is in your apple APP store. IOS is where we are. So if you just want to take a peek at what the user experience would look like using the software for data collection that is available and up for for Um Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today and you're sharing your story. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who shared the show with friends and colleges. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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