Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 1 year ago

Co-creation and connections: Managing a startup in times of crisis w/ Katherine Jin


Timing can be crucial to any startup - enter the market at the wrong time and it’s an uphill battle, enter it at the right time and things can really take off.

But even the best timing can’t protect a fledgling business from incorrect product assumptions that can cost valuable resources.

Two key factors that improve a startup’s survival rate are great industry advisors and a passion for getting to know the end-user.

In today’s episode, Katherine Jin, CTO, and Co-Founder of Kinnos, speaks openly about her startup’s challenges.

She shares her take on how good timing helps, but the support of key industry opinion leaders and a willingness to co-create with end-users, are equally critical to success.

Tune in and get Katherine’s insights on what it means to be a young entrepreneur managing a startup during a pandemic - and see how they’re making it work.


Here are the show highlights:

  • The ups and downs of taking a college idea into the world of startups (7:38)
  • Key opinion leaders: The difference between getting a ‘no’ or a ‘yes’ when pitching for funding (10:49)
  • Why proof and efficacy are not interchangeable (13:12)
  • Getting to know your end users can pay off in big ways (15:57)
  • Co-creation can put assumptions to rest and give rise to better solutions (18:18) 
  • Awards and accolades are great for startups, but, the real prize is the connections that you make (24:57)
  • Good timing can drive big success, but patience and the ability to pivot in times of crisis is critical for startups (28:40)
  • The pluses and minuses of supply chain issues (33:38)


Guest Bio

Katherine Jin is CTO and Co-founder of Kinnos, a New York-based company that is pioneering color technology to revolutionize how the world uses disinfectants. 

Their first product, won several awards, is used by the New York Fire Department and has been field-tested by NGOs and healthcare workers in Liberia, Guinea, Haiti, DR Congo, and Uganda.

Katherine earned her BA in Computer Science and Biology from Columbia University in New York City, has several academic publications to her name.

She is also a recipient of the Forbes 30 under 30 in Healthcare award

If you’d like more information about Kinnos or the Highlight solution, you can touch base with Katherine at, visit their website at, or find them on LinkedIn at Kinnos.

Welcome to Coiq, where you learn howhealth innovators maximize their success. I'm your host door, Roxyfounder of legacy, DNA and International Beth selling author ofhow health innovators maximize market success through handed conversationswith health innovators earlier doctors and influencers you'll learn how tobring your innovation from idea to start up to market domination, and now,let's jump into the latest episode of Coiq Ilcome Back Coiq listeners. Ontoday's episode, we have Catherine Gin with us who is the CTO and Co founderof Kinnos. Welcome to the show Cathrin. Thank you for having me. I'm reallyexcited. Yes, me too, you are doing some incredible stuff. These days, tellour listeners and viewers a little bit about your background and what you'reinnovading yeah, so my name is Cathrine Jen. I started a company back in twothousand and fourteen at the height of the Bol crisis, with two of my bestfriends from college and the companies called Cano that our main goal is toreduce infectious disease outbriaks across the world in any study, whetherit be the current epidemics that we're observing right now with cogid or Golli.Back in two thousand and fourteen or hospital acquired infections that justoccur on a daily basis in regular healthcare sedates, so we started the company back in tothousand and fourteen Columbia held a design challenge which was kind oftheir version of a hacathon where they brought in actual health care workersfrom the fields from Liberian gime who told us what palms they were facing,and one of the most pressing issues mentioned was that human error, anineffective disinfection, was leading to high rates of infecton transmission,and if only there was some way to see what they were doing so now. Kannos.Our main goal is to improve the use of disinfecteds to empower people toactually use. Thus effect is correctly every single time we use it, and we dothat by colorising disinfection. So I normally don't delve too much intothe product, because you know most of the conversation is around. You know the whole business strategiesand tactics and commercialization, but what you're doing is so timelyinrelevant for what we're all facing right now. So if you don't mind just togive a little bit more color and contact, what is the difference between what'shappening now without your solution and then how yoursolution changes that yeah, okay, so disinfection, ID scary and exciting atthe same time, yeah lots of P. I mean I never knew I'd be working ondisinfection's hard to say that I have that you know when I was younger. I hada passion for it, but now that I know how important it is, of course I'mpassionate about it yeah yeah. So there are a couple major problems withdisinfection. This happens again, weregardless of whether or not you'rein the hospital for Justtar routine surgery or an epidemic seting. So theproblem with infections are their transparents, so you can't see whereyou're applying them. So you only need one teen, Wenee spor to be alive. Onthat surface, to infect you and possibly ruin your life, and sotherefore, if you're not covering every single inch of that surface, you're,basically not showing anything. Second thing people don't know aboutdisinfectings is diseffectors require a contact time to actually work. So, forexample, during the Bolo crisis, the contact time for bleach, TA, Killy Bola,was ten minutes and when we went to Liberiaan Gine- and we spoke withdotton nurses, no one was waiting that ten minutes. If you don't wait for theright amount of contact time to elapse, nothing is killed again. This happensin us. Hospitals was hospital, cuir infections, all the time, Merca, sedith,etc, etc. You want to put bleach or a similar tostinfectant down on a surfacefor three minutes and wait for the...

...three minutes to elapse before youtouch that surface, but unfortunately, it's very difficult to know with threeminutes. Upthe past, it's very difficult to know. You cover everyaspect of the surface yeah. Therefore, what we've invented is highlight. It'sa patantant color additive platform that is combined with existingdisinfectance that are already widely used. So higlight enhanced thesinfections are colorized, so you can see exactly where you have and havethat colored and then the color fates from color to colorless after a fewminutes to approxiblte with D disavection is done and the surfice issafe to touch so highlight overcomes language, education and tradingbarriers in immediately a mabls, a completely untrained person tocorrectly disinfect services every single time it jis is ffected as youused. So it's just absolutely incredible and, like I said scary aswell, because when you think about what goes on in the hospital setting everyday, like you said when a pandemic is not happening, it's really scary toknow that, but yet exciting to know that. There's a solution like yours outthere, and so because of that like this solution was just- is important prior to our covid crisis, asas it is now. Yes exactly. I think the main thing I want to emphasize isinfectious invetrous disease prevention isn't something we should only bethinking about during times of an epidemic, millions of Americans everyyear. Millions of people globally are affected by these infectous pathages.So let's say you go to a hospital. Less than half of critical services andhealthcar settings are properly cleained. So that's already a hugeamount. If you're going to hill me fora small looutine surgery, let's say youjust ne: Get some stitches or something or just get at I be putting you're notexpecting to come out of the hospital with a life threatening illness rightright. But that's what happens if you could see it? We met a patient thatcame in just for a little time in surgery and he was in the hospital fortwo years because you couldn't fly off that seagive infection, so it can bedeadly. It can be deadly. Yes, exactly and increasingly in this interconnectedworld. You know we are really not doing a good job across the board inprotecting ourselves from infectious seses, as everyone can clearly see withwhat happened with coved iteen. You know, property contamination doesn'tony need o current hospitals need o curs in food settings, travel settings.You know right now. WE MTA is cleaning its the subway carts every night. Iargue that they should have been doing that already. N. The fture they should do tall thetime. Yes, the grocery store carts to now,there's so many things to be encounter every single day. We don't realize howmany people have come into contact with and are honestly so contaminated yeah. So it's EAN, Iinvisible yourclean well and it's invisible. So it's so scary because youjust you, don't you don't see it? It's exactly it's Ensy to not be afraid,because you don't actually see the problem until one day, you're sick,there's, no actual enemy, you're fighting, so it ma what makes peoplecomplacent and I don't think it's People's fault. I think TDIS invectionis just hard in general. It's a topic that people think sounds easy like. Ohget a lie, all wipe, wipe down the carry down, yeah, Blahblah, yeah, easypc, but even liesall live everyone uses wrong. If you look at the fact it saysyou need to wait ten minutes for to Disinbeck O surfice. I do not thinkanyone has ever waited ten minutes for a liestyle wifes a like sit wet on acirface. I don't even think they can sit wet that long. So absolutely right.Exactly if it' sat that long, it probably dry out yeah exactly so yeah Ijust just in general thisinfection is hard. EEXAMINATION is hard we're givingthis job to ebs workers in hospitals who are oftenundertrained, they're, working, multiple jobs, and you know they haveto balance a lot of things. They not only have to make sure the room issuper super clean. They alwoy have to make sure the doctor can coming in out.The family can come in and out and they...

...have to turn over a massive number ofrooms and a tiny amount of time, Yeah Tho, giving them a better tool,hopefully will improve the proop disinfection across the board. Soso, let's just kind of rewind a little bit and go back to okay wow. This was acollege idea that started off as a hakathon. What H, which is soincredibly exciting? What has your journey been like over the last threeyears? The ups and downs? You know the the game, changing decisions and wins,and in some of the challenges that you faced, yeah so transitioning a start transitioning into an actualcompany versus a school project or a school startup. That requires a lot ofwork now. I think a lot of people in college want to start start up. So alot of people want to do their own thing, but it really does come down toat the end of the day, your own personal level of commitment, so manyBas in Kavin. We went all in like when we graduated, we knew we were onlygoing to be doing. You knows that was going to be our only focus, and I thinkthat was very good, but it was also very stressful because, right when wegraduated, we knew we need had to raise an outside round of funding up until wegraduated, we have to fund it primarily by grants and competitions. So we hadtaken no equity funding, but we need to reach the next level to inbelet ournext product, which is a highlight wive product for US hospitals. We need toraise money, and so you know that was obviously a very, very interestingchallenge for three recent graduates. You know I hadn't ever made like a slydect Ford company before and we used to go to meetings with potential investorsand not even know how to ask for money like we' have a whole lunch at t. Theend of the meeting I don't know like I was like am I supposed to say like? Areyou an invested ist like right? I don't know, what's the next step here and TolYeahthatiroud? Obviously it took pretty much off wo thnd sixteen Yo closearound in two husand and seventeen, and then we started working on our productdevelopment. So our first product highlight powder. We've alreadycompletely finished it. It's all the market, it's ver use with large bleachsolutions, so primarily in epidemic settings like you know, Colira or peoplup. However, US hospitals use beach. Wipes and tons of consumers also useBLAE twipes, so we pipogate the product a little bit so that we could also workwith bleach wipes and that required the massive ameunt of additional rndd andalso proving that it actually works. It's simple to say you have a productthat works, but it's really hard to make people believe you, especially ifyou're young and you haven't, had a product like this before, so we alsohad to conduct a lot of outside studies, climincal test working with a lot ofdifferent universities and other organizations to bring legiimacy to theefficacy of the technology. But I think you know. Basically what I learned sofar is that you just got to do all your homework ahead of time and anticipateevery single possible question. Someone will ask you and if you show them thatyou're prepared, regardless of your youth or your inexperience, I thinkthat can really say a lot yeah. So so what you and T I sil appreciate yourcandor. It's really wonderful, because there'sso many people that are listening to the show that go through similarchallenges, and so it's very encouraging. Inspiring to hear thatthere's someone else that's going through that too were yeah. So when youyou know, so what do you think was the difference between you pitching andgetting nose and you pitching and getting the yes that you needed yeah.So I definitely think the most important way to move forward, especially as ayoung team, is to look for good advisors. That should be your firstgoal coming out before you even begin to raise money. I know people alwayssay like you need to have some gray hair on that tenslide Ar Gont. Take you seriously. It is trueto get our foot into the door. We had... show investors and people we werespeaking to that. We were talking to the major key opinion leaders in thisspace: Weu Weren, just like gooping off and like making a product about talkingto anyone like we were had Gomutala on our advicen board. He is the keyopinion leader in infection prevention. He will to CC guidelines- and you know,he's a really really great person, of course, very smart and so having hisbackin increases legitiacy of the company. So much, and so not just in atechnical aspect, but also in a business aspect, so none of us were obusiness like none of us were like ticon or anything as undergrads. Wewere all technical, so we came on to the team as three technical coboundersand I think it's really important to be open minded about realizing what youneed to learn. I think a lot of things as a scientist I used to think wereimportant like slyd deck or networking. You know I was like who cares what onthis, who cans up a liht that look like you know it just matter he's on itright or who cares not? Networking like. I want my work to speak for itself, butthat is not how you do business and Tho realizing. You know that I also hadthese wrong assumptions about how you know things are conducted and Yeso. Youknow changing my mind. You know realizing that thinking. Networking ishard and I don't want to do. It is a really limiting perspective, and so youknow in the very beginning, Jason Kevin and I used to go to networking events.We would show up we'd, be the only kids there. The only Asian kids there andJason would make us split up and go join other groups and just like forceour ways into those conversations, and I hate it. So much yeah is so important.You know you got Ta cul be putting yourself out there constantly meetingpeople, especially if you haven't done it Bifore, because the more people youhave on your side with experience, the more serious of people will take youyeah yeap, absolute, absolutely, no doubt so. Let's talk about proof andefficacy. So this can take a lot of time and it can take a lot of money andbe a very painful process. So talk about your journey in this endeavoryeah, so I det. so you know, as I said already, we came in as three technicalcofounder, so Jason Kepvin and I had a kind of an idea of what we believed wastechnical gimacy. In this space. However, the classic saying like don'tmake assumptions, we made an assumption from the very beginning, because wewere a private company. We could not publish or share our data in a way thatwould be Peur, reviewed and legitiate. You know no matter what we thought. Itwould always look like an advertisement. It wouldn't be taken seriously and sofor the first couple years of working on Kennos, we didn't even look atclinical data. I Ta. We want evicacy data and then you know when we startedpiviting to the hospital space, and we realize you know eficacy is'n enough. Ican show them that it's going to kill seat if every single time, but what Ireally need to show hospitals is that cleaning is being improved. So that'swhen we started engaging with hospitals and other partners and also startedwriting our own papers so generating our own literature on how thetechnology works. Why we think it's novel? Why we think in advance is thefield of infection prevention. I think one of the biggest lessons I've hadjust in general from Cados. Is that like, if I'm not going to Brag you onmyself, if I'm not going to put myself out there, no one else is going to doit for me and so expecting people to come to you to talk to you or expectpeople to just fy your product or extect. Youll, just o know that whatyou're doing is cool will never work. You have to be putting yourself outthere constantly in most days, nothing's going to happen or most daysyou're going to go to a conference, and you think wow, I don't I nothing cameout of this and then two years later maybe you'll have a connection thatwill help with Tha licencin agreement. You know yeah, I think it's just reallyputting all the tendrils out there not being too proud to go to you know thesemeetings and talk to people put yourself out there yeah. I definitelythink in any endeavor, but especially an entrepreneurship. We put eightypercent of the effort in before we even start to see any of that fruit come to fruition and most people give up yes right. They'relike this is not working and they quit...

...before, and you hear time and timeagain story after story of you know like they were so close to the finishline, but they just couldn't see it and then they quit right before so it's youknow you just have to keep after it right, persistence, determination, Youh,K, O yeah. I think people just need to remember being here. Goin to start upsounds glamorous, but it is he not the least glarorous lifestyle, a it's Faltiright, yeah, ers lifestyle. So you also talked a lot aboutcollaboration with keyopinion leaders and different state holder groups, so share with us a little bit about thatjourney, because I think that you had a very enlightening experience thathelped you pivot and change your product, like you, said from idiationfrom really what was going to be viable in the marketplace and to you know someof the features and functionality of that. So, let's talk about that yeah,so another, I think you know, part of being a great part of being a goodstartup founder, is to be constantly looking for who your anusers are goingto be so before even kind of any of the protyping of our physical device began.Jason Kevin and I were in hospital shadowing EBS staff, the people whoclean the room for days and days and days on end andwe watch them. We ask them their problems. We clean simrooms ourselvesand I think that gave us a really good understanding of what the actualpainpoints were for the en user. So, at the end of the day, the most importantthing about the product is that the actual person that's using it likes it.It feels like they're doing a better job because of the product, and so itis always scared to talk to the end user. But I think what we learn is thatPutti, like again put yourself out there, we email tons of people, we haveconnections from our university, but it was also a ton of like cold emailing.You know bringing a professor connections bringing n alumniconnections asking anyone. You know that we possibly can note friendsfamily like do you have anyone in the health care space that is interested ininfection provention or can introduce us to a hospital, and once you get onefoot in the door, it becomes so much easier. Well, yeah one hospital isworking with you and they understand the value poposition of your product,getting other hospitals to be interested in buying and your podctisso much easier. But I do think the most important thing is that you need, as afounder, to not only be engaging key opinion leaders and you know greatadvisors, but also to be constantly engaging the actual people that will beusing your product so because, at the end of the day, all the ebs managerstold us it doesn't matter. If they don't like the product, we won't, wewon't buy it, and so you know that came down to it. We had to make a productthat people would actually use and people would actually look. So whatwere maybe some of the assumptions that you made about what the product wouldlook like versus what you learned when you shadowed them and really took thatfirst handed information, yeah yeah, you saw you Sawin, probably get excited,because there was so much that we change that it's kind of crazy yeah. Iwould say the first thing is we learned a lot about new problems. We didn'teven realize a lot of these major issues with this infactan until westarted shanowing EBS staff, for example disinfectance. The lids arereally like: Poorly they're, just the're, just cheaplacs right. So whenyou're in evs stuff, you have to pull out like ten of these wipes at a timeand it splashes in your face and it gets in your eyes, and no one woul knowthis unless they accare in there cleaning with ten wipes right rightright by now have booching my eyes at a million time, the first coule timesthis really sucks. I don't want to right o. That was one problem with theLID. Another problem we found was that people, because of is, were so annoyingto ous. Well, just keep the lids off and then you have this horrible problembecause bleach wives can expire. I don't know F people know that diesn'taffect its expired, but you always need... make sure that you use your deck disaffectment before the expiration gate, and once you open it, you must close.It completely, otherwise will be totally useless the next day yeah. Butright now exactly so, you know we were talking to nurses and abseper weretelling us. You know, that's a major problem. People leave open bucketsovernight, it's a waste of equipment, it's a waste of time and at the end ofthe day, that's also engagering patients, and so that was those are tworeally interesting features that we hadn't even thought about for theproduct, and so I guess the biggest thing that changed was. We initiallycame into this product. Thinking like, let's make a mechanical product, youknow you just press a lever, you put blue on the white, you pull the whiteout easy PC, nothing comblicated, we wanto avoid batteries, but as we wentthrough the process- and we were talking to all these EDA STAP- werealized a this. Anvection was a lot harder than we even thought. So we haveadded all these additional features and then be at the end of the day. The prodectneeds to work well and the prodit needs to be able to scale afterwards. So youknow, even though we thought the mechanical product was easier andsimilar to implement, when we actually did a study with ED staff and edsmanagers, bas majority preferred the electronic fuctiun and so being able tolook at that data and say: Okay, my assumption was wrong me. I put a lot oftime and also maybe a lot of money into another idea, but I also have to be inNou an adult and realize that the data is telling me something else and that Iwant people to do something that they actually like, so that that reallyradically changed our product. I mean, if you look now our product, it's anelectronic, it's an Eutronic Lid. It can pull the lifes back in so that theWIFES SONL dry out. It has additional features that we all added because ofthe EVS staff and even though initially we didn't think the batteries would beuseiful for hospitals. What we've seen is that hospitals don't Wani it all. Sowe had a lot of wrong assumptions coming in and thank God than all wecheck them. OLF, Hey! It's Dr Roxy! Here with a quickbreak from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves youneed to make to survive and thribe in the new covid economy? I want everyhealth innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivid strategies,which is why I created the covid proof, your business to the kid. The pivokitis a step by step pramework that helps you find your best tivid strategy. Itwalks you through six categories. You need to examine for a three hundred andsixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses,as you make your way through this comprehensive kid, you'll be armed withthe tools, tits and strategies. You need to make sure you can pivit withspeed without missing out on critical details and opportunities, learn moreat legacy. Hythan DNACOM BACKSLA kid. So you know one of the things that Ihear. Catherine, is that although the- although maybe there were someperceptions around I'm going to say age, maybe being a negative, at least whenit came to raising money right, but I also think that Youre your, Idon't know if it's just age but like your young experience, seems to havepositioned you with an incredible sense of curiosity Andand. So, instead of being kind ofI've been doing this for twenty or thirty years, I know what needs to bedone. It sounds like you've got your you and your team have gone into thiswith a curiosity and an openness to really be flexible in Agile, forcollecting that real feedback, which I think is incredibly important becausemost people most entrepreneurs, don't do co creation and when they dococreate majority of the time it's after they've already designed thesolution and they are just going in to get its confirmation bias. I am goingto ask people to yes, you like this. Yes, I, like it just agree, so theyreally aren't seeking real feedback,...

...because it's a pain I mean I've beenthere where I've invented something, and you put your heart and soul into it.You put all this money and effort, and then you realize that it's not exact,you haven't reached product market fit. Yet you need to do something differentand you're like Wat. It butyou know, there's so much learningthere with the failure right. It gives you the path to success AL, althoughit's really frustrating so I mean, I think, that it's incredibly wonderfulthat you guys have been so curious and so open. I think that that's going to play a huge part in your success yeah,I think Ha wolacs telling people future partners are new employees that I'm afallible human being. I don't know everything in my goal is just to learnmore and so there's any discourse or you disagree with me or you thinksomething else. I want to hear that, like I y a actively want you to tell meso I always check in you know, especially with like my rng team and Iaske like. Is there anything you don't like or you'r like Hac Don live oranything you think is stupid, like don't be afraid to come to me and saythis is stupid yeah. I think you know being humble andrealizing that, like being right, all the time isn't isn't important. Youknow. What's actually important is progress and moving forward and mebeing right really doesn't matter at the end of the day, and I think youknow, because we started this as young people, and you know we, we weren'tTisinfectan experts. You know we weren't like infection prevention experson, so initially all the science, Kevin Jason and I learned kind of onour own by ourselves, and I think that was a massively humbling process. whereI came into thinking like Ow, I cike dis in FEC cam, be like I took likeorganic chemistry. I could do any of this stuff. I had like I soat home that I really don't know anything in alot of things. I learned in college sure they were helpful, so I can learnmore in the future, but they weren't like actually applicable to the reallife situation. So I had to know begin a ged and realize that you know I haveto. I have to constantly be questioning what I know questioning what I believeand if I you know allow myself to. If I maintain an allusion to myself that Imight all the time the only person I'm hurting is myself yeah. So I actively,I actively see people to disagree with me. THAT'S BEAUTIFUL! Absolutely so! So, let's talk about you know I go toyour website and I look at your recognition. Page and you've got tonsof rewards tons of PR. So what is that journey been like for you in you know?Obviously, promotion is such a core part of commercialization, and- and soyou know establishing not just that efficacy and that safety and efficacy from aclinical setting, but also from a from a awareness standpoint. So what hasbeen your experience in that journey and how is that benefited you so faryeah? So I would say you know my first recommendation to any student foundersthat are still in college. Is that thereis a massive massive network offree money waiting to be given to you and then you can get really great prfrom it. So there's like the clegut inventors, competition, Limoson, Mat,etc, etc. Etca in our junior and senior year, while we were running Kino, sowou're just basically doing the competition circuit and that got isconnected with so many people. I met like the head of the patent office andI remember when I was like I was only like eighteen. That was like thecoolest thing ever you know Anan also. She was Asian American Saws,extra polm right right right, I thinkou know getting. I think students shoulddefinitely take advantage of that and students. You don't have to just be anUNDERGRAD. You know you can be a master student, you coul be a PhD student oryou can even be affiliated with university. There are tons in tons andtons of competitions out there that are specifically appealing to technicalcofounders that are trying to transition their product. You know froma cool, interesting science in the lab... something that actually will. Youknow, improve live. So I would say you know, definitely keep an eye on that. Iwould also say another really important help for us was government funding. Ithink you know positioning yourself, so you can receive great funding. Forexample, like an Sbir or you know, grandchallenge grant, which is what wegot, helps a lot to because then you kind of have these connections withinUSAD or whatever organization and a SEP or whatever, whatever organization isrunning, the Grat that can help you get into these places, who have experiencealready before as well, and so you know the competitions and the accolades areall really cool. I definitely think like in the beginning when it was allhappening. I was super syhed and I was like. Oh my God. I can't believe I'mgetting all these things. I can put them o o resume, but you also realize,as you know, you graduate and you grow up, that it doesn't really matter. Idon't ever look at my resume. I don't even know the last time anyone haslooked at it right. He goes to show that so those awards are cool, but thereal important thing that came out of those for, like the connections andthet people that weve en so even if you don't win, you know it's just good toput yourself out there constantly just be learning and mee more people. Youknow, I think, that's that's the most important thing that we learned. Iwould also say you know, as I think, a lot of people again go into the Starblive thinking it's going to be glamorous, so people go into the surplife thinking. You know like. Oh I'm going to pull a salary, I'm going to doall these things. Like I'm gonna, you know like like it's like it's like atotally inligione job as a fuwman. You Know Tokin a job, a corporate, you know,but that's not how it works. Like Jason, Canani didn't take salary like thefirst year like we were just like eating like eggs over rice all the time we had a lot of like fair funnyexperiences. Looking back and I'm very lucky in privilege that I u know, Icould start a start after college like I didn't- have to support my family oranything like that, but I realizing that you're going to have to make a lotof sacrifices. If you want your started to be successful, it's it's going torequire a lot from you, and so you know just being aware that you're going tohave to humble yourself many many times in thes ofcoming year. Yes, definitelyso I want to talk about timing, so you know a lot of times. You know when youhear these successful, startup or entrepreneurial stories. You hear you know, there's there's, there's luckand then thereis definitely timing of, and so it's pretty darn incredible thatyour college project like four years ago ledyou to something that is so necessary again always but even more at thismoment in time as we're talking about the pandemic. So how how you know when you think about yourprecovid strategy and in what's happening now hat what changes havebeen made if anything, yeah yeah, that's a that's a great question. Imean I've been in a infection prevention space for a really long time,so you know I hate to say it, but I knew an epidemic of ONA skill. You knowwhy covid was coming and I also knew that we, you know as the world weresolely not ready get, and I think you know the important thing is like beingable to actually link your product to a problem. You know, I think, a lot ofpeople design, a cool solution were a cool gadget and then they, you knowkind of stick that into a problem n say that fix US tack. I'm super guilty ofthat. I've definitely done that before, but Gess we started from the problemitself. It kind of was a guarantee that we knew. This was a problem, an you.This is a Goubea continued problem and we knew that you know doesn't matterhow much we banc this humanity. Epidemics are still going to happen.Kno viruses and pathages are still going to affect us, so definitely covid.Nineteen, you know was a surprise in some sense. Definitely hew quicklymoved, but you know in terms of Kinos and also in terms of personally, I havebeen mentally prepared for Thi Sfore very long time in terms of our kid interms of our strategy. I think there are a couple things I want to say tha.I think the first thing I want to say is:...

We have been trying to launch you know hand santitiser product for a while.Now and you know, we've been doing a lot of rnd on it, but you know theregulisn or the regulations and the the regulations in the fdathey're a littletoug to navigate, and so we've been focusing mostly on our beach wiveproduct, but because the FDA relax, ome guidelines around making hands anticersbecause of the lack of Han entie whos. We were able to actually update ourmanufacturing chain and start producing hands and contors wil start sellingthat as well, and you know, even though it doesn't necessarily have the kinnostechnology embetted in it. Yet it's really sending us up for in the futurewhen we do ha. Finally, Finish that research and can't implement it, wealready have a customerman base. A people already know like cenisals wo,makes hand Santitizers, and it also feels good to like actually be ablemaking something that is hoping right now during the epidemic. You knoweveryone needs hand, canantizers they're, going to be everywhere postthe outbreak. So I think you know realizing that the world has changedand it's not necessarily you know it's not going to return to what it wasbefore you know, you're going to see like Handsan, has er bottles like catchup bottles like o right right. You know, I mean therever everywhere exactlyexactly so kind of being aware of where thiis overall trend is going. You knowlike Mak. This wasn't really on our timeline in this year, but itaccelerated the timeline, because the timing was good yea. Anotherinteresting thing I'd like to talk about is: We have a crottage right nowthat is being scaled up for manufacturing we're just going throughthe highlight wibe slid and we are wauching at the end of July andunfortunately, covid hit how much sooner like in April March. Right, yes,very frustrating thing for our team: Oers was we have a solution, but we arejust bound by just like timing and like plastics and like teriffs andmanufacturing and there's nothing I can do to make this go faster, yeah, justbeing, I guess, being patient in realizing that you know even in thebest timing. Sometimes the timing still is imperfect and you know being at joalbeing able to adapt to that. So you know, even though I know hospitels havereally been iundated with corona virus cases. So it's not like the easiesttime to go in be like hey wan to use is new groduct right, so we're justrelying on a lot of our own network connections. We were lying on. You knowwaiting this at the Produ that we've made a so we've pivot a little bit. Youknow kind of INSENTS Tik casting a super superwine net, we're going to tryand catch. You know more specific hospitals, hospitals. We know like he's,please your hospitals. We know that you know we have good relationships with,so it's a little bit more targeted, but I think that Aftr, I think, movingforward. DISONDUCTION and INFECTON PREVECTON will only become morerelevant and so I think, Kanno's you know we're working on additionalproducts for other disinfectants, like quat, an Hydrotane proxide. I want tomake sure that you know we have a product platform that can reallyaddress all possible this effectavs across the board. Yeah yeah, it'sreally smart. You know that is funny that you brought that up, because I wasgoing to ask you about that. So supply chain is an issue right. So even if youhave the most incredible innovation right now, bcause we're in a globalpandemic supply chain issues are very pervasive right now and- and so are you taking preorders yeah I mean I were taking preorders. Iwould definitely say you know: Go check us out at Kinosta us if you email thecontact page Jason, our CEO wilespond to you like in five minutes, turn around on time. I think it'sdefinitely weird to be working on something right now in this time. Youknow I have a lot of most of the people you know are most people are, you know, losing, I guess, theyrea sense ofnormality right, like people are losing their jobs or people you know, are youknow not able to pursue the same path that they wanted to pursue beforecoronavirus, and I feel very fortunate and Lucky that you know we've been ableto grow our team during this period.

We've been just like pushing forwardduring this period. So even though it's really frustrating you know, some ofour manufacturing is done in China and when you know all China was walkd down.That was like two months of nothing. Getting done in May have there'snothing. We can do everyone's quarantied at home, you know so so,just I guess rolling with the punches. I think you really need to know. Youneed to really need to know what you like. What is out of your control, thatyou have to just accept and learn to live with, and what is in your controlthat you can push forward, and so what was in our control was looking at you.Suppliers was contacting our suppliers, you know all over and Tryig to find theright ingredients and bottles to make hand senatizer what wasn't in contr.Our control was, you know, ramping up our manufacturing for ahighlight, Livs lock. You know, which is why you know it's being lauched inJuly. Now is post a little bit earlier, which we wanted. No thinkn Yo, knowclasses and minuses either way, I'm just trying to be realistic about thesituation and not take anything personally. So it sounds like you have a really whether you've done this intentionallyor not. It sounds like you have a really solid self talk strategy andhelp you wheather this mentally and emotionally. Yes, yes, I mean you know,we've been running this company now, since tw thousand and fourteen that'ssix years, that's six years of like Thaileres accumulated embarrassmentsand like things that I did when I look back, I cringed or things I look backand I'm like im so dumb yeah. So I think you know being able to talkyourself through the hard times is so important because this happened so manytimes throughout Caos were like a problem occurs and I'm just like like is it all over? Is Right Right,xae Li yeah, it doest just end now you know, so I think I dot twenty minuteslater. Four hours later you get another call and like you're, on the mountaintop right O. I know I the drama of being a startup founder. It's insaneyeah, so I think also also part of that is not letting the highs get to yourhead. You know not letting your successes make you to happy. You know,I think the award exxemples a great example like when you got awards. Ithink they were really cool and theyw're really Fune, but you know wewere always reminding ourselves at the end Hay. This is just an award like toactually make an impact. We need to get this at hospitals. You know it doesn'tmatter what Lhis we are on or what it says on our resume. You know it reallyjust depends on actual impact Yep. Absolutely that's awesome and speakingabout impact. You know I think about you know. I think it's human naturethat most of us want to make a difference in the world and make theworld a better place right. But you know you hear all the time about themillennial generation and you know I don't just want a job. I saw my parentsand my grandparents go to a job that they hated and you know for decades. Idon't want to do that. I want a job where I feel like I can make adifference, and so I just think about the work that you're doing and howyou're just you know and how you're describing it like. Could you make a difference in any moreof a meaningful way than what you guys are doing right now? It's reallyincredible banks thanks, I mean to be honest. I do feel a lot of impostorsyndrome, especially when people say these kind words to me. I want to makean impact and I do want to make the world better and when people you knowgive me these kinds of compliments. The first thing I think is like am Iactually doing anything like my actually making the world better, and Iactually Makan impact here, like maybe lots of people just comlimenting me forno music, so andft that feeling of never doingenough. That feeling of now wanting to do more, no matter what that never goesaway, and so you know the real way to the real way to get rid of that feelingisn't to constantly just be seeking external validation, but also, you know,be able to just find some piece within yourself and you know see, I think,what I've, what I've been able to realize known this past year. That Ithink has been part of my Matt mature maturing. You know... an adult is that my whole life is ajourney and that, even if I can't like get highlightin the hospitals by theend of this year, like I have the next x year to push this forward, and so allthe pressure I put on myself to be like the best right now making the mostimpact right now, it doesn't even make sense. Logically, if you just look atthe whole journey of life that I am yet to embark on, so no who your whole lifeahead of you exactly n yeah, so just trying to go a little bit easier onyourself to and realize you know it's interesting to read, really cool things.Other people are doing, but you know your life is your own life and its owntiming will figure itself out yeah yeah. Absolutely I mean I think, what is itthat you guys just won the Newsweek's best infection prevention product oftwo thousand and twenty? That's huge! A thank you. Thank you. I actually didn'teven know. We won that until I saw it on our website. I was like Woa, that's really cool, who you tell thatyou're in the technology team and not the promotional team right, yeah yeah.I barely rarely get these good news come to me like intennentually. UsuallyI just find out later, I'm like. Oh that's yeah yeah well, and I think that what youdescribed is that like push pull of entrepreneurship, and it's somethingthat I think that, if it's in your GNA, you know, we have a tendency tostruggle with that, like just forever Beto, you know celebrating thesuccesses and but but also it's almost like it's not a perfectionism, but it'salmost like a the energy that propels you to continueto say, persistent and determined to whether all of these obstacles that youcontinue facing, it's like that is the fuel that ends up being key ingredientto your success, but at the same time it has to bebalanced somewhat to where we don't. We were not always living in the future inthe next in the next that we don't celebrate the present moment and whatin what's happening right now, because, like you said it's a journey, but wejust keep wanting to get to the destination right, I'm not perfect at that. I'm not reallygood at it. Actually at all M. I definitely think like work like balanceor going easier on myself. It's been something I've had to learn the pastcouple year: yeahts kind os strustful as a start, a counder because you'relike if no one's working, I'm not working, no one's working, you knowlike if I'm sleeping, no one is doing like what needs to be done, and sotaking kind of even any kind of break like to eat lunch on what talkn to afriend, I'm just like the only person I'm heading right now is myself Lik hat.You know we have to give ourselves those little allowances and I think forme at least it's just remembering that as a human being, I'm so fallible soexpecting any level. Perfection from me is impossible. Yeah, absolutelys andcontinuing to surround yourself with people that have walked this journeyand learned a lot of these lessons to be like you know, to be able tocommunicate and go yeah. I was there too, yes, and I promise you this will just be a blip on your radarin twenty years. Diright reay hope you know. I guess I don't want to repeatany mistakes. You know you know have like history always repeats itself. Ithink that's true, you know everyone hundred years we have a good,completely different population on the earth and we do the same exact thing.We did the last one hundred years, yeah really trying to get out of all of ouradvisors and all of our great partners. I want to understand all the lessonsLearne, so hat I on't have to you know: There's Anoneo Hadyeah, yes, absolutelyso, as we wrap up here, is there anything else that you would want toshare with our listeners or our viewers who are in the trenches right now,maybe at different stages, you know, maybe they have they've been able topivot to a covid solution, or maybe they havenit and theyare, stillquestioning right now, whether they even have a relevant business goingforward. Anything that you want to...

...share yeah, I would sai. The firstthing is something that I remind myself all the time is that even if Kinnosfails tomorrow, it's not necessarily a failure for me how much I've learnedover the past couple years, the people I've met. You know the the stuff I'vebeen able to do the places I've been able to go. You know those are going tobe with me forever and you know have contributed to the person I've becomeso trying to, like, I think, being able to have that kind of perspective andtake a step back and realize you know. Even if it wasn't Covid, it could havebeen something else startups like really really don't l succeed that much,and so you have to as a start a founder, be at least trick yourself into atleast being compartable with some level of what what we would call as failure,but I don't think it pol at all, because it was clearly alearningexperience that you know I got so much better at, and I think the other thingI would say is that you know during this time. I think disinfectionis super. Super Important and our CEO Jason wrote a really really great BlodPostaro website about how to properly clean surfaces and how that's relevantfor people during this time of covid nineteen, and it has nothing, do ofhKano, Hays. Nothing to do. WTH highlight I just want people to use Tisinfectins correctly, and you know I want people to feel safe. So ifanyone's also interested and learning a little bit more about how thisinfection can help, you protect yourself against going inty. You shouldcheck out our plogs on our website too. So tell our listeners and viewers yourwebsite and also if they want to get INA hold of you what's the best way toget in contact yeah. So our website is wwwkno stot us. You can meeth me and myname Katherine Akinosta us, but if you also just contact us through the formonline, I dearantee that I will see that email in one minute, so I'm veryeasy to reach. I'm always excited to talk about disinfection, whether or notit's related to highlight or not. You know, this is just a space that I'mreally interested in so now would love to connect with anyone that sees anyrelevance or thinks anything that we're doing is interesting. Thank you so much.I love your energy. I love your transparency and it's been a pleasureto have you on the show. Thank you. So much thank you for having me this isreally fun. Thank you so much for listening. I knowyou're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market, and Ivalue your time and your attention to save kind and get the latest episodeson your mobile device automatically subscribe to the show on your favoritepodtast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening,and I appreciate everyone. WHO's been sharing. The show with friends andcolleagues, see you on the next episode of coiq.

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