Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 112 · 7 months ago

SBIR funding: Everything you need to know w/ Christine E.B. Howard


The world of funding can be a bit intimidating. Where do you start? How do you increase your chances of receiving an award?

The truth is, the process is highly specific. But if you take the time to really understand your proposal and what you’re hoping to prove, you’ve already got a leg up.

Christine E.B. Howard has spent her entire career in the funding space - and when she says you need to do A, B, or C, you can bet you’re getting the right advice at the right time.

On this week’s show, Christine helps dispel some of the myths around writing and submitting proposals while also providing strategic insights on how small startups can increase their chances with securing funds.

Funding is definitely a hurdle every company will have to clear. But this episode is sure to give you the training you need to sail over that bar and increase your chances at winning an award and moving your startup into the next phase toward success.

Here are the show highlights: 

  • Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR) grants and innovation (3:20)
  • Why writing for clarity is key when submitting funding proposals (5:13)
  • This is why you need a rock solid R&D methodology (15:09)
  • You’re going to want to work out your customer discovery and value prop (16:09)
  • Is funding customer discovery a “chicken or the egg” phenomenon? (18:02)
  • What grant writers should (and should not) do (21:07) 

Guest Bio 

Christine E.B. Howard is the Founder and CEO of E.B. Howard Consulting, specializing in non-dilutive SBIR (Small Business Innovation Research) funding that helps develop, fund, and implement innovative STEM-based solutions.

Christine is a mentor at the National Science Foundation’s I-Corps and has served as president and on the board of directors for the National Association of Women’s Business Owners.

If you’d like to reach out to Christine, or want more information about E.B. Howard Consulting’s platforms or their grant writing services, you can find her and additional information on

You're listening to health innovators, a podcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adoptors who are shaping the future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Hey, health innovators, welcome back to the show. On today's episode we have a special guest. I'm sitting down with Christine Eby Howard. She is the founder and CEO of EB Consulting. Welcome to the show, Christine. Hey, thank you for having me. It is so good to have you here. So today's conversation is going to be all about SBIRE. So start off by telling us a little bit about your background and what is Eb Consulting and how are you helping the health innovation community? So our firm, Eb Howard Consulting and my background real quick. I came out of the evaluation field, which is, after graduate school, I went and worked at an evaluation firm which we measure and report on outcomes of grants. So whenever you receive a federal or state grants or's reporting requirements, did you do what you said you were going to do and with the dollars you receive? So independent reporting on outcomes. So from there, in two thousand and thirteen the opportunity to start my own consulting firm, and I did, and I first started out in the evaluation space and I was having clients come to me and say, Hey, you know, you're in the evaluation space. You've been helping write goals and objectives for these proposals. Can you help us write the proposal? Only? Okay, yeah, we'll write the proposal. And then I eventually had clients that were like, Hey, can you help us find other funding, and so that's how we got into the space, as we're helping our clients find an apply in the measure of the outcomes UN funding and our specialty, our big focus has always been in this stem space and innovation space. So anytime anyone's working on anything that's considered has a high growth of potential and it's, you know, highly innovative. We want to work with that type of client. That's that's our target audience and its Bir has been our main focus since stay one and we really like working with it. And so SBI are small business innovation research. There's also a complimentary funding line called STTR, and that's the tech transfer funding element. It's funding that does not take equity from your startup or small business. It's been around since the mid S AP probably like eighty three four in that area, with the whole purpose of spurring on innovation in the United States and propelling the US economy on. There's eleven agencies that participate in the funding and that's all coming from the small business administration, so things like the National Institute of Health, National Science Foundation, Dood so, if you can find one of the eleven...

...agencies, they have an SBIR sctr line and they different deadlines throughout the year, and I h should we work a lot with NIH and NSF, a lot with Dooda as well. But the whole purpose they have different stages of funding. So they have one called the phase one and that is about between Fiftyzero and two hundred and fifty thousand dollars worth of funding to help demonstrate feasibility or proof of concept. So if you have an idea, you're not sure it's going to work, but you need to hire people, employees to help collect data and evidence that it's going to work, that would be phase one. And then there's a phase two, which is deeper refinement with a focus on commercialization, and that could be seven hundred and fiftyzerous, upwards of a million dollars worth of funding. And then there's some agencies have a phase three as well, which is deeper commercialization and taking your product to market, depending on the agency. So yeah, Asbi are it's meant to spurn technical innovation. So within those eleven, how many of those are available to health innovators? Well, I would say broadly, potentially all of them, and here's why. So, yeah, everyone thinks and Ih, but what I would encourage everyone to do. If you're looking at, say, let's say the National Science Foundation, you may be doing something with machine in learning, even though, or ai or augmented reality. What you would want to do is look at their topic lists and they're more focused on not necessarily the industry you're in, but what you're doing. And I would say, Oh, those eleven agencies that you're looking at, look at their topics, look at the solicitation. You'd be pretty surprised to see like dud might have a component for a health innovator as well. They're always looking at ways to help improve outcomes for, you know, their employees. I would say don't rule an agency out just because it sounds you know, you know, maybe dood or department of Energy. Don't rule them out. You never know, their topics may align with what you're trying to achieve, especially with the innovation that you're working with, because there may be other applied uses for not directly in your field, but maybe in other fields as well, and so why not take that opportunity to help propel your innovation? Don't rule them out. So you have been able to help secure, I think, sixty five millions and funding that out right. Yeah, they're a little bit more, but yeah, there's some of our where we're at. Ye, and so is is. How do you do that? What is it that? What is the expert and support that you bring to the community to be able to accomplish that? Because I've been, you know, producing this show for about three years now and a good portion of our guests that come on the show are in that early...

...stage startup or merging start up phase and a lot of them are still struggling they get funding and pitching investors. Even with all of the money that's being poured into the industry, they're still struggling to get funding for a variety of reasons. What what separates what you do and how are you getting those big numbers for folks? So some of it is SBI are. We've had a reasonable amount of success with SBIRE, whether it's and a Seih dood. We come at it from a very different Lens than maybe my colleagues or AP peers within the industry. We come at it with an approach of when a client comes in the door, they're the expert. There the subject matter experts, say it's machine learning or ai or augmented rail or whatever it is, they're the expert. Our expertise is the funding line. We know what the reviewers are looking for. We know what's allowable not allowable. We understand how to put budgets together. We make sure all the forms are fill out, filled out properly, and probably the number one thing, like we see more often than not, like when clients come to us and maybe they'd voter, tried to submit and they weren't successful. Just following the instructions alone is enough to get you like if you don't follow each and every single component and instruction, you'll get disqualified right away. So things like you know fonts and margins and you know budget allowables and how you're going to spend your money and you know what you're trying proposing to do. Those sort of things. You just following the fundamentals and the instructions of the solicitation and submitting on time, if not early, if you can help it, yet you get fifty percent of of you get that fifty percent of likelihood out of the way right away. Just follow the instructures. Now it's on writing for clarity and making sure that what you're proposing to do everyone can understand it, whether or not there, you know, subject matter expert in your field or not. The reviewers have to understand what you're trying to accomplish and what you're measurable outcomes are going to be, like how are you going to demonstrate success? So we don't have to know. You know the nuts and bolts of machine learning, but we need to know, like, how are you going to measure success if you're doing it native development and training? You know your machine learning, like, how do you know when you're successful? What's the indicator that lets you know when you have to stop and you've reached an outcome, that it is going to work? So that is our lens that were coming from when it comes to like proposal preparation and, like I said, the bulk of our success has been SBIRE, but we've done stuff with the EEDA, we've had anything else surrounding economic development. We've had a, you know, pretty reasonable access rate... that in that area as well. And then, of course, outside of the federal fundings thing, space pitch competitions, you know, high dollar. We help our clients, you know, prepare for those as well. So let's talk about some of the numbers and whatever numbers you want to disclose, like for whatever entity, your agency. But what are the numbers like help our community understand what type of money we're really talking about it maybe each one of those phases in how many people actually get funding? Like you know what that looks like. I mean, are we talking about pennies? Are we talking about big dollars? Well, depends on what your understanding of big dollars as are, your definition of big dollars are. So let's just talk about an h because that's where most of your audience is going to set. So these are not our one research projects we're talking about. We're talking about smaller dollars. We're talking about somewhere for a phase one, not a clinical trial. So I want to be very careful about the language and I chooses clinical trial, phase one phase to whatever. SBI are also uses the words phase and they mean the type of funding your going for. So a phase one as Bei are and you can have human subjects involved if you want, depending on what you're doing, but it's typically going to start it around two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and if you meet certain topic criteria you can maybe have a four hundred or five hundred thousand dollars to increase your budget, depending on what you're doing and you meet certain topic priorities. A phase two may also be upwards of one point five million. An SBIRE phase two would be one point five million in that area and maybe room to exceed the budget a little bit more if you meet certain topic priority criterias. So that's the kind of money we're talking about just in the phase one and phase two in the SBIR STTR space. We're not talking five million dollar grants, and don't get me wrong, we've had experience with those, but if we're just talking about SBI, are roughly two hundred and fifty dollars. Two hundred and fifty thousand. It's for six months of work, six to eight months of work, maybe a year. So we're not talking multiple years. We're talking about a very narrow window, a small pool of cash, just to demonstrate feasibility or proof of concept, whereas your phase to you could probably do a year to eighteen months, maybe maybe even further at depending on your subtopic line that you're working in. So that's, you know, two hundred fifty thous and a phase one isn't going to go very far if you think about how far your runway has to go. Yeah, two hundred and fifty six. Actually, I think the number right knows is to fifty six or two fifty nine. I forgot with the exact no, but it's around two hundred and fifty thousand. But you're trying to get use that money, that pool of money, to pay for people in your asw two employees to do the bulk of the... to demonstrate proof of concepts, if you have to hire developers or if you have your team already engineers, maybe you have a practitioners or you know, subject matter experts that are on your team. Yeah, ought to demonstrate that feasibility and the same thing again with a phase to you're doing deeper data collection focused on commercialization. So yeah, that's and that's about the time frame for that. Now. Likelihood of success, yes, and I H is incredibly competitive, as as probably most of your viewers probably know, the likelihood of getting an sbire all your ducks in a row. Everything's organized. Has To do with your reviewers. You're going to get three reviewers, as most of them probably know, and they're going to be your peers, you know, with expertise and hopefully they understand what they're looking at. Sometimes reviewers do and they don't. But your likelihood of success, depending on your cycle round and your topic and what you're focused on, is very low. And when I'm going to say it's about seven percent to about fifteen percent, that doesn't seem like like for someone just trying this out just to see if it works. I wouldn't encouraged anyone to go for it if they don't have a team already. They are already chasing investors, venture cap and Angel Investors. I would say going through the proposal preparation process really is about planning out your innovation for the next six months to a year and going through that proposal preparation process should be almost like a strategic planning process. This type of funding shouldn't stop your innovation dead in the water. It's nice to help propel it and get it where it needs to go, but you shouldn't be using sbire as like well, if we don't get funding, we're not doing it. You should artery have, you know, other forms of nondelude of funding coming in the door and delude of capital coming in the door. And actually, if you have venture capin angel investors, getting something like this in place Helps d risk their investment as well. So there's a there's a lot of moving parts to this. I wouldn't do it unless you really you know, you have a team put together. You artery have a revenue potential stream for this in the next eighteen months or so. You have a team. Can't stress this enough, a team in place. It's not the time to start shopping for a team in order. Should have these people in place. You should artery have a really good rd plan, probably well mapped out, and then, if you can put we can put all the components together, you know, we can have a really competitive proposal and increase your likelihood of success and we can... read the instructions and make sure things get done the right way and reduce that likelihood of not getting funded. But you know it is competitive. I mean I were transparent about it. It is a competitive environment. We don't want someone chasing it just for the sake of chasing it because they're like love. You know this is going to solve all over our financial west. It's not. Doesn't work that way. So how many people were getting grants last year Ballpark, and how much month grant money was dispos good question. So I don't know the number off the top of my head, but it's a boards of you know there's several thousand people receiving grants just in the SBI R space. I know the RD budget for the US government, you know, specifically when it surrounds innovation, is several billion dollars. So you know it's not a shortage of a budget. It has to do with whether or not you can make a compelling case. Your language is clear. You know you have a strong proposal going forward and you know there's only so much work we can do at in the proposal preparation side. If you haven't thought out your rd methodology no amount of like US putting together a compelling team, you know, biosketches and budget your D isn't racks, Rack Salad. It doesn't matter what happens. If someone comes to you, they hire you to help them write the grant, but they really have maybe a week business model. Maybe their value proposition is weak and or or unclear. You know, maybe there's just some fundamental elements of their talk. Amount of going for I'll talk them right out, right away, out of going for funding. Yeah, month them to be our client, of course. Yeah, but typically what I would do is encourage them to get involved in iy core. That's like I corpse ARP and there's an eye coore associated with the National Institute of Health and there's one associated with the National Science Foundation. You can find one affiliated with any major research node area and get involved because they're going to work walk you through the paces of customer discovery, working through your value prop making sure that you know you have you know, working out what your potential revenue stream is going to be and what it looks like. I encourage anyone to get involved with that and, you know, work that out before you even start chasing grant dollars, because it's not an effective Roi to have a set the table and you know you don't have a well thought out you know, value prow and Ye, doesn't help us and if anything, then the clients up frustrated because you know, hey, we didn't get fun to you know it just I rather not. I rather be straightforward with it and just say, look at you have to have this thought out and then come to us when you're...

...ready. We can take the paperwork off your plate, we can help writing and editing and let review and take a lot of things off your plate. But certain things, as a business owner, because it is your business, you have to do it. Yeah, and you have to work out those of that, those things like your customer discovery and your value prop. Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy? I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities. Learn more at legacy DNACOM backslash kit. What are your thoughts about? Like, is this a chicken or a kind of phenomenon? Because there's this I need funding to be able to do the customer discovery and from my perspective, customer discovery like doesn't end. It's like for the life of the company. This is what we do. Obviously, there's these milestones that you reach that kind of give you some something to work with to be able to move forward in that commercialization plan. But you know, it's like I need funding to be able to build out the business plan, to be able to test the feasibility of these ideas for me to be able to say that I've got a strong business model in place, but I really have to have that before I get the funding. So, like what's your perspective on this chicken or egg phenomenon. So, you know, with I core go back to ICHORS. So some I cores will give you money to help you with customer and discovery. Yeah, and pay and and going through that process. Some of them will give more than others. You know, can be anywhere between five thousand to twenty thousand dollars. It's a reimbursement grant, so you have to do the work and show your receipts and that sort of thing. Yeah, so there's that. But when it comes to like, you know, chasing something like spire, it's good to have investors at the table already, even if it's like not, you know, maybe it's your friends and family. You've done a friends and family round and you're, you know, getting some people to put some cash in, maybe using your own financial reserves, whatever it is that you have, you know, to get the company up and off the ground. It's your own personal investment into the company. Maybe there's other funding besides SBI are that you're going after. Maybe it's push competition,...

...and I always say, you know, pitch competitions. I always reference forty three north, which is right here in my hometown you know, it's a million dollar grand prize if you win the pitch competition and for second place it's five hundredzero dollars. That can make the difference between like making twenty. And it's not our your time yet filling out an application online and making sure you have your financials together and spending an hour of your time to enter into a pitch competition. Why not? You know, you should be well versed it. You know pitching anyway, if you're going to be chasing down investors, you might as well. But like chicken and egg, you know, yes, some of it's going to have to come out of your own pocket to start, and that is the nature of starting up a business. Yeah, you could go take out a loan. I'm not a big fan of taking out loans personally or using cut it dot in any way, shape or form, but that's my personal thing. But maybe other people are more comfortable doing it. Yeah, but it's easier to get funding once you have funding coming in, and so it's yeah, you're right, it's like a chicken and egg. But some of it's going to have to be your own personal finances and you know, getting you know, friends of family doing a friends of family round. Yeah, definitely. So give some clarity on what grant writers like yourself do and what you don't do. Yeah, well, let's start out with ethics, right. Okay, I like to talk about this because it's probably the number one thing that people ask about, like when I'm having a consult call and they say, so, can do you take his success feed? You work on contingency. So any reputable grant writer who's you know, they don't have to be a member of a professional association. We are. We're a member of the Grant Professional Association and American evaluation. We're a member of a bunch of them. Whenever the associations. But you should be following a code of conduct and code of ethics as a grant professional. And you know, we say we're fee for service. You can't control the outcome of a funding opportunity. You can't make funders fund a NAPP. If we did, we would be wildly wealthy, right, because we'd be making everybody fund everything. But we're fee for service. We don't work on contingency. People ask about like whether or not will can I just pay you out of the ground? Well, no, that is not legal. There's a piece of legislation that says you can't pay for services rendered out of grant award. So we don't do that. We follow general accounting principles and I would say, look at you don't have to work with us, but anyone you choose to work with they should be upholding, you know, the laws and regulations and not putting their client at risk. Should ever, should they ever be audited or I never want to do that dance with the IRS. Those rules haven't been enforced to reason years, but that doesn't mean they won't be in...

...the future and I rather be. They're just not. So that scares people a little bit because they typically don't. Sometimes that it's an indicator to me that they don't have the money to pay for our services. That's a that's an early indicator right away to me. So when you're ready to pay for services for grant professional even if it's not us, expect to be paying anywhere between four thousand and TENZERO dollars per proposal. Anticipate that. Know that you know it's their time and their effort and making sure that the paperwork is filled out and making sure things are done the right way and that you know we're up on the latest regulations and what's allowed and not allowed and that sort of thing. So let's say so. As far as us, as what we do and don't do, of course we follow the rules. That's the first thing. But we typically work with startups. Rarely do we work with nonprofits. If they're in the economic development space. Yes, I'll work with a nonprofit, but typically I will turn a grants roots organization away or I'll I have a list of referrals of other grant writers in the space that will work work in that space and that I'm happy to make introductions. But just that's not our Jame. We don't work with nonprofits. Grant writers have specialties. Some of them work in the education space, some of them work, you know, and they after school space, or, you know, maybe they work for religious organizations. So if you're going to select a grant writer, pick one now that you know understands the industry. You know, ours is Sbi R. that's what we do all day long. You know, we don't have to be subject matter experts and machine learning or biomedical technology. We like to have a good comprehension of what's going on, but we're not subject matter experts. We rely on our clients to be the experts in their business, not us. Other things that we will do. We are happy to build a funding menu for a client, to separate service and we will go find every single piece of Nondalud of funding that's out there. Pitch competitions, accelerators, grants, government grants, not government grant, you name it, at tax incenters, you name, but will go find everything. Will Map it out for the next twelve months. Sometimes we can do two years out, depending on what's going on in the landscape, so they can make an informed decision. Go for things like forty three North or, you know, other things other than SBIRE. You know there's Incentis, tax incentus out there and depending on where they are, they may be able to leverage those. So we try. We can build funding menus for clients. Course, proposal preparation, everything from full service all the way to maybe someone just needs a critical review. They've better written the proposal but they need us to look at it and say, did you doubt your eyes, crush routines, that sort of thing. We can do that and then post award, which is the out of valuation element, reporting back to the agency. We can certainly do that as well. So we find it, we apply for and we measure...

...its. So the three things we do in the innovation space. That's great. I think that is so helpful. I'm surprised by how many health innovators I come across who really have no idea what SBIR is. Yeah, I be surprised what people like. They just even though it's a well marketed program you still there's room for better marketing and surrounding it and surprised how much information is not out there about it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. Is there anything else that in your experience with working with SBI are or just in this ecosystem? Is there anything else that you would want to share with our audience? Is They are kind of you know, we've got later stage companies we that are innovators. We've got mid market companies that are innovating or have brought innovations to market. Is there anything else that you would want to share with the community? So, yeah, so I would say don't get discouraged with a proposal that gets rejected. There's a variety of reasons why proposals get rejected and sometimes it has absolutely nothing to do with your innovation. At all and has everything to do with the cycle you went in on or the budget dollars that are left. And know that you can always resubmit your proposal. So, if you know, we've had clients come to us and say, look at we submitted by ourselves. The reviewers came back, they ripped US apart. How do we resubmit? And we are always willing to work with a client on the re submission process and give them critique and feedback on what works and what does not and why did the reviewers say this this way and how to how to resubmit. A lot of times we you know the industry expectations, specifically in the SBIUR space. You know you're going to submit, you're probably going to get rejected, but that second time through, that likelihood of success, if you can address all of the reviewers comments, your likelihood of success goes shoots up to something like sixty percent, and you have to be willing to take that rejection on the first round, because sometimes that's hard to hear. No, you weren't funded and you're like, yeah, we are really hoping to be funded. Well, you know reviewers, you know they they got their own ideas but I don't like our conversation about doctor programs. Yes, submitting members and yeah, so sometimes it's I always say look at there's no single agency, no single federal agency will prevent you from re submitting if the solicitation is still open or if it reopens in another format. And I h constantly reissues their solicitation. I think it's something like every eighteen months or every every so often. So just because it closes doesn't mean it hasn't reappeared someplace else with a different ID number and it would look for that. The exception to that that is dod. They put out a very unique...

...topic list of what they're looking for and they're looking for things pretty specific based upon the neat. Yeah, so if they're looking for something like autonomous driving vehicles with long life, betteries, you're probably never going to see that topic ever again and you might not be able to resubmit to them. So they would be the exception of the real bit just because they're so topic driven. But every other agency, you know, if the solicitation reason reappears, there's no reason you can't resubmit, make the tweeks, make the modifications, look at them. What the reviewers had to say. Every single funding opportunity when you submit a proposal, by law has to give you the scores and the reviewers comments. So if you submitted a proposal to a fund real agency and you didn't get the reviewers comments, Ping them, reach out to them, find out what's going on, and maybe it's just delay because of covid or whatever, but you're supposed to get your scores and your reviewers comments back. Use that to build a better proposal, learn from it, grow your company from it and maybe use that proposal for another proposal in a different agency. Maybe it didn't play well with an I h but maybe it plays well with an us as. So don't be discouraged just because you got a rejection. Anticipate rejections and learn from them and girl from them. So you launched. That was extremely helpful. So you launched a platform reath not too long ago. Yes, that's right, innovators, so tell tell the audio. It's a little bit about that and don't happened to it. So here. So covid happened and all of this funding was coming out for small businesses surrounding COVID, like either to recover from covid to stem the tide, to Covid, to do rd on Covid, you name it covid funding, and we started to keep in track of it in a blog post and it was there were so much. There was like three hundred opportunities at one point, if not more. I think we had a thousand in there at the height of everything and we were just updating this blog post all the time with the latest covid opportunities and it was kidding to be a bit much. I'm like, you know what, maybe we should just make a database. And I we've been wanting, because we build all these funding menus and do all this research actively anyway, uniquely for specific clients. Maybe we should take, you know, what we're researching and build a database and it won't have as much information as a funding menu, but at least it's something that we can keep going back to to help with future funding Menus and this nice cycle. So we built start up fund Hubcom and we made all of the covid funding free, so you can go in and you can find anything for a small business that's around either stemming the tide, recovery Rd, anything with covid that was in our database right away. We made that free, inaccessible to everybody. And then everything else that's for small business only. Grants, pitch competitions, accelerators,... incenters, you name it, you can have a subscription access to it. But it doesn't has some, you know, the fundamental informations like the name of the funder, the do dates, the word amounts and the link to the funder. But it's like a fraction of the information that we given a funding menu. But yeah, it's a subscription data, free levels. You've got the free for Covid, you've gotten the paid subscription for everything else and then you got like, if you want it personalized menu, then they pay. You can do if. Yeah, and that the funding menu is specific to Your Business, your industry. We reach out to funders, we have conversations with them, like hey, we've got this start up. They're doing this with, you know, Vurn, medical technology, whatever. What do we need to know? It's more than just like a web scrape or anything like that. It's a deeper dive into making sure, like, as a start up, you need to be able to decide should I go for that forty three north application? What are they expecting? Oh, they want me to move to Buffalo, New York, if I want to check from them. It's one of the things like we have to you have to know this, like yeah, you could pitch and then you win and then they're like, by the way, we need to move to Buffalo. You need to know these things right and we do this deep screening and nodding in the funding menu. So, yeah, covid is free. The COVID databasis free to access. You can sub subscribe monthly or annually and start up fund hub to get access to to, you know, the funding opportunities for small businesses, or we can build you a funding menu which is unique to you and you your needs as a business and you know that everything that's on there's for you. There's not going to be something in there for vascular surgery when you're working on like ankle PT recovery. I don't know whatever. Yeah, so, thank you so much for joining me today. I think it was an invaluable conversation. I know our community is going to get a lot out of this episode. How To folks get ahold of you if they are interested and exploring the platform or your grant writing services? Yeah, so, you see my name right here in the bottom right there there's been name. Yeah, if you can find Eb Howardcom, you can find me. So and that will get you. If you get to Eb Howardcom, you'll find our company, zv Howard Consulting. They'll be a link in our website right to start up feign Hubcom, or you can go straight to start up fun hubcom. But yeah, EB howardcom, it's US EV Howard Consulting. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you, thank you for having me. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP, like all podcast spotify and stitcher. Thank you...

...for listening and I appreciate everyone who shared the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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