Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 89 · 3 months ago

Big crisis. Little crisis. Keeping your shit together w/ Charly & Richard Jaffe


The world of startups and entrepreneurship has a historically high failure rate - and this can be a daunting statistic for many would-be market entrants.

But, what if there were a way to turn the many crises an entrepreneur faces into a catalyst for success?

Understanding where and when to stop, breathe, and analyze a crisis is difficult when you’re in the thick of it.

But it’s key skill entrepreneurs need to develop if they’re going to grow the thicker skin needed to weather the ups and downs of running a startup.

Charly and Richard Jaffe, a father-daughter team, have co-authored Turning Crisis into Success: A Serial Entrepreneur’s Lessons on Overcoming Challenge While Keeping Your Sh*t Together - a book that does just what the title states: shows you how to leverage crises.

Charming, informational, and packed full of insights and inspiration, Charly and Richard discuss their book and light a path through some of the darker moments of running a startup.

Here are the show highlights:

  • The most important thing to remember when your company is in crisis (10:21)
  • Why it’s so important for an entrepreneur to become a customer expert (12:24)
  • You can swim in your own lane and still help out others (20:09)
  • When times get a bit dark, this is how you turn the lights back on (21:09)
  • Solving tomorrow’s problems today can set you up for success (28:59 )
  • Beware of making decisions without realizing it (34:51)

Guest Bio

Charly Jaffe is many things: an advocate and adventurer, executive and emotional fitness expert, teacher, and academic.

She received her Master’s degree in Clinical and Counseling Psychology from Columbia University and co-authored Turning Crisis into Success, a best-selling book on emotional fitness, with her dad, Richard Jaffe.

Richard Jaffee is a serial entrepreneur who has experienced every level of success - and challenge - an entrepreneur can encounter.

Richard received his BS in Industrial and Labor relations from Cornell University.

If you’d like to reach out to Charly or Richard, you can reach them via their website at If you’d like to pick up their book, it’s available on Amazon or their website.

A you're listening to health, innovators,a podcast and video show about the leaders influencers and early adopterswho are shaping the future of health care on your host Doctor Roxy Movie Welcome Back Health, innovators. I amso excited about today's episode. I have some incredible special guest withme. We're kind of flipping the script a little bit and I am interviewingauthors of a book that I read about a year ago and that really was veryimpact and very inspirational, and so I'm so grateful that both Richard Jeffyand Charlie Jaffe have decided to and agree to, join me today. So welcome tothe show so good to be here. Hold you very muchfor inviting US yeah, so just to give our audience a little bit of context,just some high level a little bit about your background and what led you towriting the book turning crisis into success. But we have a little different idea:Whyn't you show trolley, but but would you like the reality or his version? My version is, I used to go out andtalk to business, school students about ten Agrede to happiness and success inbusiness and life, and I went to Cornell instead flying back on in SanDiego and other places. I said when I re write a book, so I started writing abook and I showed to Charlie and Charlie says bad. You me my help. Letme help you that's how really happen a tray cantell thateveryone else remembers it and that we have in writing. He had asked first some help in editingwhen he first started out, and I you know I don't hold back when itcomes to my dad and I've always loved writing, and so I started givingfeedback and he's like hey this is this is really helpful? Do you want to dothis together? WILL YOU CO author, this with me, and I said absolutely. It wasjust such a fun idea to get to to work and spend more time digging into hispast and and to have the excuse. I didn't know then, but to have theexcuse to ask questions like so. What were your childhood and SecuritiesElian, which was just really really really special? I can tell this- isgoing to be a very, very fun. Conversation is yeah, so so so Richard, just to kind ofcreate a little contact. Tell us a little bit about your background.Obviously you're not going to be able to go through the entire story of yourentrepreneurship journey, but just give us some of the highlights. Actually, so I went to CornellUniversity, I came out started with my familyTanis's business in one thousand nine hundred and seventy five back in the early days of frozennovelties struggled mightily. Almost we broke every single year, fortunatelyaround and turn it around. We ultimately took a public and it wastold of the Coca Cola, and then I went in to run it for two years for them andthey left- and I was thirty four and took three months off and was givenanother opportunity to start a late text, glove business. This is back onethousand nine hundred and eighty seven, eighty eight back when the age crisiswas really hitting, and so we went into that in Malaysia and Thailand andstarted that up and almost went broke. Several Times turned to the round. Wetook a public one thousand nine hundred and ninety three and then we sold itthe Kinde Clark in two thousand and I currently meant or start upentrepreneurs into a few boards, so that I can tell you that so many peoplethat are listening want to have that story. Like I struggled I struggled, Ialmost went broke, I almost went broke and then I exited and it was a success. Well it a part of the secret. Is Ihired some very smart people and I just have to be very lucky so, but it worked out very well, wasn'tsure it was going to so I decided, instead of going out to talk about it, I'd sit down and write abook to share it with more people O. I do look as well, and you certainly have-and I think one of the things that impressed me most is your transparencyand candidness about the difficulties and about the failures. I have a lot ofpeople that come on the show and you know they gloss over it either theydon't want to talk about it or you know they want to be able to just glass overit and act like Oh, it's just a lot speed bumping. You know, and I thinkthat that gives you know the rest of us in the entrepreneurship community kind of afalse sense of what this journey is really like. Well, Rahaia, to tell youI didn't have a choice, is a curse. What I mean Er Charlie wrote it sheinterviewed me, but when I would tell her what happened she said Dad. I don'tknow what want to know what happened. What did you think? What did you feel?What did you say so I had to go back thirty or forty years and recount thoseemotions. I thought I had a happy life...

...till. I started writing a book and I'lladd that I think that my dad's natural way of kind of recounting life is iswhat you see and what you're talking about in terms of like taking a bighorrible thing and turning it into a speak bump in his head, which can be agreat strength, but I think, like most things in life, things that can be astrength can also be a weakness and it's really about discernment, and soit was really special to get to say: Oh no, we're not going to like rose colorcolored glasses, just like holly look at thegood parts here, let's dig into this, because if we want to teach the hardparts of where we learn from, we don't learn from the things that went reallywell very easily. So it was really special. You know that's so true and I find thatthe longer that story is in the rear view, mirror the more comfortable wetend to become with owning that right. So if I'm in this o Shit moment rightnow and my business is about to go under, I really am very uncomfortable.Talking about it, because I think they have this positive mind set in order toget through it. I will tell you that challenges a d and the big problems arebest seen looking back, you know, but I think everything happens for a reasonand when we have bad things, what we consider bad things happen to us isbecause there are lessons alone and until we learn that they keep happeningwhen we learn them, they stop another breath things happen, so life is aseries of learning as we go forward and ternally helped me to see how much I'velearned in my life. I would also add that you- and youtouched on this Tractin, that the mind set that we need even were in crisis,is very different than the mind set that we need when we've come out of itand so part of the things that make it hard to share the hard parts when we'rein crisis is sort of our system protecting ourselves to focus on thatneeded goal. But if we CAN'T ADJUST OUR MIND set once we've exited it, then thethings that have helped us in one situation are going to tear us down ifwe can't adapt, and so the time of our book turning crisis into success,really talks about crisis after crisis after crisis and how I dealt with it,and I will tell you the one thing, one of the things that try taught me as Ilook back on. It is every single time I got to have crisis. I ask for help andI never realized that most people think you asking for help is a weakness rightessence: okay, it really is strength because, especially start upentrepreneurs. They only see a few choices and by asking for help, we seea much broader range of options that we can choose so so so charlie. I want to go back towhat you said for a minute just to make sure it's really clear for our audiencekind of paint us a picture of what is that mind, set look like in the crisismoment and then kind of transitioning to that coping mechanism, and then howdoes that mind set transition when you're out of it yeah? Absolutely so I would say:There's that really intense focus on persistence and sometimes in in crisis.We have the one goal: We're moving towards and just everything falls away,except for that goal. But they're all crises are not the same. Sometimes thekey to getting out of a crisis is being able to not just be home and on thatone option, but, as my dad was talking about asking for help being able to seemore options available, but it's almost like, if we think of the sprint right,like often times crisis, is really pushing ourselves through a superintense hard moment. So for my dad there was business crises you for me.When I was in health crises. It was simply I have to focus on surviving. Ihave to focus on getting through this and I can't focus on anything else.There's there's a very intense presence to it, but for for my life experience when Igot out of that health crisis and I kept focus on moving forward and Ididn't let myself relax or process or any of that bum. That's what I thinkvery much led to ptst was that inability to process and integrate anddeal with it, and when we look at crises and business situations, it'snot the exact one thing, but our brains don't actually recognize the differencebetween life and death. Right and you know, business and professional crises.The chemicals released in our grain are the same, maybe to different degrees.So if we get out of a business crisis and we're still kind of like in thatwound up like what's the next thing, I have to focus, I have to move if we'rein that intense space and it never relaxes that really builds up. It harmsUS personally, but also professionally, because it kind of impedes our abilityto be really creative and to kind of like open and relax and release and tosee more broadly, we can kind of sometimes keep that tunnel vision so oit's really about being able to have...

...the self awareness to stop and saywhat's important right now. Where am I at right now and as my dad highlighted?Who could I ask for help because we're just not going to have all the answers,whether no matter what type of crisis it is we're going to do better if wecan get help or get in sight or support from folks who can see more than we can? So so that's that's very wonderful, andI'm so glad that you took the time to describe that, because I think thatit's going to be so beneficial to the audience, and I want to go back to. Iread your book, I think, probably within the first or second week of thepandemic right of early early March, and- and I thought Oh, my Gosh- I betthese authors could have never predicted in a million years that thisbook would be published before a global pandemic, and so just what was thatlike for you, knowing that you had already written a book and published itaround turning crisis and s into success and then kind of seeing whatwe've all just experienced around the world for the last year a year and ahalf? Well, obviously the time nobody knewwhat was coming okay, but it was very apropos for the situation we werefacing as a world, so it was just our opportunity to try and help people andshare with them the lessons we've learned as you in fond. I will just goback for one second offer your audience and say in crisis.One of the most critical things to do is to remember that the imperfectsolution to the correct problem is moreimportant than the perfect solution to the wrong problem. Can you say that onemore time if a and powerful is really important, as we get into crisis, iswhat I said is the imperfect solution to correct problem is more important than a perfectsolution to the wrong problem. So many of us get in a crisis and we search allover but we're looking the wrong places. So it's you know, I think. As we wentout, we talk. What really is your child? What is starts on the outcoming to workyou working back? The really focus is not about being I alwyas people. Youwant to be right in to you. I be successful. Look at the outcome. Whatdo your customers want and then give it to me work you work back, absolutely so powerful. I have so manymore questions for you guys today, a toss. So when we started out how didyou feel about the book and turn to crisis to success and talking to peopleon podcast and things yeah? It was very it just felt very fulfilling, and I wasSI gratifying to have something that we created serve a larger purpose than wewould to imagine and and at the same time, recognizing its limit. So for me,working in the mental health space, a lot of the lessons that we teach arenot the right fit to be teaching. I, for example, I help run a mutual aid organizationcalled the coved grief network. So we support young adults breathed by coved.If I walked up to one of them and said turn your crisis into success, I wouldlikely get something thrown at me with good reason, rights recognizing beingable to to appreciate where this is helpful,but I think also recognizing its limits. Sometimes we get so into our own workand our own ideas that we think this is going back to the perfect solution.Perfect problem, if we think our ideas are the perfect solution to everythingwill start to apply it to places where it doesn't make sense. So I think onereally beautiful and important thing was being able to share it in a reallywide arena of folks. In business crisis and other forms of crisis, where it ishelpful, but also having the humility to say, Hey, you know in this area, itdoesn't apply here, and that doesn't mean it's not valid or it's notimportant, and I think that idea in that concept is also really importantin so much of our professional endeavors as well. We don't have to bethe perfect solution to everything, as my dad often times likes to say. Youstart ups often die of indigestion, not starvation, so recognizing our ownlimits, whether it's of our markets or of our ideas, actually makes them muchstronger. So what do you mean by that? What isthis indigestion? What I really mean is so so to stayfocused on what you're trying to do so many people drank you so many things westarted up a late text, club business in the late S, okay, and we ended uprunning twenty hours a day. Seven days a week, three D, sixty five for manymany years we develop a powerful glove. People want us to get into the condombusiness. They want to get to other health care stuff. That we getdistributed- and we just stayed in our lane because we couldn't do it enough,so many people get started. They have a good idea and then they try to twothree or four other things and they...

...don't have the band with they don'thave the expertise they trying to broaden instead of getting deep andreally truly understanding the customers. The most important thing foran entrepreneur is truly to understand that customer to become a customerexpert. Okay, I believe we get reward in direct proportion to the needs wefilm. So we need to understand the needs and fill them, which seems so obvious this and so easy,but we still really struggle with it. I mean, I think, as entrepreneurs there'sso much ego that we have to put down and lay aside in order to go. You know what I don't.Even if I thought I had all the answers- and maybe I do but to put that down andgo. It doesn't really even matter that my customer trumps, whatever I thinkand believe as long as I'm staying true to my mission, how I fulfill that isreally should be driven by the customer so much more than my own desires. If Iwant to be successful, my exactlie used to ask me what I think about productsand strategy that you don't ask me go an to the customer. I mean Wan Gretserhad a great line of Wan great he's, the best hockey player they ever lived andone of the Sports Fridays and lock room sect in wing. How can you be the besthockey player ever you don't skate fast you'll have a hard slap shot, you're,not very big. He says I don't know I just skate to where the puck is goingto be yeah yeah I this is it same thing. We can live where people need today,what a customer going to need the future and let's give it to him, so so that one of the things that comesto mind when I hear you say that is this phenomenon that I've seen happen alot with health care entrepreneurs who you know, maybe their customers wereproviders where hospital systems or medical offices and that completelyclosed down during the pandemic, and so access to their target mock market wasjust a huge barrier and then all of a sudden you had you know this needwithin communities across the world, for Ppe and- and so you know, a lot ofthem- just completely dropped their original business idea and pivoted tobeing able to supply that, and it worked well for some, but it didn'twork well for a lot just kind of talk about. You know your perspective that thinkyou kind of touched on a little bit about going in different lanes, but youknow as an entrepreneur and you're examining potential pivots. What areyou looking for when you're making that decision? Well, I'm always looking for the future.Okay, I remember crisis is just changed over a very short period of time. Okay,that means and the world's been a crisis. And so the question is what ischanging and what is our customer going to need in the future? And so, though,I love change, I see it as an opportunity to do castete anddifferently. I always like to ask my customers, one really importantquestion. I would say to them. What would you like do today that you can'tthat would have the biggest impact on your business and he hasn't just askedhis customers that he asked everyone that cause. I love to war that the realissue is. I you want to know what what to do as your customs, what they need.You might not be able to give it to him, but that's where we start getting intoso the world is changing. Telling Medicine is coming, people gateddifferent products, so for like Perdere today. What's it going to be like twoor three years from now, what are people going to need? What are theirtools they're going to use to get to where they want to go and the only wayto figure that out is to ask the customers who's your future customersand what are they going to need? And I would also add, on top of that, I thinkit's so valuable to figure out what our customers need, but also having a selfawareness and a recognition of you know. Can we meet those needs because, as youwere saying, shifting to Ppe didn't work for everyone that were, I only ahuge need. But you know, for example, we one of the examples we talked aboutin the in the book is asking a customer. You know what they needed and I don'tknow if they's went in the book or if we've just talked about it, butbasically, like my my dad, didn't, have the answer to what they needed, but heknew someone who did and was able to connect them and so that initial actiondidn't change his business. But then, after he was able to help their need,get met through someone who was better suited to it when they went to ordertheir gloves, they went to Sacan, they went to my dad's company and so beingable to recognize when we can help by connecting someone to the better fitfor their need requires some humility sometimes, andso I would just again going back to your question about about that pivot toPpe. Sometimes we're trying to do things. We're not fit to do, because wejust see it as the biggest shiniest need, but that doesn't mean that it'sthe only need that's there. So it's also being able to look and see likewhat are the key needs and where, where...

...does it make sense, or where can Ipivot to step in where there was a book? Okay, and what that really leads to iswhat we try to become. is the trusted adviser to our customers, so they canlook to us for answers not just for products. Okay, once we come theirtrusted, adviser they'll ask us for all sorts of things, and I like what you'rekind of leaning towards you know. We don't have to go too deep here, butit's kind of a network of partnerships and alliances so that we, you don'thave to be all things to all people. You have your lanes that you swim in.So that way you can be great at those things, but it doesn't mean that youcan't be a referr or you know, introducing and having other keyplayers that could deliver value to that customer, because you know youkind of get credit for that in a way and it still serves your business willcare which I was talking about. Is it was a big hospital in Pittsburgh. Okay,we trying to sell them gloves and they wouldn't you know, we couldn't sellthem, okay and they had a need- and they told me, then they need to movethe gloves from one from one Florida and not. I had enough gloves, I didn't,and so I introduced him to a buddy of mine who's on the Board of a companythat moved products around robotically and six months later. She called me up.So can you please come in here and she gave his a and we took over thehospital? That's awsome. So so, if you, if you don't mind, let's just kind ofgo deeper into these trans, transparent moments of where your darkest days your darkestmoments, we won't stay here, long o. She says the only place we learn isin pain and dark moments, and I like to kind of block it and move on yes yeah.I would, I would also add one of the reasons I enjoy. It is, I think,generally as his society, we look at our leaders and we look at folks whoare successful and we like to only see the good and to me. I think it's reallyvaluable, as you had brought up as well. So it's not just that. I love to watchmy dead scorn. Suffer t is a nice little cherry on the kid, but I do think it's really really quitactually Causey beneficial. For me, I've learned so much. You know writingthe butt dealing with Charlie. I at I imagine it's like sand worth oftherapy for eating this book together or for me both a few but Dan, get it so yeah. But let's go there. You know,as you think about you, know the different companies that you've builtin those journeys. You know talk a little bit about those moments whereyou couldn't make pay roll or you thought maybe you needed to shut thebusiness down just some of those challenges and then what was that like,emotionally and mentally? Probably the hardest moment in my business, lifecame in one thousand nine hundred and ninety we had sold the business to CocaCola as a family made lots of money. We dumped all of the money into sake skin our second company and I gota which is something probably a lot of people can relate to read your alone.Everything you have is lit one at Kapup, pouring more and more money and and inOctober thousand nine hundred and ninety I got for closure, notices andpersonal guarantees being cold and militia and just to add, I was sixmonths old. My brother was three and a half, so I shared on the hour shot a new. Wewere in trouble, but we had no money and that foreclosure Isis- and this isafter you had already sold a Coca Cola. SHOLTO CO! U Made millions of dollars,took all of them, put it into safe skin and now had nothing left wow. I had aone but a dark day and a wife and three and a half year old, a six month old,and so I explained to my wife and she says: Don't worry I'll, go back to workand I said, honey, your vental Dietitian. You can make seventy sanddollars a year. I owe ten million dollars and take care of the kids and me andlet me figure out how to get out of this okay, and that was probably one ofthe darkest moments. And that day we had a party to go to that n fortybirthday party for a friend. I don't want to go and my wife it yet my wifeis no, you promised to go your best. Friends would be there go. We went andat the party I share my best friend who was going on and this. How can you keepyour? How do you keep your emotions in tat? How do you? How do you even behere? You know- and I said, listen if I lose it all. I think I believe I havethe necessary tools to rebuilt. I don't want to okay, but as long as I have myhealth and my family, okay, all I can do is my best. Do the dead time now itwasn't easy it took years and I'd run on the beach I meditate, I I do allsorts of things, but I would truly, I...

...have the ability to separate myselfworth from my success or failures, and I think at that moment I didn't think Iwas a fair. You, though, I thought I was not the greatest okay, but but butit is just because the business was failing. I was still want to be a goodfather, a good husband and things like that, and I would also add you knowjust still shout out to my mom. Is She oh? She is such a huge short set ofsupport in all of our lives, and I think that in writing the book, what I recognizedwas their partnership and how she showed up to their partnership reallywas very, very crucial in his ability to do all these things that we'retalking about if he didn't have that rock solid super studies to support andshe advised on business to do without Duos to answer your question in thedarkest moments the problem it is, we only see the problem. We don't see thelight in internal a solution, so the answer is to focus on the positivefocus on the outcomes focus on the possibilities not what's going wrong.But what can we do right and stay in positive and keep your yourself uplisted? You know when the when e tide comes in. All the boats goup and the tide goes up and see he's naked right. So the issues you guysstay afloat long enough is the order to get any changes. The word changes Imean think about crisis. Is You look back and say? Well? Why didn't I seethat? Okay, because you can't you're limited, we are limited in our views.Yeah, a d and the last thing that I'll lie to that. It's willies and this iskind of reinforcing, but I think it's very easy to underestimate howimportant our relationships are not just his with my mom but his closefriends his family, when we have a strong network of support emotionallyand have those close relationships, whether it's a mental health crisis,whether it's a professional crisis, it's not going to solve the problem,but what happens is we have a lot of different pieces that build thatfoundation? So my dad has always meditated he's talked about you runningon the beach and having all of these small processes. It's stillexcruciating, but if he didn't have all of those networks of support and all ofthose practices, I don't think it would have been possible in the same way andand also sometimes we do need spit. It's really important to say, focus andsay positive, and sometimes we need a little break in space. Yowe say youknow what I just need to be furious. I need to scream. I need to cry. I needto let that emotion out, so that there's space for me to just focus andit's going to be different for everyone. So emotionally what fits one personisn't going to be the right model for another. So it's recognizing like whatare the supports that best suit me and what do I need and unfortunately thereis no like quick check list. That's going to be the same across the world.That's what I was going to ask for next now, ses. There are some common things and thereare some common ones, but go back. The way I got out of the crisis be. Is Iasked for help? Okay, so I actually called a young presents organizationperson in Malaysia. Okay, who helped me put me in touch with a bank, has ableto get me additional thirty days. We are replaced the bank, so the issue is,it goes back to in a crisis. We try and solve ourselves so many times, andthere are questions what's the correct problem and who can help me hey it's Dr Roxy here with a quickbreak from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves youneed to make to survive and thrive in the new Co vid economy? I want everyhealth innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy,which is why I created the Co. Vid proof, Your Business Piso Kid. Thepivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivotstrategies. It walks you through six categories. You need to examine for athree hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the sixcritical pivot lenses, as you make your way through this comprehensive kit,you'll be armed with the tools, tips and strategies you need to make sureyou can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details andopportunities, learn more at legacy: Hyphen Daco backslid. So so it sounds like you guys when Ihear you describe that it sounds like you're talking about mindst training.This kind of idea of you know business being more of a mental gymnastics thanit is about the business decisions or maybe even some of the productdecisions that were making that really are foundational. Riber goes evenfurther. I mean the real issue. Is your knowing your custom not getting intocrisis? Okay, we all get to crisis okay, but the real question is you: How do weknow stay focuse? How do we open up to...

...the world so we have to train our mind,set to stay positive, say so oriented, but the real issue is, you know thecell of the age preneurs challenges. How do you solve tomorrow'sproblems today? How do you cut them off? How do you solve them when they'resmall? How do you? How do you see around corners? So you see what's goingto happen next? Those are those are the skill that you have to develop and I'lladd an Endenda to that. I don't think it's necessarily staying positive. Ithink it's returning to positive the if we create the expectation that we justwant to say positive throughout it. That's setting ourselves up for failure,but it's recognizing like we can get p. just have meditation works, we getdistracted, we get pulled out and a really strong meditation practice isnot about always being centered, although if we're not into medication,maybe that's what we think it looks like, but if you talk to the greatestmeditation to ters across the Board, people say you it's not about notgetting pulled or distracted in not being able to pull ourselves in withmore ease or pull ourselves in with more skill, and so so yet. So it's aprocess of coming back to ourselves, yeah. So one of the things that I sayyou know when I'm working with clients that there's a whole group more than Iwould like to see or admit, but there is a whole group that are still justwaiting for things to go back to the way they were before the pandemic andI'm like guys grieve, have the funeral get there asfast as you can go through the process, so you can get to the other side ofhaving the vision of what's next because it's never going to be like itwas and the longer you take to get there and just kind of have thiswishful thinking. The more market share your competitors are stealing from you.Well, you suthul be exciting, because if things were the way they were whyyou COM PAS, would have enthing things are changing, so it's now a race. Soit's not how big you are it's how fast you are. So how can you get their firstfast and best okay and they get out of the way? WHAT'S THE ELEPHANT STARTDANCING? So I do want to just give a shout outto your wife, because I do remember that of being a common threadthroughout the entire book. I mean every time you would share thosestories. It was just like the whole family. The whole unit of you guys islike just team Jeffy and I was like wow. You know, and I can only imagine the impact that that really has on yoursuccess being able to have that champion. That raving fan that believesin you, that's, alongside of you on a day to day basis and ready to roll upher sleeves like hey. If I need to go back to work, we just go back to workis: Do we have to do I'm lucky, I'm married to an angel, so not everyonehas an opportunity, yeah yeah, so we talked a lot about persistence and- andso one of the questions that I want to ask you is both of you. Is You know atwhat point do we I mean because as entrepreneurs, it's usually that, likestubbornness, that kind of like I'm an overcomer kind of attitude andpersonality that helps us be successful in our journey? But at what point do wedetermine that? It's really like the key here is not for me just to be bull,headed and persistent in the vision that I have but really being open tofeedback that I'm getting, and I need to change something or I need to letsomething go. How do you balance that? Well, let me ask Charlie, because shealways asked me I was about to say I was like no, we you to die me. When doyou persist and when do you pit so yeah? So that's what that I was gonna say sothis absolutely no! This is my question. You don't get aflip it on me, although you tried Yeyes, so I mean that's the question that Ikept going back to it. My Dad, because I said you know it's so hard to tellhow do I have that Justin? How do I know, and so do you remember what youwould say to me or what you said around this this day? I don't remember muchI'll. Just do me all over again what I gain, I believe in persistence.Okay, I don't think it's a choice of persistence or pivot. I think youcontinue to persist in another direction, often on a pipin right, so Ithink the it's not either or so I think, as you get it's tough and I meant tosome on a depones who run out, I meant to young entrepreneurs whoactually faced running out of money. What do I do next? Okay and the issueis you know you have to see the future? You have to see what your capabilitiesare. Sometimes it's in your best interest to move on to something else.Okay, so there's no right answer, but I think, as in everything, our customershave the answers. Okay, so whether we persist to weatherly pivot is we couldprobably pivot to a new need, the...

...customer house. So if we're trying togive them something, that's not working because they don't really need it. So we really need to say: Hey you, whydo you mean? What do you need? Let find out? So it's it's much easier to fill aneed than to push a rock up hill, try and force people to buy things. Why isit so difficult for us to not only just have that in our head, but like livethat out, because I work with so many people that are like I experience theproblem. I know what the solution is. I don't need to test this business idea.I just need to fill the product, I'm going to put millions of dollars intoit, bring it to market, and then it's like nobody's buying my stuff there'sthe answer. What a sosis do they want to be right? Do they want to be six just most people want to prove theirright. Okay, N. I was asked that question. I said I want to besuccessful and I was told by my coach to why do you keep acting like you wantto be right. Also, add that you in the exampleyou're talking about what those folks are doing, is they're centeringthemselves as the most important customer and in reality, unless you'regoing to be able to buy all of your product or all of your services. Youare not the most important customer an so it's. When we talk about ego, it'sso helpful when it's harnessed and utilized well right like when I talkabout persistence, El can be very helpful and helping us persist when wejust want to quit when it's used responsibly. But if it overtakes andspills out- and we can't heart- ran it in again it can. It can kind of crushour dreams in so many ways, and so, if we center our selves and as the biggestneed and the biggest problem, then we're just going to stick with. Youknow our idea, what we need, but if we can put the ego aside of it and have alittle bit more self awareness and really focus and say who are thecustomers? As you know, my death will say until he's blue in the face, andwhat do they need, if being able to sent her on the experience of othersand not of ourselves, which can be tough when we have what feels like ourbaby, it's hard to. It can feel like killing our babies, you when we talkabout the creative process. They'LL SI kill your darlings and that's, I think,a very useful practice to get into is learning how to let go of these thingswere so attached to. By being able to recognize. I don't want to be right inmy idea of what works for me. I want to be successful in feeling this need andwhen we don't realize that, that's that this is a choice. We're makingdecisions without realizing it H, that's wonderful! You and per is notjust when you're a crisis question is entrepreneurs. When is it right to sellokay? So when do I give up my baby so to speak, or when do I yeh and that'sanother challenge, you reis, we own own, it okay, the customer does, and whenare we not the best person to to continue so, let's just kind of peelthat back a little bit, you know what are some of the things that need to beput in place early on when you know when we want to go public or when wewant to sell what do we need? How do we need to lookat that business and maybe what is that process like just kind of overall wellgoing public is a vehicle to get some to go in pupin target. As far as whenwe go to sell it, I think both of my companies, you four or five years priorselling. I try I denty several targets who might buy it. I start educatingthem. Okay, unfortunately, I had a suborn business while I was in crisisokay or in to divide, but I had here four or five years earlier by talkingto the president companies sharing why they need that product. Why it's good?To combine the companies, so we have to prepare for it. Okay, it wasn't easysaid both of was the right thing to do and at some point look even as we grewour company I questioned with her. I was the right leader. Okay, maybe I hadgrown myself and need to bring somebody else in, and that happens to successfulentrepreneurs where they outgrow their own capabilities. So the French isreally is who's the right people to want it who's the right people to ownit, and then we have to plan and go get lucky if you want so so so so you have had a lot of successright. So, even if you sold in those crisis moments, you I mean hands down.Everyone in our audience would be extremely grateful to get where youhave accomplished, and so that makes me think of legacy, which also is a termthat's in your book. Obviously, that's really important to me. That's part ofour company name, so kind of you know just talk aboutwhat does legacy mean to you and what kind of legacy is important to you before the book during the book andd.Now I'm kind of going forward.

Do you want to answer you, professor well I'll, leave the book pace to you,since it really is about your story, but to me- and I have a little bit of adifferent view of it. If I don't actually think we need to wait untilwe're successful to start to focus on our legacy, and so for me, part of thisbook has been, has been a piece of my legacy right. It's it's! It's alsopulling out my dad's legacy and knowing that you know one day got relling, youknow my kids and grandkids will be able to read it in such insecting. You knowpersonal terms, but I I o those days, and I also think it's about for you forme having having navigated a new death illness myself and being in a mentalhealth base and a round and in the Greek space, where Isee so much loss before our time. I think what leads to really beautifulfulfilled life is about thinking about mortality not in a morbid way, but as away when things feel overwhelming or when you it's easy to get distracted.How do I really follow that North Star of, what's going to make me feel moreready to go when it is my time, and so when I think about big risks, I'vetaken in my career or big risks. I've taken in generalthat the fear could have easily stopped me thinking about like at the end of mylife. What do I want to have done? How I want to upshaw up? How do I want tobe remembered, a ely helpful, and so it can be as big as creating a company ora school or a family, or as little as how do I interact with people on a dayto day basis, and I think if we are doing things that really fulfil us andleave a strong legacy in the little ways when we face those big problems,it's another source of support there, it's another, it's another thing thatcan kind of stabilize and ground us. So for me, it's about thinking both inthe very little and in the very large ways beautiful at you. You know for me a roxy as we wrote thisbook, I I have been fortunate to be successful. Okay, and it goes back to what I like to talk about is going fromsuccess. To significance as success is what we create for ourselves, yea as wecreate enough for ourselves significance as what we create forother people. So for me, my legacy really is whether it's the book,whether it's coaching entrepreneurs, whether it's a published a book ofpoetry, sharing my emotions. So it's how to go from success to significance.Okay, it's hard to go to significance when we're struggling to put a roofover a head feed our ticket ither. But we do get to the point: okay, that wehave enough. Okay and the only way to really elevate our souls and reallymake life so much more purposeful is by giving to others. Now we don't have towait. Okay, so I form a R givers game. So if you want trust, you give trust.If you want love, you give love. If you want money, you give money to fill up,philanthropically, okay, so it's you give okay and the universe providesback to us. So I love what you both are saying. Ilove how it's very different, but I love how it's kind of intertangled orintertwined with one another, to right. The idea of the choices that we maketoday, whether whether we make them intentionally or whether we make themautomatically are setting us on course, for our legacy and one of the thingsthat I think is just so important. Such a good reminder for entrepreneurs isthat we can become so obsessed with our business and with our empire and oursuccess and our millions and all of this stuff that we can. We can unintentionally leave a legacy that we're not so proudof that we didn't want to with our family and other aspects of our life,because we just got completely consumed and obsessed with our businesses. So Ithink that what you guys are talking about is kind of just this in bat, thisbalance, but then this real intentionality with the choices thatwe're making and how we're investing in our time and our attention and ourresources. But I don't want to make it sound easy. I work twenty four, seven,okay, how we go for four or six weeks to Malaysia Title I mean my kids wereyoung okay, so this that that struggle, I ha at the preneurs offamily business. The business is all consuming. So it's a balance. So thequestion is, I wouldn't talgarth to work less, but do the things that giveyou more balance, walk in nature, find something you love to do right, pain,find some ways hit golf balls whatever it is, plan sit well and yeah. We everexpress yourself, but whatever takes to...

...really Yo, be a human being in thosetimes where you just so focus go, go go. We need to find that balance, and it'snot easy. I didn't find it. I mean. I don't think I found this solution. I didn't I found it worked for me yeah.I would also add that you another way of saying these different things ispresent. What allows you to really be present whether you have five minutesfifty minutes five days, you can have a ton of time with family, but if you'renever present, it doesn't really make it count. One thing that I reallyappreciated is that when my dad, although he was really busy when wewere young when he was with us, he did find the ability to be really present,and I think that that made all the differences you know.Whatever time we have to together, how do we make that count, and my mom wasreally helpful- you when I was little and we would have Daddy Dover Dates, mydad said: okay, I can. I can take her golfing and I was like absolutely not.I doesn't want to go. Go meakin. You don't have to know theanswer so thin part of why part of it they allowed him. How allowed us todevelop a really strong relationship? was He re like? Was My mom being ableto come in and kind of coach him on how to do it and there's no shame in that? It's really about whether it's businessor family. How do we find the support that will allow us to show up as ourbest selves people like to coach me? I now an tell me what to do with myfamily. Some strong women be around and that'son, so they all, they all seem to have their ideas, so he were more moreorders. I WOR! Yes, that's funny! So, as we wrap up here, is there anythingelse that you that we haven't talked about that you would want to make surethat the audience hears from you? No, it's just you know.Entrepreneurship is such a wonderful journey. Okay, it's not meant foreverybody, okay and there's nothing wrong and trying and failing okay, you try it, you knowand you go back and do something else: it's not the end of the world. Okay,but you know, but the feat is when you get locked own PAS page when you giveup. So if you want to end something, that's fine, okay, you want to turninto something else. That's fine, but the bottom line is health care is avery slow changing industry and so keep the expectations in line and gettingout a head of it. But the real things you go back is is become customerexperts, okay, ask customers what they need and then give it to him andrealize that what they say today, they don't always know it right is HenryFord had said you. If I asked my customers what they wanted, they wouldhave seen us for faster forces right. I gave them a car, so it's being able toread between the lines of what people say they want and being able tounderstand. The needs be needed, and I would, I would also just add, on a this-is a little bit more of a tangential note, but again coming from the mentalhealth space, where I really care about folks mental mental health. When welook at entrepreneurs, the mental health rates are not great,which is not surprising right, there's a lot of too crazy. So I would add, is sometimes there'sthis false belief that I need to bury it or I need to not talk about it or Ineed to just push through it and the ability to, rather than doing that, theability to acknowledge it and it is have to be with everyone, but findingthose folks where you can say: here's what's going on chances of you have alot of entrepreneur. Friends, you're, not the only one, and even if yourfriends are not entrepreneurs, we've just gone through your were comingthrough a very intense moment in time. Everyone has been struggling almostwith mental health and so whether we're talking about challenges in business orchallenges entirely finding the places where we can talk about it. Can weleave some of that pressure, but it can also help us learn the lessons we needto move forward so being able to kind of put that egoinside heart rain it in a little bit and find those places of connection canreally transform the experience for everyone involved and there a Costonsay our book attorney crisis, the success we had a website crisis intosuccess com and that some of your entrepreneur listers, have questionsthere's a place on the website. They can send us questions and things likethat and we'll try and respond perfect. That was going to be my nextquestion. How do they find the book and how do they follow up with you? Theyvequestions you already on Amazon on Kindal and there's an audio book. Asyou told us, you listen to okay, the website is crisis into success com andyou read the book. You read that it's Your Voice for the Audio Book, so I'mvery, like I said, I'm very familiar with your voice. Great Stories. I didn't think I woulddo it and my wife had the when I was...

...debating having the perfect solution.Okay, she said: Would it be wonderful to have something for our kids,grandkids and great grand case to hear your voice in hers to her as at a tea, a beautiful? Well, thank you bothso much for agreeing to be with me today and sharing your wisdom and yourstory and your inspiration and encouragement. I know that our audienceis just going to get so much from this episode. So thank you at you. We reallyenjoyed ourselves, okay, hope to catch up in the again soon in the future. Ilucky all your entrepreneurs. Thank you so much for listening. I knowyou're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market, and Ivalue your time and attention to get the latest episodes on your mobiledevice automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast apt, likeapple podcast, potii and stitcher. Thank you for listening, and Iappreciate every one who shared the show with friends and colleagues, seeyou on the next episode of Health Innovator, a.

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