Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 89 · 7 months ago

Big crisis. Little crisis. Keeping your shit together w/ Charly & Richard Jaffe


The world of startups and entrepreneurship has a historically high failure rate - and this can be a daunting statistic for many would-be market entrants.

But, what if there were a way to turn the many crises an entrepreneur faces into a catalyst for success?

Understanding where and when to stop, breathe, and analyze a crisis is difficult when you’re in the thick of it.

But it’s key skill entrepreneurs need to develop if they’re going to grow the thicker skin needed to weather the ups and downs of running a startup.

Charly and Richard Jaffe, a father-daughter team, have co-authored Turning Crisis into Success: A Serial Entrepreneur’s Lessons on Overcoming Challenge While Keeping Your Sh*t Together - a book that does just what the title states: shows you how to leverage crises.

Charming, informational, and packed full of insights and inspiration, Charly and Richard discuss their book and light a path through some of the darker moments of running a startup.

Here are the show highlights:

  • The most important thing to remember when your company is in crisis (10:21)
  • Why it’s so important for an entrepreneur to become a customer expert (12:24)
  • You can swim in your own lane and still help out others (20:09)
  • When times get a bit dark, this is how you turn the lights back on (21:09)
  • Solving tomorrow’s problems today can set you up for success (28:59 )
  • Beware of making decisions without realizing it (34:51)

Guest Bio

Charly Jaffe is many things: an advocate and adventurer, executive and emotional fitness expert, teacher, and academic.

She received her Master’s degree in Clinical and Counseling Psychology from Columbia University and co-authored Turning Crisis into Success, a best-selling book on emotional fitness, with her dad, Richard Jaffe.

Richard Jaffee is a serial entrepreneur who has experienced every level of success - and challenge - an entrepreneur can encounter.

Richard received his BS in Industrial and Labor relations from Cornell University.

If you’d like to reach out to Charly or Richard, you can reach them via their website at If you’d like to pick up their book, it’s available on Amazon or their website.

You're listening to health innovators, apodcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adoptors who are shapingthe future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back healthinnovators. I am so excited about today's episode. I have some incrediblespecial guest with me. We're kind of flipping the script a little bit andI am interviewing authors of a book that I read about a year ago andthat really was very impactful and very inspirational, and so I'm so grateful that bothRichard Jaffe and Charlie Jaffe have decided to and agreed to join me today. So welcome to the show. So good to be here. Thank youvery much for inviting us. Yeah, so just to give our audience alittle bit of context, just some high level, a little bit about yourbackground and what led you to wrote writing the book turning crisis into success.Well, we have a little different idea. Why'd you should Charlie ahead? Well, would you like the the reality or his version? Version? Myversion is I used to go out and talk to business school students about tenand Grettis to happiness and success in business in life, and I went tocorn now instead of flying back on in San Diego and other places. Isaid when I write a book. So I started writing a book and Ishowed it to Charlie and Charlie said, Dad, younmight help. Let mehelp you. That's how really happened, that Charlie can tell you the waythat everyone else remembers it and that we have in writing. He had askedfor some help in editing when he first started out and I, you know, I don't hold back when it comes to my dad and I've always lovedwriting, and so I started giving feedback and he's like hey, this isthis is really helpful. Do you want to do this together? Will youcoauthor this with me? And I said absolutely. It was just such afun idea to get to to work and spend more time digging into his pastand to have the excuse, I didn't know then, but to have theexcuse to ask questions like so, what were your childhood and securities dig in, which was just really, really, really special. I can tell thisis going to be a very, very fun conversation. Always is. Yeah, so, so, so, Richard, just to kind of create a littlecontact, tell us a little bit about your background. Obviously you're notgoing to be able to go through the entire story of your entrepreneurship journey,but just give us some of the highlights. Um Actually. So I went toCornell University, I came out started with my family tie Nice's business inone thousand nine hundred and seventy five, back in the early days of frozennovelties. Struggled mildily, almost went broke every single year. Fortunate around theturn of the round, we ultimately took it public and then we sold ita Coca Cola and then I went into run it for two years for themand there left and I was thirty four and took three months off and wasgiven another opportunity to start a late text club business. This is back inone thousand nine hundred and eighty seven, eighty eight, back when the agecrisis was really hitting, and so we went into that in Malaysia and Thailandand started that up and almost went broke several times. Turned to the round, we took it public in nineteen ninety three and then we sold the KimbyClark in two thousand and I currently mentor start up entrepreneurs and so a fewboards so that I can tell you that so many people that are listening wantto have that story. Like I struggled. I struggled, I almost went broke, I almost went broke and then I exited and it was a success. Well, it's a part of the secret, as I hired some verysmart people and I just happen to be very lucky. So, but itworked out very well. Wasn't sure I was going to. so I decideinstead of going out to talk about it, I'd sit down and write a bookto share it with more people, and audio book as well, andyou certainly have and I think one of the things that impressed me most isyour transparency and candidness about the difficulties and about the failures. I have alot of people that come on the show and, you know, they glossover it. Either they don't want to talk about it or, you know, they want to be able to just gloss over it and act like,oh, it's just a little speed bumping, you know, and I think thatthat gives you know, the rest of us in the entrepreneurship community kindof a false sense of what this journey is really like. Rox Yea happyI have to tell you I didn't have a choice was about to say,because what I mean remember Charlie wrote it. She interviewed me, but when Iwould tell her what happened, she say, Dad, I don't knowwhat want to know what happened. What did you think, what did youfeel? What did you say? So I had to go back thirty orforty years and recount those emotions. I...

...thought I had a happy life tillI started writing a book. And I'll add that I think that my dad'snatural way of kind of recounting life is is what you see and what you'retalking about, in terms of like taking a big, horrible thing and turningit into a speak bump in his head, which can be a great strength.But I think, like most things in life, things that can bea strength can also be a weakness and it's really about discernment, and soit was really special to get to say O, no, we're not gonnalike rose colored colored glasses just like only look at the good parts here.Let's dig into this, because if we want to teach the hard parts ofwhere we learned from, we don't learn from the things that went really well, very easily. So it was really special. You know that's so true, and I find that the longer that story is in the rearview mirror,the more comfortable we tend to become with owning that right. So if I'min this Oh shit moment right now and my business is about to go under, I really am very uncomfortable talking about it because I need they have thispositive mindset in order to get through it. Would tell you that challenges and bigproblems are best seen looking back, you know, but I think everythinghappens for a reason and when we have bad things, what we consider badthings happen to us, it's because there are lessons to learn and until welearn and they keep happening, when we learn them, they stopped. Anotherbad things happened. So life is a series of learning as we go forward, and Charlie helped me to see how much I have learned in my life. I would also add that, you know, and you touched on this, roxy the mindset that we need when were in crisis is very different thanthe mindset that we need when we've come out of it, and so partof the things that make it hard to share the hard parts when we're incrisis is sort of our system protecting ourselves to focus on that needed goal.But if we can't adjust our mindset once we've exited it, then the thingsthat have helped us in one situation are going to tear us down if wecan't adapt. And so the time of our book, turning crisis into successreally talks about crisis at the crisis, at the crisis and how I dealtwith it. And I will tell you the one thing, one of thethings that Charlie taught me, as I look back on it, is everysingle time I got to have a crisis, I asked for help. And Inever realize that a most people think asking for help is a weakness rightessence. Okay, it really is. Drink because, especially start up entrepreneurs, they only see a few choices and by asking for help we see amuch broader range of options that we can choose. So so, Charlie,I want to go back to what you said for a minute just to makesure it's really clear for our audience. Kind of paint us a picture ofwhat is that mindset look like in the crisis moment and then kind of transitioningto that coping mechanism, and then how does that mindset transition when you're outof it. Yeah, absolutely so. I would say there's that really intensefocus on persistence and sometimes in in crisis we have the one goal we're movingtowards and just everything falls away except for that goal. But they're all crisisare not the same. Sometimes the key to getting out of a crisis isbeing able to not just be honed on the one option but, as mydad was talking about, asking for help, being able to see more options available. But it's almost like, if we think of the sprint right like, oftentimes crisis is really pushing ourselves through a super intense, hard moment.So for my dad there was business crisis, you're for me, when I wasin health crisis, it was simply I have to focus on surviving,I have to focus on getting through this and I can't focus on anything else. There's there's a very intense presence to it. But for for my lifeexperience, when I got out of that health crisis and I kept focus onmoving forward and I didn't let myself relax or process or any of that.For me that's what I think very much led to PTSD, was that inabilityto process and integrate and deal with it. And when we look at crises andbusiness situations, it's not the exact same thing, but our brains don'tactually recognize the difference between life and death threat and business and professional crises.The chemicals released in our brain are the same, maybe two different degrees.So if we get out of a business crisis and we're still kind of likein that wound up like what's the next thing? I have to focus,I have to move, if we're in that intense space and it never relaxes, that really builds up. It harms US personally but also professionally, becauseit kind of impedes our ability to be really creative and to kind of likeopen and relax and release and to see more broadly. We can kind ofsometimes keep that tunnel vision. So it's really about being able to have theself awareness to stop and say what's important...

...right now, where am I atright now? And, as my dad highlighted, who can I ask forhelp? Because we're just not going to have all the answers whether, nomatter what type of crisis it is, we're going to do better if wecan get help or get insight or support from folks who can see more thanwe can. So so that's that's very wonderful and I'm so glad that youtook the time to describe that because I think that that's going to be sobeneficial to the audience. And I want to go back to I read yourbook, I think probably within the first or second week of the pandemic,right of early, early March, and I thought, oh my gosh,I bet these authors could have never predicted in a million years that this bookwould be published before global pandemic. And so just what was that like foryou, knowing that you had already written a book and published it around,turning crisis and six into success and then kind of seeing what we've all justexperienced around the world for the last year, year and a half? Well,obviously the time nobody knew what was coming. Okay, but it wasvery apropos for the situation we're facing as a world. So it was justour opportunity to try and help people and share with them the lessons we've learnedas we're in fold. I will just go back for one second offer youraudience and say in crisis one of the most critical things to do is toremember that the imperfect solution to the correct problem is more important than the perfectsolution to the wrong problem. Can you say that one more time, becauseI want to rat and powerful we really this is really important as we getinto crisis. Is what I said is the imperfect solution to correct problem ismore important than a perfect solution to the wrong problem. So many of usget in a crisis and we search all over, but we're looking the wrongplaces. So it's you know, I think as we went out we talkedwhat really is your child? What is starting the outcome and work your wayback. The really focus is not about being I always get ask people,do you want to be? Right? To do you might be successful.Look at the outcome, what are your customers want, and then give itto an work your way back. Absolutely so powerful. I have so manymore questions for you guys today. Charlie, tell us. So when we startedout, how did you feel about the book and turning crisis to successand talking to people on podcasts and things? Yeah, I it was very itjust felt very fulfilling and I would say gratifying to have something that wecreated serve a larger purpose than we would imagine and and at the same timerecognizing its limits. So for me working in the mental health space, alot of the lessons that we teach are not the right fit to be teaching. I, for example, I I help run a mutual aid organization calledthe COVID Grief Network. So we support young adults briefed by COVID. IfI walked up to one of them and said turn your crisis into success,I would likely get something thrown at me, with good reason. Right, right, Chris. So recognizing being able to to appreciate where this is helpful, but I think also recognizing its limits. Sometimes we get so into our ownwork and our own ideas that we think this is going back to theperfect solution perfect problem. If we think our ideas are the perfect solution toeverything, will start to apply it to places where it doesn't make sense.So I think one really beautiful and important thing was being able to share itin a really wide arena of folks in business crisis and other forms of crisiswhere it is helpful, but also having the humility to say hey, youknow, in this area it doesn't apply here, and that doesn't mean it'snot valid or it's not important. And I think that idea, and thatconcept is also really important, and so much of our professional indebtors as well. We don't have to be the perfect solution to everything. As my dadoftentimes likes to say, you startups often die of indigestion, not starvation.So recognizing our own limits, whether it's of our markets or of our ideas, actually makes them much stronger. So what do you mean by that?What is this indigestion? Well, I really mean is so so to stayfocused on what you're trying to do. So may people trying to do somany things. We start at a late text club business in a late leastokay, and we ended up running twenty four hours day, seven days aweek, three hundred and sixty five for many, many years. We developeda power free glove. People wanted us to get into the condom business,they want to see into other healthcare stuff that we get distribute, and wejust stayed in our lane because we couldn't do it enough. So many peopleget started, they have a good idea and then they try to two orthree or four other things and they don't...

...have the band with they don't havethe expertise. They trying to broaden instead of getting deep and really truly understandingthe customers. The most important thing for an entrepreneur is truly to understand thatcustomer, to become a customer expert. Okay, I believe we get rewardand direct proportion to the needs we fill. So we need to understand and needsand fill them, which seems so obvious and so easy, but westill really struggle with it. I mean, I think as entrepreneurs there's so muchego that we have to put down and lay aside in order to go. You know what, I don't even if I thought I had all theanswers, and maybe I do, but to put that down and go.It doesn't really even matter that my customer trump's whatever I think and believe,as long as I'm staying true to my mission. How I fulfill that isis really should be driven by the customer so much more than my own desiresif I want to be successful. My exactus used to ask me what Ithink about products and strategy. That's you don't ask me. Go as acustomer. I mean when Gretzky had a great lone Wayne grets he's the besthockey player they ever lived and one of the sports ride is a locker roomsets to Wayne. How can you be the best hockey player ever? Youdon't skate fast, you'll have a hard slop shot, you're not very big. He says, I don't know, I just skate to where the puckis going to be. Yeah, yeah, I think business great. Business isthe same thing. We can lived where people need today, what acustomers going to need the future, and let's give it to so that oneof the things that comes to mind when I hear you say that is thisphenomenon that I've seen happen a lot with healthcare entrepreneurs who, you know,maybe their customers were providers where hospital systems are medical offices and that completely closeddown during the pandemic, and so access to their target market was just ahuge barrier. And then all of a sudden you had, you know,this need within communities across the world for Ppe and and so, you know, a lot of them just completely dropped their original business idea and pivoted tobeing able to supply that and it worked well for some, but it didn'twork well for a lot. Just kind of talk about, you know,your perspective. That think you kind of touched on a little bit about goingin different lanes. But you know, as an entrepreneur and you're examining potentialpivots, what are you looking for when you're making that decision? Well,I'm always looking for the future, okay, and remember, crisis is just changeover a very short period of time. Okay, that means and the world'sbeen a crisis. And so the question is, what is changing andwhat is our customer going to need in the future? And so, thoughI love change, I see it as an opportunity to do things better anddifferently. I always like to ask my customers one really important question. Iwould say to them, what would you like do today that you can't thatwould have the biggest impact on your business? He hasn't just ask his customers that. He has everyone. That is I love to learn. The realissue is, if you want to know what what to do, ask yourcustomers what they need, and you might not be able to give it tothem, but that's where we start getting into so the world is changing,telling medicine is coming. People can need different products. So, for fornurse today, what's it going to be like two or three years from now? What are people going to need. What are their tools they're going touse they get the way they want to go? And the only way tofigure it out is to ask the customers. Who's your future customers and what arethey going to need? And I would also add on top of that, I think it's so valuable to figure out what are our customers need,but also having a self awareness and a recognition of, you know, canwe meet those needs? Because, as you were saying, shifting to Ppedidn't work for everyone. That there cly a huge need. But you know, for example, we one of the examples we talked about in the inthe book is asking a customer, you know, what they needed, andI don't know if this went in the book or if we've just talked aboutit, but basically, like my my dad didn't have the answer to whatthey needed, but he knew someone who did and was able to connect them, and so that initial action didn't change his business, but then after hewas able to help their need get met through someone who is better suited toit. When they went to order their gloves, they went to safety andthey went to my dad's company. And so being able to recognize when wecan help by connecting someone to the better fit for their need requires some humilitysometimes, and so I would just again, going back to your question about aboutthat pivot to PPE. Sometimes we're trying to do things we're not fitto do because we just see it as the biggest, shiniest need. Butthat doesn't mean that it's the only need that's there. So it's also beingable to look and see, like what are the he needs and where doesit make sense or where can I pivot... step in and where there wasin a book? Okay, and what that really leads to is what wetry to become is the trusted advisor to our customers, so they can lookto us for answers, not just for products. Okay, once become thetrusted advisors, they'll ask us for all sorts of things, and I likewhat you're kind of leaning towards. You know, we don't have to gotoo deep here, but it's kind of a network of partner ships and alliances, so that what you don't have to be all things to all people.You have your lanes that you swim in, so that way you can be greatat those things, but it doesn't mean that you can't be a referor, you know, introducing and having other key players that could deliver valueto that customer, because you know, you kind of get credit for thatin a way and it's still serves your business well. Correct, which alwaystalking about as it was a big hospital in Pittsburgh. Okay, we're tryingto sell them gloves and they wouldn't you know, we couldn't sell them.Okay, and they had a need and they told me then they need tomove the gloves from one from one Florida another. I had enough gloves,AH didn't. And so I introduced into a buddy of mine who's on theBoard of a company that move products around robotically, and six months later shecalled me uposite could you please come in here, and she gave us anearly we took over the hospital. That's awesome. So so, if you, if you don't mind, let's just kind of go deeper into these transpoone, transparent moments of where your darkest days, your darkest moments. We won't stayhere long these moments. She says the only place we learn is inpain and dark moments. It learned. Only learn best, and me Ilike to kind of block it and move on. But yes, yeah,I I would also add one of the reasons I enjoy it is I thinkgenerally as a society we look at our leaders and we look at folks weresuccessful and we like to only see the good and to me I think it'sreally valuable, as you had brought up as well. So it's not justthat I love to watch my death score and sufferable is a nice little cherryon the kid. But I do think it's really, really use but it'sactually been very beneficial for me. I've learned so much. You're writing abook dealing with Charlie. I've actually learned I imagine it's like fifty thousand dollarsworth of therapy writing this book together for her, for me, both ofyou. But die as I get it. So yeah, but let's go there. You know, as you think about you know, the different companiesthat you've built and those journeys, you know talk a little bit about thosemoments where you couldn't make payroll or you thought maybe you needed to shut thebusiness down, just some of those challenges. And then what was that like?Emotionally and mentally? Probably the hardest moment in my business life came inone thousand nine hundred and ninety, we had sold the business to Cocacola.As a family made lots of money. We dumped all of the money intosafe skin, our second company, and I got a which is something probablya lot of people can relate to it. We drew a line everything you havewith dual line. That kept up or and more and more money inand in the October one thousand nine hundred and ninety, I got foreclosure noticesand personal guarantees being called in Malaysia. And, just to add, Iwas six months old. My brother was three and a half. So Ishared me out of shocked and knew we were in trouble, but we haveno money and had for closure notices. And this is after you had alreadysold a cocacola. We sold Cocola, made millions of dollars, took allof it, put it into safe skin and now had nothing left. Wow, I had a wife, a dark day. I had a wife andthree and a half year old and a six month old. And so explainto my wife and she says, don't worry, I'll go back to work. And I said, how are your Richard Dietitian, you can make seventyzeroa year. I owe ten million dollars to take care of the kids andmath, and let me figure out how to get out of this. Okay. And that was probably one of the darkest moments. And that day wehad a party to go to, that forty birthday party for a friend.I don't want to go and my wife, my wife's is no. You promisedto go. Are Your best friends would be there. Go we wentand at the party I share my best friends was going on and they howcan you keep your how do you keep your emotions intact? How do youhow do you even be here? You know, and I said, listen, if I lose it all, I think, I believe I have thenecessary tools to rebuild. I don't want to, okay, but as longas I have my health and my family, okay, all I can do ismy best through the day time. Now. It wasn't easy. Ittook years and I'd run on the beach, I'd meditate, I do all sortsof things, but I truly I...

...have the ability to separate myself worthfrom my success or failures, and I think at that moment I didn't thinkI was a fail you, though, I thought I was not the greatest, okay, but but it is just because the business was failing. Iwas still want to be a good father, a good husband and things like that. And I would also add, you know, just still shout outto my mom. Is She yo. She is such a huge short ofsupport and all of our lives and I think that in writing the book,what I recognized with their partnership and how she showed up to their partnership reallywas very, very crucial. And his ability to do all these things thatwe're talking about if he didn't have that rock solid super studies to support andshe advised on business set without a doubt. So so, to answer your question, in the darkest moments the problem is we only see the problem.We don't see the light in a tone of the solution. So the answeris to focus on the positive, focus on outcomes, focus on the possibilities, not what's going wrong, but what can we do right and staying positiveand keeping ourself up the listed. You know, when the when a tiecomes in, all the boats go up in, the tide goes out andsee WHO's naked right. So the issues, you guys, stay float long enoughin order to get any changes. The world changes. Me To thinkabout crisis is you look back and say, why didn't I see that? Okay, because you can't. Your Limited. We are limited in our views.Yeah, and the last thing that I'll live to that it's well,it just and this is kind of reinforcing, but I think it's very easy tounderestimate how important our relationships are, not just his with my mom,but his close friends, his family. When we have a strong network ofsupport emotionally and have those close relationships, whether it's a mental health crisis,whether it's a professional crisis, it's not going to solve the problem, butwhat happens is we have a lot of different pieces that build that foundation.So my dad has always meditated. He's talked about you running on the beachand having all of these small processes. It's still looks cruciating, but ifhe didn't have all of those networks of support and all of those practices,I don't think it would have been possible in the same way. And andalso sometimes we do need space. It's really important to stay focus and saypositive and sometimes we need a little break in space. Your we say,you know what, I just need to be furious. I need to scream, I need to cry, I need to let that emotion out so thatthere's space for me to just focus. And it's going to be different foreveryone. So emotionally, what fits one person isn't going to be the rightmodel for another. So it's recognizing, like, what are the supports thatbest suit me and what do I need? And unfortunately there is no like quickchecklist that's going to be the same across the world. That's what Iwas going to ask for next. Now she's there are some common things andthere are some common ones. So go back. The way I got outof that crisis is I ask for help. Okay. So I actually called ayoung press organization person in Malaysia, okay, who helped me put mein touch with a bank. It was able to get an additional thirty dayswe're replaced a bank. So the issue is it goes back to in acrisis we try and solve ourselves so many times and your own questions, what'sthe correct problem and who can help me? Hey, it's Dr Roxy here witha quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out whatmoves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy.I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy,which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivotkit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three hundredand sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivotlenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armedwith the polls, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivotwith speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities. Learn more at legacyDNACOM backslash kit. So so it sounds like you guys. When I hearyou describe it. It sounds like you're talking about mindset training, this kindof idea of, you know, business being more of a mental gymnastics,and it is about the business decisions, or maybe even some of the productdecisions that were making, that really are foundational Rabbe it goes even further.I mean the real issue is Yo, knowing your cousin, not getting intocrisis. Okay, we all get into crisis, okay, but the realquestion is, Yo, how do we stay focused? How do we openup to the world? So we have... train our mindset to stay positive, stay suice oriented. But the real issue is the CEO of entrepreneurs challenges. How do you solve tomorrow's problems today? How do you cut them off?How do you solve them when they're small? How do you how doyou see around corners so you see what's going to happen next? Those arethe those are the skill set you have to develop and I'll Adam addendum tothat. I don't think it's necessarily staying positive. I think it's returning topositive. That's if we create the expectation that we just look to say positivethroughout it, that setting ourselves up ful failure. But it's recognizing, likewe can get poked, just how meditation works. We get distracted, weget pulled out and a really strong meditation practice is not about always being centered, although if we're not into meditation, maybe that's what we think it lookslike. But if you talk to the greatest meditation to there's across the boardpeople say, you know, it's not about not getting pulled or distracted,it's not being able to pull ourselves in with more ease or pull ourselves inwith more skill, and so so yeah, so it's a process of coming backto ourselves. Yeah, so one of the things that I say,you know, when I'm working with clients that there's a whole group, morethan I would like to see or admit, but there is a whole group thatare still just waiting for things to go back to the way they werebefore the pandemic. And I'm like, guys, grieve, have the funeral, get there as fast as you can, go through the process so you canget to the other side of having the vision of what's next, becauseit's never going to be like it was. And the longer you take to getthere and just kind of have this wishful thinking, the more market shareyour competitors are stealing from you. Well, you should actually exciting, because ifthings were the way they were, why you car pets with HAP everything? These are changing. So it's now a race. So it's not howbig you are, it's how fast you are. So how can you gettheir first fast and best? Okay, and they get out of the way, what's the elephant? START DANCING? So I do want to just givea shout out to your life, because I do remember that of being acommon thread throughout the entire book. I mean every time you would share thosestories, it was just like the whole family, the whole unit of youguys is like just team Jaffee, and I was like wow, you know, and I can only imagine the impact that that really has on your success, being able to have that champion, that raving fan that believes in you, that's alongside of you on a daytoday basis and ready to roll up hersleeves, like hey, if I need to go back to work, wouldjust go back to work. Is Do we have to do? I'm lucky. I'm married to an angel. So now that everyone has an opportunity.Yeah, so we talked a lot about persistence and and so one of thequestions that I want to ask you, is both of you, is youknow, at what point do we I mean because as entrepreneurs, it's usuallythat like stubbornness, that kind of like I'm an overcomer kind of attitude andpersonality that helps us be successful in our journey. But at what point dowe determine that? It's really like the key here is not for me justto be bullheaded and persistent in the vision that I have, but really beingopen to feedback that I'm getting and I need to change something or I needto let something go. How do you balance that? Well, let meask Charlie, because she always asked me. I was about to say. Iwas like no, let me. I mean, when do you persistand when do you pivot? So that's well, those I was going tosay. So this absolutely not. This is my question. You don't geta flip it on me, although that you tried. Yeah, yeah,so, I mean that's the question that I kept going back to you withmy dad, because I said, you know, it's so hard to tell. How do I have that discerned? How do I know? And so, do you remember what you would say to me or what you said aroundthis at this stage? I don't remember much. I'll just do it allover again. Well again, I believe in persistence. Okay, so Idon't think it's a choice of persistence or pivoty. I think you continue topersist in another direction, also known as pivot. Right. So I thinkthe it's not either, or so I think. As you get and it'stough, and I I meant to some non entrepreneurs who run out. Imeant to young entrepreneurs who actually face running out of money. What do Ido next? Okay, and the issue is, Yo, you have tosee the future, you have to see what your capabilities are. Sometimes it'sin your best interest to move on to something else. Okay. So there'sno right answer, but I think, as in everything, our customers havethe answers. Okay. So whether we persist or whether we pivot is wecould probably pivot to a new need the...

...customer house. So if we're we'retrying to give them something that's not works because they don't really need it.So we really need to say hey, you know, why do you mean? What do you need? Find Out. So it's it's much easier to filla need than to push a rock up hill try and force people tobuy things. Why is it so difficult for us to not only just havethat in our head but like live that out? Because I work with somany people that are like I experience the problem. I know what the solutionis. I don't need to test this business idea. I just need tobuild the product. I'm going to put millions of dollars into it, bringit to market, and then it's like nobody's buying me stuff. Here's theUSWARDLESS I could do they want to be right or do they want to besuccess? Most people want to prove they're right. Okay, well, Ialways ask that question. I said I want to be successful and I wastold by my coach to why do you keep acting like you want to beright? Also add that you and the example you're talking about. What thosefolks are doing is they're centering themselves. Is the most important customer and inreality, unless you're going to be able to buy all of your product orall of your services, you are not the most important customer. It's whenwe talk about ego, it's so helpful when it's harnessed and utilized will right, like when I talk about persistence, you who you very helpful and helpingus persist when we just want to quit, when it's used responsibly. But ifit overtakes and spills out and we can't heart rain it in again,it can it can kind of crush our dreams in so many ways. Andso if we center ourselves and as the biggest need in the biggest problem,then we're just going to stick with your our idea what we need. Butif we can put that ego aside of it and have a little bit moreself awareness and really focus and say, who are the customers, as youknow, my death will say until he's blue in the face, and whatdo they need? It's being able to center on the experience of others andnot of ourselves, which can be tough when we have what feels like ourbaby. It's hard to it can feel like killing our babies. You're whenwe talk about the creative process, that's like kill your darlings. And that's, I think, a very useful practice to get into, is learning howto let go of these things were so attached to, by being able torecognize I don't want to be right in my idea what works for me,I want to be successful and filling this need. And when we don't realizethat that's a that this is a choice, we're making decisions without realizing it.HMM, that's that's one of them. YEA, and parody's not just whenyou're in crisis. Question is, entrepreneurs, when is it right tosell okay. So when do I give up my baby, so to speaker. When do I, you know, and that's another challenge. You realizewe own own it, okay, the customer does. And when? Arewe not the best person to to continue? So let's just kind of peel thatback a little bit. You know, what are some of the things thatneed to be put in place early on when you know when we wantto go public or when we want to sell? What do we need tohow do we need to look at that business and maybe what is that processlike? Just kind of overall. Well, going public is a vehicle to getsome to going public's out of target. As far as when we go tosell it, I think both of my companies for five years prior toselling, I try to identify several targets who might buy it. I saweducating them. Okay, unfortunately I had to sell both business while I wasin crisis, okay, or able to survive, but I had heard forfive years earlier by talking to the President Company's sharing why they need a product, why it's good to combine the companies. So we have to prepare for it. Okay, it was an easy said of both. It was theright thing to do. And at some point, look, even as wegrew our company, I question whether I was the right leader. Okay,maybe I had grown myself and needed to bring somebody else in. And thathappens to successful entrepreneurs where they outgrow their own capabilities. So the real isreally is who's the right people to want it, who's the right people toown it? And then we have to plan and get lucky if we wantto sell it. So so so you have had a lot of success.Right. So, even if you sold in those crisis momns, you,I mean hands down, everyone in our audience would be extremely grateful to getwhere you have accomplished. And so that makes me think of legacy, whichalso is a term that's in your book. Obviously that's really important to me.That's part of the our company name. So kind of, you know,just talk about what is legacy mean to you and what kind of legacyis important to you before the book, during the book and now kind ofgoing forward. Do you want to answer...

...your professionally short and well, I'llleave the the book piece to you, since it really is about your story. But to me, and I have a little bit of a different view, of it is I don't actually think we need to wait until we're successfulto start to focus on our legacy, and so for me part of thisbook has been has been, a piece of my legacy right it's it's alsopulling out my dad's legacy and knowing that, you know, one day, really, you know, my kids and grandkids will be able to read itin such and such an you know, personal terms, but also those days. I also think it's about for me, having having navigated your death illness myselfand being in a mental health space and a round and in the greefspace where I see so much loss before our time. I think what leadsto really beautiful, fulfilled life is about thinking about mortality, not in amorbid way but as a way when things feel overwhelming or when you know it'seasy to get distracted. How do I really follow that North Star of what'sgoing to make me feel more ready to go when it is my time?And so when I think about big risks I've taken in my career or bigrisks I've taken in general, that the fear could have easily stopped me thinkingabout like at the end of my life, what do I want to have done, how do I want to have showed up? How do I wantto be remembered? Are Really Helpful, and so it can be as bigas creating a company or a school or a family, or as little ashow do I interact with people on a daytoday basis. And I think ifwe are doing things that really fulfill us and leave a strong legacy in thelittle ways when we face those big problems, it's another source of support there.It's another it's another thing that can kind of stabilize and ground us.So for me it's about thinking both in the very little and in the verylarge ways. Beautiful, you'll for me a roxy as you wrote this book. I I have been fortunate to be successful, okay, and it goesback to what I like to talk about is going from success to significance.Here's success is what we create for ourselves. Yeah, as we create enough forourselves. Significance is what we create for other people. So for me, my legacy really is whether it's the book, whether it's coach entrepreneurs,whether it's I published a book of poetry sharing my emotions. So it's howto go from success to significance. Okay, it's hard to go to significance wherewe're struggling to put roof over ahead feed our credits era, but wedo get to the point, okay, that we have enough, okay,and the only way to really elevate our souls and really make life so muchmore purposeful is by giving to others. Now we don't have to wait,okay. So all a firm believer givers game. So if you want trust, you give trust, if you want love, you give love, ifyou want money, you give money to fill philanthropically. Okay. So it'syou give, okay, and the universe provides back to us. So Ilove what you both are saying. I love how it's very different, butI love how it's kind of entertangled or intertwined with one another. To write. The idea of the choices that we make today, whether whether we makethem intentionally or whether we make them automatically, are setting us on course for ourlegacy. And one of the things that I think is just so important, such a good reminder for entrepreneurs, is that we can become so obsessedwith our business and with our empire and our success and our millions and allof this stuff that we can, we can unintentionally leave a legacy that we'renot so proud of, that we didn't want to with our family and otheraspects of our life because we just got completely consumed and obsessed with our businesses. So I think that what you guys are talking about is kind of justthis em bet, this balance, but then this real intentionality with the choicesthat we're making and how we're investing our time and our attention and our resources. But I don't want to make it sound easy. I work four seven. Okay, I would go for four six weeks to Malaysia, Tyler,I mean my kids were young. Okay, so there is that that struggles entrepreneursof family business. The business is all consuming. So it's a balance. So the question is, I wouldn't tell entrepreneurs to work less, butdo the things that give you more balance. Walk in nature, find something youlove to do right, find some ways hit dolf balls, whatever itis. Find so right weems. Yeah,...

...whatever, express yourself, but withever takes to really yo be a human being in those times where youjust so focused, go, go, go. We need to find thatbalance and it's not easy. I didn't find it. I mean don't thinkI found this solution. I didn't. I found work to be yeah,I would also add that, yeah, another way of saying you know thesedifferent things is present. What allows you to really be present, whether youhave five minutes, fifty minutes, five days, you can have a tonof time with family, but if you're never present, it doesn't really makeit count. One thing that I really appreciated is that when my dad,although he was really busy when we were young, when he was with us, he did find the ability to be really present and I think that thatmade all the difference. As you know, whatever time we have together, howdo we make that count? And my mom was really helpful. You'llwhen I was little and we would have daddy daughter dates, my dad said, okay, I can, I can take her golfing and when I waslike, absolutely not. A girl doesn't want to go, go. Yeah, her mom horseback riding. Good idea. You don't have to know all theanswers. So I think part of why, part of it things allowedhim, how about us, to develop a really strong relationship, was her, like was my mom, being able to come in and kind of coachhim on how to do it and there's no shame in that. It's reallyabout, whether it's business or family, how do we find the support thatwill allow us to show up as our best selves? People like to coachme. Yeah, could tell me what to do with my family. Somestrong women Bah around and that's on. So they're all they're all seen downtheir ideas. So wondering where the more more orders I would get. That'sfunny. So, as we wrap up here, is there anything else thatyou that we haven't talked about that you would want to make sure that theaudience hears from you now? It's just you know, entrepreneurship is such awonderful journey. Okay, it's not meant for everybody, okay, and there'snothing wrong in trying and failing. Okay, you try it, you know,and you go back and do something else. It's not the end ofthe world, okay, but you know, but defeat is when you get knockeddown, phase, phase when you give up. So if you wantto and something, that's fine. Okay, you want to turn into something else, that's fine, but the bottom line is healthcare is a very slowchanging industry, and so keep the expectations in line and getting out ahead ofit. But the real thing you go back is, is become customer experts. Okay, ask customers what they need and then give it to me andrealize that what they say today, they don't always know it right. IsHenry Ford had said. You know, if I asked my customers what theywanted, they would have seen ask for faster horses. Right, give thema car. So it's being able to read between the lines of what peoplesay they want and being able to understand the needs beneath it. And Iwould I would also just add on a this is a little bit more ofa tangential note, but again coming from the mental health space where I reallycare about folks, mental mental health. When we look at entrepreneurs, themental health rates are not great, which is not surprising, right. There'sa lot of study crazy. But so I would add is sometimes there's thisfalse belief that I need to bury it or I need to not talk aboutit or I'd need to just push through it, and the ability to ratherthan doing that, the ability to acknowledge it, and it does have tobe with everyone, but finding those folks where you can say here's what's goingon. Chances are if you have a lot of entrepreneur friends. You're notthe only one, and even if your friends are not entrepreneurs. We've justgone through your we're coming through a very intense moment in time. Everyone hasbeen struggling almost with mental health, and so, whether we're talking about challengesin business or challenges internally, finding the places where we can talk about itcan relieve some of that pressure, but it can also help us learn thelessons we need to move forward. So being able to kind of put thatego aside, Harn't rain it in a little bit, and find those placesof connection can really transform the experience for everyone involved. There axos. Yousay our book turning crisis is the success. We have a website crisis into Successcomand if some of your entrepreneur listens have questions, there's a place onthe website they can send us questions and things like that and will try andrespond perfect that was going to be my next question. How did they findthe book and how did they follow up with you? They have questions?You already on Amazon, on Kendall, and there's an audiobook, as youtold as you listen to okay, and the website is crisis into Successcom andyou read the book. You read that it's your voice for the audiobook.So I'm very like I said, I'm very familiar with your voice, greatstories. I didn't think I would do it and my wife had to whenI was debating having the perfect solution.

Okay, she said wouldn't be wonderfulto have something for our kids, grandkids and great grandkids to hear Your Voiceand hearst our wagon. That's what drag and see. Let me see usback to you, Linasy. Right. Yeah, that's awesome, beautiful.Well, thank you both so much for agreeing to be with me today andsharing your wisdom and your story and your inspiration and encouragement. I know thatour audience is just going to get so much from this episode. So thankyou. Thank you for our we really enjoyed ourselves. Okay, well,we hope to catch up with the again soon in the future. The luckto all your entrepreneurs. Thank you so much for listening. I know you'rebusy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your timeand attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribeto the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who shared the show with friendsand colleagues. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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