Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 89 · 1 year ago

Big crisis. Little crisis. Keeping your shit together w/ Charly & Richard Jaffe


The world of startups and entrepreneurship has a historically high failure rate - and this can be a daunting statistic for many would-be market entrants.

But, what if there were a way to turn the many crises an entrepreneur faces into a catalyst for success?

Understanding where and when to stop, breathe, and analyze a crisis is difficult when you’re in the thick of it.

But it’s key skill entrepreneurs need to develop if they’re going to grow the thicker skin needed to weather the ups and downs of running a startup.

Charly and Richard Jaffe, a father-daughter team, have co-authored Turning Crisis into Success: A Serial Entrepreneur’s Lessons on Overcoming Challenge While Keeping Your Sh*t Together - a book that does just what the title states: shows you how to leverage crises.

Charming, informational, and packed full of insights and inspiration, Charly and Richard discuss their book and light a path through some of the darker moments of running a startup.

Here are the show highlights:

  • The most important thing to remember when your company is in crisis (10:21)
  • Why it’s so important for an entrepreneur to become a customer expert (12:24)
  • You can swim in your own lane and still help out others (20:09)
  • When times get a bit dark, this is how you turn the lights back on (21:09)
  • Solving tomorrow’s problems today can set you up for success (28:59 )
  • Beware of making decisions without realizing it (34:51)

Guest Bio

Charly Jaffe is many things: an advocate and adventurer, executive and emotional fitness expert, teacher, and academic.

She received her Master’s degree in Clinical and Counseling Psychology from Columbia University and co-authored Turning Crisis into Success, a best-selling book on emotional fitness, with her dad, Richard Jaffe.

Richard Jaffee is a serial entrepreneur who has experienced every level of success - and challenge - an entrepreneur can encounter.

Richard received his BS in Industrial and Labor relations from Cornell University.

If you’d like to reach out to Charly or Richard, you can reach them via their website at If you’d like to pick up their book, it’s available on Amazon or their website.

You're listening to health innovators, a podcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adoptors who are shaping the future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back health innovators. I am so excited about today's episode. I have some incredible special guest with me. We're kind of flipping the script a little bit and I am interviewing authors of a book that I read about a year ago and that really was very impactful and very inspirational, and so I'm so grateful that both Richard Jaffe and Charlie Jaffe have decided to and agreed to join me today. So welcome to the show. So good to be here. Thank you very much for inviting us. Yeah, so just to give our audience a little bit of context, just some high level, a little bit about your background and what led you to wrote writing the book turning crisis into success. Well, we have a little different idea. Why'd you should Charlie ahead? Well, would you like the the reality or his version? Version? My version is I used to go out and talk to business school students about ten and Grettis to happiness and success in business in life, and I went to corn now instead of flying back on in San Diego and other places. I said when I write a book. So I started writing a book and I showed it to Charlie and Charlie said, Dad, younmight help. Let me help you. That's how really happened, that Charlie can tell you the way that everyone else remembers it and that we have in writing. He had asked for some help in editing when he first started out and I, you know, I don't hold back when it comes to my dad and I've always loved writing, and so I started giving feedback and he's like hey, this is this is really helpful. Do you want to do this together? Will you coauthor this with me? And I said absolutely. It was just such a fun idea to get to to work and spend more time digging into his past and to have the excuse, I didn't know then, but to have the excuse to ask questions like so, what were your childhood and securities dig in, which was just really, really, really special. I can tell this is going to be a very, very fun conversation. Always is. Yeah, so, so, so, Richard, just to kind of create a little contact, tell us a little bit about your background. Obviously you're not going to be able to go through the entire story of your entrepreneurship journey, but just give us some of the highlights. Um Actually. So I went to Cornell University, I came out started with my family tie Nice's business in one thousand nine hundred and seventy five, back in the early days of frozen novelties. Struggled mildily, almost went broke every single year. Fortunate around the turn of the round, we ultimately took it public and then we sold it a Coca Cola and then I went into run it for two years for them and there left and I was thirty four and took three months off and was given another opportunity to start a late text club business. This is back in one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven, eighty eight, back when the age crisis was really hitting, and so we went into that in Malaysia and Thailand and started that up and almost went broke several times. Turned to the round, we took it public in nineteen ninety three and then we sold the Kimby Clark in two thousand and I currently mentor start up entrepreneurs and so a few boards so that I can tell you that so many people that are listening want to have that story. Like I struggled. I struggled, I almost went broke, I almost went broke and then I exited and it was a success. Well, it's a part of the secret, as I hired some very smart people and I just happen to be very lucky. So, but it worked out very well. Wasn't sure I was going to. so I decide instead of going out to talk about it, I'd sit down and write a book to share it with more people, and audio book as well, and you certainly have and I think one of the things that impressed me most is your transparency and candidness about the difficulties and about the failures. I have a lot of people that come on the show and, you know, they gloss over it. Either they don't want to talk about it or, you know, they want to be able to just gloss over it and act like, oh, it's just a little speed bumping, you know, and I think that that gives you know, the rest of us in the entrepreneurship community kind of a false sense of what this journey is really like. Rox Yea happy I have to tell you I didn't have a choice was about to say, because what I mean remember Charlie wrote it. She interviewed me, but when I would tell her what happened, she say, Dad, I don't know what want to know what happened. What did you think, what did you feel? What did you say? So I had to go back thirty or forty years and recount those emotions. I...

...thought I had a happy life till I started writing a book. And I'll add that I think that my dad's natural way of kind of recounting life is is what you see and what you're talking about, in terms of like taking a big, horrible thing and turning it into a speak bump in his head, which can be a great strength. But I think, like most things in life, things that can be a strength can also be a weakness and it's really about discernment, and so it was really special to get to say O, no, we're not gonna like rose colored colored glasses just like only look at the good parts here. Let's dig into this, because if we want to teach the hard parts of where we learned from, we don't learn from the things that went really well, very easily. So it was really special. You know that's so true, and I find that the longer that story is in the rearview mirror, the more comfortable we tend to become with owning that right. So if I'm in this Oh shit moment right now and my business is about to go under, I really am very uncomfortable talking about it because I need they have this positive mindset in order to get through it. Would tell you that challenges and big problems are best seen looking back, you know, but I think everything happens for a reason and when we have bad things, what we consider bad things happen to us, it's because there are lessons to learn and until we learn and they keep happening, when we learn them, they stopped. Another bad things happened. So life is a series of learning as we go forward, and Charlie helped me to see how much I have learned in my life. I would also add that, you know, and you touched on this, roxy the mindset that we need when were in crisis is very different than the mindset that we need when we've come out of it, and so part of the things that make it hard to share the hard parts when we're in crisis is sort of our system protecting ourselves to focus on that needed goal. But if we can't adjust our mindset once we've exited it, then the things that have helped us in one situation are going to tear us down if we can't adapt. And so the time of our book, turning crisis into success really talks about crisis at the crisis, at the crisis and how I dealt with it. And I will tell you the one thing, one of the things that Charlie taught me, as I look back on it, is every single time I got to have a crisis, I asked for help. And I never realize that a most people think asking for help is a weakness right essence. Okay, it really is. Drink because, especially start up entrepreneurs, they only see a few choices and by asking for help we see a much broader range of options that we can choose. So so, Charlie, I want to go back to what you said for a minute just to make sure it's really clear for our audience. Kind of paint us a picture of what is that mindset look like in the crisis moment and then kind of transitioning to that coping mechanism, and then how does that mindset transition when you're out of it. Yeah, absolutely so. I would say there's that really intense focus on persistence and sometimes in in crisis we have the one goal we're moving towards and just everything falls away except for that goal. But they're all crisis are not the same. Sometimes the key to getting out of a crisis is being able to not just be honed on the one option but, as my dad was talking about, asking for help, being able to see more options available. But it's almost like, if we think of the sprint right like, oftentimes crisis is really pushing ourselves through a super intense, hard moment. So for my dad there was business crisis, you're for me, when I was in health crisis, it was simply I have to focus on surviving, I have to focus on getting through this and I can't focus on anything else. There's there's a very intense presence to it. But for for my life experience, when I got out of that health crisis and I kept focus on moving forward and I didn't let myself relax or process or any of that. For me that's what I think very much led to PTSD, was that inability to process and integrate and deal with it. And when we look at crises and business situations, it's not the exact same thing, but our brains don't actually recognize the difference between life and death threat and business and professional crises. The chemicals released in our brain are the same, maybe two different degrees. So if we get out of a business crisis and we're still kind of like in that wound up like what's the next thing? I have to focus, I have to move, if we're in that intense space and it never relaxes, that really builds up. It harms US personally but also professionally, because it kind of impedes our ability to be really creative and to kind of like open and relax and release and to see more broadly. We can kind of sometimes keep that tunnel vision. So it's really about being able to have the self awareness to stop and say what's important...

...right now, where am I at right now? And, as my dad highlighted, who can I ask for help? Because we're just not going to have all the answers whether, no matter what type of crisis it is, we're going to do better if we can get help or get insight or support from folks who can see more than we can. So so that's that's very wonderful and I'm so glad that you took the time to describe that because I think that that's going to be so beneficial to the audience. And I want to go back to I read your book, I think probably within the first or second week of the pandemic, right of early, early March, and I thought, oh my gosh, I bet these authors could have never predicted in a million years that this book would be published before global pandemic. And so just what was that like for you, knowing that you had already written a book and published it around, turning crisis and six into success and then kind of seeing what we've all just experienced around the world for the last year, year and a half? Well, obviously the time nobody knew what was coming. Okay, but it was very apropos for the situation we're facing as a world. So it was just our opportunity to try and help people and share with them the lessons we've learned as we're in fold. I will just go back for one second offer your audience and say in crisis one of the most critical things to do is to remember that the imperfect solution to the correct problem is more important than the perfect solution to the wrong problem. Can you say that one more time, because I want to rat and powerful we really this is really important as we get into crisis. Is what I said is the imperfect solution to correct problem is more important than a perfect solution to the wrong problem. So many of us get in a crisis and we search all over, but we're looking the wrong places. So it's you know, I think as we went out we talked what really is your child? What is starting the outcome and work your way back. The really focus is not about being I always get ask people, do you want to be? Right? To do you might be successful. Look at the outcome, what are your customers want, and then give it to an work your way back. Absolutely so powerful. I have so many more questions for you guys today. Charlie, tell us. So when we started out, how did you feel about the book and turning crisis to success and talking to people on podcasts and things? Yeah, I it was very it just felt very fulfilling and I would say gratifying to have something that we created serve a larger purpose than we would imagine and and at the same time recognizing its limits. So for me working in the mental health space, a lot of the lessons that we teach are not the right fit to be teaching. I, for example, I I help run a mutual aid organization called the COVID Grief Network. So we support young adults briefed by COVID. If I walked up to one of them and said turn your crisis into success, I would likely get something thrown at me, with good reason. Right, right, Chris. So recognizing being able to to appreciate where this is helpful, but I think also recognizing its limits. Sometimes we get so into our own work and our own ideas that we think this is going back to the perfect solution perfect problem. If we think our ideas are the perfect solution to everything, will start to apply it to places where it doesn't make sense. So I think one really beautiful and important thing was being able to share it in a really wide arena of folks in business crisis and other forms of crisis where it is helpful, but also having the humility to say hey, you know, in this area it doesn't apply here, and that doesn't mean it's not valid or it's not important. And I think that idea, and that concept is also really important, and so much of our professional indebtors as well. We don't have to be the perfect solution to everything. As my dad oftentimes likes to say, you startups often die of indigestion, not starvation. So recognizing our own limits, whether it's of our markets or of our ideas, actually makes them much stronger. So what do you mean by that? What is this indigestion? Well, I really mean is so so to stay focused on what you're trying to do. So may people trying to do so many things. We start at a late text club business in a late least okay, and we ended up running twenty four hours day, seven days a week, three hundred and sixty five for many, many years. We developed a power free glove. People wanted us to get into the condom business, they want to see into other healthcare stuff that we get distribute, and we just stayed in our lane because we couldn't do it enough. So many people get started, they have a good idea and then they try to two or three or four other things and they don't...

...have the band with they don't have the expertise. They trying to broaden instead of getting deep and really truly understanding the customers. The most important thing for an entrepreneur is truly to understand that customer, to become a customer expert. Okay, I believe we get reward and direct proportion to the needs we fill. So we need to understand and needs and fill them, which seems so obvious and so easy, but we still really struggle with it. I mean, I think as entrepreneurs there's so much ego that we have to put down and lay aside in order to go. You know what, I don't even if I thought I had all the answers, and maybe I do, but to put that down and go. It doesn't really even matter that my customer trump's whatever I think and believe, as long as I'm staying true to my mission. How I fulfill that is is really should be driven by the customer so much more than my own desires if I want to be successful. My exactus used to ask me what I think about products and strategy. That's you don't ask me. Go as a customer. I mean when Gretzky had a great lone Wayne grets he's the best hockey player they ever lived and one of the sports ride is a locker room sets to Wayne. How can you be the best hockey player ever? You don't skate fast, you'll have a hard slop shot, you're not very big. He says, I don't know, I just skate to where the puck is going to be. Yeah, yeah, I think business great. Business is the same thing. We can lived where people need today, what a customers going to need the future, and let's give it to so that one of the things that comes to mind when I hear you say that is this phenomenon that I've seen happen a lot with healthcare entrepreneurs who, you know, maybe their customers were providers where hospital systems are medical offices and that completely closed down during the pandemic, and so access to their target market was just a huge barrier. And then all of a sudden you had, you know, this need within communities across the world for Ppe and and so, you know, a lot of them just completely dropped their original business idea and pivoted to being able to supply that and it worked well for some, but it didn't work well for a lot. Just kind of talk about, you know, your perspective. That think you kind of touched on a little bit about going in different lanes. But you know, as an entrepreneur and you're examining potential pivots, what are you looking for when you're making that decision? Well, I'm always looking for the future, okay, and remember, crisis is just change over a very short period of time. Okay, that means and the world's been a crisis. And so the question is, what is changing and what is our customer going to need in the future? And so, though I love change, I see it as an opportunity to do things better and differently. I always like to ask my customers one really important question. I would say to them, what would you like do today that you can't that would have the biggest impact on your business? He hasn't just ask his customers that. He has everyone. That is I love to learn. The real issue is, if you want to know what what to do, ask your customers what they need, and you might not be able to give it to them, but that's where we start getting into so the world is changing, telling medicine is coming. People can need different products. So, for for nurse today, what's it going to be like two or three years from now? What are people going to need. What are their tools they're going to use they get the way they want to go? And the only way to figure it out is to ask the customers. Who's your future customers and what are they going to need? And I would also add on top of that, I think it's so valuable to figure out what are our customers need, but also having a self awareness and a recognition of, you know, can we meet those needs? Because, as you were saying, shifting to Ppe didn't work for everyone. That there cly a huge need. But you know, for example, we one of the examples we talked about in the in the book is asking a customer, you know, what they needed, and I don't know if this went in the book or if we've just talked about it, but basically, like my my dad didn't have the answer to what they needed, but he knew someone who did and was able to connect them, and so that initial action didn't change his business, but then after he was able to help their need get met through someone who is better suited to it. When they went to order their gloves, they went to safety and they went to my dad's company. And so being able to recognize when we can help by connecting someone to the better fit for their need requires some humility sometimes, and so I would just again, going back to your question about about that pivot to PPE. Sometimes we're trying to do things we're not fit to do because we just see it as the biggest, shiniest need. But that doesn't mean that it's the only need that's there. So it's also being able to look and see, like what are the he needs and where does it make sense or where can I pivot... step in and where there was in a book? Okay, and what that really leads to is what we try to become is the trusted advisor to our customers, so they can look to us for answers, not just for products. Okay, once become the trusted advisors, they'll ask us for all sorts of things, and I like what you're kind of leaning towards. You know, we don't have to go too deep here, but it's kind of a network of partner ships and alliances, so that what you don't have to be all things to all people. You have your lanes that you swim in, so that way you can be great at those things, but it doesn't mean that you can't be a refer or, you know, introducing and having other key players that could deliver value to that customer, because you know, you kind of get credit for that in a way and it's still serves your business well. Correct, which always talking about as it was a big hospital in Pittsburgh. Okay, we're trying to sell them gloves and they wouldn't you know, we couldn't sell them. Okay, and they had a need and they told me then they need to move the gloves from one from one Florida another. I had enough gloves, AH didn't. And so I introduced into a buddy of mine who's on the Board of a company that move products around robotically, and six months later she called me uposite could you please come in here, and she gave us an early we took over the hospital. That's awesome. So so, if you, if you don't mind, let's just kind of go deeper into these transpoone, transparent moments of where your darkest days, your darkest moments. We won't stay here long these moments. She says the only place we learn is in pain and dark moments. It learned. Only learn best, and me I like to kind of block it and move on. But yes, yeah, I I would also add one of the reasons I enjoy it is I think generally as a society we look at our leaders and we look at folks were successful and we like to only see the good and to me I think it's really valuable, as you had brought up as well. So it's not just that I love to watch my death score and sufferable is a nice little cherry on the kid. But I do think it's really, really use but it's actually been very beneficial for me. I've learned so much. You're writing a book dealing with Charlie. I've actually learned I imagine it's like fifty thousand dollars worth of therapy writing this book together for her, for me, both of you. But die as I get it. So yeah, but let's go there. You know, as you think about you know, the different companies that you've built and those journeys, you know talk a little bit about those moments where you couldn't make payroll or you thought maybe you needed to shut the business down, just some of those challenges. And then what was that like? Emotionally and mentally? Probably the hardest moment in my business life came in one thousand nine hundred and ninety, we had sold the business to Cocacola. As a family made lots of money. We dumped all of the money into safe skin, our second company, and I got a which is something probably a lot of people can relate to it. We drew a line everything you have with dual line. That kept up or and more and more money in and in the October one thousand nine hundred and ninety, I got foreclosure notices and personal guarantees being called in Malaysia. And, just to add, I was six months old. My brother was three and a half. So I shared me out of shocked and knew we were in trouble, but we have no money and had for closure notices. And this is after you had already sold a cocacola. We sold Cocola, made millions of dollars, took all of it, put it into safe skin and now had nothing left. Wow, I had a wife, a dark day. I had a wife and three and a half year old and a six month old. And so explain to my wife and she says, don't worry, I'll go back to work. And I said, how are your Richard Dietitian, you can make seventyzero a year. I owe ten million dollars to take care of the kids and math, and let me figure out how to get out of this. Okay. And that was probably one of the darkest moments. And that day we had a party to go to, that forty birthday party for a friend. I don't want to go and my wife, my wife's is no. You promised to go. Are Your best friends would be there. Go we went and at the party I share my best friends was going on and they how can you keep your how do you keep your emotions intact? How do you how do you even be here? You know, and I said, listen, if I lose it all, I think, I believe I have the necessary tools to rebuild. I don't want to, okay, but as long as I have my health and my family, okay, all I can do is my best through the day time. Now. It wasn't easy. It took years and I'd run on the beach, I'd meditate, I do all sorts of things, but I truly I...

...have the ability to separate myself worth from my success or failures, and I think at that moment I didn't think I was a fail you, though, I thought I was not the greatest, okay, but but it is just because the business was failing. I was still want to be a good father, a good husband and things like that. And I would also add, you know, just still shout out to my mom. Is She yo. She is such a huge short of support and all of our lives and I think that in writing the book, what I recognized with their partnership and how she showed up to their partnership really was very, very crucial. And his ability to do all these things that we're talking about if he didn't have that rock solid super studies to support and she advised on business set without a doubt. So so, to answer your question, in the darkest moments the problem is we only see the problem. We don't see the light in a tone of the solution. So the answer is to focus on the positive, focus on outcomes, focus on the possibilities, not what's going wrong, but what can we do right and staying positive and keeping ourself up the listed. You know, when the when a tie comes in, all the boats go up in, the tide goes out and see WHO's naked right. So the issues, you guys, stay float long enough in order to get any changes. The world changes. Me To think about crisis is you look back and say, why didn't I see that? Okay, because you can't. Your Limited. We are limited in our views. Yeah, and the last thing that I'll live to that it's well, it just and this is kind of reinforcing, but I think it's very easy to underestimate how important our relationships are, not just his with my mom, but his close friends, his family. When we have a strong network of support emotionally and have those close relationships, whether it's a mental health crisis, whether it's a professional crisis, it's not going to solve the problem, but what happens is we have a lot of different pieces that build that foundation. So my dad has always meditated. He's talked about you running on the beach and having all of these small processes. It's still looks cruciating, but if he didn't have all of those networks of support and all of those practices, I don't think it would have been possible in the same way. And and also sometimes we do need space. It's really important to stay focus and say positive and sometimes we need a little break in space. Your we say, you know what, I just need to be furious. I need to scream, I need to cry, I need to let that emotion out so that there's space for me to just focus. And it's going to be different for everyone. So emotionally, what fits one person isn't going to be the right model for another. So it's recognizing, like, what are the supports that best suit me and what do I need? And unfortunately there is no like quick checklist that's going to be the same across the world. That's what I was going to ask for next. Now she's there are some common things and there are some common ones. So go back. The way I got out of that crisis is I ask for help. Okay. So I actually called a young press organization person in Malaysia, okay, who helped me put me in touch with a bank. It was able to get an additional thirty days we're replaced a bank. So the issue is it goes back to in a crisis we try and solve ourselves so many times and your own questions, what's the correct problem and who can help me? Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy. I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the polls, tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities. Learn more at legacy DNACOM backslash kit. So so it sounds like you guys. When I hear you describe it. It sounds like you're talking about mindset training, this kind of idea of, you know, business being more of a mental gymnastics, and it is about the business decisions, or maybe even some of the product decisions that were making, that really are foundational Rabbe it goes even further. I mean the real issue is Yo, knowing your cousin, not getting into crisis. Okay, we all get into crisis, okay, but the real question is, Yo, how do we stay focused? How do we open up to the world? So we have... train our mindset to stay positive, stay suice oriented. But the real issue is the CEO of entrepreneurs challenges. How do you solve tomorrow's problems today? How do you cut them off? How do you solve them when they're small? How do you how do you see around corners so you see what's going to happen next? Those are the those are the skill set you have to develop and I'll Adam addendum to that. I don't think it's necessarily staying positive. I think it's returning to positive. That's if we create the expectation that we just look to say positive throughout it, that setting ourselves up ful failure. But it's recognizing, like we can get poked, just how meditation works. We get distracted, we get pulled out and a really strong meditation practice is not about always being centered, although if we're not into meditation, maybe that's what we think it looks like. But if you talk to the greatest meditation to there's across the board people say, you know, it's not about not getting pulled or distracted, it's not being able to pull ourselves in with more ease or pull ourselves in with more skill, and so so yeah, so it's a process of coming back to ourselves. Yeah, so one of the things that I say, you know, when I'm working with clients that there's a whole group, more than I would like to see or admit, but there is a whole group that are still just waiting for things to go back to the way they were before the pandemic. And I'm like, guys, grieve, have the funeral, get there as fast as you can, go through the process so you can get to the other side of having the vision of what's next, because it's never going to be like it was. And the longer you take to get there and just kind of have this wishful thinking, the more market share your competitors are stealing from you. Well, you should actually exciting, because if things were the way they were, why you car pets with HAP everything? These are changing. So it's now a race. So it's not how big you are, it's how fast you are. So how can you get their first fast and best? Okay, and they get out of the way, what's the elephant? START DANCING? So I do want to just give a shout out to your life, because I do remember that of being a common thread throughout the entire book. I mean every time you would share those stories, it was just like the whole family, the whole unit of you guys is like just team Jaffee, and I was like wow, you know, and I can only imagine the impact that that really has on your success, being able to have that champion, that raving fan that believes in you, that's alongside of you on a daytoday basis and ready to roll up her sleeves, like hey, if I need to go back to work, would just go back to work. Is Do we have to do? I'm lucky. I'm married to an angel. So now that everyone has an opportunity. Yeah, so we talked a lot about persistence and and so one of the questions that I want to ask you, is both of you, is you know, at what point do we I mean because as entrepreneurs, it's usually that like stubbornness, that kind of like I'm an overcomer kind of attitude and personality that helps us be successful in our journey. But at what point do we determine that? It's really like the key here is not for me just to be bullheaded and persistent in the vision that I have, but really being open to feedback that I'm getting and I need to change something or I need to let something go. How do you balance that? Well, let me ask Charlie, because she always asked me. I was about to say. I was like no, let me. I mean, when do you persist and when do you pivot? So that's well, those I was going to say. So this absolutely not. This is my question. You don't get a flip it on me, although that you tried. Yeah, yeah, so, I mean that's the question that I kept going back to you with my dad, because I said, you know, it's so hard to tell. How do I have that discerned? How do I know? And so, do you remember what you would say to me or what you said around this at this stage? I don't remember much. I'll just do it all over again. Well again, I believe in persistence. Okay, so I don't think it's a choice of persistence or pivoty. I think you continue to persist in another direction, also known as pivot. Right. So I think the it's not either, or so I think. As you get and it's tough, and I I meant to some non entrepreneurs who run out. I meant to young entrepreneurs who actually face running out of money. What do I do next? Okay, and the issue is, Yo, you have to see the future, you have to see what your capabilities are. Sometimes it's in your best interest to move on to something else. Okay. So there's no right answer, but I think, as in everything, our customers have the answers. Okay. So whether we persist or whether we pivot is we could probably pivot to a new need the...

...customer house. So if we're we're trying to give them something that's not works because they don't really need it. So we really need to say hey, you know, why do you mean? What do you need? Find Out. So it's it's much easier to fill a need than to push a rock up hill try and force people to buy things. Why is it so difficult for us to not only just have that in our head but like live that out? Because I work with so many people that are like I experience the problem. I know what the solution is. I don't need to test this business idea. I just need to build the product. I'm going to put millions of dollars into it, bring it to market, and then it's like nobody's buying me stuff. Here's the USWARDLESS I could do they want to be right or do they want to be success? Most people want to prove they're right. Okay, well, I always ask that question. I said I want to be successful and I was told by my coach to why do you keep acting like you want to be right? Also add that you and the example you're talking about. What those folks are doing is they're centering themselves. Is the most important customer and in reality, unless you're going to be able to buy all of your product or all of your services, you are not the most important customer. It's when we talk about ego, it's so helpful when it's harnessed and utilized will right, like when I talk about persistence, you who you very helpful and helping us persist when we just want to quit, when it's used responsibly. But if it overtakes and spills out and we can't heart rain it in again, it can it can kind of crush our dreams in so many ways. And so if we center ourselves and as the biggest need in the biggest problem, then we're just going to stick with your our idea what we need. But if we can put that ego aside of it and have a little bit more self awareness and really focus and say, who are the customers, as you know, my death will say until he's blue in the face, and what do they need? It's being able to center on the experience of others and not of ourselves, which can be tough when we have what feels like our baby. It's hard to it can feel like killing our babies. You're when we talk about the creative process, that's like kill your darlings. And that's, I think, a very useful practice to get into, is learning how to let go of these things were so attached to, by being able to recognize I don't want to be right in my idea what works for me, I want to be successful and filling this need. And when we don't realize that that's a that this is a choice, we're making decisions without realizing it. HMM, that's that's one of them. YEA, and parody's not just when you're in crisis. Question is, entrepreneurs, when is it right to sell okay. So when do I give up my baby, so to speaker. When do I, you know, and that's another challenge. You realize we own own it, okay, the customer does. And when? Are we not the best person to to continue? So let's just kind of peel that back a little bit. You know, what are some of the things that need to be put in place early on when you know when we want to go public or when we want to sell? What do we need to how do we need to look at that business and maybe what is that process like? Just kind of overall. Well, going public is a vehicle to get some to going public's out of target. As far as when we go to sell it, I think both of my companies for five years prior to selling, I try to identify several targets who might buy it. I saw educating them. Okay, unfortunately I had to sell both business while I was in crisis, okay, or able to survive, but I had heard for five years earlier by talking to the President Company's sharing why they need a product, why it's good to combine the companies. So we have to prepare for it. Okay, it was an easy said of both. It was the right thing to do. And at some point, look, even as we grew our company, I question whether I was the right leader. Okay, maybe I had grown myself and needed to bring somebody else in. And that happens to successful entrepreneurs where they outgrow their own capabilities. So the real is really is who's the right people to want it, who's the right people to own it? And then we have to plan and get lucky if we want to sell it. So so so you have had a lot of success. Right. So, even if you sold in those crisis momns, you, I mean hands down, everyone in our audience would be extremely grateful to get where you have accomplished. And so that makes me think of legacy, which also is a term that's in your book. Obviously that's really important to me. That's part of the our company name. So kind of, you know, just talk about what is legacy mean to you and what kind of legacy is important to you before the book, during the book and now kind of going forward. Do you want to answer...

...your professionally short and well, I'll leave the the book piece to you, since it really is about your story. But to me, and I have a little bit of a different view, of it is I don't actually think we need to wait until we're successful to start to focus on our legacy, and so for me part of this book has been has been, a piece of my legacy right it's it's also pulling out my dad's legacy and knowing that, you know, one day, really, you know, my kids and grandkids will be able to read it in such and such an you know, personal terms, but also those days. I also think it's about for me, having having navigated your death illness myself and being in a mental health space and a round and in the greef space where I see so much loss before our time. I think what leads to really beautiful, fulfilled life is about thinking about mortality, not in a morbid way but as a way when things feel overwhelming or when you know it's easy to get distracted. How do I really follow that North Star of what's going to make me feel more ready to go when it is my time? And so when I think about big risks I've taken in my career or big risks I've taken in general, that the fear could have easily stopped me thinking about like at the end of my life, what do I want to have done, how do I want to have showed up? How do I want to be remembered? Are Really Helpful, and so it can be as big as creating a company or a school or a family, or as little as how do I interact with people on a daytoday basis. And I think if we are doing things that really fulfill us and leave a strong legacy in the little ways when we face those big problems, it's another source of support there. It's another it's another thing that can kind of stabilize and ground us. So for me it's about thinking both in the very little and in the very large ways. Beautiful, you'll for me a roxy as you wrote this book. I I have been fortunate to be successful, okay, and it goes back to what I like to talk about is going from success to significance. Here's success is what we create for ourselves. Yeah, as we create enough for ourselves. Significance is what we create for other people. So for me, my legacy really is whether it's the book, whether it's coach entrepreneurs, whether it's I published a book of poetry sharing my emotions. So it's how to go from success to significance. Okay, it's hard to go to significance where we're struggling to put roof over ahead feed our credits era, but we do get to the point, okay, that we have enough, okay, and the only way to really elevate our souls and really make life so much more purposeful is by giving to others. Now we don't have to wait, okay. So all a firm believer givers game. So if you want trust, you give trust, if you want love, you give love, if you want money, you give money to fill philanthropically. Okay. So it's you give, okay, and the universe provides back to us. So I love what you both are saying. I love how it's very different, but I love how it's kind of entertangled or intertwined with one another. To write. The idea of the choices that we make today, whether whether we make them intentionally or whether we make them automatically, are setting us on course for our legacy. And one of the things that I think is just so important, such a good reminder for entrepreneurs, is that we can become so obsessed with our business and with our empire and our success and our millions and all of this stuff that we can, we can unintentionally leave a legacy that we're not so proud of, that we didn't want to with our family and other aspects of our life because we just got completely consumed and obsessed with our businesses. So I think that what you guys are talking about is kind of just this em bet, this balance, but then this real intentionality with the choices that we're making and how we're investing our time and our attention and our resources. But I don't want to make it sound easy. I work four seven. Okay, I would go for four six weeks to Malaysia, Tyler, I mean my kids were young. Okay, so there is that that struggles entrepreneurs of family business. The business is all consuming. So it's a balance. So the question is, I wouldn't tell entrepreneurs to work less, but do the things that give you more balance. Walk in nature, find something you love to do right, find some ways hit dolf balls, whatever it is. Find so right weems. Yeah,...

...whatever, express yourself, but with ever takes to really yo be a human being in those times where you just so focused, go, go, go. We need to find that balance and it's not easy. I didn't find it. I mean don't think I found this solution. I didn't. I found work to be yeah, I would also add that, yeah, another way of saying you know these different things is present. What allows you to really be present, whether you have five minutes, fifty minutes, five days, you can have a ton of time with family, but if you're never present, it doesn't really make it count. One thing that I really appreciated is that when my dad, although he was really busy when we were young, when he was with us, he did find the ability to be really present and I think that that made all the difference. As you know, whatever time we have together, how do we make that count? And my mom was really helpful. You'll when I was little and we would have daddy daughter dates, my dad said, okay, I can, I can take her golfing and when I was like, absolutely not. A girl doesn't want to go, go. Yeah, her mom horseback riding. Good idea. You don't have to know all the answers. So I think part of why, part of it things allowed him, how about us, to develop a really strong relationship, was her, like was my mom, being able to come in and kind of coach him on how to do it and there's no shame in that. It's really about, whether it's business or family, how do we find the support that will allow us to show up as our best selves? People like to coach me. Yeah, could tell me what to do with my family. Some strong women Bah around and that's on. So they're all they're all seen down their ideas. So wondering where the more more orders I would get. That's funny. So, as we wrap up here, is there anything else that you that we haven't talked about that you would want to make sure that the audience hears from you now? It's just you know, entrepreneurship is such a wonderful journey. Okay, it's not meant for everybody, okay, and there's nothing wrong in trying and failing. Okay, you try it, you know, and you go back and do something else. It's not the end of the world, okay, but you know, but defeat is when you get knocked down, phase, phase when you give up. So if you want to and something, that's fine. Okay, you want to turn into something else, that's fine, but the bottom line is healthcare is a very slow changing industry, and so keep the expectations in line and getting out ahead of it. But the real thing you go back is, is become customer experts. Okay, ask customers what they need and then give it to me and realize that what they say today, they don't always know it right. Is Henry Ford had said. You know, if I asked my customers what they wanted, they would have seen ask for faster horses. Right, give them a car. So it's being able to read between the lines of what people say they want and being able to understand the needs beneath it. And I would I would also just add on a this is a little bit more of a tangential note, but again coming from the mental health space where I really care about folks, mental mental health. When we look at entrepreneurs, the mental health rates are not great, which is not surprising, right. There's a lot of study crazy. But so I would add is sometimes there's this false belief that I need to bury it or I need to not talk about it or I'd need to just push through it, and the ability to rather than doing that, the ability to acknowledge it, and it does have to be with everyone, but finding those folks where you can say here's what's going on. Chances are if you have a lot of entrepreneur friends. You're not the only one, and even if your friends are not entrepreneurs. We've just gone through your we're coming through a very intense moment in time. Everyone has been struggling almost with mental health, and so, whether we're talking about challenges in business or challenges internally, finding the places where we can talk about it can relieve some of that pressure, but it can also help us learn the lessons we need to move forward. So being able to kind of put that ego aside, Harn't rain it in a little bit, and find those places of connection can really transform the experience for everyone involved. There axos. You say our book turning crisis is the success. We have a website crisis into Successcom and if some of your entrepreneur listens have questions, there's a place on the website they can send us questions and things like that and will try and respond perfect that was going to be my next question. How did they find the book and how did they follow up with you? They have questions? You already on Amazon, on Kendall, and there's an audiobook, as you told as you listen to okay, and the website is crisis into Successcom and you read the book. You read that it's your voice for the audiobook. So I'm very like I said, I'm very familiar with your voice, great stories. I didn't think I would do it and my wife had to when I was debating having the perfect solution.

Okay, she said wouldn't be wonderful to have something for our kids, grandkids and great grandkids to hear Your Voice and hearst our wagon. That's what drag and see. Let me see us back to you, Linasy. Right. Yeah, that's awesome, beautiful. Well, thank you both so much for agreeing to be with me today and sharing your wisdom and your story and your inspiration and encouragement. I know that our audience is just going to get so much from this episode. So thank you. Thank you for our we really enjoyed ourselves. Okay, well, we hope to catch up with the again soon in the future. The luck to all your entrepreneurs. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who shared the show with friends and colleagues. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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