Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 3 years ago

Bridging the Gap Between Academia and Entrepreneurship in Evidence-Based Digital Health w/Dr. Kate Wolin


Many healthcare innovators build amazing technology but struggle with adoption and engagement. What can healthcare entrepreneurs learn from academia to solve this problem? Why is it so important to understand the business models in healthcare innovation?


On today’s show, we’re talking to Dr. Kate Wolin, the CEO and co-founder of ScaleDown, the one-of-a-kind digital behavioral health innovation that successfully eliminated the “graveyard” drawer of digital fitness devices, attracted around 145,000 users to the platform, and was acquired by Anthem Health - Blue Shield in November 2018.


Dr. Wolin shares the lessons she’s learned while switching lanes from academia to entrepreneurship, and the power of starting with an underserved demographic.

3 Things We Learned


How to cut through the noise and competition in healthcare innovation

The best way to rise above all the noise and competition in healthcare innovation is evidence and published work. This de-risks the investment for potential partners which makes it easier to go to market.


The unique strategy Dr. Wolin and her team implemented

ScaleDown managed to reach people no one else was reaching and people who hadn’t had success with existing models. Nothing makes a stronger business case than starting from the underserved, hard-to-reach markets. It helps the idea of going to the easy-to-reach markets make more sense to investors and partners.


The value of building relationships with academics

As a healthcare innovator, you don’t have to become a world-class scientist, you just need to find one and work with them. Invest in building relationships with academics. They can offer the insight and evidence you need to make commercialization easier.


95% of innovations brought to market fail to reach an adequate level of customer acceptance and profitability, but there are steps innovators can take to increase the chances of success. Working with scientists to build evidence for your innovation is key, along with paying attention to the innovations that have found success in academic science, and understanding the business model and product-market fit in healthcare. Ultimately, it’s all about reducing risk for investors and perfecting the user experience around ease of use.

Guest Bio-

Dr. Kate Wolin is a behavioral scientist, epidemiologist, and entrepreneur. She is the CEO and co-founder of Scale Down, a digital behavioral health innovation. Go to to connect with her and follow @DrKateWolin on Twitter.

Welcome to Coiq and first of its kind video program about health innovators, early adopters and influencers and their stories about writing the roller coaster of healthcare innovation. I'm your host, Dr Roxy, founder of Legacy DNA marketing group, and it's time to raise our COIQ. We're back with another interesting episode with Dr Kate Rolling. She is the CEO and Co founder of scale down, a digital behavioral health innovation that has successfully eliminated all of the fitness devices in the graveyard drawer and was successfully sold by eight too anthem and in November of last year. Welcome to the show, Kate. Thank you. So I would like to have you start off by just given the audience a little bit of background information about you and what you do to just kick us off. Sure. So I started my career as an academic medical center researcher and so wrote Miah grants and got funded to run studies largely looking at the roll of lifestyle behaviors and chronic disease prevention and chronic disease management. So when I started in the field a long time ago and I had a lot less gray hair. We did that through facetoface encounters through group workshops them. We gave people binders full of papers. We would supplement that with telephonic support and over times, as digital became more prominent and more accessible, started moving into using digital strategy. So obviously, early on that could be just an expansion of the role of the telephonic coaching evolving into using the web, into using the telephone and a more scalable way through I y are, and then obviously into text messaging and the opportunity to use APPS. And the thing that I noticed over time in that space was that a lot of these interventions that had been developed by some of my favorite colleagues and peers in the field was that these programs would be found to work in a clinical trial, they would get published and that was kind of the end of the rope. And I found that really personally just satisfying in my own work, but also sort of just frustrating as a scientist, because our goal is to create things that work but that then move on and really help people. And so start a kind of hanging more attention to the scalability and realize that sort of these these worlds of the commercial, particular on digital and academic were existing sort of in parallel and disconnected from each other and wanted to find a way to bridge them. And so a much, much longer story made short, some of my favorite colleagues had just finished a clinical trial of an intervention for weight management that they thought had scalability potential and I thought had a normous scalability potential, and so we started incubating that ideas that nights and weekends project of you know, how would this concept look if it existed in the real world, and sort of really from the ground up, built that over some very late nights and very tired people, and ultimately that became the scale down. And so when it reached a point of really being a viable business, I left my academic job and became the CEO of the company and grew it over the the intervening few years until we met the wonderful folks at the up them and and they took it off our hands. So so what was it like for you writing this crazy rat ride of roller coaster healthcare invation? You know, the interesting thing about it is there are so many you know as much as I sort of now. So my...

...time drawing distinctions between academia and and the commercial world. A lot of the skills that I learned as an academic really served me well in the commercial world, you know. So as an academic we're always doing what we call a pilot yeah, the world would call an MVP, and we're doing a lot lot of testing and iterating through that, both through quantitative and qualitative research. So, you know, doing focus groups and having conversations with people in that community, because we do a lot of Communitas research in my world. You know, it's usability testing and and so, you know, those elements felt very familiar to me. You know, I think one of the things maybe people don't realize about being an academic researcher is that, you know, I had to fund ninety eight percent of my salary and all of my staff through grants. So I spent a lot of time pastilying how and tryanling whole bunch of other people that the work I wanted to do was worth funding. And in is an academic that. You know, that's the pure review process at Niah or other funding agencies. And again you're just like, you know, as a startup founder who's going to raise capital, which we didn't end up doing. It scale down, but had a lot of conversations around it. You know, you're trying to convince someone that your idea, you know, balances that space between innovative enough that you know you are doing something novel and can own some sort of space, and not so outlandish and risky that you have, you know, another you're unlikely to be successful, whatever successful means, and so, you know, those things were very familiar to me, I would say. You know. That said, there are some cushions and some infrastructures and supports that exists in academia that were not as a startup founder. Right. So I was ajar and finance and janitor and everything else, and that was you know, it's sort of you get really good as an academic at being outstanding at your specialty. That's how you succeed. You have to get really comfortable as a startup founder with being good enough at a lot of things, but back of what your secret sauce and specialty is. So that, I think, was one of the interesting, really interesting parts of the journey for me. HMM, I don't think I realized that you were raising your own money through grants to support your initiatives. Yeah, so most, most of what you read in your you literature is anih funded in you or, you know, equivalent agencies in Canada and Europe. You know, and it just should depends on which institution you're at, but you know the extent to which someone is supported by the institution versus supported by grants, and there's a why range. It had, how much teaching responsibilities you have, and that's sort of sture. But most research that comes out of academia is is funded through a peer review process and then it also has to go through another pure review process to get published in the literature. So you know, it really is a level of scrutiny that that I place a high level of value on and really is why I think we should pay attention to the innovations that have been found to be successful in in academic science as really being a great way to point industry in directions that are worth going in right because, you know, as an example, we've been just last weeks at the society behavioral medicine, which is the place for folks who do behavior change research to to convene, you know, and just you know thousands of you know, abstracts and sessions and information of people testing questions and in being able to answer...

...some of the very questions that I know entrepreneurs are struggling with in their product development and value proposition life cycle. You know, these answers are out there. In a lot of cases, you know, people have spent thirty years understanding, you know, what works for weight loss and self monitoring and M for strategies. There's a lot to be learned. You don't have to go reinvent the wheel and there's lots still left to be right. And then that's yet the flip side of it is you know academic interventions are often done and that you know, a couple hundred people for a large study, and one of the things that sound and the scale down experience was, you know, there are things that you don't find out don't work in your product or no work how you intended, until you start getting thousands of users. And so that's been fun for you to now go back and I had the really great experience of talking to some remarkable doctoral students a couple weeks ago about, you know, some of those things that you only learn when you start working at scale and tradeoffs you have to make right because you know sometimes you have to you know, you have to go with the eighty percent of the effect because it allows you, to me, to reach, you know, ted x number of people and right voices. Hmm, I think you unknowingly just endorsed my peer reviewed article on what strategies health innovators use to commercialize their innovation. Thank you for that one. So what were you thinking as you were contemplating the decision between staying in academia, which sounds like where you were for most of your career, to moving into this world of entrepreneurship? What was running through your mind? scalability and impact really, you know, it's it was a total unknown for me. You know, I literally my first job out of college was working on research trials and and I just find it work at an academic medical center. I never really thought I would do anything else. But I had had the really unique and wonderful experience of getting invited to go on a national television show and talk about the research that links ob city and cancer risk. And you know, it was really excited to you know, as a scientist, right you want to get good information out there and I can write all the papers in the world, but a national television show lands in the living room of a lot of people and getting information was a really wonderful opportunity and it was really excited about it. And doctor shows not too bad. It depends we ask these days, but yeah, you know. That said, you know, the oppers platform then rite, the opportunity to present good science to a lot of pianos, a wonderful one and I, you know, nothing but lovely things to say about that opportunity. And and of course, you know, my parents were thrilled about this right because for the first time they could actually explain to people what I did in some way, shape or form. And so the episode air and my parents had friends over for like a viewing part. Oh, that's awesome, lovely, and you know, I mean it's really a gift to have parents who are so supportive. And you know, my dad called me afterwards and said I didn't know ob city caused cancer, and it was, you know, sort of this moment of dad like this is what I've been doing for fs like a decade, you know, and so it's this this moment of Um. You know, I would into this field because I wanted to help people and make them healthy and have an impact. And am I having the impact I want to have and thought I was having. If my own dad doesn't know that there's a link between the two things. I spend most of my time thinking about right, you know, and so it really sort of pushed me to...

...think about how, you know, really that fundamental tradeoff. I could spend my career doing these studies to refine this question in groups of a couple hundred people, and at the time I left academia, I just wrapped up being at this lead investigator at one of the sites of a multisite art clinical trial that was examining the role of weight loss in preventing breast cancer recurrence and mortality in women who'd been diagnosed with breast cancer. Like I can't there are many wonderful and worthy causes and questions to ask, and that certainly ranked very high for me right because preventing a cancer recurrence and preventing death are fundamentally what I got and feel to do. And, you know, and a sort of okay, like you, we had, you know, several hundred people go through this study and benefit from our intervention, which was effective and added to the literature. But that's kind of like as big as it gets, and so you do that a handful of times over your career and and that's great and and it. You know it had that been my entire career, I certainly, you know, would not have felt like I didn't add something in my time on earth. But, you know, the opportunity to then turn around and say, okay, you know, at scale down we reached, you know, tens of thousands, you know, actually well over a Hundredzero people, you know, in our very short time of operating. You know that is just impacted a different scale. And those people, you know, they may not have been, you know, facing a cancer recurrence. And there's just sort of everything is about sort of how do I wake up each day and feel like the thing I'm going to go work on matters in the world? That's that's the great thing about healthcare entrepreneurs is that that's the question they wake up everyday wanting to answer, is how do I do something that matters in this world? Uh Huh. Yeah, so, as you thought about what entrepreneurship was going to be like, right when you're at that that cross road, right, what didn't I know? How he what did you think it was going to be? And then how is it different? I thought it was going to be a failure, right, because I'm I'm dating scientists as well, and, you know, I looked at the numbers. I'm like, well, both startups fail and healthcare has really hard and I just sort of was like well, you know. And so I didn't want to do it for the longest time. Right, I sort of knew I wanted to do something and I was struggling with it and there would come home and I would just be like I'm so frustrated, like is what I'm doing matters? And my husband, who, thank God it's not in healthcare, was like just go do something right, and family comes from a long line of folks who are risk takers in entrepreneurs and and you know, in the he was just sort of like just go do it already. And but what if it fails, right, like just, you know, just I I mean really, it's funny to be an entrepreneur and say that you're not a risk taker, but I'm not. I'm very, very calculated in the risks I take. You know, ultimately he was. He'd his response was just like so what, you know, if it fails, you'll do something else, like so what stopped talking about it, go do it, and I really am like a very action, we're into person, and so I don't think I ever could have done it without without his that had to make a big difference. Yeah, I mean it's just unconstut Fort. And then the other side of it is, you know, I launched scale down with too wonderful, remarkable, outstanding colleagues and so, you know, I knew I was going into this with people who really got the science and got what we were trying to do. And one of my two cofinders had previously launched a start up, had a very successful accent and and is just you know, he drove drove that whole strategy and execution and so he knew what he was doing. So even though I was going to be the person day today,...

I knew I had this great combination of people who understood at you for Yourship, and people understood the science behind me, and so that made taking the leap easier. Uh Huh. Yeah, I mean you're so right. You know, commercialize in an innovation and in the industry is really difficult. It's even more so in healthcare. There's this stat that really wrapped all of my doctoral work that ninety five percent of innovations brought to market fail to reach an adequate level of customer acceptance or profitability. And and so really that's actually the whole premise for this show is, is to being able to share stories like yours, to be able to help more people be successful. So so how did you get the odds part, I think about it is, you know what, you know, we had had plenty of conversations along the way of talking to people in healthcare space. We were in weight management, right, so population is overweight or OBE's. It is probably easier to list conditions that obesity is not related to than to list the Merriatre it is. And I remember sitting down with an executive at a payer and, you know, and in its person was just, you know, lovely in being, you know, kindest can be, and very transparent, right. And Uh, that in our entrepreneurs sometimes the hardest thing to get is a know, you're just kind of left dangling. Yeah, and this person who said to me like look, Kate, like obesity is a huge problem. You know, no pun intended. When we get it, we believe it, but you know, it is not the problem we're trying to solve. Right now, like the thing that is driving our financial situation is readmissions. Yeah, you know, and then I had, you know, similar conversation with someone else who said, you know, you know what look like. We know this is a problem for our members, but the ROI for weight loss in the you know, economic models. And thank you, Eric Finkel seen, for doing that work, because it's really great that we have these academics who do this great science. Yeah, you know, happens at around twenty four months, maybe later twenty thirty six, and the average time that someone is in our plan is eighteen to twenty four months. So we're not going to realize the ROI that comes from investing in weight loss. So while we know it's a problem, like, it's not going to drive enough on the financial side for us. And like that's the really, like interesting things that people are. People are out there solving real problems. It's not entrepreneurs, but figuring out like the business model and the product market fit is the hard part, and that's like, you know, that to me is interesting tension and having come out of academia, is academics don't have to think about that. They don't have to figure out WHO's going to pay for this and where does it fit within like the landscape? And it's actually fascinating how many people don't. You really don't understand the business models that are in healthcare, like their business are right most people that if you're not getting your your healthcare coverage from medicat or Medicare, you're getting it from a self insured employer in most cases. And you know people are no, no, I have, I have blue cross flue shield. Your employers paying that, you know, so crying, crying set of things as someone who had spent all of these years as sensibly in healthcare, that all of that was a learning curve for me. Really understand that the incentives in the business decisions that go into deciding that something is worth spending time on, and and not just that, I guess that's been way of saying it, that because there's an opportunity cost to where you find your time shore so that it's worth this is worth doing over the other things that I couldn't be the priority. Yeah, and you know, and so I love to tell you that like I had it all figured out when I quit my job and want to start up, and don't tell my dad I didn't you just see, think the big act. It was even crazier. You...

...know, you know a friend. He says I shouldn't call it luck because it was more than that. But an opportunity presented itself and we were positioned to take advantage of it and did. And that apportunity was a unique one, and that we were offered the opportunity to work with a pharmaceutical company as what I now would call it a beyond the pill or behavioral wrap around solution. And and I'll be honest, like when we were sketching out the idea for this product, that that was a business model opportunity was not on my radar at all. But when they called, we answered and, you know, went down that path and so I think, you know, there is something to seeing that an opportunity exists in being prepared to add to pursue it. Hmmm. So you so you mentioned the pharmaceutical company. So how did that lead to the the buyout by anthem? And not directly, so you know it. It allowed us to really build a product that executed well at scale. So it was a really unique partnership. They they took a chance on us and I think is maybe maybe starting to become more common, but certainly was not at the time we executed that deal, and we're very collaborative. Right. So, you know, there were kinks in in they thought. You know, I remember the conversation still to this day so clearly, because the woman on their marketing team was just a blast to work with and I remember, you know, Kim saying to me, you know, this is a new business model for us. We think we're probably going to be be sending tenzero people in the first year. Right, and as a start up your life right, right on. We won. And then, you know, turns out Kim is Feno, nominally her job, and there they're stills and marketing team crushed it and they send us tenzero people in the first three months. Oh my gosh. Right, and and and and, you know, and we were on the phone like every couple days, like how we're going to navigate this, like, you know, what are the ways we can like, we just need the patients to have a great experience. So right, what are you going to do? And what are we going to do? And it was, you know, lovely collaboration and I remember just one day, you know, they were like, well, you know, like we so now we've got this issue and like this is great because it means people are using it and they're buying it and this is a great problem to have. And she's just whatever. One stops saying that it's still a problem. Right, my God, like Pank you. Thank you, because you're inserted this just I mean, you unique experience. But you know, that meant that we found all of the bugs in what we had known really quickly. Yeah, it rated and figured out, you know, like this is not a solution that can be solved with people when you have that many users on your platform. We've got to reengineer this feature and this function, you know, and so that allowed us to really gather a lot of data on what was working very, very quickly. And so, you know, we had that partnership and that really put us in a position to have a well tested both in academic research that was foundational to what we you know, our approach, and then in the execution. And so when we ended up then getting introduced to anthem about, you know, maybe could we work together and partner with some of the telephonic coaches that they had and we're trying to solve, you know, it was I think it d risks for anthem that partnership that ultimately became, you know, the the acquisition. You know, a lot of legitimacy, incredibility was established with that partnership. Yeah, exactly, you know, just because that partnership gave us, you know, evidence of being able to execute a scale. So scale down was a took a connected scale and put a digital health software solution on top of it and, you know, we understood the logistics of Scales and had, you know,...

...tested different scale models. And how do you deliver them and how do you on board people and how does it work if you live in rural Alabama versus downtown Chicago and to work differently? And does it matter if someone has, you know, this cell phone service provider versus this cell phone service provider? And and you know, I think that that I think my have offices would be you know, it gave them confidence that this was something they could roll roll out to their very diverse and broad membership base. So so there's a lot of innovators that have amazing technology that really struggle with adoption and engagement. It insund you know, and you know, to hear your story with over a hundred, almost a hundred and fiftyzero users. What was the what was the big decision that was made? Or was it, you know, this partnership, or was there something else to it? You know, it's funny. We built something that from the outside looks incredibly simple, and that was by design. Now, of course, behind the scenes it was not incredibly simple, but there was no APP scale down. Was a text message based program and that was my design because it meant that we could reach anyone. You know, you didn't you know the time, but I mean smartphone adoption continues to rise, but at the time, particularly in certain sociodemographic groups, it would it didn't have that penetration. And even among you people who have a smartphone, there's still not a great penetration of willingness to use APPS and willingness to use APPs regularly. And so the challenge of course, with messaging through APPS as I have to open the APP to get the message or I have to agree, without knowing what's coming my way, to a messaging and so, you know, we made a conscious choice to build this whole platform through text messaging and that meant folks who had a lipphone and still engage with our program which is, you know, and because when we ask people to text that we designed it, that the cost, you know, the answers they gave back. Could still need time with like a flip phone keypad where you don't have to bend the long sentence. Okay, you know, we used a smart scale that was a cellular chip. So most people, though, like connected devices. But you know, for folks who aren't in the space right like you could have a bluetooth or wi fi chip or you could have a cellular chip and it costs more to do a cellular chip and it's a little bit more of a complicated backend, logistic system and set up. But what we found was we were trying to reach a population that had a pretty diverse set of experiences, interests and trust of digital health and we were about and we were working in a space where people need to have a high degree of self efficacy to eat to be successful. Yea. And so if it takes me twenty minutes to pair the device that you have sent me to my account to have my first positive engagement with you, I do not feel set set up for success and that is frustrating and not a great user experience showing really different. When use a cellular scale, you can actually pair the scale to the users account before it leads the warehouse. So our users would get the scale in the mail, they would go open the box, take the scale out of the box, step on the scale and get a text message. No, no, so for people who are, you know, and not familiar with technology or don't feel competent with technology, that is an incredibly dim all experience. And so when we looked at our data, at what we actually found is that older adults were just as successful as those in the like the you know, twenty two, thirty year old like digital...

...generation, you know. So that things like that, like I didn't necessarily anticipate would happen. We really delighted to see in our data and I think that allows you to walk into someone like anthem and say, you know, this is not just for your millennials that are on your plan, like yes, work for everyone and that make you know that de risks the investment for them. So was that strategic decision that you and your partners and in the team, you know, commercialization decision that you made? That the user experience as it relates to that ease of use was something that was a real top priority for you all. It was, and I think even some ways that probably comes out of the fact that our founding team have all spent our careers working in a lot of medically underserved populations and so you know, our take is always sort of like look, it's it's easy to help healthy, wealthy and white people do things, but you know, my all of us, but particularly one cofounder, really devoted his entire career to reaching people that no one else is reaching. Yeah, are not successful with traditional programs and so the idea sort of that you can succeed with the hard to reach. You know, then you build like that's the place to start and build right. And I think you know the difference, and that's probably a really fundamental difference, between what gets built by something academics and what gets built in the commercial space. Because you know sometimes what happens the commercial spaces. Someone has a great experience individually and they say this is what worked for me and I'm giving the WHO whole product in business around it and they find those first five users. Right, it's at crossing the chasm issue. You find those first five early adopters and you can't get the next fifty. I think that's different than taking some some concepts in the work and the experiences that come from working and underserved populations and saying, you know, this is what works there and now I'm going to offer it to be easy to reach people. Yeah, that's a really interesting approach ry. But you know, HMM, yeah, that's really interesting. So there's this explosion of innovation taking place in healthcare, right, obviously we all we all know that. In so one of the things that I hear health innovators talk about is there's so much noise, right, there's so much innovation, there's so much change, an opportunity. How do I rise above the noise? So so you know, I pose that question to you. How did you rise above the noise? Evidence you the our farm up partners found us because of the published work that that my colleagues had done and I know their market research had told them that that would be valuable. I was surprised and impressed by how important and how valuable that was in the market place. Initially, their sales team was not going out and talking about us and our science. Yeah, and ultimately, like they came back and there their sales people. You know, there's all kinds of regulations around the pharmaceutical industry and I have a deep appreciation for now having had that partnership and their patients with educating me about it. But ultimately, like there their team was taking shrink wrapped PDFs of some of the science that our team had done, Uh Huh, you know, around the foundational concepts behind our product. Yep, and going in and saying like Hey, doc, like you might not know that daily wag is a really affective weight Los Strategy. Here's...

...the science behind daily waging. You know, when you use our drug, your members get access to a daily way program right and like, and it was, you know, just I think like that is, you know, Bo get. I get the pharmaceutical company a lot of credit for valuing the behaviors sciences. M Sure, the drug. Yeah, a lot of my drug absolutely, you know, but but they really, you know, I think it is. You know, it's not. And that was happening like well before Jim Madeira of the AMA started talking about digital snake oil, well before, you know, the digital therapeutic route existed with the FDA. And so, you know, to me that just says, like you know, evidence based digital health is not going away right like it is. It's just going to become more important, and I think you know that doesn't always have to mean a randomized clinical trial, but I do think they're there is a skepticism, how the septicism about the claims that people make around digital health that need to be investigated, because I think it's particularly like in the mental health space. You know, if someone is using an APP, you know there's a not there's a there's sort of this trade off, right, like they may be using that APP at the expense of going to see a psychologist or a psychiatrist. And while I love the idea of digital health being able to provide reach, you know if, if they're someone is using something that does not work in place of something we know does, Yep, you know there's a risk there, and so I think evidence is what helps people do you risk. So let me ask you this. So a lot of the health innovators that I work with know that they need to do a pilot because they need to have some type of data to demonstrate safety and efficacy. How would you compare what the average health innovators doing with a pilot or two pilots with the click with the potential buyer, versus what you were doing in academia. Would you say that that was really the same, that they're kind of pulling the same data, or is maybe part of your success that you had more credibility because your researchers or that you kind of knew what data to collect or how to present the data? Help me understand that. I think they're probably are health innovators who are doing high quality trials. I think the challenge if you're on the buy or side, right, if you put yourself in the seat of a pharmaceutical company looking at partnerships or a payer, you know, I need to be able to trust that you haven't manipulated data. And the upside of this pure reviewed process that our team had gone through is that they are. There was an adjudication of the process and the quality, and so I think the you know, you know, take another company that I have a lot of admiration for. You know, amount of health. took an evidence based protocol, they turned it into a digital solution that they made scalable, but then they went through the process of that mean they really haven't done a remarkable job of investing in scientists and science. Yeah, putting their data out there for screw me, and I think that's the difference. I think it's different for me to walk in with a sales deck that says, you know, thirty five percent of people were successful in this outcome, right, and our ample right, and I don't know if that's a sample of five or seeing right, five thousand. You know, I think it's really different to say, you know, here's you know, we did this study in and actually, you know, open yourself up to some scrutiny of the data... a different way. And I think that's kind of this spectrum that we're in right now. A digital health is like that. That's the ton of the digital therapeutic review process, right, is there's an adjudication of the methods for data collection and analysis. That gives people confidence, I think, in the question is, you know, for things that have a lower risk profile, what's the next you know, where does that sit in the spect drum? HMM, yeah, so the last question I have for you before we wrap it up and then open it up to the live Qa, and if anyone is out there listening and you want to be a part of that, just email me. At Dr Roxy, Roxy at Dr Roxycom, and you can get on their invite list. The last question that I have is there are so many healthcare innovators that are in the trenches right now. What advice do you give them? Academics are your friend, you know, there there is. You know, I was we just published a paper on sort of the history and future of digital health with some colleagues and I posted about it on my linked dinner twitter something and someone paink me was like, you know, I don't, I can't get behind the pay wall to get access, right, because so many journal articles behind a pay wall, and I was like, Oh, just you know, if you ever want a paper, just ask someone like happy to send it to you. Right. And everyone else I know is too. Yeah, like academics are actually like largely accessible, particularly if you want them to go on about their science. And you look at our whole time, right, you know, it's so I think it's. It's if you want to know about their science, there you know, almost no one I know is these unwilling to share a paper, answer question, you know, and I think also they're available for collaboration a lot. So certainly everyone's time is valuable. Don't ask them to give your time for free, just like, yeah, to act up a friends. Don't ask to start up to give you things for free because they don't have any money. Yeah, but you know, I think there are a lot more opportunities for collaboration between the two. Right you don't have to become a world class scientist as a startup founder. You just need to find one to work with right when. You know what I literally I you know, earlier this week sat down to start you chat out with the start up about like how do you bring behavioral science into what you are doing in your digital health program you know they don't have the ability to hire someone like me full time, but I'm happy to come in and talk with you about what works. That's brilliant, but is absolutely brilliant oaks it. So I want to give you one opportunity to before we wrap up, to say what projects are you working on right now, and then how can people reach you? I've actually, think I'm most excited about comes out of being with the academic community, in the scientific community last week, is there are a lot of folks who are training in those academic programs. That I came out like when I came out of who want to connect with industry and they don't they don't know how right like they their advisor can tell them how to write an academic CV and how to write an NIH grant. But you know, they're looking for, you know, digital health companies who want to bring this skill set in, and I know there are so many digital health companies that want to bring that skill set in, and so, you know, I'm really excited about trying to figure out a way to bridge that and bring those communities together, because they think they would both just gain such an effit from it. So I'm really excited about about trying to do some work in that space. That would be immensely valuable do it. So how can our audience get a hold of you if they have any additional questions? Oh, I'm on the twitter. Okay, act Dr Kate Woollen, I'm on Linkedin. Very easy to find. Okay, excellent. Well, thank you so much for being a part of the show. My pleasure. What's the difference between launching and commercializing a healthcare... Avation, many people will launch a new product, few will commercialize it. To learn the difference between latch and commercialization and to watch past episodes of the show, head to our video show page at Dr Roxycom. Thanks so much for watching and listening to the show. You can subscribe to the latest episodes on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcasts and spotify, or subscribe to the video episodes on our youtube channel. No matter the platform, just search coiq with Dr Roxy. Until next time, LET'S RAISE OUR COIQ.

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