Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 2 years ago

Bridging the Gap Between Academia and Entrepreneurship in Evidence-Based Digital Health w/Dr. Kate Wolin

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Many healthcare innovators build amazing technology but struggle with adoption and engagement. What can healthcare entrepreneurs learn from academia to solve this problem? Why is it so important to understand the business models in healthcare innovation?

 

On today’s show, we’re talking to Dr. Kate Wolin, the CEO and co-founder of ScaleDown, the one-of-a-kind digital behavioral health innovation that successfully eliminated the “graveyard” drawer of digital fitness devices, attracted around 145,000 users to the platform, and was acquired by Anthem Health - Blue Shield in November 2018.

 

Dr. Wolin shares the lessons she’s learned while switching lanes from academia to entrepreneurship, and the power of starting with an underserved demographic.



3 Things We Learned

 

How to cut through the noise and competition in healthcare innovation

The best way to rise above all the noise and competition in healthcare innovation is evidence and published work. This de-risks the investment for potential partners which makes it easier to go to market.

 

The unique strategy Dr. Wolin and her team implemented

ScaleDown managed to reach people no one else was reaching and people who hadn’t had success with existing models. Nothing makes a stronger business case than starting from the underserved, hard-to-reach markets. It helps the idea of going to the easy-to-reach markets make more sense to investors and partners.

 

The value of building relationships with academics

As a healthcare innovator, you don’t have to become a world-class scientist, you just need to find one and work with them. Invest in building relationships with academics. They can offer the insight and evidence you need to make commercialization easier.

 

95% of innovations brought to market fail to reach an adequate level of customer acceptance and profitability, but there are steps innovators can take to increase the chances of success. Working with scientists to build evidence for your innovation is key, along with paying attention to the innovations that have found success in academic science, and understanding the business model and product-market fit in healthcare. Ultimately, it’s all about reducing risk for investors and perfecting the user experience around ease of use.


Guest Bio-


Dr. Kate Wolin is a behavioral scientist, epidemiologist, and entrepreneur. She is the CEO and co-founder of Scale Down, a digital behavioral health innovation. Go to https://www.linkedin.com/in/kate-wolin/ to connect with her and follow @DrKateWolin on Twitter.

Welcome to Coiq and first of itskind video program about health innovators, early adopters and influencers and their stories aboutwriting the roller coaster of healthcare innovation. I'm your host, Dr Roxy,founder of Legacy DNA marketing group, and it's time to raise our COIQ.We're back with another interesting episode with Dr Kate Rolling. She is the CEOand Co founder of scale down, a digital behavioral health innovation that has successfullyeliminated all of the fitness devices in the graveyard drawer and was successfully sold byeight too anthem and in November of last year. Welcome to the show,Kate. Thank you. So I would like to have you start off byjust given the audience a little bit of background information about you and what youdo to just kick us off. Sure. So I started my career as anacademic medical center researcher and so wrote Miah grants and got funded to runstudies largely looking at the roll of lifestyle behaviors and chronic disease prevention and chronicdisease management. So when I started in the field a long time ago andI had a lot less gray hair. We did that through facetoface encounters throughgroup workshops them. We gave people binders full of papers. We would supplementthat with telephonic support and over times, as digital became more prominent and moreaccessible, started moving into using digital strategy. So obviously, early on that couldbe just an expansion of the role of the telephonic coaching evolving into usingthe web, into using the telephone and a more scalable way through I yare, and then obviously into text messaging and the opportunity to use APPS.And the thing that I noticed over time in that space was that a lotof these interventions that had been developed by some of my favorite colleagues and peersin the field was that these programs would be found to work in a clinicaltrial, they would get published and that was kind of the end of therope. And I found that really personally just satisfying in my own work,but also sort of just frustrating as a scientist, because our goal is tocreate things that work but that then move on and really help people. Andso start a kind of hanging more attention to the scalability and realize that sortof these these worlds of the commercial, particular on digital and academic were existingsort of in parallel and disconnected from each other and wanted to find a wayto bridge them. And so a much, much longer story made short, someof my favorite colleagues had just finished a clinical trial of an intervention forweight management that they thought had scalability potential and I thought had a normous scalabilitypotential, and so we started incubating that ideas that nights and weekends project ofyou know, how would this concept look if it existed in the real world, and sort of really from the ground up, built that over some verylate nights and very tired people, and ultimately that became the scale down.And so when it reached a point of really being a viable business, Ileft my academic job and became the CEO of the company and grew it overthe the intervening few years until we met the wonderful folks at the up themand and they took it off our hands. So so what was it like foryou writing this crazy rat ride of roller coaster healthcare invation? You know, the interesting thing about it is there are so many you know as muchas I sort of now. So my...

...time drawing distinctions between academia and andthe commercial world. A lot of the skills that I learned as an academicreally served me well in the commercial world, you know. So as an academicwe're always doing what we call a pilot yeah, the world would callan MVP, and we're doing a lot lot of testing and iterating through that, both through quantitative and qualitative research. So, you know, doing focusgroups and having conversations with people in that community, because we do a lotof Communitas research in my world. You know, it's usability testing and andso, you know, those elements felt very familiar to me. You know, I think one of the things maybe people don't realize about being an academicresearcher is that, you know, I had to fund ninety eight percent ofmy salary and all of my staff through grants. So I spent a lotof time pastilying how and tryanling whole bunch of other people that the work Iwanted to do was worth funding. And in is an academic that. Youknow, that's the pure review process at Niah or other funding agencies. Andagain you're just like, you know, as a startup founder who's going toraise capital, which we didn't end up doing. It scale down, buthad a lot of conversations around it. You know, you're trying to convincesomeone that your idea, you know, balances that space between innovative enough thatyou know you are doing something novel and can own some sort of space,and not so outlandish and risky that you have, you know, another you'reunlikely to be successful, whatever successful means, and so, you know, thosethings were very familiar to me, I would say. You know.That said, there are some cushions and some infrastructures and supports that exists inacademia that were not as a startup founder. Right. So I was ajar andfinance and janitor and everything else, and that was you know, it'ssort of you get really good as an academic at being outstanding at your specialty. That's how you succeed. You have to get really comfortable as a startupfounder with being good enough at a lot of things, but back of whatyour secret sauce and specialty is. So that, I think, was oneof the interesting, really interesting parts of the journey for me. HMM,I don't think I realized that you were raising your own money through grants tosupport your initiatives. Yeah, so most, most of what you read in youryou literature is anih funded in you or, you know, equivalent agenciesin Canada and Europe. You know, and it just should depends on whichinstitution you're at, but you know the extent to which someone is supported bythe institution versus supported by grants, and there's a why range. It had, how much teaching responsibilities you have, and that's sort of sture. Butmost research that comes out of academia is is funded through a peer review processand then it also has to go through another pure review process to get publishedin the literature. So you know, it really is a level of scrutinythat that I place a high level of value on and really is why Ithink we should pay attention to the innovations that have been found to be successfulin in academic science as really being a great way to point industry in directionsthat are worth going in right because, you know, as an example,we've been just last weeks at the society behavioral medicine, which is the placefor folks who do behavior change research to to convene, you know, andjust you know thousands of you know, abstracts and sessions and information of peopletesting questions and in being able to answer...

...some of the very questions that Iknow entrepreneurs are struggling with in their product development and value proposition life cycle.You know, these answers are out there. In a lot of cases, youknow, people have spent thirty years understanding, you know, what worksfor weight loss and self monitoring and M for strategies. There's a lot tobe learned. You don't have to go reinvent the wheel and there's lots stillleft to be right. And then that's yet the flip side of it isyou know academic interventions are often done and that you know, a couple hundredpeople for a large study, and one of the things that sound and thescale down experience was, you know, there are things that you don't findout don't work in your product or no work how you intended, until youstart getting thousands of users. And so that's been fun for you to nowgo back and I had the really great experience of talking to some remarkable doctoralstudents a couple weeks ago about, you know, some of those things thatyou only learn when you start working at scale and tradeoffs you have to makeright because you know sometimes you have to you know, you have to gowith the eighty percent of the effect because it allows you, to me,to reach, you know, ted x number of people and right voices.Hmm, I think you unknowingly just endorsed my peer reviewed article on what strategieshealth innovators use to commercialize their innovation. Thank you for that one. Sowhat were you thinking as you were contemplating the decision between staying in academia,which sounds like where you were for most of your career, to moving intothis world of entrepreneurship? What was running through your mind? scalability and impactreally, you know, it's it was a total unknown for me. Youknow, I literally my first job out of college was working on research trialsand and I just find it work at an academic medical center. I neverreally thought I would do anything else. But I had had the really uniqueand wonderful experience of getting invited to go on a national television show and talkabout the research that links ob city and cancer risk. And you know,it was really excited to you know, as a scientist, right you wantto get good information out there and I can write all the papers in theworld, but a national television show lands in the living room of a lotof people and getting information was a really wonderful opportunity and it was really excitedabout it. And doctor shows not too bad. It depends we ask thesedays, but yeah, you know. That said, you know, theoppers platform then rite, the opportunity to present good science to a lot ofpianos, a wonderful one and I, you know, nothing but lovely thingsto say about that opportunity. And and of course, you know, myparents were thrilled about this right because for the first time they could actually explainto people what I did in some way, shape or form. And so theepisode air and my parents had friends over for like a viewing part.Oh, that's awesome, lovely, and you know, I mean it's reallya gift to have parents who are so supportive. And you know, mydad called me afterwards and said I didn't know ob city caused cancer, andit was, you know, sort of this moment of dad like this iswhat I've been doing for fs like a decade, you know, and soit's this this moment of Um. You know, I would into this fieldbecause I wanted to help people and make them healthy and have an impact.And am I having the impact I want to have and thought I was having. If my own dad doesn't know that there's a link between the two things. I spend most of my time thinking about right, you know, andso it really sort of pushed me to...

...think about how, you know,really that fundamental tradeoff. I could spend my career doing these studies to refinethis question in groups of a couple hundred people, and at the time Ileft academia, I just wrapped up being at this lead investigator at one ofthe sites of a multisite art clinical trial that was examining the role of weightloss in preventing breast cancer recurrence and mortality in women who'd been diagnosed with breastcancer. Like I can't there are many wonderful and worthy causes and questions toask, and that certainly ranked very high for me right because preventing a cancerrecurrence and preventing death are fundamentally what I got and feel to do. And, you know, and a sort of okay, like you, we had, you know, several hundred people go through this study and benefit from ourintervention, which was effective and added to the literature. But that's kind oflike as big as it gets, and so you do that a handful oftimes over your career and and that's great and and it. You know ithad that been my entire career, I certainly, you know, would nothave felt like I didn't add something in my time on earth. But,you know, the opportunity to then turn around and say, okay, youknow, at scale down we reached, you know, tens of thousands,you know, actually well over a Hundredzero people, you know, in ourvery short time of operating. You know that is just impacted a different scale. And those people, you know, they may not have been, youknow, facing a cancer recurrence. And there's just sort of everything is aboutsort of how do I wake up each day and feel like the thing I'mgoing to go work on matters in the world? That's that's the great thingabout healthcare entrepreneurs is that that's the question they wake up everyday wanting to answer, is how do I do something that matters in this world? Uh Huh. Yeah, so, as you thought about what entrepreneurship was going to belike, right when you're at that that cross road, right, what didn'tI know? How he what did you think it was going to be?And then how is it different? I thought it was going to be afailure, right, because I'm I'm dating scientists as well, and, youknow, I looked at the numbers. I'm like, well, both startupsfail and healthcare has really hard and I just sort of was like well,you know. And so I didn't want to do it for the longest time. Right, I sort of knew I wanted to do something and I wasstruggling with it and there would come home and I would just be like I'mso frustrated, like is what I'm doing matters? And my husband, who, thank God it's not in healthcare, was like just go do something right, and family comes from a long line of folks who are risk takers inentrepreneurs and and you know, in the he was just sort of like justgo do it already. And but what if it fails, right, likejust, you know, just I I mean really, it's funny to bean entrepreneur and say that you're not a risk taker, but I'm not.I'm very, very calculated in the risks I take. You know, ultimatelyhe was. He'd his response was just like so what, you know,if it fails, you'll do something else, like so what stopped talking about it, go do it, and I really am like a very action,we're into person, and so I don't think I ever could have done itwithout without his that had to make a big difference. Yeah, I meanit's just unconstut Fort. And then the other side of it is, youknow, I launched scale down with too wonderful, remarkable, outstanding colleagues andso, you know, I knew I was going into this with people whoreally got the science and got what we were trying to do. And oneof my two cofinders had previously launched a start up, had a very successfulaccent and and is just you know, he drove drove that whole strategy andexecution and so he knew what he was doing. So even though I wasgoing to be the person day today,...

I knew I had this great combinationof people who understood at you for Yourship, and people understood the science behind me, and so that made taking the leap easier. Uh Huh. Yeah, I mean you're so right. You know, commercialize in an innovation andin the industry is really difficult. It's even more so in healthcare. There'sthis stat that really wrapped all of my doctoral work that ninety five percent ofinnovations brought to market fail to reach an adequate level of customer acceptance or profitability. And and so really that's actually the whole premise for this show is,is to being able to share stories like yours, to be able to helpmore people be successful. So so how did you get the odds part,I think about it is, you know what, you know, we hadhad plenty of conversations along the way of talking to people in healthcare space.We were in weight management, right, so population is overweight or OBE's.It is probably easier to list conditions that obesity is not related to than tolist the Merriatre it is. And I remember sitting down with an executive ata payer and, you know, and in its person was just, youknow, lovely in being, you know, kindest can be, and very transparent, right. And Uh, that in our entrepreneurs sometimes the hardest thingto get is a know, you're just kind of left dangling. Yeah,and this person who said to me like look, Kate, like obesity isa huge problem. You know, no pun intended. When we get it, we believe it, but you know, it is not the problem we're tryingto solve. Right now, like the thing that is driving our financialsituation is readmissions. Yeah, you know, and then I had, you know, similar conversation with someone else who said, you know, you knowwhat look like. We know this is a problem for our members, butthe ROI for weight loss in the you know, economic models. And thankyou, Eric Finkel seen, for doing that work, because it's really greatthat we have these academics who do this great science. Yeah, you know, happens at around twenty four months, maybe later twenty thirty six, andthe average time that someone is in our plan is eighteen to twenty four months. So we're not going to realize the ROI that comes from investing in weightloss. So while we know it's a problem, like, it's not goingto drive enough on the financial side for us. And like that's the really, like interesting things that people are. People are out there solving real problems. It's not entrepreneurs, but figuring out like the business model and the productmarket fit is the hard part, and that's like, you know, thatto me is interesting tension and having come out of academia, is academics don'thave to think about that. They don't have to figure out WHO's going topay for this and where does it fit within like the landscape? And it'sactually fascinating how many people don't. You really don't understand the business models thatare in healthcare, like their business are right most people that if you're notgetting your your healthcare coverage from medicat or Medicare, you're getting it from aself insured employer in most cases. And you know people are no, no, I have, I have blue cross flue shield. Your employers paying that, you know, so crying, crying set of things as someone who hadspent all of these years as sensibly in healthcare, that all of that wasa learning curve for me. Really understand that the incentives in the business decisionsthat go into deciding that something is worth spending time on, and and notjust that, I guess that's been way of saying it, that because there'san opportunity cost to where you find your time shore so that it's worth thisis worth doing over the other things that I couldn't be the priority. Yeah, and you know, and so I love to tell you that like Ihad it all figured out when I quit my job and want to start up, and don't tell my dad I didn't you just see, think the bigact. It was even crazier. You...

...know, you know a friend.He says I shouldn't call it luck because it was more than that. Butan opportunity presented itself and we were positioned to take advantage of it and did. And that apportunity was a unique one, and that we were offered the opportunityto work with a pharmaceutical company as what I now would call it abeyond the pill or behavioral wrap around solution. And and I'll be honest, likewhen we were sketching out the idea for this product, that that wasa business model opportunity was not on my radar at all. But when theycalled, we answered and, you know, went down that path and so Ithink, you know, there is something to seeing that an opportunity existsin being prepared to add to pursue it. Hmmm. So you so you mentionedthe pharmaceutical company. So how did that lead to the the buyout byanthem? And not directly, so you know it. It allowed us toreally build a product that executed well at scale. So it was a reallyunique partnership. They they took a chance on us and I think is maybemaybe starting to become more common, but certainly was not at the time weexecuted that deal, and we're very collaborative. Right. So, you know,there were kinks in in they thought. You know, I remember the conversationstill to this day so clearly, because the woman on their marketing teamwas just a blast to work with and I remember, you know, Kimsaying to me, you know, this is a new business model for us. We think we're probably going to be be sending tenzero people in the firstyear. Right, and as a start up your life right, right on. We won. And then, you know, turns out Kim is Feno, nominally her job, and there they're stills and marketing team crushed it andthey send us tenzero people in the first three months. Oh my gosh.Right, and and and and, you know, and we were on thephone like every couple days, like how we're going to navigate this, like, you know, what are the ways we can like, we just needthe patients to have a great experience. So right, what are you goingto do? And what are we going to do? And it was,you know, lovely collaboration and I remember just one day, you know,they were like, well, you know, like we so now we've got thisissue and like this is great because it means people are using it andthey're buying it and this is a great problem to have. And she's justwhatever. One stops saying that it's still a problem. Right, my God, like Pank you. Thank you, because you're inserted this just I mean, you unique experience. But you know, that meant that we found all ofthe bugs in what we had known really quickly. Yeah, it ratedand figured out, you know, like this is not a solution that canbe solved with people when you have that many users on your platform. We'vegot to reengineer this feature and this function, you know, and so that allowedus to really gather a lot of data on what was working very,very quickly. And so, you know, we had that partnership and that reallyput us in a position to have a well tested both in academic researchthat was foundational to what we you know, our approach, and then in theexecution. And so when we ended up then getting introduced to anthem about, you know, maybe could we work together and partner with some of thetelephonic coaches that they had and we're trying to solve, you know, itwas I think it d risks for anthem that partnership that ultimately became, youknow, the the acquisition. You know, a lot of legitimacy, incredibility wasestablished with that partnership. Yeah, exactly, you know, just becausethat partnership gave us, you know, evidence of being able to execute ascale. So scale down was a took a connected scale and put a digitalhealth software solution on top of it and, you know, we understood the logisticsof Scales and had, you know,...

...tested different scale models. And howdo you deliver them and how do you on board people and how doesit work if you live in rural Alabama versus downtown Chicago and to work differently? And does it matter if someone has, you know, this cell phone serviceprovider versus this cell phone service provider? And and you know, I thinkthat that I think my have offices would be you know, it gavethem confidence that this was something they could roll roll out to their very diverseand broad membership base. So so there's a lot of innovators that have amazingtechnology that really struggle with adoption and engagement. It insund you know, and youknow, to hear your story with over a hundred, almost a hundredand fiftyzero users. What was the what was the big decision that was made? Or was it, you know, this partnership, or was there somethingelse to it? You know, it's funny. We built something that fromthe outside looks incredibly simple, and that was by design. Now, ofcourse, behind the scenes it was not incredibly simple, but there was noAPP scale down. Was a text message based program and that was my designbecause it meant that we could reach anyone. You know, you didn't you knowthe time, but I mean smartphone adoption continues to rise, but atthe time, particularly in certain sociodemographic groups, it would it didn't have that penetration. And even among you people who have a smartphone, there's still nota great penetration of willingness to use APPS and willingness to use APPs regularly.And so the challenge of course, with messaging through APPS as I have toopen the APP to get the message or I have to agree, without knowingwhat's coming my way, to a messaging and so, you know, wemade a conscious choice to build this whole platform through text messaging and that meantfolks who had a lipphone and still engage with our program which is, youknow, and because when we ask people to text that we designed it,that the cost, you know, the answers they gave back. Could stillneed time with like a flip phone keypad where you don't have to bend thelong sentence. Okay, you know, we used a smart scale that wasa cellular chip. So most people, though, like connected devices. Butyou know, for folks who aren't in the space right like you could havea bluetooth or wi fi chip or you could have a cellular chip and itcosts more to do a cellular chip and it's a little bit more of acomplicated backend, logistic system and set up. But what we found was we weretrying to reach a population that had a pretty diverse set of experiences,interests and trust of digital health and we were about and we were working ina space where people need to have a high degree of self efficacy to eatto be successful. Yea. And so if it takes me twenty minutes topair the device that you have sent me to my account to have my firstpositive engagement with you, I do not feel set set up for success andthat is frustrating and not a great user experience showing really different. When usea cellular scale, you can actually pair the scale to the users account beforeit leads the warehouse. So our users would get the scale in the mail, they would go open the box, take the scale out of the box, step on the scale and get a text message. No, no,so for people who are, you know, and not familiar with technology or don'tfeel competent with technology, that is an incredibly dim all experience. Andso when we looked at our data, at what we actually found is thatolder adults were just as successful as those in the like the you know,twenty two, thirty year old like digital...

...generation, you know. So thatthings like that, like I didn't necessarily anticipate would happen. We really delightedto see in our data and I think that allows you to walk into someonelike anthem and say, you know, this is not just for your millennialsthat are on your plan, like yes, work for everyone and that make youknow that de risks the investment for them. So was that strategic decisionthat you and your partners and in the team, you know, commercialization decisionthat you made? That the user experience as it relates to that ease ofuse was something that was a real top priority for you all. It was, and I think even some ways that probably comes out of the fact thatour founding team have all spent our careers working in a lot of medically underservedpopulations and so you know, our take is always sort of like look,it's it's easy to help healthy, wealthy and white people do things, butyou know, my all of us, but particularly one cofounder, really devotedhis entire career to reaching people that no one else is reaching. Yeah,are not successful with traditional programs and so the idea sort of that you cansucceed with the hard to reach. You know, then you build like that'sthe place to start and build right. And I think you know the difference, and that's probably a really fundamental difference, between what gets built by something academicsand what gets built in the commercial space. Because you know sometimes whathappens the commercial spaces. Someone has a great experience individually and they say thisis what worked for me and I'm giving the WHO whole product in business aroundit and they find those first five users. Right, it's at crossing the chasmissue. You find those first five early adopters and you can't get thenext fifty. I think that's different than taking some some concepts in the workand the experiences that come from working and underserved populations and saying, you know, this is what works there and now I'm going to offer it to beeasy to reach people. Yeah, that's a really interesting approach ry. Butyou know, HMM, yeah, that's really interesting. So there's this explosionof innovation taking place in healthcare, right, obviously we all we all know that. In so one of the things that I hear health innovators talk aboutis there's so much noise, right, there's so much innovation, there's somuch change, an opportunity. How do I rise above the noise? Soso you know, I pose that question to you. How did you riseabove the noise? Evidence you the our farm up partners found us because ofthe published work that that my colleagues had done and I know their market researchhad told them that that would be valuable. I was surprised and impressed by howimportant and how valuable that was in the market place. Initially, theirsales team was not going out and talking about us and our science. Yeah, and ultimately, like they came back and there their sales people. Youknow, there's all kinds of regulations around the pharmaceutical industry and I have adeep appreciation for now having had that partnership and their patients with educating me aboutit. But ultimately, like there their team was taking shrink wrapped PDFs ofsome of the science that our team had done, Uh Huh, you know, around the foundational concepts behind our product. Yep, and going in and sayinglike Hey, doc, like you might not know that daily wag isa really affective weight Los Strategy. Here's...

...the science behind daily waging. Youknow, when you use our drug, your members get access to a dailyway program right and like, and it was, you know, just Ithink like that is, you know, Bo get. I get the pharmaceuticalcompany a lot of credit for valuing the behaviors sciences. M Sure, thedrug. Yeah, a lot of my drug absolutely, you know, butbut they really, you know, I think it is. You know,it's not. And that was happening like well before Jim Madeira of the AMAstarted talking about digital snake oil, well before, you know, the digitaltherapeutic route existed with the FDA. And so, you know, to methat just says, like you know, evidence based digital health is not goingaway right like it is. It's just going to become more important, andI think you know that doesn't always have to mean a randomized clinical trial,but I do think they're there is a skepticism, how the septicism about theclaims that people make around digital health that need to be investigated, because Ithink it's particularly like in the mental health space. You know, if someoneis using an APP, you know there's a not there's a there's sort ofthis trade off, right, like they may be using that APP at theexpense of going to see a psychologist or a psychiatrist. And while I lovethe idea of digital health being able to provide reach, you know if,if they're someone is using something that does not work in place of something weknow does, Yep, you know there's a risk there, and so Ithink evidence is what helps people do you risk. So let me ask youthis. So a lot of the health innovators that I work with know thatthey need to do a pilot because they need to have some type of datato demonstrate safety and efficacy. How would you compare what the average health innovatorsdoing with a pilot or two pilots with the click with the potential buyer,versus what you were doing in academia. Would you say that that was reallythe same, that they're kind of pulling the same data, or is maybepart of your success that you had more credibility because your researchers or that youkind of knew what data to collect or how to present the data? Helpme understand that. I think they're probably are health innovators who are doing highquality trials. I think the challenge if you're on the buy or side,right, if you put yourself in the seat of a pharmaceutical company looking atpartnerships or a payer, you know, I need to be able to trustthat you haven't manipulated data. And the upside of this pure reviewed process thatour team had gone through is that they are. There was an adjudication ofthe process and the quality, and so I think the you know, youknow, take another company that I have a lot of admiration for. Youknow, amount of health. took an evidence based protocol, they turned itinto a digital solution that they made scalable, but then they went through the processof that mean they really haven't done a remarkable job of investing in scientistsand science. Yeah, putting their data out there for screw me, andI think that's the difference. I think it's different for me to walk inwith a sales deck that says, you know, thirty five percent of peoplewere successful in this outcome, right, and our ample right, and Idon't know if that's a sample of five or seeing right, five thousand.You know, I think it's really different to say, you know, here'syou know, we did this study in and actually, you know, openyourself up to some scrutiny of the data...

...in a different way. And Ithink that's kind of this spectrum that we're in right now. A digital healthis like that. That's the ton of the digital therapeutic review process, right, is there's an adjudication of the methods for data collection and analysis. Thatgives people confidence, I think, in the question is, you know,for things that have a lower risk profile, what's the next you know, wheredoes that sit in the spect drum? HMM, yeah, so the lastquestion I have for you before we wrap it up and then open itup to the live Qa, and if anyone is out there listening and youwant to be a part of that, just email me. At Dr Roxy, Roxy at Dr Roxycom, and you can get on their invite list.The last question that I have is there are so many healthcare innovators that arein the trenches right now. What advice do you give them? Academics areyour friend, you know, there there is. You know, I waswe just published a paper on sort of the history and future of digital healthwith some colleagues and I posted about it on my linked dinner twitter something andsomeone paink me was like, you know, I don't, I can't get behindthe pay wall to get access, right, because so many journal articlesbehind a pay wall, and I was like, Oh, just you know, if you ever want a paper, just ask someone like happy to sendit to you. Right. And everyone else I know is too. Yeah, like academics are actually like largely accessible, particularly if you want them to goon about their science. And you look at our whole time, right, you know, it's so I think it's. It's if you want toknow about their science, there you know, almost no one I know is theseunwilling to share a paper, answer question, you know, and Ithink also they're available for collaboration a lot. So certainly everyone's time is valuable.Don't ask them to give your time for free, just like, yeah, to act up a friends. Don't ask to start up to give youthings for free because they don't have any money. Yeah, but you know, I think there are a lot more opportunities for collaboration between the two.Right you don't have to become a world class scientist as a startup founder.You just need to find one to work with right when. You know whatI literally I you know, earlier this week sat down to start you chatout with the start up about like how do you bring behavioral science into whatyou are doing in your digital health program you know they don't have the abilityto hire someone like me full time, but I'm happy to come in andtalk with you about what works. That's brilliant, but is absolutely brilliant oaksit. So I want to give you one opportunity to before we wrap up, to say what projects are you working on right now, and then howcan people reach you? I've actually, think I'm most excited about comes outof being with the academic community, in the scientific community last week, isthere are a lot of folks who are training in those academic programs. ThatI came out like when I came out of who want to connect with industryand they don't they don't know how right like they their advisor can tell themhow to write an academic CV and how to write an NIH grant. Butyou know, they're looking for, you know, digital health companies who wantto bring this skill set in, and I know there are so many digitalhealth companies that want to bring that skill set in, and so, youknow, I'm really excited about trying to figure out a way to bridge thatand bring those communities together, because they think they would both just gain suchan effit from it. So I'm really excited about about trying to do somework in that space. That would be immensely valuable do it. So howcan our audience get a hold of you if they have any additional questions?Oh, I'm on the twitter. Okay, act Dr Kate Woollen, I'm onLinkedin. Very easy to find. Okay, excellent. Well, thankyou so much for being a part of the show. My pleasure. What'sthe difference between launching and commercializing a healthcare...

...in Avation, many people will launcha new product, few will commercialize it. To learn the difference between latch andcommercialization and to watch past episodes of the show, head to our videoshow page at Dr Roxycom. Thanks so much for watching and listening to theshow. You can subscribe to the latest episodes on your favorite podcast APP likeapple podcasts and spotify, or subscribe to the video episodes on our youtube channel. No matter the platform, just search coiq with Dr Roxy. Until nexttime, LET'S RAISE OUR COIQ.

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