Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode · 2 years ago

Bridging the Gap Between Academia and Entrepreneurship in Evidence-Based Digital Health w/Dr. Kate Wolin

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Many healthcare innovators build amazing technology but struggle with adoption and engagement. What can healthcare entrepreneurs learn from academia to solve this problem? Why is it so important to understand the business models in healthcare innovation?

 

On today’s show, we’re talking to Dr. Kate Wolin, the CEO and co-founder of ScaleDown, the one-of-a-kind digital behavioral health innovation that successfully eliminated the “graveyard” drawer of digital fitness devices, attracted around 145,000 users to the platform, and was acquired by Anthem Health - Blue Shield in November 2018.

 

Dr. Wolin shares the lessons she’s learned while switching lanes from academia to entrepreneurship, and the power of starting with an underserved demographic.



3 Things We Learned

 

How to cut through the noise and competition in healthcare innovation

The best way to rise above all the noise and competition in healthcare innovation is evidence and published work. This de-risks the investment for potential partners which makes it easier to go to market.

 

The unique strategy Dr. Wolin and her team implemented

ScaleDown managed to reach people no one else was reaching and people who hadn’t had success with existing models. Nothing makes a stronger business case than starting from the underserved, hard-to-reach markets. It helps the idea of going to the easy-to-reach markets make more sense to investors and partners.

 

The value of building relationships with academics

As a healthcare innovator, you don’t have to become a world-class scientist, you just need to find one and work with them. Invest in building relationships with academics. They can offer the insight and evidence you need to make commercialization easier.

 

95% of innovations brought to market fail to reach an adequate level of customer acceptance and profitability, but there are steps innovators can take to increase the chances of success. Working with scientists to build evidence for your innovation is key, along with paying attention to the innovations that have found success in academic science, and understanding the business model and product-market fit in healthcare. Ultimately, it’s all about reducing risk for investors and perfecting the user experience around ease of use.


Guest Bio-


Dr. Kate Wolin is a behavioral scientist, epidemiologist, and entrepreneur. She is the CEO and co-founder of Scale Down, a digital behavioral health innovation. Go to https://www.linkedin.com/in/kate-wolin/ to connect with her and follow @DrKateWolin on Twitter.

Welcome to Coiq and first of its kindvideo program about health, innovators, earlie doctors and influencers andtheiar stories about writing the roller poster of Health Care and ovation. I'myour host doctor, Roxy Founder of Legacy, DNA marketing group and it'stime to raise our COIQ we're back with another interestingepisode with Dr Kate Wolling. She is the CEO and Co founder of scale down adigital behavioral health innovation that has successfully eliminated all ofthe fitness devices in the graveyard drawer and was successfully sold by toanthem an in November of last year. Welcome to the showkate! Thank you. So I would like to have you start off byjust giving the audience a little bit of background information about you andwhat you do to just kick us off sure. So I started my career as anatademcmedical center researcher, so Broe Mi Grans and got funded to runstudies largely looking at the role oflifestyle, behaviors and chronic disease prevention and chronic diseasemanagement. So when I started in the field a long time ago and had a lot lessgreat hair, we did that through face deface encounters throughgroup book shops. We gave people binders full of papers. We would supplement that withtelephonic support and overtime is as digital became, more prominent and moreaccessible started, moving into using digital strategy, so obviously early on,that could be just an expansion of the role of theteleponic coaching evolving into using the web into using the televhone Ino,more scalable way through Isar and then obviously into text messaging and theopportunity to use ass, and the thing that I noticed over timein that space was that a lot of these interventions that had been developedby some of my savorite colleagues and peers in the field was that theseprograms would be found to work in a clinical trial they would get published,and that was kind of the end of the roage. And I found that reallypersonally, just satisfying my own work, but also sort of just frustrating. As ascientist, F courte. Our goal is to create things that work, but that thenmove oun and really help people and so start a kind of paying moreastention to the scaleability and realize that sort of these these worlds,if te commercial, particular on digital and academic, Wer, existing sort of inparallel and disconnected from each other and wanted to find a way to tobridge them and so much much longer. storymade short, some of my favorite colleagues had justfinished a pleniful trial of an intermention for weight management thatthey thought had. scaleability consontal and I t had an norvo skillability, potetial, and so we started incubating that idea that nict andweekends project of you know. How would this concept look if it existed in thereal world and I'm sort of really from the ground ut built that over some very late nights and verytired people, and ultimately that became scale down,and so when it reached a point of really being a viable business. I leftmy acadetic job and became the C of the company and grew it over the theintervening. Few years until we met the wonderful folk city of them and andthey took it off our hats, so so what was it like for you? Writingthis crazy Ra ride of roller coaster? Health, CARRENOVATION! You know the interesting thing about itis there are so many you know as much...

...as I sort of now for my time, drawingdistinctions between academia and the commercial world. A lot of the skillsthat I learned as an academic really served me while in the commercial worldyou know so as an academic, we're always doing what we call a pilot yeahthe world would call an MZP and we're doing a lot of testing and iteratingthrough that those whrough quantitative and qualitative research, so you knowdoing focus groups and having conversations with people in thatcommunity, because we do a lot of Communicato research in my rorld youknow it's useability testing and- and so you know, those elements felt veryfamiliar to me. You know, I think one of the thingsthay people don't realize about being an academic researcher, is that you Ihad to fund ninety eight percent of my salary and all of my staff throughgrant. So I spent a lot of time, possliin now and tryinly, a bunch of other peoplethat the work I wanted to do was worth funding and is an academic that youthat's the pureview process at Nih or other funding agencies and again you're. Just like you know,as a as a startout founder who's going to raise capital, we didn't end updoing it scaled out of ut. I had a lot of conversations throughout it. Youknow you're trying to convince someone that your idea, you know, balances that space betweeninnovative enough that you know you are doing something novel and can own somesort of space and not so outlandish and risky thatyou have. You know and you're unlikely to be successful, whatever successfulmeans- and so you know those things were very familiar to me. I would say you know that said there are some cushions andinfastructures and supports the ixes in academia that were not inwise as astartfounderright, so I was Kasha and finance and janitor and everything else, and that was you know its sort of youget really good as academicat being outstanding at your specialty andthat's how you succeed. Ancom you have to get really comfortable as a startupfounder with being good enough at a lot of things but ooback of what your secret sauce and specialty is, and so that I think, wasone of the interesting really interesting parts of the journey for meMM. I don't think I realized that you were raising your own money through grants to support yourinitiatives. Yes, O most most of what you read in your literature is mihfunded in the you know, or you know,equivalent agencies in Canada and and Europe, you know, and it just sold depends onwhich institution you're at. But you know the extent to which someone issupported by the institution versus supported by grants and there's a wyrange indpends, how much teaching responsibilities you have and that'sEnsor, but most research that comes side of back Ogenia is is fundedthrough a per review proses and then it also asasyo another purby process toget published in the literature andso o. You know it really is a a level ofscrutiny that I place a high level of value on and really is why I think weshould pay attention to the innovations that have been found to be successfulin in academic science as really being a great way to pointindustry in directions that are worth going in right, because you know, as anexample we've been you know. Just last week was at the society behavoralmedicine, which is the place or folks who do behav ior change research to toconvene you know just you know, thousands ofyou know abstracts and sessions and information of peoples, testingquestions an being able to answer some...

...of the very questions that I know.Entrepreneurs are struggling with in their product development and valueproposition lifecycle. You know these answers are out there in a lot of cases.You know people have spent thirty years understanding. You know what works forweight, loss and Selfmonitoran and for strategies. There's a lot to be learnedhat. You don't have to go reinvent the wheel and there's flets still left toMei right and then that's the the flip side of it is you know, academicinerventions are often done. Ind a you know, couple hundred people for a largestudy and one of the things I found and the scale dhown experience was. Youknow there are things that you don't. I doubt don't work in your product, yourdot work, how you intend Ed until you start getting thousands of users, and so that's been fun me to now goback, and I had thei really great experience of talking to someremarkable doctral students a couple weeks ago about you know some of thosethings that you only learn when you start working at scale y. Ah, atradeoffs you have to make right because you know sometimes you have toyou know you have to go with eighty percent to the effect, because itallows you to ne to reach. You know tnx number of people and right coices. I think you unknowingly just endorsedmy peer reviewed article on what strategies health innovators use tocommercialize their innovation. Thank you for that OOne. So what were you thinking? As you werecontemplating the decision between staying in academia, which sounds likewhere you were for most of your career to moving into this world ofentrepreneurship? What was running through your mind, scalability and impact really ORT ofyouknow it was a total unknown. For me, you know: I'd literally, my first jobout of college was working on research trials and NIH findit work at anacademic, medical centur. Ev really thought I would do anything else, but I had the really unique andwonderful experience of getting invited to go on a national television show andtalk about the research, Thet Link, Ob city and cancer risk, and you know, was really excited to youknow as a scientest rate. You want to get good information out there and Ican write all the papers in the world, but a national television show lands inthe living room of a lot of people and get into information was a reallywonderful opportunity and I was really excited about it and dtoros shows not too bad. Itdepends. We ask these days yeah, you know, that's that you know the Uppos at orvent right the opportunity to present good science to a lot of PAS, awonderful one- and I you N W nothing but butly things to say about thatopportunity. And- and of course you know, my parentswere thrilled about this right because for the first time they could actuallyexplain to people what I did in some way shape or form, and so the episode,Air and Mi my parents had friends over for like a vieuing Pardo, that'sawesome, lovely and you know I mean it's really a gift to have parents whoare so supportive, and you know my dad called me outafterwards and said I didn't know a be Tibe caused cancer and it was you know, sor this woment ofDi Down like thisis one I've been doing for the ers like aead. You know andoutr this this moment of you know I wouldn'tjust feelt, becauseI wanted to help people and make them healthy and have an impact, and am Ihaving the impact I want to have and thought I was havingif my own dad doesn't know that, there's a link between the two things Ispend most of my time. Thinking about rig right. You know- and so I reallysort of pushed me to think about how...

...you know really that fundamentaltradeoff I could spend my career an doing these studies to refine thisquestion in groups of a couple hundred people and at the time I left academia, I just wrapped up being at this- lead investigator at oneof the sites of a multisite, large clinical trial that was examining therole of weight loss in preventing breast cancer recurrence and mortalityand women who've been diagnosed with preast cancer like I can't get. Thereare many wonderful and worthy causes, an questions to ask it, and thatcertainly rigte very high for me right because you Kno prementting, O cancerecurrence of preventing death are fundamentally what I fond in Faile todo, and you know Wan e sort of thouht. Okay,like you, we had you know several hundred people go through thisstudy and benefit from our intervention, which was affected and added to theliterature. But a that's kind of like is as big as it gets. It's O, you do ada hand full of times over your career and and that's great and in it you know.If I had that been my entire career, I certainly you know, would not have feltlike. I didn't add something in my time on Erse, but you know the OPPORTU NY and thenturn around and say. Okay, you know at the scale down we reached, you knowtens of thousands. You know aactually well over a hundred thousand people. You know in our very short time ofoperating thiss. You know that is just impacted, a different scale and thosepeople we KDON'T, they may not have been. You know, facing a cancerrecurrence and it's just sort of everything is about sort of. How do Iwake up each day and feel like the thing I'm going to go work on matter inthe world? That's the great thing about health.CARONTIA PRENEURS is thet. That's the question they wake up every day,wanting to answeris. How do we do something that matters in this worldyeah? So as you thought about what entrepreneurship was going to be likeright when you're at that? That crossroad right, what didn't I know,how yeah? What did you think it was going to be, and then how was itdifferent? I thought it was going to be a failureright because a Dang scientist as well- and you know I looked at the numbers-I'm like Wel, no startup fail and healthcare is really hard and I justsort of was like well, I you know- and so I didn't want to do it for thelongest time right. I sort of knew. I wanted to do something and I wasstruggling with it and I would come home and I would just be like I'm sofrustrated. Like is what I'm doing matters and my husband who, thank God,it's not in healthcare. It was like just go. Do something right an hefamily comes from a long line, efsoute to our risk takers in outors, and- andyou know it- he was just sort of like just go. Do it already and Isi, butwhat is thes Sa Right? Lik, just you know, just I I mean really it's funnyto be an OCTOPEORI'm say that you're not a risktaker, but I'm not am very,very calculated in the risks I take. You know. Ultimately he was hisresponsewas just like so what you know if it fails you'll do something elselike sow up, stop talking about it, go, do it and I really am like a veryaction oranted person, and so I don't think I ever could have done itwithout without any that had to make a big difference. Yeah I mean it's justunconspor and then the other side of it is you kno. I launched scale down with two wonderful,remarkable, outstanding colleagues, and so you know I knew I was going intothis with people who really got the science and got what we were trying todo, and one of my two CO finders had previously launched to start up had a verysuccessful ascit and is just you know: He drove droves that whole strategy andexecution, and so he knew what he was doing. So, even though I was going tobe the person day today, I knew I had...

...this great combination of people whounderstood outer crenership and people understood the science behind me and sothat made taking the leap easier, H, yeah I mean you're. So right, you know,commercializein an innovation and in the industry is really difficult. It'seven more so in healthcare. There's this stat that really wrapped all of mydoctoral work that ninety five percent of innovations brought to market failedto reach an adequate level of customer acceptance or profitability, and- andso really that's actually. The whole premise for this show is to beg able toshare stories like yours to be able to help more people be successful. So sohow did you break the odds Ari think about it? Is You know whatyou know we had? I have plenty of conversations along the way of talkingto people help your space. I we were in weight management right. Som Populationis overweighter obese. You kows probably easier to list conditions thatobecity is not related to then to list the MIRIAOR. It is- and I remember sitting down with anexecutive that a payer- and you know- and in is it person was justyou know, lovely in being, you know kind as can be and very transparent,right tat in our SRUPRENEURS. Sometimes the hardest thing to get is and know.You're just kind of left, dangling, yeah and- and this personc have said tome like locate like Olesity, is a huge problem. You know no pon intended, weget it, we believe it, but you know it is not the problem. We're trying tosolve right now, like the thing that is driving our financial situation isreadmissione yeah, you know, and then I had you know similar conversation withwith someone else who said you know you know what look like we know. This is aproblem for our members, but the RAI for weight lost in the you know,economic models and thank you, Ara frankle scene for doing that workbecause it's really great t at we have these academics, who do this greatscience yeah, you know happens it around twenty four months, maybe latertwent, four to thirty six and the average time that someone is in ourplan is eighteen to twenty four months, so we're not going to realize the Roithat comes from investing in weight loss. So, while we know it's a problemlike it's not going to drive enough on the financial side for us and likethat's, the really like interesting thing is that people are people are outthere: Solving N, real problems, Andno Moch, enors, but figuring out, like the businessmodel and the PAT of market fit yeah, t e hard part, and now it's like you knowthat to me is interesting. Tension O having come out of Acadenia isacademics. Don't have to think about that they don't have to figure outWHO's going to pay for this, and where does it fit within like the landscapeand it's actually fascinating how many people? Don't you really don'tunderstand the business bottles theyre in healthcare like they're, bizarreright when those an people, the if you're, not getting your your healthcare coverage from medicat or Medicare you're, getting it from a SelfinsureengPoyer? In most cases- and you know, people are no O. No, I have. I HaveBlue Cross Clu Shiel, your employeris, paying that you know it's so ritinganset of things I someone who had spent all of these years, osfensivly inhealth care, that all of that was a learning per for me. yely understandthat the incentives and the business decisions that go into deciding thatsomething is worth spending time on, and not just that. I guess that'sbetter Wi saing it that, because there's an opportunity cost to whereyou sind your Tesorn, that it's worth this is worth doing over the otherthings that I couldn't be ing the priority and you know l. So I love totell you that, like I had it all figured out when I quit my job andwants to start up and don't tell my dad, I didn't ICA just think I think ait was evencrazier. You know you know I friendly...

...says I shouldn't call it luck, becauseit was more than that, but an opportunity presented itself and wewere position to take advantage of it and and that apportunity was a uniqueone and that we were offered the opportunity to work with apharmaceutical company as whatie now, woul call ik a beyond thepill or behavioral wrap around solution and I'll be honest like when we weresketching out the idea for this product that that was a business model.Opportunty was not on my Redar at all, but when they call we answered- and youknow, went down that path, and so I think you know there is something to seeing that an opportunity exists inbeing prepared to pursue it uhh. So you so you mentioned the pharmaceuticalcompany. So how did that lead to the the byout by anthem in not directly? So you know it allowed us to really build a product that executedwell et scale, so it was a really unique partnership. They they took achance on us, I think, is maybe maybe starting to become morecommon, but certainly was not at the time we executed that deal and we're very collaborative right. Soyou know there were kinks in in they thought you know. I remember theconversation still to Thi Day so clearly, because the woman on theirmarketing team was just a blast to work with, and I remember you know Kim sayto me: You know this is a newbusiness model for us. We think we're probablygoing to babe sending ten hsand people in the first year right and Thi's, astartup, your life right right on we won and then you know turns out Kim isphenomenal, Lat, her job and there there're stills, Ame Marketn Ho crushedit and they sent us ten hosand perk people in t e First Three Months: Oh mygosh right and D and a you know, and we were on the phone like every coupledays like how we'e going to navigate this. Like you know, what are the wayswe can like? We just need the Patiente to have a great experience so right.What are you going to do and what are we going to do and it was you know,Buzlyn collaboration, and I remember just one day you know they were likewell, you know like we so nowe've got this issue and like this is greatbecause it means people are using it and they're buying it. This is a greatproblem to have and she just was whatever one stop saying that is stilla problem. Rightthisjus, I mean you a unique experience, but you know thatmeant that we found all of the bugs in what we had known, really quickly, yeahigurated and figured out. You know like this is not a solution that can besolved with people, and you have that many users on your platform. We've gota reengineer. This feature an this function. You ow in into that allowed us toreally gather a lot of data on what was working very very quickly, and so youknow we had that partnership and that really put us in a position to have awell tested both in academic research. That was foundational to what we youknow our approach and then in the execution, and so when we ended up then getting introduced to anthem about youknow, maybe could we work together and partner with some of the telephoniccoaches that they had and were trying to solve? You know it was, I think it drisked forAntho that partnership that ultimately became. You know the the acquisition.You know a lot of legitimacy. Incredibility was established with thatpartnership. Yeah exactly you know just because that partnershould gave us. You know evidence of being able toexecute a scale. So no scale now was a to God connected scale and put adigital health software solution. On top of it- and you know, we understoodthe logistics of Scales and had you...

...know, tested different scale models,and how do you deliver them an patting on Lord people and how does it work ifyou live in rural Alabama versus downtown Chicago and P to workdifferently, and does it matter? If someone has you know this cell phoneservice provider versus this cullphone service provider, and- and you know, Ithink that that I think my hapopisis would be you know- it gave themconfidence that this was something they could roll roll out to their verydiverse and broad febership face. So so there's a lot of innovators thathave amazing technology that really struggle with adoption and engagement.It itsoud. You know- and you know, to hear your story with over a hundredalmost a hundred and fifty housand users. What was the? What was the big decisionthat was made or was it you know this partnership or was there something elseto it? You know it's funny. We built something that from theoutside looks incredibly simple, and that was by design now, of course,behind the scenes. It was not incredibly simple, but there was no aptscale down. Was a text message face program, and that was my design,because it meant that we could reach anyon. You know you didn't you know atthe time he ik COMN smarto adoption continues to rise, but at the time,particularly in the certain spocie demographic groups, it me Wul. Itdidn't have that penetration and even among you know, people whohave a smartphone there's still not a great penetration of willingness to useAPS and willingness to use APS regularly, and so the challengeofcourse with messaging. Through Assis, I have to Oth in Tha to get the message or I have to agree without knowingwhat's coming my way to have messaging, and so you know, we made a consciouschoice to build this whole platform through text messaging and that metSoks to had a lit phone and still engage with our program, which is youknow, and because, when we ask people to text back, we designed it that thepast you know the answers they gave back to spilly ton with, like a Flipso,keep at rein, Oanlon sent. Okay. You know we used a smart scale that wasa cellular CIP, so you most people know like connected devices, but you knowfor folks wo. We are in the space right like you could have a blue tooth, ourwifie chip or you could have a selularship and it costs more F, O Dou,a celularship, and it's a little bit more, a complicated back and legisticsystem and setup. But what we found was we were trying to reach a populationhat had a pretty diverse set of experiences, interest and trust ofdigital health, and we were about when we were working in a space where peopleneed to have a high degree of self efficacy t to be successful, Yep, and so, if ittakes me twenty minutes to pair the device that you have sent me to myaccount to have my first positive engagement with you. I do not feel sitset up for success and that is frustrating and not a great userexperience, showin really different. When you use a sellyour scale, you canactually pair the scale to the user's account before it leads the warehouse.So our users would get the scale in the mail they would move in. The box. Takethe scale out of the box step on the scale and get a tax message, no OI. Sofor people who are you know not familiar with technology or don'tfeel competent with technology, that is an incredibly fule experience, and so,when we looked at our data, what we actually found is that older adultswere just as successful as those in the...

...like the you know: Twenty to thirtyyear old, like digital generation, you know so that things like that, like,I didn't necessarily anticipate what happened. We really delighted to see inour data, and I think that allows you to walk into someone like an them andsay you know. This is not just for your millennials that are on your plan, likeYeser, for everything and that make you know that derisks theinvestment forTham, so was that a strategic decision that you and yourpartners and in the team, you know commercialization decision that youmade that the user experience as it relates to that ease of use wassomething that was a real top priority for you all. It was, and I think, evensome ways that probably comes out of the fact at that our founding team haveall spent our careers working in a lot of medically underserve populations,and so you know R ourtake is always sort of like look it's it's easy tohelp healthy, wellsee and white people do things, but you know my you K W all of us, but particularlymy one cots onder, really desoted his entire career to reaching people thatno one else is reaching yeah are not successful with traditional programsand so that ideas sort of I you can succeed with the hard to reach. You know, then you build like back theplace to start and build. I G, I think you know the difference and that'sprobably a really fundamental difference between what gets built bySomyou know, academics and what gets built in the commercial space, becauseyou know sometimes what happens H, commercial spaces. Someone has a greatexperience individually and they say this is what worked for me and I'mgoingto gi the whole product, an business around it and they find thosefirst, five users right. It's that crossing thechasm issue. You find thosefirst five early adoptors and you can't get the next FDEEP IT'. I think that'sdifferent than taking some some concepts in the work and theexperiences that come from working and underserf populations and saying youknow this is what works there, and now I'm going to offer it to be easy toreach people yeah. That's a really interesting approach, but you know myeah, that's really interesting! So so there's this explosion of innovationtaking place in healthcare right. Obviously we all. We all know that, and so one of the things that I hearhealth innovators talk about is there's so much noise right, there's so muchinnovation, there's so much change and opportunity. How do I rise above thenoise? So so you know I posed that question to you. How did you rise abovethe noise evidence? You tour farmup partners found us becauseof the published work that that my colleagues had done, and I know their market research had toldthem that that would be valuable. I was surprised and impressed by howimportant and how valuable that was in the marketplace. Initially, their sales team was notgoing out and talking about us in our science yeah and ultimately like theycame back and ttheir sales people. You know, there's all kinds of regulationsaround the pharmaceutical industry when I have a deep appreciation for nowhaving had that partnership and their patients with educating me about it,but Yo ultimately like ther, their team was taking shrink, RAPP PDS of some ofthe science that our team had done. UHA. You know around the foundationalconcepts behind our product Yep and going in and saying like, Hey Dak likeyou might not know that daily Wayng is a really affective weight loss strategy.Here's the science behind daily waying,...

...you know when you use our drug, yourmembers get access to a daily wayg program right and like Inan. It was you know. Just I think like that is youknow te Geta. I get the first suitablecompany a lot of credit for valuing the behangiers science as Musio the drugyeah, a lot of money, an Dru Aabsolutely, you know t, but theyreally. You know, I think it is. You know it's not, and that washappening like well before Jim Madira, O the Ama started talking about digitalsnake oil. Well, for you know, the digial therapeutic rout existed withthe FDA, and so you know to me that just says, like evidence based digital health is notgoing away right like it is it's just going to become more important and Ithink you know that doesn't always have to mean a randomized clinical trial, but I do think theyre. There is a skepticism howthe cepticism about theclaims that people make around disial health ite meen to be investigated,because you think it's particularly like in the mental health space. Youknow if someone is using an ad, you know, there's a not there's a there'ssort of this tradeoff right like they may be, using that Abat, the expense ofgoing to see a psychologist or a psychiatrist meand. While I love theidea of Dijo Olt being able to provide reach, you know if, if they're someoneis using something that does not work in place of something we know does Yep,you know, there's a risk there, and so I think evidence is what helps People drisk. So let me ask you this. So a lot of the health innovators that Iwork with know that they need to do a pilotbecause they need to have some type of data to demonstrate safety and efficacy.How would you compare what the average health innovators doing with a pilot ortwo pilots with a Clik with the potential buyer versus what you weredoing in academia? Would you say that that was really the same, that they'rekind of pulling the same data or is maybe part of your success that you hadmore credibility because your researchers, or that you kind of knewwhat data to collect or how to present the data help me understand that I think the probably are healthinnovators who are doing high quality trials. I think the challenge, ifyou're on the bioside right, if you put yourself in the seat of apharmaceutical company, looking at partnerships or a payer, you know I need to be able to trustthat you haven't manipulated data and the upside of this pure view processthat our team had gone through is that there there wasn't a dudication of thepocess and the quality, and so I think the you know you know take another company that I Ihave a lot of admiration. For you know a mot of health took an EVIDENC paceprotocol. They turned it into a digital solution that they made scalable, butthen they went through the process of T. I mean they really havet done aremarkable job of investing in scientists and science yeah puttingtheir data out there. For I ma hinkthat's the difference. I think it'sdifferent for me to walk in with a sales deck that says you know. Thirty.Five percent of people were successful in this outcome, right an or impumright- and I don't know if that's a sample of five Orsi, I thousand you know. I think it's really differentto say you know here's. You know we did this study andactually you know open yourself up to...

...some scrupiny of the data in adifferent way and- and I beie thats kind of this spectrum that we're inright now and digital health is like that. That's the inten of the digitaltherapy to review process right is there's an idjudication of the methodsfor data collection and analysis that gives people confidence. I think in thequestion, is you know for things that have a low risk profile? What's thenext, you know where is that sit in the spectrum mm yeah? So so the last question I have for yoube before we wrap it up and then open it up to the live QNA and if anyone isout there listening- and you want to be a part of that- just email me at DrRoxy Roxy at Dr Roxycom and you can get on our invite list. The last questionthat I have is there are so many health care innovators that are in thetrenches right now. What advice do you give them? Academics are your friend, you knowthere there is you know I was we just published a paper on sort ofthe history and future of digital health with some colleagues and Iposted about it on my linkd inner, twitter or something, and then someonewo kinme was like you Kn W. I don't. I can't get behind the paywall to getaccess ig, because so many journal Articles Frie to pay well- and I waslike- oh just you know, if you ever want to keeper, just ask someone likehappy to send it to you right and everyone else I know is too yeah likeaademics are actually like, largely accessible, particularly if you wantthem to go on about their science O lookat. I our whole time right noit. So I think it's. If you want to know about their sciencetheyre, you know almost I mean no one I know is thes unwilling to share a paperanswer of question. You know and I think also they'reavailable for collaboration a lot. You Nowo, certainly everyone's timevaluable. Don't ask them to give you your time for free. Just like yeah,activ friends, don't ask to start up to give you things for Frea, because theydon't have any money yeah, but you know, I think there are a lotmore opportunities for collaboration between the two right. You don't haveto become a world class scientist as a startupfander. You just need to signdone to work with right. Like you know, literally I you know, l Er this weekset down and start youv chatted with the startup about like how do you bringthe avral science into what you are doing in your digital health program?You know they don't have the ability to hire someone like me full time, but I'happy to come in and talk with you about what works. That's brilliant, butis absolutely brilliant oxit. So I want to give you one opportunity to beforewe wrap up to say what projects are you working on right now and then how canpeople reach you and actually think I'm most excited about comes out of beingwith the anademic community in the siedeof community last week? Is there are a lot of folks who aretraining in those academic programs that I came out like when I came out ofwho want to connect winh industry and they don't they don't know how rightlike they? Their advisor can tell them how to write an academic CV and how towrite an Mi grant, but you know they're looking for you know digital healthcompanies who want to bring this skill set in, and I know there are so manydigital health companies that want to bring that skill Seden, and so you know,I'm really excited about trying to figure out a way to bridge that andbring those communities together, because iy think they would both justgain such benefit from it. So I'm really excited about about trying to dosome work in that space. That would be immensely valuable. Do it. So how can our audience get a hold ofyou if they have any additional questions? Oh I'm on the twitter Aa Act,Dr Kate Wollen. I'm on Linkdin I'm very easy to find. Okay, excellent! Well,thank you. So much for being a part of the show, my pleasure.

What's the difference between watchingand commercializing a health care Novation, many people will watch a newproduct. Few will commercialize it to learn the difference between launchand commercialization and to watch past episodes of the show head to our videoshow page at Dr Roxycom. Thank so much for watching and listening to the showyou can subscribe to the latest episodes on your favorite podcast, APPlike apple podcasts and spotify, or subscribe to the video episodes on ourYoutube Channel, no matter the platform just search Coyq with Dr Roxy untilnext time. LET'S RAISE OUR COIQ.

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