Health Innovators
Health Innovators

Episode 103 · 9 months ago

How to Connect the Dots Through Storytelling w/ Bettina Hein

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Commercialization can be tricky. Try to commercialize across different business spaces and it gets a bit trickier - but it sure isn’t impossible.

Just ask Bettina Hein, our latest guest and “shark” from the Swiss version of Shark Tank (“Höhle der Löwen Schweiz”).

She’s successfully commercialized companies in the automotive and video marketing spaces, and has recently started another venture in the healthcare space - and is successful at doing it all!

If commercialization is proving more difficult than you expected, then you’re going to want to tune in to this episode.

Come hear this multi-market and multi-country success outline some of her winning tips and strategies on how to successfully tell your story and commercialize your solution!

Here are the show highlights:

  • Applying lessons learned outside healthcare in the healthcare setting (6:41)
  • The importance of value proving your product (13:23)
  • Find and utilize the verticals across marketing and sales (20:13)
  • Why you really need to use video (25:12)
  • This is how you open the doorway to conversations (29:16)
  • How to keep your edge while piloting your solution (39:02)

Guest Bio

Bettina Hein is the CEO and Founder of digital health startup juli Health.

A serial software entrepreneur, she has built technology companies in both Europe and the United States including Boston based Pixability, and co-founded SVOX, a Swiss-based speech technology company which was acquired by Nuance Communications.

The recipient of numerous awards and recognitions, Bettina holds two software patents, is the co-author of “Video Marketing for Dummies” and is a “shark” on the Swiss version of Shark Tank called “Höhle der Löwen Schweiz.”

She also likes to “pay it forward” so, if you’d like to reach out to her, you can contact Bettina on her website at Juli.co, via email at B@Juli.co, on LinkedIn at Bettina Hein or you can book some time to speak with her at calendly.com/BettinaHein.

You're listening to health innovators, a podcast and video show about the leaders, influencers and early adoptors who are shaping the future of healthcare. I'm your host, Dr Roxy Movie. Welcome back health innovators. On today's episode I'm sitting down with Bettina hid who is the CEO and founder of Julie. Welcome to the show, Bettina. Thank you for having me on. Dr Roxy, it is so good to have you here today. We've got a shark people, a Swish Shark. So start off by telling our audience a little bit about your background and, of course, what do I mean by shark? You'll have to explain that, and then what you've been innovating these days. Sure. So I am a Lifelong Tech Entrepreneur. Julie it's my current company. It's a chronic condition care platform, but I've done software companies my entire career and all of them have been around taking a large data sets, applying artificial intelligence to those two optimize for certain outcome. So I've done that literally. I'm German, but I've spent eighteen years of my life in the US, fifteen in Switzerland, so I'm kind of a back and forth across the Atlantic and my husband is Swiss. So I am, have been for three years now, a judge on the Swiss version of Shark tank. That's terrific. And so tell us a little bit about that. What's that experience like? HMM, so it behind the scenes. Answer. Yeah, so it's really interesting. So I never liked watching the US version. Watched it, but it always hit way close to home, way too close to home. It was like I would be screaming at the TV saying no, no, don't give your company away for so little money, don't do this, no, they're taking it. That A job. You and so so and also I found, you know, that this sort of combatd thing between the sharks, like it's like. HMM. So I moved back to Switzerland after twelve years in the Boston area. I was on a midnight train from Zurich back to where I live in sank gallen, where at least lived part of the year, and somebody asked me, no, kidding, got on the train. Yeah, somebody else. You. Yeah, and I I've learned as an entrepreneur to always say yes at the outset. You know, if there's opportunity opens up for you, figure out what it is. Don't first like say no, no, no, I don't think I can do this. Say Yes, you can always then and decide this is not for me. So I was like yeah, sure, I'll talk to them, though I was pretty nervous about it. You know, I'm just a regular person. I'm not usually on TV and I was also skeptical a little bit about the format. But long behold, three weeks later I had a GIG ON TV and I was on my way to becoming a reality TV show star in Switzerland. Oh man, that is terrific. So what are two things that maybe you just that you learned that have influenced your entrepreneurial journey since you've been on...

...the show? I've sort of seen the other side of the table. I see, you know, what others are pitching to you and I see, I can atually see see through some of the things that they're saying, where I'm like, you know, that's what I said when I was fund raising, and let me go a little bit more into detail. What I also learned is that, you know, it's not really that combative. It's obviously edited to look a little bit like that, but it's it's not. I mean between the sharks. We have a really good rapport and we are like, you know, this this little club now and we see each other. You know, this is only eight days of shooting per year, a whole season. So so you know, this is like a hobby for me. It's not, it's not a fulltime thing. I'm the CEO, Julie, but I take out a week out of my year and and we do this show. That's terrific. That's awesome. Sounds like a lot of fun. What an adventure and how they're indipitous. That just happened to be on the train at the right time. I know, right. If you told me like three years ago that I would ever be that, yeah, yeah, that's a totally random and outrageous idea, then that you certainly can't plan and you can't make happen. No, no, no, but again, it's it's so much fun to like see behind the scenes of how these things work, how a TV studio works, how you know what what the different roles are. And you know, I'm used to calling the shots. You know, I'm a CEO. What I've learned on the show, whatever you do is, you know, whole still is one of the things that you have to do. Hold still and say, do whatever the producer says. Then you'll find, you know, like, you know, if they say like move a little bit like this or, you know, your face like that and yeah, yeah, and then, you know, we just do as they say. Obviously I don't. We don't act out of script, because I could do that. I'm not an actor. I say what I want to say. But you know, the thing has there's a recipe book to this. It's a licensed format from Sony, and so there's, you know, that's it's for me it's super interesting because it's like totally not like my day job. So let's talk about your day job. So you have launched three different software technology companies. So had they all been in healthcare? No, actually they have not. My first company was a text to speech software company. So these days that's ubiquitous. But I co founded that company twenty years ago and we thought that the application for text to speech software would be reading out directory assistance numbers. M where you did not like that was that was what we were thinking about. But you know, it turned out that our software ended up in most luxury cars in the world, even sort of midrange cars in the world and and all android phones. So I founded that company out of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology and Switzerland. We raised eight...

...million dollars for it and I sold it for a hundred and twenty five million to nuance communications, which a lot of people in the healthcare industry know about for the dictation and other things. So that was my first one. The second one was I then moved to Boston and I found it a company out of might which was in advertising technology. So what in that company is called pixability. I'm still on the board there, and pixability uses artificial intelligence to optimize video advertising, specifically on Youtube and connected TV. HMM. So that's so. Those are my prior companies and what I experienced sort of as my my journey within healthcare, within with my own health, bought me to think about how could I apply what I've learned in these other disciplines to healthcare, because I have to redeem myself. I am the black sheep in the family. My father's a physician, my uncle's a physician, my aunt is my grandmother was a pharmacist, my mom's of pharmacist. I have two, only two girl cousins, their pediatric nurse and a physical therapist. So my brother became a banker and I became a tech entrepreneur. We are both, you know, still have to work for us our salvation, and this is, oh my goodness, that's so funny. It's interesting how often I hear that. You know, happened to have guests on the show that are the black sheet of sheep of the family doing something in business and healthcare instead of being a medical doctor or something like that. So what have you learned from those previous companies that you are applying to Julie and that commercialization process that you think are some lessons learned along the way that would be valuable to share with our audience today? Well, maybe I should explain a little bit what truly does, because then I can I can put that together. So what Julie does is that we are a chronic condition care platform. We help people manage their chronic conditions. When somebody gets diagnosed with a chronic condition, they're often, if it's a complex chronic condition, they are trying to find there on a quest right. They're trying to find out how can I manage this? This is what, for example, why I got into this. I ten years ago, my daughter was born prematurely and that was such a shock to me that I couldn't sleep afterwards for a year and a half and I didn't know what. I googled it. I went to my doctor and he said, well, your breastfeeding. I can't give you anything. Are you stressed at work? As I said, yeah, you know, I'm the CEO of the Bar Company and I have a premature child, and he's like, Oh, yeah, that's it, like great, so I started wearing this headband monitor for sleep and and I hacked myself back to health and since then I've you know, I was then, retrospectively, I probably had what healthcare provid wriders have told me I had an atypical post part of depression, which doesn't seem like that crazy, but people aren't helping me. So they're, you know, they're more, many more people that have this kind of journey. And I started going on this quantified self using data for to manage your health...

...quest and what we do at Julie as we bring in five different types of data. We bring in everything from your smartphone, everything from wearables and connected devices like you watch scale blood pressure, cuff etc. We bring an environmental data like whether air pollution, pollen counts, sunlight ours, humidity, all of that on a very hyperlocal level, so you know, not the Greater Orlando area, but exactly where you are, and then we tie and eh our data and then we tie that all together with patient reported data. So we have this APP. Anybody can download it. That's listening. It's in the APP store. We have really a great reviews and ratings. So check us out and you will see, then that we chat with you every single day and we ask you just a few questions. Right now we cover asthma, depression by polar disorder, migrain and chronic pain, and we're getting lots of requests to expand that, mostly to autoimmune conditions and things like fiber mileage on other are things like that. So that's what the commercialization journey gone for you in the last year and a half. Yeah, so we're we're only a year and a half old and we launched into the APP store six months ago. What we're so that's and we've had six thousand people download our APP and of on boarded them and are seeing great retention there. We're not selling anything in the APP store right now. What we're doing is we're proving out our product and we are also right now running a clinical trial to validate that who will pay for it will be a risk bearing entity. We are now starting to find pilots within self insured employers, value based care organizations, aceos and payers themselves. So that's that's where we're going with our commercialization and yeah, we're off to the races and that regard, we had to build this patient facing part first and now we're moving to be to be part of the business. And Yeah, we've set up some some interesting things in order to ramp up pilots or quickly. So I'm curious, you know, for our audience it's there anything that you learned in the previous two companies that you're doing differently here, and then also taken into consideration that, you know, healthcare, commercializing something in healthcare so innovative is is really different than there's some similarities, but there's also a lot of nuance differences that can create some unusual challenges or obstacles for us to overcome in healthcare, as you just described with the multisided market. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, what I learned in previous companies is obviously the technical side, right. I learned that. I also learned that company culture plays a huge role, no matter what you're commercializing. If your team isn't really jelling, you have to work on that. I'm super privileged that, you know, at the stage of my career,...

I can really find great people ball also in healthcare and our team, which is a first for me as a tech, tech entrepreneur, fifty percent of our team is female or people of Color. Okay, so that's that's really that's some that's something that's really important. And then the other part of the commercialization side is in my previous companies, all of and all of them, it was essentially having big entities to sell to. There is a betb playbook and I'm happy to tell you more about that betb sales playbook that I am teaching my team. I'm hiring people that know how to do that, that you can execute and, for example, me being on your show is part of that. Is Part of that playbook. But you know, things like, for the last company, I wrote a book video marketing for dummies. You know, they're different ways to build up credibility and build up relationships that are really important in order to get to that sale. And is that something that you've done in the other companies or is that something that you're doing in Julie, you know, through commercializing Julie, because you're in hell health care? Help me understand that a little bit. So I did it any other companies. I first company sold into the automotive industry, and that was also multisided, because you have to essentially you have to sell to someone that doesn't specify which product you know you're getting there. They have to buy. You have to work with the called Om manufacture in an automotive so let's say afford or Mercedes. You have to work with them to figure out, with their predevelopment departments. You have to figure out what they want and help them, you know, understand what you're doing, and then they have to tell their first your suppliers to ourfp something that's hopefully like you want, and then you have to sell to them. Right. So so that's something there with fixability and video marketing, selling into advertising, you have to sell to a brand but also to their agency. So you have these different influence factors and and so I'm sort of taking those learnings and applying them to healthcare, obviously with the help of commercial people that have sold into healthcare all of their careers, but the the sales mechanisms are not unlike in other industries. As you know, I've learned in the and the last two years. I haven't been just, you know, thinking about this for yeah, since we started the company and also, you know, I've learned from that my family how how these things work. Yeah, and I'm digging into this because I think that there are a lot of business practices, commercialization strategies and tactics that probably haven't been deployed in healthcare for a long time because the way healthcare ecosystem was constructed is that you could skip over all of those best practices and still build a very viable and successful, profitable company and healthcare. That has changed over the last few years. So you're starting to see more and more folks, whether it's them themselves as the CEO of the company, or the talent that they're bringing...

...in that are outside of healthcare, that have this expertise to augment the people that are understanding the nuances and intricacies of healthcare, but also paired with I don't want to just have team members that are a hundred percent experience with healthcare, because then we're missing a big part of what has been successful in other verticals. And so what you're describing is kind of this melding of the two, which is which is wonderful. Yeah, I mean there's so many things that that you can apply in a lot of verticals. One of them, I don't know if you want any examples for your audience. Yeah. So, so one of them is called inbound marketing, which you can apply. So saales and marketing are are similar things, right, so you have to the important is to bring them together at the right point. They're not the same, but they have to definitely work together. So one thing that is called inbound marketing is to generate interest with people so that they come to you. Well, how do you do that? You create content that people like, like your show, like writing a book. One of the things that we did a lot in my last company was take of the data points that we produced, that we took in we produced reports, and we took the sort of high level summary of those reports to the media and said this is something you know for your background information or if you are writing a piece here. We have some some information for you here. And then we would get quoted in the Wall Street Journal or The New York Times or add age and things like that, be because they saw we bought brought something valuable to the table. Yeah, and then we use those reports and took them, you know, wrote our newsletters about them, sent them to our clients and said, okay, you can book a meeting with us to see how this applies to you, things like that. And and then we would track all of that in our marketing automation as systems and our CRM's and, you know, then go over to what's called ABM, account based marketing. We would find out, you know, what are the big target accounts and who has interacted with us before during in our webinars and, you know, with on our website, downloaded white papers, studies, etc. And then engage them proactively with other marketing things. I can tell you a lot more about sales as well, but I think that this this going together of marketing and sales is is really key. And you know, you have to establish yourself as somebody that's really credible in the industry by showing that and produced and proving it with with data right. That's that's one of the key learnings that I've had in my career on that. Hey, it's Dr Roxy here with a quick break from the conversation. Are you trying to figure out what moves you need to make to survive and thrive in the new covid economy? I want every health innovator to find their most viable and profitable pivot strategy, which is why I created the covid proof your business pivot kit. The pivot kit is a step by step framework that helps you find your best pivot strategy. It walks you through six categories you need to examine for a three hundred and sixty degree view of your business. I call them the six critical pivot lenses. As you make your way through this comprehensive kit, you'll be armed with the tools,...

...tips and strategies you need to make sure you can pivot with speed without missing out on critical details and opportunities. Learn more at legacy DNACOM backslash kit. So Bettina, I think that is a perfect example because in most other industries, content, marketing, ABM, inbound are things that organizations are investing in. All of these digital marketing activities right, whereas in healthcare as a whole, right, and not necessarily saying this is true for every healthcare company that's out there. But traditionally healthcare companies are reliant on outside sales teams, boots on the ground, which can be extremely expensive, and trade shows. And you had this mass, I don't want to say exodus. It's the opposite of the exodus with Covid with a lot of those traditional channels of selling and marketing closed up. Yet a lot healthcare brands that were in business for ten, twenty years that we're going. You know what? I think we need to start investing into and digital marketing. And it's like, oh my gosh, it's two thousand and twenty or two thousand and twenty one. Yes, you do. And so there's you know, if you put a thousand companies together at different stages of the growth of the company it you'd be hard pressed to even find a company that has a director of marketing or a CMO that's part of their core team. You'll see very robust sales programs and sales teams, but there's also this missing element of marketing in that commercialization process and just relying on sales to develop all the awareness, all the appeal right just owning that entire funnel from into end. And so I love the example that you just provided because it really shines a spotlight on the role that marketing can play in helping to augment the sales teams so they don't have to work as hard, they can work smarter and create that synergy between the two. So those were really perfect examples. I'm happy to share that knowledge. Yes, so I want to talk about video marketing because you had a company that was a video marketing company and this again kind of just goes handinhand with what we're talking about. You know, I can't tell you how many clients that we have where they are like, nobody within our company wants to get on video. We want to be able to build something from nothing, from scratch. We want to be able to tell the whole world about what we have to offer and how awesome it is, but none of us are, you know, comfortable being on camera. And I'm like, well then you need to hire someone that's comfortable to get on camera or you need to do some type of coaching and training that you know, there's the role that video plays in that commercialization process is something that I don't think should be overlooked. So you know, what do you think? Well, you know, that's obviously what I spend a decade line doing, is telling people you've got to use video to because it's a very engaging, emotional medium. You have to tell your story. People want to hear why you're doing this. They want to hear your backstory, and I think that's where you have to start getting people comfortable. I think if people think of it is like I have to be an actor, they get their like dears of the headline. I can't do that. And they did that. You know, they read off like some sort of text. Now don't have them do that, right, or interview them and say, you know, m Dr so and so, you I know that...

...you are doing this out of your passion. Tell me what brought you to dermatology, and then they'll say, you know, whatever. You know, as a as a child, I had this terrible contact dermatitis and you know, and I couldn't have or I had an allergy and I could have a dog, and you know that really that really brought me to this, for example, right, that's something people want to hear. Humans want to connect on a on a human basis. You want they want to hear from this, and I think what what you have to do there is is connect with something where people are already comfortable. Like are they already comfortable showing you their medical device and talking about it? Right? Are they like getting what are these people that that want to tell their story? What brings out the sparkle in their eyes? And you know, if you have the right video team, you can capture those kinds of things. And the good thing is these days, right with being it on Youtube, doesn't have to be super polished, right. You know you, you know this. You. When I started my company, we figured out my video marketing company, fixability, we were sending out what was at that point called flip cameras, phones, enough cameras back then. We sent those out and said people, Film Yourself, and then what we did is we edited that together and put it into something where people were like wow, I can't believe from what I film myself, you made it into this. Right, I think only to have just a little bit of confidence in the magic of what editors and, you know, videographers and camera people do. They will make you good, look good, they will they want you to succeed, and I think that that's, you know, hiring someone never brings out like you know, you can have a voice actor doing stuff, and sometimes that's fine, right to have to have a voiceover and all of that, but if you want to tell the authentic story, people want to hear it straight from the Horse's mouth. Yeah, yeah, and I'm I definitely am seeing the the tide turn and we've made a lot of progress over the last few years. There's still a long way to go. As we're thinking about the role that video plays, and I love what you said to about that candidness, candidness or authenticity, because because for the longest time, even when healthcare brands were adopting video, it was still a bunch of talking heads that were in blue suits and it was just like wow, I mean it's just so boring, I guess you could say, just boring and no personality and none of that authentic story that you just described. So I think that the tick tock videos, the youtube style videos, this more of like I don't have to have it all put together, I can just be human and being able to allow that humanity to connect with other humans. I think you know, as you're saying, can be extremely powerful and it can bring you into conversations that you might usually not be in. So, you know, I do a lot of video and when people made me, they like, Oh, I watch the video about you and you know, I loved what you said there. And that's that's immediately a contact point, right, where people like, oh, they're excited to talk to that person that they've already seen in the video. And you know, if you know, I bet the same thing happens to you. Right, they've watched, watched you before and they're like, Oh my God, I get to be even person. You know, it's it's just you feel.

People tell me they feel like they already know me. Yeah, yeah, definitely, which is time. Yeah, and that's that's and, and that's so cool, right, that you can do that with this medium. Also, putting back my analytical hat, yeah, you can also look at who watches that, these videos what are you can tag them on Youtube with different keywords. You can optimize them, you can put the advertising in front of specific people, right, you can say, okay, I want people that are searching for this, and you can do that absolutely for BTP applications, right, people think, oh well, that's just kellogs or height ord advertising. Know, this really works as well for people that are looking for chronic condition care platforms, because what is your buyers journey? You have to look at that and how did they inform themselves? Well, News Flash, as you said, it's no longer just at trade shows. Yeah, that is actually kind of the last stage, right, that they may if their trade show and they've seen all your stuff, that they may talk to you or they see you there and then later do all the research. But it's just one of probably a dozen touch points that you need with your audience to connect. So figure out, for example, at Julie, what we're doing on the consumer side is we're even powering our product development by figuring out which search terms people do people find us through. What is the most successful thing? I obviously have given my background. I have a CMO on board who ran her own advertising agency and sold it to become part of Julie. So that's how she does product development. She's also our our head of product and you can really understand things more if you have this involvement, because what you do is you get feedback. We get feedback on a daily basis from our users. We get people writing us in and I know that doesn't work for every product out there, but for digital health companies it's definitely something that you need to know if you want adherence, you know, to an engagement with your product. That the leak to your users every single day. There is no alternative. I am a huge proponent. I call it cocreation. I have a cocreation framework that I developed to do just that and to me that fits into the culture piece that you talked about, where you know it's not a traditional marketing research project where you pull a focus group together and you this one one moment in time and where you're like hey, guys, what do you guys? What do you think about this, and your gut gathering that feedback. But it is absolutely what you just described. It's part of the DNA of your organization. You're continuously staying connected to the customer. This communication stream that is just continuous for the life of the company. It doesn't stop and ands you you close the company down, because you know you're always wanting to get feedback, even if it's what you're going to innovate next, every step of the way. So I want to touch on something else here before we start to wrap up. I have this is a really important topic in healthcare right piloting is something that most healthcare organizations have to have a piloting strategy in their commercialization process and making sure that there's their solutions are safe and that there's...

...some efficacy behind the solutions that they're putting out into the market place. And so when you and I were talking before, you had mentioned about, you know, how do we do more pilots? How do we do more pilots quickly? So just describe some of the challenges that are inherent to our current ecosystem right now when it comes to piloting that you guys have encountered. Well, it all takes quite a long time, right. You have to get by in from a lot of people, and you also see right now there's a proliferation of solutions out there. So you have to cut through the noise, which we're doing with, for example, our clinical trial strategy, where we said, okay, we can, we've built into our software this very flexible clinical trial framework and that's, you know, how we can show efficacy. And we have all these users ourselves, right, so we're not just dependent on the piloting strategy with with sites that are external and luckily one of our co founders, as a professor at University College London, and he you know, was able to, with our whole team, bring a study, in a study design through their IRB within five months. So we have actually only a few months after we launched our application. Three months afterwards we were able to launch our first clinical trial with actually with depression and asthma being two arms of our study. What we're doing next with that is that we're creating something called pilot in the box, and what that means is we can very quickly scale up an additional ourct very quickly a trial, like within a day. We can spin that up in our software because we created this super flexible framework where you can say I want to turn on these five features in the sort of active ingredient type of the trial, we want to turn those off the other so that's something where we can adapt to the entity that wants to trial. We can also do new conditions very quickly. We have the template of our registered study. If the study design, we can show you know how it's, for example, hip a compliant GDP. Are Compliant. All of those data things and that kind of shortcut the process of getting something started, because here's our recipe, you know, will help you get that through your committees, through your process relatively quickly. Yeah, so, so is it the so what you were describing there is is are those some of the strategies to kind of expand the pilot program within an existing pilot partner, or are you also looking to be able to get more pilots outside of that, where you might have seventeen different pilot partner companies and a couple of different ones running in each one of those organizations? Yeah, it's to do it and obviously you can expand that quickly, but no, the idea is to do that with multiple with multiple entities and just, you know, having them be able to customize very easily what they want to do. But you know, we have the template. We can ramp this up very quickly employ it. You know, it's it's very easy, it's online. Your trial population can...

...download this. There's really no delay to doing that. So I talked a lot about piloting and some of those challenges that you've described that you know, almost every innovator is encountering, because it's just inherent to the healthcare ecosystem and there's there's a number of different that things that can be deployed to kind of help with that. A lot of times when I'M HEARING PEOPLE DESCRIBE THEIR PILOT SCENARIO, it's that someone said Yes to the pilot. So they're just and I'm not saying this is you by anythings, I'm just talking to the audience in general. Of you know, I got really excited that someone said yes because I need to get these pilots started and and so just kind of acquiescing a lot of that control or negotiation in the pilot agreement up front of what is the duration of the pilot? Who are going to be the champions of the pilot? We are going to be the milestones and the KPI's across that kind of fast track that, because the I hear this all the time, is these pilots that just languish, that the champion left or priorities changed within the organization. And you know, so now I've got six pilots running, which should be a phenomenal thing for our company. But but you know, there two three years and I still don't have access to the data. I don't really know exactly how this is performing. I don't know if they think that's so far. We're two years in and this is successful. We just need six more months left, or if you know, there's just so much ambiguity amongst that pilot program and so many confounding factors and moving pieces that it can actually seem as though that it is the milestone to success and it can be the milestone to failure, where companies are going under because they just have exhausted all of their resources and have no revenue coming in, but they got six pilots going Beth by pilot right, yes, yes, death by pilot, I call it pilot purgatory, is a real, real thing. And so there's this you know, how many pilots should you have? I talked to someone not too long ago. We had seventeen pilots go going on, and I want to say that they maybe had like twenty five people within their company, and I thought, how in the world are you going to have any of those pilots become successful if you've got twenty five people within your company but seventeen pilots going on? Who's WHO's at the helm? They're making sure that that successful. And he was like exactly. I'm going crazy trying to manage it all. There's there's the best strategy that I've heard. This is from my my mentor and Advisor, Kristen Bell does, who's the CEO be. Well, she, smart woman that she is, never did any unpaid pilots. She never even piloted. She told her customers like look, if you want to do this, let's do a commercial like agreement. Well, do it with favorable terms for you, but we're doing this in a and a paid way. So she had the guts to do that. I completely agree, especially because you have so many innovation hubs that are just like I mean, they're they're taking all applicants. So you know, the in the pilot partner could have a hundred pilots going on. There's no steak in the game, there's no skin, no skin in the game, there's no there's no, no responsibility on their part to make sure that you're sick. Pilot is a successful. They're just churning pilots in and out right, just getting more and more testing these different ideas. So I yes, absolutely, I...

...say, you know, come up with a strategy that is pilot to profit and negotiating those sales up front, having some type of payment mechanism in place. It could be completely upfront, where it's like you described, where it's a full commercial agreement, or it could be something to wear there are certain milestones that are met and there's some kind of transaction that takes place. Or if X, Y and Z happen at the end of this pilot, then there's some kind of commercial transaction on the back end of it, but negotiating that upfront rather than waiting down down the road. So I think, Bettina, I really you're brilliant. You've had so much success under your belt. We could talk for hours and hours about Julie and the amazing things that you guys are doing and all of the wisdom that you could share with our audience, but we have rent out of time. So is there anything else that you would want to share with our listeners before we wrap up? Sure easy way to contact me is to go to Julie DOTCO our website or email me at be the first letter by first thing, be a truly dot CEO. Also, one thing that I always offer up to everybody that's listening to these shows is that I have a weekly entrepreneurial office hour where I just offer up two half hour slots to anybody that is doing something entrepreneurly in the space and talk to them and, you know, try to solve problems together. I've been doing those for twenty years, so there are a lot of things that I've I've learned and this is my community service of paying it forward. So you people can sign up at calnecom Bettina Hine and I'm excited to meet some of the members of your audience. And if any breast bearing entities are listening to this, contact me for a pilot with Julie in cute highlights to profit with Julie. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for listening. I know you're busy working to bring your life changing innovation to market and I value your time and attention. To get the latest episodes on your mobile device, automatically subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast APP like apple podcast, spotify and stitcher. Thank you for listening and I appreciate everyone who shared the show with friends and colleague. See You on the next episode of Health Innovators.

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